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On July 03 2013 11:23 Sponkz wrote:
Hydra is so bad, i've seen people get it on Riven, Lee and alike and everytime I'm wondering why. Not like you'll ever benefit from that massive aoe-potential the item has. BT is much more smooth and gives stats that are more reason-able than hydra which basicly needs the enemy team to pile up in order to be effective.
Uh, it might be better but how in the hell is it more smooth? Hydra builds out of tons of tiny pieces so no matter what you can always buy when you recall, BF Sword is a huge FUCK YOU to anyone trying to build BT when they aren't winning lane.
Lee with Hydra is ridiculous BTW, as soon as he gets that you can't possibly trade with him, he heals from 1/4 to full in like a few attacks on the minions.
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On July 03 2013 11:35 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:27 zer0das wrote:
Hydra is amazing on Lee. It lets you clear waves so fast by comboing it with his e, not to mention the increased burst on his overall combo. It's not bad on Renekton either but you usually only have room for brutalizer/blck cleaver. You can easily wave-clear with 2 points in E and a fully stacked BT. The overall increased burst shouldn't be higher single-target wise so it's only a better choice when enemies pile up like mad, but when does that happen?
2 points in e and a bloodthirster is only 195 damage plus whatever else bonus AD you have. That's not even enough for a caster minion.
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I have some numbers on the last page of the Rengar thread on a spreadsheet for Hydra and Bork and some other AD items but they only pertain to AD Rengar's triple Q damage.
I found Hydra and BotrK to be best.
If I got to choose, I'd often get BotrK before Hydra because I like the slow and heal more, but often I start with a rejuv bead on jungle Rengar so I can skip Spirit items and just go straight to Hydra. If I start building rejuv bead then I'm not going to sell it. The other alternative is to just start with no big items and just get a ton of wards and potions -> botrk :/ Depends how much your team needs wards.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtekUM_l-4IzdFZJeUdJeEctSG1IZUQ5QXd6S01mZHc&usp=sharing
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On July 03 2013 11:15 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Hydra heals/lifesteals in its AoE. It's massive regen in clumps.
Of course, it requires clumping, but you can heal extremely quickly off a minion wave. Hydra uses half your lifesteal when applying the aoe damage/lifesteal. The difference in terms of how fast you heal between having a BT and a Hydra is minute. Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:12 Gahlo wrote:
Keep in mind that you can Hydra active to cancel other animations, like Renekton W. In these cases you lose less time from the active.
Tiamat might be slightly more gold than BF sword, but it also isn't a 1 stop shop. A lot of champions start with bead. Even if you subtract the cost of 1 bead, it's still more expensive than BF sword for less stats. If you're rushing Tiamat in lane, well...you're not gonna have a good time. Most champions that want Tiamat will rush a Bork first anyways. By the time they finish Bork and start working on big item #2 they have 0 problems farming up 1.5k gold. Also, building Tiamat piecemeal is also very slot inefficient. That will take up 4 slots at most and that means you only have 1 free slot for pots/wards (assuming you didn't skip boots).
I never go into lane thinking "I'm gonna rush Tiamat." It's a situation based thing where I only do it if it is advantageous to me. It only takes up 4 slots if you need to buy both beads individually. You can easily go from bead(from start)/pickaxe/longsword to Tiamat with under 500 gold, under 1k if you jump from bead/pickaxe.
On July 03 2013 11:23 Sponkz wrote:
Hydra is so bad, i've seen people get it on Riven, Lee and alike and everytime I'm wondering why. Not like you'll ever benefit from that massive aoe-potential the item has. BT is much more smooth and gives stats that are more reason-able than hydra which basicly needs the enemy team to pile up in order to be effective.
I've gotten it situationally on Riven. The reason her damage is high in the first place is because of her passive, which requires her to auto attack. It gives her a lot of splitpushing power by letting her clear fast while not using her mobility cds to do so.
How is BT smooth? It has one of the most expensive components in the game. It's not difficult to hit at least 1 person with Hydra's AOE.
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On July 03 2013 11:40 Ketara wrote:
I'm surprised that people think Hydra isn't as good as BT.
I mean, it's pretty straightforward.
Hydra gives you 75 AD and 12% lifesteal for 3300g.
BT gives you 100 AD and 12% lifesteal for 3200g.
Hydra also has a ton of HP regen on it which ehh, lets say that's worth 100g just to make things easy.
So we're talking 25 AD for the cleave passive and active.
Assuming that you're some sort of melee burst damage champion (Zed, Lee, Khazix, Pantheon, what have you), and assuming that you're going to be using the Cleave active during your burst combo, it should be fairly obvious that Hydra is better than BT. The Hydra active is 100% of your AD. So even if your burst combo has a 500% AD ratio, BT would only > Hydra if your total AD was less than 125. This is fairly preposterous.
Completely ignoring the cleave passive altogether and focusing purely on the cleave active, Hydra is pretty much straight up better than BT for burst for the same cost.
Similarly, Tiamat is just straight up better than a BF Sword for burst, and only costs a little bit more. Considering that a lot of tops can (arguably should) open with a Rejuv bead anyway, it's only about 150g more and provides sustain that the BF Sword does not.
There's 2 reason to get hydra; 1 for burst damage; it's 1 extra AA worth of damage when you jump on their ass; which can be the difference between life and death.
2nd, cuz dat split push. Hydra IS the fastest splitpush item in the game.
Also; Hydra on Lee Sin is god mode; dunno what you're talking about. You're one of the slipperiest champions in the game. You just E+hydra active; entire wave is gone; then you jump away with style.
hydra on Riven might not be optimal; but the active right after stun can add a lot of damage.
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I don't play Rengar but I imagine the nice thing about Hydra on Rengar would be you can push while sitting on 4 stacks 24/7
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On July 03 2013 11:39 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:38 Slusher wrote:
I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't. It's aoe+huge attack speed steroid. It's not a terrible waveclear. Besides, Wukong's role isn't to splitpush/afk farm. His role is to farm up his BC and just nonstop teamfight. The Hydra passive is pointless on Wukong. The way you described how you play Wukong is basically almost every single top laner wants to play and it doesn't require Tiamat or Hydra to do so.
So Voyboy says he really likes Hydra's synergy with top lane Lee, in that it helps him wave clear well, and the burst is nice when combined with his E. Do you think he's playing sub-optimally and should get BT instead, and why?
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I'm pretty sure that the active on Hydra gives Riven an extra charge on her passive.
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Thats really not that big of a deal, it's pretty random to actually spend all of your stacks, still have them in melee range and both parties are still alive.
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On July 03 2013 11:48 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:39 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 11:38 Slusher wrote:
I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't. It's aoe+huge attack speed steroid. It's not a terrible waveclear. Besides, Wukong's role isn't to splitpush/afk farm. His role is to farm up his BC and just nonstop teamfight. The Hydra passive is pointless on Wukong. The way you described how you play Wukong is basically almost every single top laner wants to play and it doesn't require Tiamat or Hydra to do so. So Voyboy says he really likes Hydra's synergy with top lane Lee, in that it helps him wave clear well, and the burst is nice when combined with his E. Do you think he's playing sub-optimally and should get BT instead, and why?
On top lane lee sin it's actually really good. Lee sin is all about mobility and play making; especially in midgame. If you can clear out a wave in 2 auto attacks; that give you an extra 10-15 seconds of roaming time.
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On July 03 2013 11:48 Cheap0 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the active on Hydra gives Riven an extra charge on her passive.
It does.
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Also the cool thing about Hydra is it applies all you lifesteal to AOE, not just the steal from hydra. So If you are Lee with BT and Hydra, you apply 30% LS in AOE, plus 25% from W. This makes you a absolute beast in 1v2 or more if you can hit multiple enemies with the AOE, as you will steal huge amounts of health, also if you fight in a creep wave.
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There's no denying that Hydra increases your burst. The question is whether or not it's better than the alternatives. In the most cases, it's not.
When you're playing a non-stomp game, you're not going to have all the gold in the world to buy everything you want. You have to prioritize. When you're on a burst champion, Bork is going to be better than Hydra for burst almost all the time. Bork active is 15% of the enemy's max health, while Hydra active is 1 auto attack. Unless one of your auto attacks are doing >15% of the target's max HP, which won't be until late game when you get 300+ AD, Bork is going to outperform Hydra in burst. Bork also has the slow/speed effect which helps you kill your target. Hydra makes you stand in place for however long your auto animation is.
After Bork, you're probably going to want some armor pen because at that point everyone is going to start having significant amounts of armor, meaning armor pen is going to outscale raw AD. Which is when you're going to want BC/LW.
So basically you're going to be getting Hydra after Bork+BC/LW, at which point this discussion is rather moot. After that point, any of the top tier assassins will be able to one-shot any squishy target and will have a decently hard time combo-ing a tanky target regardless if you build BT or Hydra. But let's say you do want to fight a tanky target. At this point, BT is arguably better than Hydra since, generally speaking more lifesteal+more raw AD for autos means you do better in sustained fights.
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On July 03 2013 11:50 sob3k wrote:
Also the cool thing about Hydra is it applies all you lifesteal to AOE, not just the steal from hydra. So If you are Lee with BT and Hydra, you apply 30% LS in AOE, plus 25% from W. This makes you a absolute beast in 1v2 or more if you can hit multiple enemies with the AOE, as you will steal huge amounts of health, also if you fight in a creep wave.
The lifesteal you get off of the aoe is halved btw.On July 03 2013 11:48 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:39 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 11:38 Slusher wrote:
I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't. It's aoe+huge attack speed steroid. It's not a terrible waveclear. Besides, Wukong's role isn't to splitpush/afk farm. His role is to farm up his BC and just nonstop teamfight. The Hydra passive is pointless on Wukong. The way you described how you play Wukong is basically almost every single top laner wants to play and it doesn't require Tiamat or Hydra to do so. So Voyboy says he really likes Hydra's synergy with top lane Lee, in that it helps him wave clear well, and the burst is nice when combined with his E. Do you think he's playing sub-optimally and should get BT instead, and why?
Personally, I think Lee is the exception when it comes to getting Hydra. Assassin Lee doesn't utilize Bork's active as well, while his steroid makes Hydra active extremely smooth. He's also the only assassin in the game that doesn't have innate instant wave clear. Hydra is the arguably the best wave clear item in the game. Assassins need wave clear to free them up to roam so Lee building Hydra is pretty good.
On other champs like Zed, who already have immense waveclear, the waveclear potential of Hydra is wasted. Those champs also use Bork much more effectively and thus would rather grab Bork than Hydra.
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I think you seriously undervalue the pushing ability of Hydra.
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On July 03 2013 11:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:48 Zdrastochye wrote:On July 03 2013 11:39 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 11:38 Slusher wrote:
I usually go Hydra + BC, I don't know where you are getting his E being good at waveclear tho, it really isn't. It's aoe+huge attack speed steroid. It's not a terrible waveclear. Besides, Wukong's role isn't to splitpush/afk farm. His role is to farm up his BC and just nonstop teamfight. The Hydra passive is pointless on Wukong. The way you described how you play Wukong is basically almost every single top laner wants to play and it doesn't require Tiamat or Hydra to do so. So Voyboy says he really likes Hydra's synergy with top lane Lee, in that it helps him wave clear well, and the burst is nice when combined with his E. Do you think he's playing sub-optimally and should get BT instead, and why? On top lane lee sin it's actually really good. Lee sin is all about mobility and play making; especially in midgame. If you can clear out a wave in 2 auto attacks; that give you an extra 10-15 seconds of roaming time.
Well right, I agree with you totally, but Ryuu seems to have a more informed decision than I do, so I'm curious if he rates the burst of botrk or BT over Hydra on top lane Lee. I don't play him either way, this is more for sating my own knowledge thirst.
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On July 03 2013 11:52 wei2coolman wrote:
I think you seriously undervalue the pushing ability of Hydra.
Hydra has immense pushing ability. I agree with you that it's the premier pushing item. I'm jsut saying that most champions that would build Hydra already have insane pushing power and simply don't need that extra pushing capability. When you already one-shot a wave as Zed, you really don't need Hydra.
This is also why I said that I find Lee to be an exception to my Hydra is sub-optimal rule since Lee's innate waveclear isn't that great.
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On July 03 2013 11:51 Ryuu314 wrote:
There's no denying that Hydra increases your burst. The question is whether or not it's better than the alternatives. In the most cases, it's not.
When you're playing a non-stomp game, you're not going to have all the gold in the world to buy everything you want. You have to prioritize. When you're on a burst champion, Bork is going to be better than Hydra for burst almost all the time. Bork active is 15% of the enemy's max health, while Hydra active is 1 auto attack. Unless one of your auto attacks are doing >15% of the target's max HP, which won't be until late game when you get 300+ AD, Bork is going to outperform Hydra in burst. Bork also has the slow/speed effect which helps you kill your target. Hydra makes you stand in place for however long your auto animation is.
After Bork, you're probably going to want some armor pen because at that point everyone is going to start having significant amounts of armor, meaning armor pen is going to outscale raw AD. Which is when you're going to want BC/LW.
So basically you're going to be getting Hydra after Bork+BC/LW, at which point this discussion is rather moot. After that point, any of the top tier assassins will be able to one-shot any squishy target and will have a decently hard time combo-ing a tanky target regardless if you build BT or Hydra. But let's say you do want to fight a tanky target. At this point, BT is arguably better than Hydra since, generally speaking more lifesteal+more raw AD for autos means you do better in sustained fights.
Some champs don't auto much but have high AD ratios. I guess Talon falls in this category... Maybe Zed but he goes against my point that Hydra can be better than Bork.
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On July 03 2013 11:41 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 11:35 Sponkz wrote:On July 03 2013 11:27 zer0das wrote:
Hydra is amazing on Lee. It lets you clear waves so fast by comboing it with his e, not to mention the increased burst on his overall combo. It's not bad on Renekton either but you usually only have room for brutalizer/blck cleaver. You can easily wave-clear with 2 points in E and a fully stacked BT. The overall increased burst shouldn't be higher single-target wise so it's only a better choice when enemies pile up like mad, but when does that happen? 2 points in e and a bloodthirster is only 195 damage plus whatever else bonus AD you have. That's not even enough for a caster minion.
Use E once. Hit 1 caster minion, hit another caster minion, use E again, hit last caster minion, hit a melee minion. Finish off the last 2 with regular auto's?
Also, by smooth i meant that the components for tiamat is abit off. You can be forced to sit on rejuv+pickaxe or alike which is just something i personally do not prefer. The split-pushing potential for hydra is HUGE, but i've yet to come across someone abusing it to the point where i wanted to try it myself.
Everytime i've seen someone get it in yolo Q, their damage wasn't absurd, stronger than BT or anything alike, which makes me wonder why people consider it a stronger purchase than BT.
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The other thing about BOTRK is that it gives only 25 actual AD for spell scaling purposes, which if you are going to be tossing out a ton of you have to keep in mind.
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EPT
