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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:14 cLutZ wrote: Smash Makes an appearance: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=39373852#post39373852 Pokeball go! | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Spreadsheets.. Npnp | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On July 03 2013 12:50 Ketara wrote: Okay, lets check this out. I'm going to make this really really simple. This combo is 100% AD (ult) + 150% bonus AD (2 shurikens hitting) + 80% bonus AD (E) + 1 auto lets say, for a total of 430% AD. Hydra has 52.5 more AD than BotRK with Living Shadow. It's doing 225.75 more damage in the combo. In order for the BotRK active to do 225.75 damage, the target has to have at least 1500 HP. But wait, lets say for that 3200g, I instead got a Tiamat and a Bilgewater Cutlass. This is totalling me 65 AD and the Bilgewater active. That extra AD + the Bilgewater active is totalling 280.6 more damage in the combo. In order for the BotRK active to do 280.6 damage, the target has to have at least 1875 HP. It is also worth noting that the extra AD on the autoattacks is going to outdamage the BotRK passive effects, and I have completely ignored the Tiamat cleave active. The more autoattacks you get, the worse BotRK is going to be. Unless you are telling me that your early game burst targets have more than 1875 max HP, it appears that the most damage per 3200g for Zed is actually going to be Tiamat+Bilgewater Cutlass. Shock and gasp! PS: Apologies for not using that sexy spreadsheet, I'm doing this in the middle of packing for my trip tomorrow and don't have enough brainpower to use a sexy spreadsheet. SRY SRY SRY I'm pretty sure you can't just add together bonus AD and regular AD like that. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:15 sylverfyre wrote: BT actually has LESS burst than hydra. Hydra's active is an extra 100% AD nuke which works well in lee sin's combo (it even gives flurry!) 25 extra AD of BT is only ~125 damage (pre-mitigation) to Lee's full combo, while the hydra active is ~150-200 damage. Also, it lets you literally instantly clear any size creep wave at basically any point in the game, which opens up a lot more roaming options. I will concede that on AD casters/assassins (rather, anyone who doesn't build an appreciable amount of crit) Hydra should probably replace BT as a lategame offensive item since the active is better than the additional 25 AD and the difference in lifesteal is negligible. However, by the time you get to your 4th big ticket item you're usually looking to pick up some defensive stats and/or the game is already decided. Take Zed for example, most lategame item builds you see on Asian pros are Bork, BC, LW, Boots and then defensive/semi-defensive items. Usually some combination of the following: Randuins, GA, Hex. I suppose if you get to 5~6 items and you really don't need a defensive 4th item you could get Hydra but those situations I feel are somewhat uncommon. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:13 Ryuu314 wrote: I think a decent amount of Asian Zeds actually do get Brutalizer before finishing Bork. Regardless, none of you have addressed my point about itemization priority. On paper, Hydra is a great item. In practice, it's not optimal in many cases with a few exceptions because of the fact that it's just so awkward to build. Tiamat is not a very good item and a large chunk of Hydra's cost is from Tiamat. If you get rush Tiamat/Hydra, it's sub-optimal in a lot of cases because other items are better at that stage in the game. You can't really get it 2nd or 3rd because you need armor pen. Also, Tiamat rushing likely hurts you more than anything because if you rush Tiamat first item the cleave passive isn't going to be significant enough for you to completely shove the wave to their tower. It'll more likely result in you being in an awkward position right outside their tower if they know how to freeze the lane properly. That's the same reason why people don't typically rush BT first on solo laners. The original point I was making before we went off on this tirade was that in a direct BT vs. Hydra comparison, on bursty melees Hydra is basically straight up better. In terms of ease of building, Hydra is also better than BT. That doesn't mean either of them are easy or sensible to rush, just that of the two Hydra is superior. The reason why BotRK feels so smooth to rush build wise is not so much because BotRK is so good, but because for 1400g Bilgewater Cutlass is completely broken OP ridiculous. In terms of Zed, I'd say going Bilgewater -> Brutalizer -> BotRK -> BC/LW would be inferior to going Bilgewater -> Brutalizer -> BC/LW -> BotRK, but I am not going to math that out. Basically, the Bilgewater active is already doing 100 damage, already slowing, and finishing the BotRK is expensive. Getting your armor pen 1800 gold faster and then opting to finish BotRK when you're in the late game and most targets have more than 2k HP I think would be ideal. The faster you get your armor pen the more effective it tends to be. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
Ha. And Smash if you read this, just take away his true damage. True damage is dumb. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:19 upperbound wrote: I'm pretty sure you can't just add together bonus AD and regular AD like that. You can't. The math is also flawed because the ult proc doesn't amplify itself, which Ketara's calculations seem to do. I math'd it out myself and the hp break point difference is only by ~100 hp though. Am I the only one who finds it funny how the first response to Smash's post lists "gap closer" and "defined weakness" as both things Olaf needs? Gap closer (outside of axes+ghost) is Olaf's defined weakness imo... | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The AD vs. bonus AD issue doesn't matter, because the only AD in the calculation is the extra bonus AD from Hydra/whatever, which counts in both. It would be different if I'd done a more complete calculation with Zeds base AD and runes and masteries and blah blah blah, but I didn't need to, because these things are going to be giving the exact same amount of damage to both groupings regardless. Edit: Or wait, I see what you mean, the extra damage from the extra AD on the initial R hit isn't amplified. That's gonna edge it towards BotRK another 10 damage or so. Somewhat negligable. | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:31 cLutZ wrote: Ha. And Smash if you read this, just take away his true damage. True damage is dumb. very much agreed. The health/cdr stack olaf was just the dumbest thing to both play and watch. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:35 petered wrote: very much agreed. The health/cdr stack olaf was just the dumbest thing to both play and watch. I kinda liked the fact that Olaf is the only champion in the game with a spammable true damage nuke. It makes him unique. Honestly, I think Riot just needs to revert the axe slow diminishing over time nerf, maybe some of the cd nerfs, and he'll be in a good place. | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:35 Ketara wrote: I did not put the amplification on anything, because the amplification is going to be the same regardless, as we already discussed. The AD vs. bonus AD issue doesn't matter, because the only AD in the calculation is the extra bonus AD from Hydra/whatever, which counts in both. It would be different if I'd done a more complete calculation with Zeds base AD and runes and masteries and blah blah blah, but I didn't need to, because these things are going to be giving the exact same amount of damage to both groupings regardless. Edit: Or wait, I see what you mean, the extra damage from the extra AD on the initial R hit isn't amplified. That's gonna edge it towards BotRK another 10 damage or so. Somewhat negligable. Yeah it seemed potentially significant, but after I looked at it again it's only a few damage, so I don't think it undermines your overall point. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:39 Ryuu314 wrote: I kinda liked the fact that Olaf is the only champion in the game with a spammable true damage nuke. It makes him unique. Honestly, I think Riot just needs to revert the axe slow diminishing over time nerf, maybe some of the cd nerfs, and he'll be in a good place. I used to think the same thing. And maybe with Rubbish Shurelias and Nerfed Locket it could work. But, right after S2 champs and after S2 rewards were locked, a friend dared me to play Olaf in 30 straight games. That's when I determined I loved axes, and found E to be rather lame. Maybe its a side-effect of that, but during that run "Spammable True Damage Nuke" really just became "Single Target Nuke" in my mind. And now when I play him it doesn't feel that different from a Khazix or Panth Q. And from the other side, the only difference is building Ruby Crystal/Giants belt instead of Cloth Armor/Chain Vest. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
I don't post on LoL forums. Average IQ/elo too low to get any rational discussion most of the time. But things I would like to keep. - The ability to ghost ulti and hunt people down - Axe pickup. This mechanic was actually cool and really made him a skillful champion to play. IMO take the arpen off his ult, put it on W. The ultimate is strong enough with just the non-cc & resists active, and it stops him from being pathetic without ultimate. Maybe add a second if needed. Move lifesteal&spellvamp% onto passive(.2-.3% missing HP, you put so much sustain into the game anyways). W is now arpen+AD steroid. IMO E is fine. It would need to nuke incredibly hard as a scaling skill to keep the same power level. Q is the problem skill. At the same time it defined olaf's gameplay. A bad olaf would miss an axe or throw it too far through a target and fail to chain axes. The slow was stifling to play against in a long lane when pushed, yet if he missed it, he's a complete sitting duck against ranged champions unless he goes for the axe. My thoughts on how to fix Q. Have axes apply a debuff Hamstrung - Decreases movement speed by 10-15% for a second or so. The hamstrung debuff is independant of the slow, but the next axe that hits in a period of time(probably a second more than the base CD of axes with pickup), the duration and slow stacks, such that the second axe slows for 20-30% for 2 seconds. The debuff stacks up to N times, such that if you chain axes, you can hunt down somebody and kill them. Makes getting hit by one axe not very bad in lane, but if you get hit by multiple, it quickly stacks to a point where you have no choice but to fight. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:50 Slusher wrote: I agree the Axe slow is really bad, I like that his "gap closer" is so much more complex than a point and click, and this nerf just kills it. I think what made Olaf OP before was how he could just have real safe laning phase even against 1v2 using axes to last hit, combined with the fact that he really didn't need real items. Could just buy like Shureylias, Warmogs, Aegis and then do tons of damage while being unkillable anyway. He was too good because he always got to that point of unkillable because no olaf ever needed to buy offensive items to kills AD carries, and because you can't shut him down from becoming too tanky to get off your carry. I think best thing to do is to get rid of his safe farming (either with huge axe mana nerf, or no damaging creeps with it ala Ez W with like increased slow) and to remove a touch of his base damage from his skills and buff his scaling. No one had a problem with his strong trading with E, no one had problem with his ult, its that he was such a safe pick that made him a tip top pick; could always pick olaf and always be able to chase enemy carry out of fight. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On July 03 2013 14:10 Amui wrote: I don't post on LoL forums. Average IQ/elo too low to get any rational discussion most of the time. But things I would like to keep. - The ability to ghost ulti and hunt people down - Axe pickup. This mechanic was actually cool and really made him a skillful champion to play. IMO take the arpen off his ult, put it on W. The ultimate is strong enough with just the non-cc & resists active, and it stops him from being pathetic without ultimate. Maybe add a second if needed. Move lifesteal&spellvamp% onto passive(.2-.3% missing HP, you put so much sustain into the game anyways). W is now arpen+AD steroid. IMO E is fine. It would need to nuke incredibly hard as a scaling skill to keep the same power level. Q is the problem skill. At the same time it defined olaf's gameplay. A bad olaf would miss an axe or throw it too far through a target and fail to chain axes. The slow was stifling to play against in a long lane when pushed, yet if he missed it, he's a complete sitting duck against ranged champions unless he goes for the axe. My thoughts on how to fix Q. Have axes apply a debuff Hamstrung - Decreases movement speed by 10-15% for a second or so. The hamstrung debuff is independant of the slow, but the next axe that hits in a period of time(probably a second more than the base CD of axes with pickup), the duration and slow stacks, such that the second axe slows for 20-30% for 2 seconds. The debuff stacks up to N times, such that if you chain axes, you can hunt down somebody and kill them. Makes getting hit by one axe not very bad in lane, but if you get hit by multiple, it quickly stacks to a point where you have no choice but to fight. Well, if you play Olaf at all right now(or since the changes), the problem is that you can't hit the 2nd axe(except against terrible players), and that is with a slow on axe 1 (that degrades quickly). Basically, Olaf hitting multiple axes is his gameplay, but if they don't slow significantly, the 2nd axe is fairly hard to hit. By they way, the 1st axe is no cakewalk to hit, its a pretty slow skillshot. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On July 03 2013 14:19 cLutZ wrote: Well, if you play Olaf at all right now(or since the changes), the problem is that you can't hit the 2nd axe(except against terrible players), and that is with a slow on axe 1 (that degrades quickly). Basically, Olaf hitting multiple axes is his gameplay, but if they don't slow significantly, the 2nd axe is fairly hard to hit. By they way, the 1st axe is no cakewalk to hit, its a pretty slow skillshot. I put a couple of games in after the nerfs. One of those games I got off to a good start and still felt like I couldn't do anything. I have a ton pre-nerf. The idea is more to have repeated axes stack debuffs so that the target gets easier and easier to hit. Slow%'s and timings can change easily. Mechanics are harder. Getting hit by one shouldn't be the end of the world. CC/zone olaf away from his axe, or dodge the second one. But getting hit by 2 or more in a row should rightfully punish the target heavily and force them to either duel olaf or blow stuff to get away. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On July 03 2013 14:33 Amui wrote: I put a couple of games in after the nerfs. One of those games I got off to a good start and still felt like I couldn't do anything. I have a ton pre-nerf. The idea is more to have repeated axes stack debuffs so that the target gets easier and easier to hit. Slow%'s and timings can change easily. Mechanics are harder. Getting hit by one shouldn't be the end of the world. CC/zone olaf away from his axe, or dodge the second one. But getting hit by 2 or more in a row should rightfully punish the target heavily and force them to either duel olaf or blow stuff to get away. I feel like a stacking damage debuff, instead of slow debuff works better for that purpose. Because, as I stated hitting axes on unslowed, non-idiots, is hard. EDIT: I.E. Prenerf-Slow %, 1st axe = 75% damage, 2nd =100%, 3rd+ = 125% Edit2. The reason I say all this, is because how stupid the current axe hitting system is. Its basically just as easy to dodge as a lux bind, but with probably 10% of the benefit, with the added stipulation that you need to throw it so you can pick it up to use it properly. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Well previously the slow was 24-40% for 2.5 seconds. It could be something like 20/22.5/25/27.5/30% slow for 2.5 seconds base. Slightly worse on the base slow value in return for no decay(decay makes it harder to hit, because acceleration is a bitch). But each additional axe landed could increase the slow by 10-20%. I guess there's also a difference in ideals between what you want on Q and what I want though. I want to be able to stick like glue to somebody if I've successfully landed multiple axes. You want to be able to wreck them. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:50 cLutZ wrote: I used to think the same thing. And maybe with Rubbish Shurelias and Nerfed Locket it could work. But, right after S2 champs and after S2 rewards were locked, a friend dared me to play Olaf in 30 straight games. That's when I determined I loved axes, and found E to be rather lame. Maybe its a side-effect of that, but during that run "Spammable True Damage Nuke" really just became "Single Target Nuke" in my mind. And now when I play him it doesn't feel that different from a Khazix or Panth Q. And from the other side, the only difference is building Ruby Crystal/Giants belt instead of Cloth Armor/Chain Vest. Obviously this means they need to make Axes true damage, and Reckless Swing physical damage. | ||
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