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United States15536 Posts
On March 20 2013 23:41 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 22:58 schmutttt wrote:
Why does Regi never cop any heat? He has been just as bad as chaox (If not worse) for a while now, and is probably only on the team because he owns it. HSGG gets criticised for the exact same thing.... ??? The team usually revolves around Regi who tends to be both the playmaker and the shotcaller for his team. He's a lot stronger in relation to his team than HSGG ...
In recent LCS games, Regi's channeled his occasionally death-causing aggression into Champions who can be as powerful from a distance like Orianna and, mostly, Xerath. It's done pretty well for him overall. I feel like he looks on top of things far more often, especially considering Chaox almost needs MF these days.
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On March 20 2013 23:46 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:41 KissBlade wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 schmutttt wrote:
Why does Regi never cop any heat? He has been just as bad as chaox (If not worse) for a while now, and is probably only on the team because he owns it. HSGG gets criticised for the exact same thing.... ??? The team usually revolves around Regi who tends to be both the playmaker and the shotcaller for his team. He's a lot stronger in relation to his team than HSGG ... In recent LCS games, Regi's channeled his occasionally death-causing aggression into Champions who can be as powerful from a distance like Orianna and, mostly, Xerath. It's done pretty well for him overall. I feel like he looks on top of things far more often, especially considering Chaox almost needs MF these days.
Don't forget that Regi's at least toyed with the idea of retiring a few times, HSGG just shrugs the idea off.
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United States15536 Posts
On March 20 2013 23:48 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:46 AsmodeusXI wrote:On March 20 2013 23:41 KissBlade wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 schmutttt wrote:
Why does Regi never cop any heat? He has been just as bad as chaox (If not worse) for a while now, and is probably only on the team because he owns it. HSGG gets criticised for the exact same thing.... ??? The team usually revolves around Regi who tends to be both the playmaker and the shotcaller for his team. He's a lot stronger in relation to his team than HSGG ... In recent LCS games, Regi's channeled his occasionally death-causing aggression into Champions who can be as powerful from a distance like Orianna and, mostly, Xerath. It's done pretty well for him overall. I feel like he looks on top of things far more often, especially considering Chaox almost needs MF these days. Don't forget that Regi's at least toyed with the idea of retiring a few times, HSGG just shrugs the idea off.
HSGG just fires his parents instead.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I don't really mean that someone has to be diamond or challenger to have good analysis. That person does however, have to have a solid amount of 5s experience. Most of the strategy involved in 5s does not apply to solo queue. But there's a lot of strategy that requires individual skill and fundamentals to execute.
For example, a team puts their duo lane middle, and plans to contest enemy jungler's second buff with their jungler. The prerequisites of this plan are, that everyone is full health and relatively full mana when ready to contest, that the middle lane has to be shoved in, that the jungler can do his first two camps fast enough to contest. If the duo lane is a lot worse individually than the opposing mid laner, the support might for example, get chunked down due to bad positioning during laning, or the jungler might have forgotten to pot up, etc. So then the plan would fail before it even starts because of individual mistakes.
It's unimaginable that someone can just magically bypass all of the experience necessary to successfully analyze a game while knowing perfectly the inner mechanics required to execute strategies. Most, if not all commentators currently, discuss the game at a very basic level. And because of the nature of commentating, that it only allows limited analysis due to time, that the commentators simply can't know what either team is thinking until they do it, the bigger part of the strategy of 5s is often lost upon spectators.
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hotshots hardcore he literally fired his mom from the job after they lost clg.eu.
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being the playmaker on a team in arranged 5s is really difficult, compared to solo q the opportunities are a lot fewer. when you're watching LCS you might be like "oh that guy is so stupid i can't believe it" but when you actually play 5s you realize how small your windows of opportunity are and how much you want to do something and it's very difficult to evaluate what to do in the moment.
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On March 20 2013 23:52 kainzero wrote:
being the playmaker on a team in arranged 5s is really difficult, compared to solo q the opportunities are a lot fewer. when you're watching LCS you might be like "oh that guy is so stupid i can't believe it" but when you actually play 5s you realize how small your windows of opportunity are and how much you want to do something and it's very difficult to evaluate what to do in the moment.
This is correct. I feel like most opinions of fans stems from simply not having any experience of arranged play.
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On March 20 2013 23:44 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:36 phyvo wrote:
So how bad is it that my last hitting plummets to 83/100 (at 10 minutes sharp) when I don't have the benefit of +4 damage to minions on AP mids?
Been practicing my csing and feeling sad panda. If you feel like your CS is lacking I don't know why you wouldn't take butcher over 2% CDR. Especially earlygame, you almost never have the resources to actually use the CDR well enough.
I always wondered what the best thing to do is. It's best if you can learn to CS without needing the butcher mastery, but if butcher picks up an extra 5 CS for you over the game it's worth way more than 2% CDR. Also, in an actual game against a lane opponent, it's even harder to CS and butcher could still help even if you can get 100/100 solo without masteries.
The only AP mid I take no butcher on currently is Ryze, but it's mostly because being at 38% CDR instead of a flat 40% CDR (with max Q and blue/FH) makes me kinda itchy
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Depends what I lane with and against tbh. If im with some sort of sustainy champion or we want to zone, i pick up AD quints and no butcher. If I want more sustain I pick 6% lifesteal on quints and butcher
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 00:09 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:44 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:36 phyvo wrote:
So how bad is it that my last hitting plummets to 83/100 (at 10 minutes sharp) when I don't have the benefit of +4 damage to minions on AP mids?
Been practicing my csing and feeling sad panda. The only AP mid I take no butcher on currently is Ryze, but it's mostly because being at 38% CDR instead of a flat 40% CDR (with max Q and blue/FH) makes me kinda itchy
You should probably get that looked at.
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On March 20 2013 23:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't really mean that someone has to be diamond or challenger to have good analysis. That person does however, have to have a solid amount of 5s experience. Most of the strategy involved in 5s does not apply to solo queue. But there's a lot of strategy that requires individual skill and fundamentals to execute.
For example, a team puts their duo lane middle, and plans to contest enemy jungler's second buff with their jungler. The prerequisites of this plan are, that everyone is full health and relatively full mana when ready to contest, that the middle lane has to be shoved in, that the jungler can do his first two camps fast enough to contest. If the duo lane is a lot worse individually than the opposing mid laner, the support might for example, get chunked down due to bad positioning during laning, or the jungler might have forgotten to pot up, etc. So then the plan would fail before it even starts because of individual mistakes.
It's unimaginable that someone can just magically bypass all of the experience necessary to successfully analyze a game while knowing perfectly the inner mechanics required to execute strategies. Most, if not all commentators currently, discuss the game at a very basic level. And because of the nature of commentating, that it only allows limited analysis due to time, that the commentators simply can't know what either team is thinking until they do it, the bigger part of the strategy of 5s is often lost upon spectators.
So TLDR: you agree that people who lack the ability to actually execute certain strategies could certainly be capable of understanding them, and maybe even inventing them?
See the odd thing here is that your stance has basically been the opposite, but your above proposed scenario reinforces the idea that a 'bad' player might know a strategy they want to implement, but make simple mistakes that prevent it from being used properly that pro players wouldn't.
Oddly enough, the AP Trynd example you used for your argument about how players are too stagnant, was born from the brain of a 'bad'(relative to pros) player. Clearly he saw an exploitable strategy and sought to abuse it. Because he isn't amazing he still managed to fuck it up sometimes and perhaps play it imperfectly, but it was nonetheless universally seen as a very strong strategy with no solid counterplay options.
As far as the coaching thing goes, coaches in pretty much every sport are responsible for strategy as well as 'practice' and mindset coaching. Bill Walsh didn't play pro ball(he was a mediocre college athlete), but he started the greatest offensive revolution in NFL history(until maybe modern day, we'll see how long the spread option lasts as a movement). He wrote his master's thesis on how specific formations effected defenses in the game of football; his mind clearly worked on the game at a level other peoples' didn't, regardless of his lack of expertise on the field itself. Tom Brady's role in the Patriots offense isn't to come up with the plays they run because he has the best mind for the game, it's to use his superior physical and mental gifts ON THE FIELD to successfully run the plays and overarching gameplan someone else tells him to, with leeway for on the fly adjustments(even those adjustments are created by the offensive coordinator, Brady's job is to pick which one best fits the situation).
There are almost certainly examples of coaches who have even less playing experience/expertise who also made amazing contributions to their sport, but I am extremely familiar with Walsh and wanted to use him as an example.
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i still wait for wukong fotm, every champion with armor shred had his 5minutes of fame except for him and wu seems like a very decent top in current meta with sick tf potential.
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On March 21 2013 00:27 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I don't really mean that someone has to be diamond or challenger to have good analysis. That person does however, have to have a solid amount of 5s experience. Most of the strategy involved in 5s does not apply to solo queue. But there's a lot of strategy that requires individual skill and fundamentals to execute.
For example, a team puts their duo lane middle, and plans to contest enemy jungler's second buff with their jungler. The prerequisites of this plan are, that everyone is full health and relatively full mana when ready to contest, that the middle lane has to be shoved in, that the jungler can do his first two camps fast enough to contest. If the duo lane is a lot worse individually than the opposing mid laner, the support might for example, get chunked down due to bad positioning during laning, or the jungler might have forgotten to pot up, etc. So then the plan would fail before it even starts because of individual mistakes.
It's unimaginable that someone can just magically bypass all of the experience necessary to successfully analyze a game while knowing perfectly the inner mechanics required to execute strategies. Most, if not all commentators currently, discuss the game at a very basic level. And because of the nature of commentating, that it only allows limited analysis due to time, that the commentators simply can't know what either team is thinking until they do it, the bigger part of the strategy of 5s is often lost upon spectators. So TLDR: you agree that people who lack the ability to actually execute certain strategies could certainly be capable of understanding them, and maybe even inventing them?
no wtf
On March 21 2013 00:27 red_ wrote:
See the odd thing here is that your stance has basically been the opposite, but your above proposed scenario reinforces the idea that a 'bad' player might know a strategy they want to implement, but make simple mistakes that prevent it from being used properly that pro players wouldn't.
My point is there's more to strategies than just understanding how they're supposed to work, there are inner mechanics that takes experience to know. My example shows that a player who does not play at the level necessary would not be able to have the necessary experience to even execute let alone invent.
On March 21 2013 00:27 red_ wrote:
Oddly enough, the AP Trynd example you used for your argument about how players are too stagnant, was born from the brain of a 'bad'(relative to pros) player. Clearly he saw an exploitable strategy and sought to abuse it. Because he isn't amazing he still managed to fuck it up sometimes and perhaps play it imperfectly, but it was nonetheless universally seen as a very strong strategy with no solid counterplay options.
As far as the coaching thing goes, coaches in pretty much every sport are responsible for strategy as well as 'practice' and mindset coaching. Bill Walsh didn't play pro ball(he was a mediocre college athlete), but he started the greatest offensive revolution in NFL history(until maybe modern day, we'll see how long the spread option lasts as a movement). He wrote his master's thesis on how specific formations effected defenses in the game of football; his mind clearly worked on the game at a level other peoples' didn't, regardless of his lack of expertise on the field itself. Tom Brady's role in the Patriots offense isn't to come up with the plays they run because he has the best mind for the game, it's to use his superior physical and mental gifts ON THE FIELD to successfully run the plays and overarching gameplan someone else tells him to, with leeway for on the fly adjustments(even those adjustments are created by the offensive coordinator, Brady's job is to pick which one best fits the situation).
There are almost certainly examples of coaches who have even less playing experience/expertise who also made amazing contributions to their sport, but I am extremely familiar with Walsh and wanted to use him as an example.
The first notable AP trynd was heavenzcurse aka iM heavenz intel back in early to mid season 2, he was 2500+. Finding OP champions or setups is not the same as creating strategies.
I am aware of what goes on in other sports. I've said multiple times that LoL is unique to other sports.
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I almost always take butcher mastery nowadays, Havoc kinda sucks.
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On March 21 2013 00:43 AsnSensation wrote:
I almost always take butcher mastery nowadays, Havoc kinda sucks.
On what? For aps it is better than Archmages 5% more ap.
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Considering the sheer ratio of low-level to high-level players, most soloQ innovations are much more likely to be theorycrafted by lowbies rather than top-level players. It's just that for the most part, anything innovated at low-levels are often stigmatized as "cheese" that only works against players that don't know how to counter them, and it takes a high Elo player to bring exposure +legitimize the strategy as viable against actually good players.
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sure but making something work at low elo isn't the same as making it work at high or higher elo. If it's truly broken then it should be freelo. For example ilovellamas, a 1800 player magically spamming eve to 2700 in season 2. Finding OP champions or setups is also not nearly the same as developing 5s strategies.
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With the BotRK nerfs, do you guys think we will see more Sejuani play? I've noticed her winrate on Lolking go up to ~54.5% and stay there since the patch (yes IK BotRK was hotfixed, but now people actually know its less effective).
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Not all of it is completely correct but seems pretty reasonable for a competitive tier list. Probably overrating Xerath a bit but then again, it's made by an NA player where Xerath is mad popular I guess.
On March 21 2013 01:10 57 Corvette wrote:
With the BotRK nerfs, do you guys think we will see more Sejuani play? I've noticed her winrate on Lolking go up to ~54.5% and stay there since the patch (yes IK BotRK was hotfixed, but now people actually know its less effective).
I doubt we'll see her in competitive play since she doesn't have a lot of early presence (much like heca, but worse). She can be pretty strong in solo queue though, once early levels are past she's an absolute terror and Liandry's + health stacking is both amazing on her.
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EPT
