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Not entirely comparable but plenty SCII coaches aren't in Master league either.
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On March 21 2013 02:18 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level The guy MegaZero found? Some Korean coach? I don't need to have one for there to exist one. Hell, nowhere in my or anyone else's argument here has anyone said that person even has to exist currently. The conversation started because MRN completely discredited a coach one of their own players presented on the merit of his ranking before any other interaction, and why that is not grounds to decide a person is incapable for the position. I gave this much more respect as a response than I should've considering it's just a flat out fallacy in the first place.
alright keep believing
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 02:19 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level Nate Silver. Or at least he would if he turned his attention to LoL.
I'd attempt to pay him to generate the kinds of statistics that he would in a LoL analyst position. So much awesomeness to be had.
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On March 21 2013 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ive no idea who youre talking about, you seriously underestimate how little people who think they understand the game but play at a low level actually understand the game.
The thing is that even if this applies to 99.9999% of the players, there are some rare people who have a knack for intuitively grasping minute details from observation and think on a much higher level than the players themselves; they just cannot apply their talent in real-time but for coaching purposes this works out perfectly.
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Don't worry, I've learned not to feed zulu_nation8's ego a long time ago
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On March 21 2013 02:22 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:19 Seuss wrote:On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level Nate Silver. Or at least he would if he turned his attention to LoL. I'd attempt to pay him to generate the kinds of statistics that he would in a LoL analyst position. So much awesomeness to be had.
Is Nate really a prodigal statisician though? He just wrote a book and did better than political pundits you see on TV at predicting elections.
I don't think his analysis would be any more in depth or mathematical than that of an average statistician.
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On March 21 2013 02:25 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ive no idea who youre talking about, you seriously underestimate how little people who think they understand the game but play at a low level actually understand the game. The thing is that even if this applies to 99.9999% of the players, there are some rare people who have a knack for intuitively grasping minute details from observation and think on a much higher level than the players themselves; they just cannot apply their talent in real-time but for coaching purposes this works out perfectly.
sure, but until that happens it's unrealistic to expect non players to magically understand competitive LoL
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 02:27 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:22 AsmodeusXI wrote:On March 21 2013 02:19 Seuss wrote:On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level Nate Silver. Or at least he would if he turned his attention to LoL. I'd attempt to pay him to generate the kinds of statistics that he would in a LoL analyst position. So much awesomeness to be had. Is Nate really a prodigal statisician though? He just wrote a book and did better than political pundits you see on TV at predicting elections. I don't think his analysis would be any more in depth or mathematical than that of an average statistician.
I think you're ignoring the fact that he's eFamous and that makes him better than everyone else.
+ Show Spoiler +I honestly couldn't compare him to any other statistician, not knowing any of them. He has a reputation for logic and consistency, however, and there aren't any REAL in-depth LoL statistics being studied in a meaningful way (I think), so why not someone famous?
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On March 21 2013 01:55 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:
[quote]
AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:
[quote]
AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here. Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at?
It's completely ridiculous, we all know champ popularity varies according to many factors and actual power level is the dominant but not only one. He's given multiple examples and dismisses one because it's "weird" and the other because it's from before he started playing.
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On March 21 2013 02:30 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:55 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here. Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at? It's completely ridiculous, we all know champ popularity varies according to many factors and actual power level is the dominant but not only one. He's given multiple examples and dismisses one because it's "weird" and the other because it's from before he started playing.
Zzz no use discussing if you're as convicted in your opinion that you're using personal attacks and terms like 'we all know'. Lets just agree to disagree
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On March 21 2013 02:29 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:27 obesechicken13 wrote:On March 21 2013 02:22 AsmodeusXI wrote:On March 21 2013 02:19 Seuss wrote:On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level Nate Silver. Or at least he would if he turned his attention to LoL. I'd attempt to pay him to generate the kinds of statistics that he would in a LoL analyst position. So much awesomeness to be had. Is Nate really a prodigal statisician though? He just wrote a book and did better than political pundits you see on TV at predicting elections. I don't think his analysis would be any more in depth or mathematical than that of an average statistician. I think you're ignoring the fact that he's eFamous and that makes him better than everyone else. + Show Spoiler +I honestly couldn't compare him to any other statistician, not knowing any of them. He has a reputation for logic and consistency, however, and there aren't any REAL in-depth LoL statistics being studied in a meaningful way (I think), so why not someone famous?
He'd be worse than most lolking reports.
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On March 21 2013 02:27 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:22 AsmodeusXI wrote:On March 21 2013 02:19 Seuss wrote:On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level Nate Silver. Or at least he would if he turned his attention to LoL. I'd attempt to pay him to generate the kinds of statistics that he would in a LoL analyst position. So much awesomeness to be had. Is Nate really a prodigal statisician though? He just wrote a book and did better than political pundits you see on TV at predicting elections. I don't think his analysis would be any more in depth or mathematical than that of an average statistician.
To be fair, Nate got somewhat lucky with the election results. But he knows this. He was like "ohh, I think Ohio has a 58% chance of going to Obama..." but the media presses him to make a solid prediction, so he has to call Ohio for Obama even though he's not terribly confident that it will go that way.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2013 01:16 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 00:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I am aware of what goes on in other sports. I've said multiple times that LoL is unique to other sports.
I don't understand how LoL is unique compared to other sports... having bad space judgement and getting your ball stolen seems roughly equivalent to having bad space judgement and taking bad damage in LoL, both with inhibit any play your team is trying to make. Every sport with any strategy has hidden aspects that aren't obvious to me as a spectator that bad players may not realize inhibit certain plays. So I ask how can LoL possibly be so unique as to resist pure analysis when no other competition in the world has? What about DotA 2?
I will point out that none of the top DotA 2 teams currently operate with an analysis-coach of the type people are implying.
The only person that's ever had that sort of analysis-coach position in DotA is 2009 (for LGD in 2010, and WE in 2011), and he was coming off a fruitful career as a captain and player. I would argue that his is a rare case because most other coaches that transitioned from being players have been far less hands-on than he was (and in his case, 820 and 2009's understanding of the game were unmatched by anyone else, so losing 2009 in that strategic capacity would have been an enormous loss to LGD).
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On March 21 2013 02:27 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:22 AsmodeusXI wrote:On March 21 2013 02:19 Seuss wrote:On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level Nate Silver. Or at least he would if he turned his attention to LoL. I'd attempt to pay him to generate the kinds of statistics that he would in a LoL analyst position. So much awesomeness to be had. Is Nate really a prodigal statisician though? He just wrote a book and did better than political pundits you see on TV at predicting elections. I don't think his analysis would be any more in depth or mathematical than that of an average statistician.
I think you meant prodigy.
I brought up Nate Silver because he's a statistician who walked into a realm where supposedly experience and the insight it provides were king, and totally smashed that assumption. Whether he's average or not wasn't important, but if an average statistician can do that to politics it's fairly short-sighted to assume the same can't happen in LoL.
Nate's not the only example of this sort of thing either. There's an entire movie about how baseball was completely changed by statistics.
To be clear an ideal strategist (because as TheYango pointed out this practically isn't even about coaching at this point) has both experience and analytical skills, but I find it kind of silly when people overemphasize one as though the other wasn't equally important.
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The fact that a bunch of solo queuers can form a team, qualifiy for LCS and beat the old guard weeks in (see MRN) shows that you don't need to be in a 5s team to understand 5s. If being in a 5s team would be a prerequisite to understand them, they would have never succeeded in the first place. Still they are able to perform up to a lvl of play that is at least comparabe to Dignitas, Curse, TSM and CLG. Some of them didn't even play LoL for that long before. So either they were totally gifted, or it is very simple to understand 5s strategy on a lvl to beat it consistently.
Dear zulu_nation8, please choose one of those statements or beat my weak argumentation.
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On March 21 2013 02:20 Serelitz wrote:
Not entirely comparable but plenty SCII coaches aren't in Master league either.
I'm fairly certain that almost all player coaches (the ones that discuss optimal strategy and analyze opponents for you), are either currently or formerly masters+.
The management coaches vary a lot more because they don't have quite the same role.
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I just want to throw out TROLLS, and wider TL LOL as an example. We have some good players here and I'd say that our average skill level is pretty good compared to any random gathering of players, but the vast majority of us are still probably below Plat/Diamond or whatever you would count as decent/high elo. Still, we can usually have some good ideas, like TROLLS deliberately thinks up silly stuff, try to theorycraft it out, and if we think its kind of viable we try and see if it works.
I mean obviously there's some high elo micro shit that lower level players can't carry out, but there's a lot of stuff that us plebs can think of and kind of make work.
Nate Silver didn't use super-math or anything really, he just carved out a niche as the eFamous stats guy. He assumed the law of averages would work over a large enough sample of polls and whoopdedoop he went 50/50 states on election day.
Also, consulting and punditry are 90% bullshit. Sitting in B-school classes makes me increasingly convinced its "gut feeling" that trashed out economy, even more so than greed.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2013 02:44 Broetchenholer wrote:
The fact that a bunch of solo queuers can form a team, qualifiy for LCS and beat the old guard weeks in (see MRN) shows that you don't need to be in a 5s team to understand 5s. If being in a 5s team would be a prerequisite to understand them, they would have never succeeded in the first place. Still they are able to perform up to a lvl of play that is at least comparabe to Dignitas, Curse, TSM and CLG. Some of them didn't even play LoL for that long before. So either they were totally gifted, or it is very simple to understand 5s strategy on a lvl to beat it consistently.
Dear zulu_nation8, please choose one of those statements or beat my weak argumentation.
The flaw in this statement is that you're assuming that NA top teams understand 5s, lol.
The fact that MRN can beat established teams isn't proof that you don't need to play 5s to understand 5s. It's proof that the "established" teams can play 5s for years and still suck.
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On March 21 2013 02:34 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:30 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 21 2013 01:55 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:
[quote]
Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:
[quote]
Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here. Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at? It's completely ridiculous, we all know champ popularity varies according to many factors and actual power level is the dominant but not only one. He's given multiple examples and dismisses one because it's "weird" and the other because it's from before he started playing. Zzz no use discussing if you're as convicted in your opinion that you're using personal attacks and terms like 'we all know'. Lets just agree to disagree
Actual power levels and current popularity is something that has been discussed to death in the TL lol community. His frustration with you stems from the general consensus on the sub forum that how popular a champion is can often have very little to do with whether or not it's actually good. It doesn't help that a lot of ppl here are proud of their 'hipster cried' in terms of predicting the next form hero. In any case, if you want a more recent example, then just look at zed's history and how, for the first few weeks, he was considered pretty bad.
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On March 21 2013 02:47 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:34 Serelitz wrote:On March 21 2013 02:30 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 21 2013 01:55 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here. Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at? It's completely ridiculous, we all know champ popularity varies according to many factors and actual power level is the dominant but not only one. He's given multiple examples and dismisses one because it's "weird" and the other because it's from before he started playing. Zzz no use discussing if you're as convicted in your opinion that you're using personal attacks and terms like 'we all know'. Lets just agree to disagree Actual power levels and current popularity is something that has been discussed to death in the TL lol community. His frustration with you stems from the general consensus on the sub forum that how popular a champion is can often have very little to do with whether or not it's actually good. It doesn't help that a lot of ppl here are proud of their 'hipster cried' in terms of predicting the next form hero. In any case, if you want a more recent example, then just look at zed's history and how, for the first few weeks, he was considered pretty bad.
I have dibs on jungle Lulu btw.
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EPT
