EPTthats why zhonyas is like a massive counter to him that its almost worth buying it on ads
[Patch 3.04: Zac] General Discussion - Page 26
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
thats why zhonyas is like a massive counter to him that its almost worth buying it on ads | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:21 barbsq wrote: Dude, ppl thought zed was bad. Iirc, even shake (who made a highlight reel of zed shortly after release) said that while zed was fun to play, he probably needed some buffs and qol changes to make him 'viable'. If he said that again, now, ppl would probably think him to be silly. The problem is, that riot used to employ the super-reactive patching that you are looking for (apparently before you started playing), and it honestly caused much more problems than it fixed. Hm I'll look that up then but that wasn't the impression I had playing, could be wrong tho. ^^ I don't really want anything changed about patching rate as is (I think Nami is in a pretty good spot after getting some consequent minor buffs which is the best approach, Syndra as well), I just want to give some counterweight to all the people I see yelling to not change plain bad champs. edit: Best I could find is this which says he was already popular in Korea at the time. I didn't think he was perceived as outright weak though so I guess you're right there ^^ | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:16 AsmodeusXI wrote: What about something like Nami/Vayne with the various speed ups Nami grants? Could that make Vayne less weak early to an aggressive lane? Like something with a Zyra or Blitz plus a Graves? Nami is terrible, or at least risky, vs all-in's unless you can all-in even harder. The problem is that her only deterrence when the enemy team can all-in you is Q, and if you miss Q, you lose 100%. Also, you WILL miss even a perfectly placed Q if they just use flash to dodge it. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:20 Mondeezy wrote: Also, I agree that a team needs more than individual yoloQ skill to succeed in High level competition. While I wouldn't go so far as to say "Yea u don't know jack about the game if you don't play r5s", I would definitely say there is a large element of understanding team play and chemistry that can only be achieved playing as a team. For example, one of my buddies that I run bot lane with and I completely understand how we play and are able to trust each other when deciding to all in or farm or whatever. We move as a team when we go around the map - that's not something you can pick up playing individually. It takes a lot of understanding of the team and it's players to be able to get everyone in the same mindset compared to one person running off to farm and the other 4 grouping. It's something I don't see a lot of teams doing in NA, and while mistakes happen, they shouldn't be occurring that often in high level play. Teams should move and coordinate as one, not in groups. the truth is, compared to asians, no one besides gambit knows how to play the game. EU is better than NA, but then most LCS teams would 9-1 any amateur team. Most amateur teams are comprised of the best solo queue players with 5s experience, then we have the ones who are high elo but don't play 5s, then we have the mid elo grinders, then low elo, etc. Then we have the silver elo TL general thread poster who's adamantly defending his extensive knowledge of competitive LoL. I started slow by saying, if you don't even play ranked 5s then you don't understand a lot of what is going on, but apparently that's too harsh too. Thanks for bestowing on me the amazing insight that pro teams don't know how to deduct wards. I will make sure the secret stays safe. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:23 Slayer91 wrote: to be fair zeds a weird champion to play and it basically worthless without his ult mechanic thats why zhonyas is like a massive counter to him that its almost worth buying it on ads QSS also removes the Death Mark. Obviously MR isn't useful vs. Zed, but buying Zhonya's on AD wastes more gold on AP than QSS wastes on MR. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:23 Slayer91 wrote: to be fair zeds a weird champion to play and it basically worthless without his ult mechanic thats why zhonyas is like a massive counter to him that its almost worth buying it on ads That's kinda the point I was trying to make. It is exactly because he is a weird sort of champ that he required time for ppl to figure him out, he didn't need buffs at all. Another good example is syndra, a champ a huge proportion of ppl thought was shit until link came and stomped some nuts with her. Now they have changed their tune to 'oh, well actually she just has a really high skill requirement'. | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:27 barbsq wrote: That's kinda the point I was trying to make. It is exactly because he is a weird sort of champ that he required time for ppl to figure him out, he didn't need buffs at all. Another good example is syndra, a champ a huge proportion of ppl thought was shit until link came and stomped some nuts with her. Now they have changed their tune to 'oh, well actually she just has a really high skill requirement'. Syndra has received quite a few buffs since her release tho. | ||
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:23 Slayer91 wrote: to be fair zeds a weird champion to play and it basically worthless without his ult mechanic thats why zhonyas is like a massive counter to him that its almost worth buying it on ads I love Zed to death but damn there are so many ways to make him useless it's unreal. Yesterday I had the pleasure of playing vs a Kayle+Zil+J4 comp, J4 would ult onto me to force me to waste W, and if any of them were low they'd get a Zil ult, then the next kill target would get Kayle ult, then if I actually lived beyond that they would ZHonyas. Luckily we had a Cass melting everyone. I feel like Zed is super fun but he's a pretty niche pick, and if you first pick him prepare to get completely shut down vs competent players. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On March 20 2013 22:31 Serelitz wrote: No, I'm saying ziggs' Q doesn't explode at max range and neither does Sejuani's ult, nor does Quinn's Q, nor does Kha's unevolved W. Fizz/Jayce are the exception, not the rule. Straight from the wiki: The bomb will explode and deal magic damage in an area upon hitting an enemy or bouncing twice. And I confirm it, shit's pretty annoying to juke if the Ziggs player do it right because he doesn't need to hit you, only to throw it so the second bounce lands near you and you get hit by the AoE. On March 21 2013 00:37 kongoline wrote: i still wait for wukong fotm, every champion with armor shred had his 5minutes of fame except for him and wu seems like a very decent top in current meta with sick tf potential. Shit 1v2, single target 3s armour shred compared to Renekton's and Jarvan's AoE shreds, relies heavily on mana and auto-attacks to fight so he tends to push the lane and gets himself oom very quickly when playing aggressive, you can obviously start using mass pots including mana ones but if your opponent starts mass pots himself and doesn't die to level 2-3 high pressure (for example using a red elixir) he'll most likely outsustain either you or your mana with his own pots. Wukong's good, but he's never been an amazing top laner. (I actually think he was better in s2 when you could just build wriggles or hexdrinker depending on the enemy lane, phage, then straight-up aegis and ride your super-strong passive to be an uber-tanky initiator and then just stack HP. The current meta is too aggressive so he can't farm as much in peace.) On March 21 2013 03:15 Serelitz wrote: Nami cait should be amazing for solo Q now that her E animation is more obvious for your AD carry. Only problem I have is whenever I play Nami I vs. some stupid kill like Rengar/Lee and keep forgetting that I'm actually super squishy. After playing so much Leona and Thresh I found I suck at Sona, my previous main support. "What do you mean I'm already dead? T_T" MF + Nami could prob work pretty well though, somebody pointed out in the MF thread that he goes E max to set up plays with the slow (and the pretty good base damage). MF E then ults, and Nami uses the 52% slow to Q the targets, boom bingo? If they don't flash they're dead, unless they're Ashe with a reactive ult between MF starting hers and Nami using Q, because you still have Nami's W, E and ult, and Struts to catch up to them and finish them off if they somehow survived the burst. On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote: Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level TL writing staff yo. There was also some guy who looked up VoDs and analysed I think it was TPA's whole set of level 1 strategies (there were 6-7 of them depending on side, jungler starting buff, lane swap or not, invades or defending, safety, etc.). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote: To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. Responding to this late because I didn't actually get to follow the *other* thread of discussion here. Serelitz, you have to realize that even in your saying that these champs benefitted from S3 changes (which is true) there was still an enormous lag time in discovering them. S3 patch came out beginning of December. Xin didn't even become FotM until the end of January/early February after IEM Katowice. Volibear not until mid-February, when EU LCS was fully under way. This is the 2-month lag time that historically has been seen in a change being made and the champ becoming popular. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1954 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:07 zulu_nation8 wrote: How do you know theyre only solo queuers? clakeydeee actually thinks a lot about the game and has always been on teams. They are all pretty gifted mechanically and thus were able to improve so fast. Okay, so, if being gifted is all it takes to understand "NA-LCS"-level of professional-5s-play, how can you say gold players can not be gifted in understanding the game? If you say clakeyd thinks a lot about the game, wow, i guess people without a team can't do that. You are arguing, that a player that cannot reach platinum is unable to contribute to an NA-LCS Team in a way that he would be considered helpful as a coach. Mechanically gifted players are able to beat experienced 5s team, cauz they are mechanically gifted, but analytically gifted players are not able to even understand what is happening at that level. Okay. | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:38 TheYango wrote: Responding to this late because I didn't actually get to follow the *other* thread of discussion here. Serelitz, you have to realize that even in your saying that these champs benefitted from S3 changes (which is true) there was still an enormous lag time in discovering them. S3 patch came out beginning of December. Xin didn't even become FotM until the end of January/early February after IEM Katowice. Volibear not until mid-February, when EU LCS was fully under way. This is the 2-month lag time that historically has been seen in a change being made and the champ becoming popular. oh I 100% agree, if I came off as implying everything gets figured out immediately after a patch that's obviously my bad. Especially after changes as big as S3 changes. All I meant was champions almost never randomly become popular without any changes whatsoever, especially not straight up bad champs. On March 21 2013 03:44 mordek wrote: So I've been playing a lot of Karma before the remake hits... it's been fun. I'll miss you old Karma. Don't play Karma a lot myself but the skin changes are horrible TT Don't like her new look at all. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:43 Serelitz wrote: oh I 100% agree, if I came off as implying everything gets figured out immediately after a patch that's obviously my bad. Especially after changes as big as S3 changes. All I meant was champions almost never randomly become popular without any changes whatsoever, especially not straight up bad champs. Yes, but a lot of times those changes are things that favor a specific playstyle or teamcomp indirectly helping the hero, not something that directly affects the hero's own power/itemization. Example of this is MF being a near-ubiquitous AD pick in S3 despite being almost never seen in S2. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:20 Mondeezy wrote: Also, I agree that a team needs more than individual yoloQ skill to succeed in High level competition. While I wouldn't go so far as to say "Yea u don't know jack about the game if you don't play r5s", I would definitely say there is a large element of understanding team play and chemistry that can only be achieved playing as a team. For example, one of my buddies that I run bot lane with and I completely understand how we play and are able to trust each other when deciding to all in or farm or whatever. We move as a team when we go around the map - that's not something you can pick up playing individually. It takes a lot of understanding of the team and it's players to be able to get everyone in the same mindset compared to one person running off to farm and the other 4 grouping. It's something I don't see a lot of teams doing in NA, and while mistakes happen, they shouldn't be occurring that often in high level play. Teams should move and coordinate as one, not in groups. i have to add that some people are really, really good at leading teams and communicating. the time i played with trolls, i played on 5-hit's team and his leadership and ability to direct the team was really good and unlike anyone i've ever played with, and it's not like everyone said "5-hit will be our leader," it was just really natural. i can imagine that monte also has that quality based on the discussions we were having post-game. the one time i played with bly back when TL was doing IHs, he also had that. i can't say that all his calls were the right calls in that particular game, but he was still able to get everyone on the same page and that's a very underestimated and very valuable skill to have. as for your bot lane buddy, i have friends who run bot lane in perfect sync. the problem is that their communication in fights that are larger than 2 of them is not as strong and we've identified our teamfighting as a weakness that we're striving to improve. it's comparatively much easier to have synergy in bot lane than it is to have global synergy. tracking wards is really difficult. unless you have your wards up first or they make it completely obvious that they've warded, it's not easy to know when or where they put them down. one easy case is if mid backs and puts down a ward on their way back to lane. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:41 Broetchenholer wrote: Okay, so, if being gifted is all it takes to understand "NA-LCS"-level of professional-5s-play, how can you say gold players can not be gifted in understanding the game? If you say clakeyd thinks a lot about the game, wow, i guess people without a team can't do that. You are arguing, that a player that cannot reach platinum is unable to contribute to an NA-LCS Team in a way that he would be considered helpful as a coach. Mechanically gifted players are able to beat experienced 5s team, cauz they are mechanically gifted, but analytically gifted players are not able to even understand what is happening at that level. Okay. I never said platinum, but I'll say that no one who does not have extensive 5s experience can contribute to any pro teams, even NA ones, in a meaningful way strategically. If we're talking about the great white whale here then sure, there could be a Gold player out there that can help curse beat KT. But if we're being realistic, no. The difference between mechanically gifted and analytically gifted is that one is tangible, the other is not. You can be gold elo forever and tell yourself you're strategically gifted, and no one will believe you because you're most likely just delusional. Oh and the other reason is just common sense, if you don't have the experience, how can you just know stuff out of thin air? And why are people so hesitant to believe me? | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote: Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level <<<< also, most of the good TL theorycrafters? i get a decent handful of ideas that i then bring to my team, from teamliquid, as you saw at the LCS (warmogs/sunfire on every top that cris ran, elise [though the team overrode me and wouldn't spam her], etc). there are tons of players on this forum alone that understand the game better than a lot of the more mechanically gifted players. anyway bly's opinions, while fine, are mostly wrong on the subject of arranged 5s / how to succeed in high level play. in fact i'd say it's the idea that league is different from other sports that is what's holding back a lot of teams as people with backgrounds in established sports and business people start entering the league of legends scene, you'll see the mindset and practice regimen of teams turn to a more physical-sport-oriented mindset. see: basically the whole NA scene, especially MRN/GGU, for why treating LoL as a game (led by gamers) rather than a job (run by bosses) affects performance. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:43 Serelitz wrote: All I meant was champions almost never randomly become popular without any changes whatsoever, especially not straight up bad champs. Sivir was considered worse than the "Trinity" of AD Carries at the end of S2, especially after a bunch of nerfs as well. And then CLG came up with a team that made it work and won enough games that Sivir became a ban because no one had the time to figure out how to beat it. | ||
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:26 zulu_nation8 wrote: the truth is, compared to asians, no one besides gambit knows how to play the game. EU is better than NA, but then most LCS teams would 9-1 any amateur team. Most amateur teams are comprised of the best solo queue players with 5s experience, then we have the ones who are high elo but don't play 5s, then we have the mid elo grinders, then low elo, etc. Then we have the silver elo TL general thread poster who's adamantly defending his extensive knowledge of competitive LoL. I started slow by saying, if you don't even play ranked 5s then you don't understand a lot of what is going on, but apparently that's too harsh too. Thanks for bestowing on me the amazing insight that pro teams don't know how to deduct wards. I will make sure the secret stays safe. Well, what would you recommend AM teams do to get to the same level as the Top 4 LCS teams? It seems like the pro scene is extremely fragmented in that there are 5-6 top teams and then a bunch of above average ones that get stomped every game. Obviously hiring a coach and having a strict practice regimen would be among that - I just feel that there are lots of players who could potentially be great, but don't incentivize themselves enough or find teammates as dedicated as them. I bet there are tons of players out their who are extremely gifted at the game and could be a huge asset to a team (see Kiwikid) but dont have the resources or opportunity to do it. Should these pro teams in NA Scene be willing to drop their more experienced, comfort zone players and take a risk with these "nobodies" that could potentially have a better understanding of the game? Then on the other hand we have teams like TSM that are focused on some drama reality show and solo queue instead of practicing teams out of their comfort level. Is this the fault of the pro teams? Am teams? Or just the whole scene in general? I feel Riot is doing an excellent job promoting the LCS and stuff, but it seems so far out of reach for most players to find teammates and get to that level, compared to baseball or something where you get drafted to school, have a team and tons of amateur teams to play versus, and them get a chance to be drafted into one of many top teams with enough hard work. | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:48 TheYango wrote: Yes, but a lot of times those changes are things that favor a specific playstyle or teamcomp indirectly helping the hero, not something that directly affects the hero's own power/itemization. Example of this is MF being a near-ubiquitous AD pick in S3 despite being almost never seen in S2. I agree ^^ Usually when a champion gets straight up buffed or nerfed itself (instead of it being items or the meta changing to fit it) people overreact - Gragas is finally seeing some play again as well for example, although that's partially because he's good against MF based comps I guess. | ||
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