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United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I never said platinum, but I'll say that no one who does not have extensive 5s experience can contribute to any pro teams, even NA ones, in a meaningful way strategically. If we're talking about the great white whale here then sure, there could be a Gold player out there that can help curse beat KT. But if we're being realistic, no. The difference between mechanically gifted and analytically gifted is that one is tangible, the other is not. You can be gold elo forever and tell yourself you're strategically gifted, and no one will believe you because you're most likely just delusional.
Oh and the other reason is just common sense, if you don't have the experience, how can you just know stuff out of thin air? And why are people so hesitant to believe me?
Bly, I think the bolded statement isn the disconnect here.
You're arguing that for practical purposes, such an "analytical genius" is not someone who you'd want to bet on existing because the likelihood of them being good at analysis without also being good at the game, and at the same time somehow still interested in becoming involved with a pro team is so small as to be impractical and nonsensical to think about. Which I think is right.
While on the other hand, some of the people you're arguing with are actually simply raising the semantic argument that such a person COULD exist. Which is also probably right, but I think pointless to discuss. When such a person exists, we'll worry about it. But until then, it's not something you'd want to bet on or plan on.
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On March 21 2013 03:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:43 Serelitz wrote:
oh I 100% agree, if I came off as implying everything gets figured out immediately after a patch that's obviously my bad. Especially after changes as big as S3 changes. All I meant was champions almost never randomly become popular without any changes whatsoever, especially not straight up bad champs. Yes, but a lot of times those changes are things that favor a specific playstyle or teamcomp indirectly helping the hero, not something that directly affects the hero's own power/itemization. Example of this is MF being a near-ubiquitous AD pick in S3 despite being almost never seen in S2.
J4/Kayle//Olaf/AP Trynd/Rammus/Renekton/Rumble/Twitch/Ziggs. All of those champions were barely played before they suddenly appeared in every game. This is for NA.
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This discussion is going in circles I doubt any one is going to change the minds of the other..not for lack of trying at least.
I like Zed but I hate zed, he really feels like he works better with a team built around him. If you look at the Gambit/KT games for example you see KT's Zed surviving thanks to Shen and Kayle and even then half the time he makes it out of the fight with next to no health. He's so all in that you either have to be ahead or have people to help you escape. Mind you this is team fights, lanes and ganking he's great at but to take him into a team fight and live is an entire different barrel of Nami's.
One of the few times I'd say he's better to be used with teams then in solo que.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:51 gtrsrs wrote:
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also, most of the good TL theorycrafters? i get a decent handful of ideas that i then bring to my team, from teamliquid, as you saw at the LCS (warmogs/sunfire on every top that cris ran, elise [though the team overrode me and wouldn't spam her], etc). there are tons of players on this forum alone that understand the game better than a lot of the more mechanically gifted players.
That wasn't theorycraft, that was TL actually paying attention to OGN games. Anyone could have gleaned the same knowledge watching Korean top lane play in OGN.
The only thing that could be considered "theorycraft" from TL at the time that eventually came into use was Locket being OP as balls. And later, Monte's discovery of jungle Nasus, though with the crit Q bug, I think that would have been a thing regardless.
Incidentally, Diamondprox was the one to show both of these to the world. Obviously this must mean that Diamondprox is secretly a TLer.
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On March 21 2013 03:50 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I never said platinum, but I'll say that no one who does not have extensive 5s experience can contribute to any pro teams, even NA ones, in a meaningful way strategically. If we're talking about the great white whale here then sure, there could be a Gold player out there that can help curse beat KT. But if we're being realistic, no. The difference between mechanically gifted and analytically gifted is that one is tangible, the other is not. You can be gold elo forever and tell yourself you're strategically gifted, and no one will believe you because you're most likely just delusional.
Oh and the other reason is just common sense, if you don't have the experience, how can you just know stuff out of thin air? And why are people so hesitant to believe me?
Because you're in effect telling them that they don't understand the competitive game at a high level because they don't play arranged 5s at a high level.
Truth hurts?
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On March 21 2013 03:53 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 21 2013 03:20 Mondeezy wrote:
Also, I agree that a team needs more than individual yoloQ skill to succeed in High level competition. While I wouldn't go so far as to say "Yea u don't know jack about the game if you don't play r5s", I would definitely say there is a large element of understanding team play and chemistry that can only be achieved playing as a team. For example, one of my buddies that I run bot lane with and I completely understand how we play and are able to trust each other when deciding to all in or farm or whatever. We move as a team when we go around the map - that's not something you can pick up playing individually.
It takes a lot of understanding of the team and it's players to be able to get everyone in the same mindset compared to one person running off to farm and the other 4 grouping. It's something I don't see a lot of teams doing in NA, and while mistakes happen, they shouldn't be occurring that often in high level play. Teams should move and coordinate as one, not in groups. the truth is, compared to asians, no one besides gambit knows how to play the game. EU is better than NA, but then most LCS teams would 9-1 any amateur team. Most amateur teams are comprised of the best solo queue players with 5s experience, then we have the ones who are high elo but don't play 5s, then we have the mid elo grinders, then low elo, etc. Then we have the silver elo TL general thread poster who's adamantly defending his extensive knowledge of competitive LoL. I started slow by saying, if you don't even play ranked 5s then you don't understand a lot of what is going on, but apparently that's too harsh too. Thanks for bestowing on me the amazing insight that pro teams don't know how to deduct wards. I will make sure the secret stays safe. Well, what would you recommend AM teams do to get to the same level as the Top 4 LCS teams? It seems like the pro scene is extremely fragmented in that there are 5-6 top teams and then a bunch of above average ones that get stomped every game. Obviously hiring a coach and having a strict practice regimen would be among that - I just feel that there are lots of players who could potentially be great, but don't incentivize themselves enough or find teammates as dedicated as them. I bet there are tons of players out their who are extremely gifted at the game and could be a huge asset to a team (see Kiwikid) but dont have the resources or opportunity to do it. Should these pro teams in NA Scene be willing to drop their more experienced, comfort zone players and take a risk with these "nobodies" that could potentially have a better understanding of the game? Then on the other hand we have teams like TSM that are focused on some drama reality show and solo queue instead of practicing teams out of their comfort level. Is this the fault of the pro teams? Am teams? Or just the whole scene in general? I feel Riot is doing an excellent job promoting the LCS and stuff, but it seems so far out of reach for most players to find teammates and get to that level, compared to baseball or something where you get drafted to school, have a team and tons of amateur teams to play versus, and them get a chance to be drafted into one of many top teams with enough hard work.
All of those are real problems and it's the fault of the NA LoL culture. Too much to go into detail without making huge post and offending everyone.
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Does anyone actually enjoy this? I feel like it's just perpetuating a stereotype of 'NA drives on attention' at this point.
On March 21 2013 03:52 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:43 Serelitz wrote:
All I meant was champions almost never randomly become popular without any changes whatsoever, especially not straight up bad champs.
Sivir was considered worse than the "Trinity" of AD Carries at the end of S2, especially after a bunch of nerfs as well. And then CLG came up with a team that made it work and won enough games that Sivir became a ban because no one had the time to figure out how to beat it.
That's true - speaking of 'Trinity", I have to say Riot's balancing in S3 is a lot better than I expected. Toplane/Junglers are a bit boring with Renek/Elise/Rumble/Singed and Vi/J4/Xin but other than that champion diversity is in a really good spot atm.
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On March 21 2013 04:02 Serelitz wrote:Does anyone actually enjoy this? I feel like it's just perpetuating a stereotype of 'NA drives on attention' at this point. Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:52 xes wrote:On March 21 2013 03:43 Serelitz wrote:
All I meant was champions almost never randomly become popular without any changes whatsoever, especially not straight up bad champs.
Sivir was considered worse than the "Trinity" of AD Carries at the end of S2, especially after a bunch of nerfs as well. And then CLG came up with a team that made it work and won enough games that Sivir became a ban because no one had the time to figure out how to beat it. That's true - speaking of 'Trinity", I have to say Riot's balancing in S3 is a lot better than I expected. Toplane/Junglers are a bit boring with Renek/Elise/Rumble/Singed and Vi/J4/Xin but other than that champion diversity is in a really good spot atm.
I find it actually really painful to watch and probably won't be watching anymore.
Watching these 20-somethings act like 12 year old preteens is extremely cringe-worthy. I can't honestly listen to TOO half the time because he is just incapable of expressing himself like a normal person.
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On March 21 2013 03:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:51 gtrsrs wrote:
<<<<
also, most of the good TL theorycrafters? i get a decent handful of ideas that i then bring to my team, from teamliquid, as you saw at the LCS (warmogs/sunfire on every top that cris ran, elise [though the team overrode me and wouldn't spam her], etc). there are tons of players on this forum alone that understand the game better than a lot of the more mechanically gifted players.
That wasn't theorycraft, that was TL actually paying attention to OGN games. Anyone could have gleaned the same knowledge watching Korean top lane play in OGN. The only thing that could be considered "theorycraft" from TL at the time that eventually came into use was Locket being OP as balls. And later, Monte's discovery of jungle Nasus, though with the crit Q bug, I think that would have been a thing regardless. Incidentally, Diamondprox was the one to show both of these to the world. Obviously this must mean that Diamondprox is secretly a TLer.
I think it was scip who said locket was OP even before the patch came into effect. But really, it wasn't that hard to tell if people just looked at the numbers. I'm pretty sure everything "innovative" NAers do comes from Asia. But people either ignore or are stubborn. I remember asking Crumbz what he thought about the OGN club masters games and he had an entirely dismissive attitude saying something like, oh I saw this one jungler go spirit stone and madreds so I stopped watching. Obv hilarious now in hindsight. At the level NA teams play at, especially at the amateur level, being "innovative" should be the last concern because the real problem is making too many dumb mistakes that no one exploits because everyone else is equally bad. All of that came into light at MLG. BUT ITS OKAY WE ALL UNDERSTAND THE GAME.
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On March 21 2013 03:58 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:53 Mondeezy wrote:On March 21 2013 03:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 21 2013 03:20 Mondeezy wrote:
Also, I agree that a team needs more than individual yoloQ skill to succeed in High level competition. While I wouldn't go so far as to say "Yea u don't know jack about the game if you don't play r5s", I would definitely say there is a large element of understanding team play and chemistry that can only be achieved playing as a team. For example, one of my buddies that I run bot lane with and I completely understand how we play and are able to trust each other when deciding to all in or farm or whatever. We move as a team when we go around the map - that's not something you can pick up playing individually.
It takes a lot of understanding of the team and it's players to be able to get everyone in the same mindset compared to one person running off to farm and the other 4 grouping. It's something I don't see a lot of teams doing in NA, and while mistakes happen, they shouldn't be occurring that often in high level play. Teams should move and coordinate as one, not in groups. the truth is, compared to asians, no one besides gambit knows how to play the game. EU is better than NA, but then most LCS teams would 9-1 any amateur team. Most amateur teams are comprised of the best solo queue players with 5s experience, then we have the ones who are high elo but don't play 5s, then we have the mid elo grinders, then low elo, etc. Then we have the silver elo TL general thread poster who's adamantly defending his extensive knowledge of competitive LoL. I started slow by saying, if you don't even play ranked 5s then you don't understand a lot of what is going on, but apparently that's too harsh too. Thanks for bestowing on me the amazing insight that pro teams don't know how to deduct wards. I will make sure the secret stays safe. Well, what would you recommend AM teams do to get to the same level as the Top 4 LCS teams? It seems like the pro scene is extremely fragmented in that there are 5-6 top teams and then a bunch of above average ones that get stomped every game. Obviously hiring a coach and having a strict practice regimen would be among that - I just feel that there are lots of players who could potentially be great, but don't incentivize themselves enough or find teammates as dedicated as them. I bet there are tons of players out their who are extremely gifted at the game and could be a huge asset to a team (see Kiwikid) but dont have the resources or opportunity to do it. Should these pro teams in NA Scene be willing to drop their more experienced, comfort zone players and take a risk with these "nobodies" that could potentially have a better understanding of the game? Then on the other hand we have teams like TSM that are focused on some drama reality show and solo queue instead of practicing teams out of their comfort level. Is this the fault of the pro teams? Am teams? Or just the whole scene in general? I feel Riot is doing an excellent job promoting the LCS and stuff, but it seems so far out of reach for most players to find teammates and get to that level, compared to baseball or something where you get drafted to school, have a team and tons of amateur teams to play versus, and them get a chance to be drafted into one of many top teams with enough hard work. All of those are real problems and it's the fault of the NA LoL culture. Too much to go into detail without making huge post and offending everyone.
Eh, I wouldn't be offended. Not like I'm playing on the teams lol, would actually be interested in other points of view because frankly I'm tired of seeing NA get stomped with all of the resources available. Was actually going to ask about it on Reddit but god knows the amount of bashing that would come of that.. I value TLers opinions much more 
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On March 21 2013 04:19 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:58 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 21 2013 03:53 Mondeezy wrote:On March 21 2013 03:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 21 2013 03:20 Mondeezy wrote:
Also, I agree that a team needs more than individual yoloQ skill to succeed in High level competition. While I wouldn't go so far as to say "Yea u don't know jack about the game if you don't play r5s", I would definitely say there is a large element of understanding team play and chemistry that can only be achieved playing as a team. For example, one of my buddies that I run bot lane with and I completely understand how we play and are able to trust each other when deciding to all in or farm or whatever. We move as a team when we go around the map - that's not something you can pick up playing individually.
It takes a lot of understanding of the team and it's players to be able to get everyone in the same mindset compared to one person running off to farm and the other 4 grouping. It's something I don't see a lot of teams doing in NA, and while mistakes happen, they shouldn't be occurring that often in high level play. Teams should move and coordinate as one, not in groups. the truth is, compared to asians, no one besides gambit knows how to play the game. EU is better than NA, but then most LCS teams would 9-1 any amateur team. Most amateur teams are comprised of the best solo queue players with 5s experience, then we have the ones who are high elo but don't play 5s, then we have the mid elo grinders, then low elo, etc. Then we have the silver elo TL general thread poster who's adamantly defending his extensive knowledge of competitive LoL. I started slow by saying, if you don't even play ranked 5s then you don't understand a lot of what is going on, but apparently that's too harsh too. Thanks for bestowing on me the amazing insight that pro teams don't know how to deduct wards. I will make sure the secret stays safe. Well, what would you recommend AM teams do to get to the same level as the Top 4 LCS teams? It seems like the pro scene is extremely fragmented in that there are 5-6 top teams and then a bunch of above average ones that get stomped every game. Obviously hiring a coach and having a strict practice regimen would be among that - I just feel that there are lots of players who could potentially be great, but don't incentivize themselves enough or find teammates as dedicated as them. I bet there are tons of players out their who are extremely gifted at the game and could be a huge asset to a team (see Kiwikid) but dont have the resources or opportunity to do it. Should these pro teams in NA Scene be willing to drop their more experienced, comfort zone players and take a risk with these "nobodies" that could potentially have a better understanding of the game? Then on the other hand we have teams like TSM that are focused on some drama reality show and solo queue instead of practicing teams out of their comfort level. Is this the fault of the pro teams? Am teams? Or just the whole scene in general? I feel Riot is doing an excellent job promoting the LCS and stuff, but it seems so far out of reach for most players to find teammates and get to that level, compared to baseball or something where you get drafted to school, have a team and tons of amateur teams to play versus, and them get a chance to be drafted into one of many top teams with enough hard work. All of those are real problems and it's the fault of the NA LoL culture. Too much to go into detail without making huge post and offending everyone. Eh, I wouldn't be offended. Not like I'm playing on the teams lol, would actually be interested in other points of view because frankly I'm tired of seeing NA get stomped with all of the resources available.
I think the pressure with LCS will increase performance a bit comparatively (look at MRN's roster changes for one at least) but I doubt that NA (or most of EU for that matter) will ever catch up to asian teams.
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On March 21 2013 04:14 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:57 TheYango wrote:On March 21 2013 03:51 gtrsrs wrote:
<<<<
also, most of the good TL theorycrafters? i get a decent handful of ideas that i then bring to my team, from teamliquid, as you saw at the LCS (warmogs/sunfire on every top that cris ran, elise [though the team overrode me and wouldn't spam her], etc). there are tons of players on this forum alone that understand the game better than a lot of the more mechanically gifted players.
That wasn't theorycraft, that was TL actually paying attention to OGN games. Anyone could have gleaned the same knowledge watching Korean top lane play in OGN. The only thing that could be considered "theorycraft" from TL at the time that eventually came into use was Locket being OP as balls. And later, Monte's discovery of jungle Nasus, though with the crit Q bug, I think that would have been a thing regardless. Incidentally, Diamondprox was the one to show both of these to the world. Obviously this must mean that Diamondprox is secretly a TLer. I think it was scip who said locket was OP even before the patch came into effect. But really, it wasn't that hard to tell if people just looked at the numbers. I'm pretty sure everything "innovative" NAers do comes from Asia. But people either ignore or are stubborn. I remember asking Crumbz what he thought about the OGN club masters games and he had an entirely dismissive attitude saying something like, oh I saw this one jungler go spirit stone and madreds so I stopped watching. Obv hilarious now in hindsight. At the level NA teams play at, especially at the amateur level, being "innovative" should be the last concern because the real problem is making too many dumb mistakes that no one exploits because everyone else is equally bad. All of that came into light at MLG. BUT ITS OKAY WE ALL UNDERSTAND THE GAME.
You're putting so many words into peoples' mouths it's embarrassing. Good talk.
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Headhunter Nidalee is in the store if anybody here is interested in it
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All this talk of 5s play makes me wish I was on a 5s team again.
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Anyone know what this Syndra bug is? Currently disabled.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 21 2013 04:14 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I think it was scip who said locket was OP even before the patch came into effect. But really, it wasn't that hard to tell if people just looked at the numbers. I'm pretty sure everything "innovative" NAers do comes from Asia. But people either ignore or are stubborn. I remember asking Crumbz what he thought about the OGN club masters games and he had an entirely dismissive attitude saying something like, oh I saw this one jungler go spirit stone and madreds so I stopped watching. Obv hilarious now in hindsight. At the level NA teams play at, especially at the amateur level, being "innovative" should be the last concern because the real problem is making too many dumb mistakes that no one exploits because everyone else is equally bad. All of that came into light at MLG. BUT ITS OKAY WE ALL UNDERSTAND THE GAME.
I'm sure you realize how funny this bolded part is to me.
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On March 21 2013 04:33 red_ wrote:
Anyone know what this Syndra bug is? Currently disabled.
Saw someone saying you could despawn the blue by dragging it over a wall somewhere. No clue about details.
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On March 21 2013 04:29 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 04:14 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 21 2013 03:57 TheYango wrote:On March 21 2013 03:51 gtrsrs wrote:
<<<<
also, most of the good TL theorycrafters? i get a decent handful of ideas that i then bring to my team, from teamliquid, as you saw at the LCS (warmogs/sunfire on every top that cris ran, elise [though the team overrode me and wouldn't spam her], etc). there are tons of players on this forum alone that understand the game better than a lot of the more mechanically gifted players.
That wasn't theorycraft, that was TL actually paying attention to OGN games. Anyone could have gleaned the same knowledge watching Korean top lane play in OGN. The only thing that could be considered "theorycraft" from TL at the time that eventually came into use was Locket being OP as balls. And later, Monte's discovery of jungle Nasus, though with the crit Q bug, I think that would have been a thing regardless. Incidentally, Diamondprox was the one to show both of these to the world. Obviously this must mean that Diamondprox is secretly a TLer. I think it was scip who said locket was OP even before the patch came into effect. But really, it wasn't that hard to tell if people just looked at the numbers. I'm pretty sure everything "innovative" NAers do comes from Asia. But people either ignore or are stubborn. I remember asking Crumbz what he thought about the OGN club masters games and he had an entirely dismissive attitude saying something like, oh I saw this one jungler go spirit stone and madreds so I stopped watching. Obv hilarious now in hindsight. At the level NA teams play at, especially at the amateur level, being "innovative" should be the last concern because the real problem is making too many dumb mistakes that no one exploits because everyone else is equally bad. All of that came into light at MLG. BUT ITS OKAY WE ALL UNDERSTAND THE GAME. You're putting so many words into peoples' mouths it's embarrassing. Good talk.
we can't discount the idea that a lot of people silver-gold think they understand this game though.
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 04:33 red_ wrote:
Anyone know what this Syndra bug is? Currently disabled.
She can disable Blue permanently by placing it a special spot. Untargetable and doesn't spawn.
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EPT
