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all I know is people just need to look at the gambit gaming vs KT B team series, then look at EU and NA LCS games
then wonder why the fuck these LCS games are considered "professional"
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 02:56 VayneAuthority wrote:
all I know is people just need to look at the gambit gaming vs KT B team series, then look at EU and NA LCS games
then wonder why the fuck these LCS games are considered "professional"
Professional means they get paid to play.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't disagree with your statement, but I don't know what your point is in the context of this conversation.
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On March 21 2013 02:47 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:34 Serelitz wrote:On March 21 2013 02:30 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 21 2013 01:55 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here. Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at? It's completely ridiculous, we all know champ popularity varies according to many factors and actual power level is the dominant but not only one. He's given multiple examples and dismisses one because it's "weird" and the other because it's from before he started playing. Zzz no use discussing if you're as convicted in your opinion that you're using personal attacks and terms like 'we all know'. Lets just agree to disagree Actual power levels and current popularity is something that has been discussed to death in the TL lol community. His frustration with you stems from the general consensus on the sub forum that how popular a champion is can often have very little to do with whether or not it's actually good. It doesn't help that a lot of ppl here are proud of their 'hipster cried' in terms of predicting the next form hero. In any case, if you want a more recent example, then just look at zed's history and how, for the first few weeks, he was considered pretty bad.
I don't think Zed was considered really bad though - he's become a bit more popular in S3 in korea and that's finally starting to drift over to other regions. I think a lot of decent champions have the ability to get a surge in popularity, and there's a few champions that can do wonky stuff that aren't tried initially (AP trynd/Kayle being a prime example, but also support Zyra or lulu/Janna/Thresh solo lanes).
But there's a perception that straight up bad champions can be viable without buffs or meta/item changes by virtue of the champ being 'sleeper OP' which is just something I disagree with I guess. The only thing that stands out to me is Xerath becoming popular (mostly NA) but to be honest I think he's a bit overrated.
Especially when people try to use their 'hipster cred' to prevent any actual changes, like 'oh Karma is actually fine as she is, people just haven't learned to play her' when she has an ABYSMAL winrate and 0 competitive play. It's usually not as bad as it is with Karma but still, there's plenty of champions that could use actual help, not a 'wait and see' approach that doesn't lead to an actual difference 90% of the time.
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On March 21 2013 03:03 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:47 barbsq wrote:On March 21 2013 02:34 Serelitz wrote:On March 21 2013 02:30 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 21 2013 01:55 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:
[quote]
Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'.
To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:
[quote]
oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here. Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at? It's completely ridiculous, we all know champ popularity varies according to many factors and actual power level is the dominant but not only one. He's given multiple examples and dismisses one because it's "weird" and the other because it's from before he started playing. Zzz no use discussing if you're as convicted in your opinion that you're using personal attacks and terms like 'we all know'. Lets just agree to disagree Actual power levels and current popularity is something that has been discussed to death in the TL lol community. His frustration with you stems from the general consensus on the sub forum that how popular a champion is can often have very little to do with whether or not it's actually good. It doesn't help that a lot of ppl here are proud of their 'hipster cried' in terms of predicting the next form hero. In any case, if you want a more recent example, then just look at zed's history and how, for the first few weeks, he was considered pretty bad. I don't think Zed was considered really bad though - he's become a bit more popular in S3 in korea and that's finally starting to drift over to other regions. I think a lot of decent champions have the ability to get a surge in popularity, and there's a few champions that can do wonky stuff that aren't tried initially (AP trynd/Kayle being a prime example, but also support Zyra or lulu/Janna/Thresh solo lanes). But there's a perception that straight up bad champions can be viable without buffs or meta/item changes by virtue of the champ being 'sleeper OP' which is just something I disagree with I guess. The only thing that stands out to me is Xerath becoming popular (mostly NA) but to be honest I think he's a bit overrated. Especially when people try to use their 'hipster cred' to prevent any actual changes, like 'oh Karma is actually fine as she is, people just haven't learned to play her' when she has an ABYSMAL winrate and 0 competitive play. It's usually not as bad as it is with Karma but still, there's plenty of champions that could use actual help, not a 'wait and see' approach that doesn't lead to an actual difference 90% of the time.
we just gave you examples of why you're wrong and you chose to ignore, this is why GD thread is the best
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Best discussion ever though; can't understand the game if you don't play ranked 5s at high level.
So basically no one understands the game because there isn't a single 5s team that actually plays good; the overall map movements are finally starting to flesh out but most of the time a (lcs level mind you) 5s team just walks around like a bunch of silly toddlers instead of a disciplined hitsquad with purpose.
The mere fact that pro teams don't even count & deduce early ward placement, often reflected by junglers camping on top of a ward in the early game, can only lead me to one conclusion:
zulu nation doesnt understand the game cus he doesnt play on high level
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On March 21 2013 02:44 Broetchenholer wrote:
The fact that a bunch of solo queuers can form a team, qualifiy for LCS and beat the old guard weeks in (see MRN) shows that you don't need to be in a 5s team to understand 5s. If being in a 5s team would be a prerequisite to understand them, they would have never succeeded in the first place. Still they are able to perform up to a lvl of play that is at least comparabe to Dignitas, Curse, TSM and CLG. Some of them didn't even play LoL for that long before. So either they were totally gifted, or it is very simple to understand 5s strategy on a lvl to beat it consistently.
Dear zulu_nation8, please choose one of those statements or beat my weak argumentation.
How do you know theyre only solo queuers? clakeydeee actually thinks a lot about the game and has always been on teams. They are all pretty gifted mechanically and thus were able to improve so fast.
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While Gambit v KTB was clearly a much more skilled and competitive matchup than its LCS counterparts, I still think LCS is great for exposing the competitive scene to casuals as well as even people who don't play the game. Obviously the skill level isn't as high as in KR or China, but that's more due to team practice regimen if anything. Until the teams practice more effectively, we won't see the same level of competitive play in LCS as in OGN for example.
A coach who could understand the game and scout info about other teams would obviously be super useful, but a team should be able to do that themselves if they really want to be number one.
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:06 Schwopzi wrote:
Best discussion ever though; can't understand the game if you don't play ranked 5s at high level.
So basically no one understands the game because there isn't a single 5s team that actually plays good; the overall map movements are finally starting to flesh out but most of the time a (lcs level mind you) 5s team just walks around like a bunch of silly toddlers instead of a disciplined hitsquad with purpose.
The mere fact that pro teams don't even count & deduce early ward placement, often reflected by junglers camping on top of a ward in the early game, can only lead me to one conclusion:
zulu nation doesnt understand the game cus he doesnt play on high level
Stop. It doesn't matter what you're frustrated about; this doesn't solve it.
I think it's probably time to stop this line of conversation since it's going absolutely nowhere.
Can we talk about Nami instead? What are people's favorite AD's for a Nami lane? How about team comps?
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On March 21 2013 03:06 Schwopzi wrote:
The mere fact that pro teams don't even count & deduce early ward placement, often reflected by junglers camping on top of a ward in the early game, can only lead me to one conclusion:
ROFL you honestly think progamers don't keep track of wards? This is the essence of the general forum, people who think they know better than progamers and criticizes everyone they see in tournies. Meanwhile when I tell you guys you understand less than you think, it suddenly gets personal. Please show those LCS teams how to play with your hitsquad insight.
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On March 21 2013 03:08 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Can we talk about Nami instead? What are people's favorite AD's for a Nami lane? How about team comps?
If Nami was a flavor of ice cream would she be pistachio?
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:11 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:08 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Can we talk about Nami instead? What are people's favorite AD's for a Nami lane? How about team comps? If Nami was a flavor of ice cream would she be pistachio?
Is there a fish-flavored ice cream?
What happens when Angler Jax attacks a Nami or Fizz? Does it become a 6v4?
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On March 21 2013 03:13 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:11 xes wrote:On March 21 2013 03:08 AsmodeusXI wrote:
Can we talk about Nami instead? What are people's favorite AD's for a Nami lane? How about team comps? If Nami was a flavor of ice cream would she be pistachio? Is there a fish-flavored ice cream? What happens when Angler Jax attacks a Nami or Fizz? Does it become a 6v4?
What happens if your fish-flavored ice cream melts?
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On March 21 2013 03:08 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:06 Schwopzi wrote:
Best discussion ever though; can't understand the game if you don't play ranked 5s at high level.
So basically no one understands the game because there isn't a single 5s team that actually plays good; the overall map movements are finally starting to flesh out but most of the time a (lcs level mind you) 5s team just walks around like a bunch of silly toddlers instead of a disciplined hitsquad with purpose.
The mere fact that pro teams don't even count & deduce early ward placement, often reflected by junglers camping on top of a ward in the early game, can only lead me to one conclusion:
zulu nation doesnt understand the game cus he doesnt play on high level Stop. It doesn't matter what you're frustrated about; this doesn't solve it. I think it's probably time to stop this line of conversation since it's going absolutely nowhere. Can we talk about Nami instead? What are people's favorite AD's for a Nami lane? How about team comps?
Nami + MF or Nami + Varus to maximize kill potential and both bullies the shit out of weaker lanes. Nami + Caitlyn pretty easy for soloQ as well.
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It's bly against the world again isn't it 
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Nami cait should be amazing for solo Q now that her E animation is more obvious for your AD carry.
Only problem I have is whenever I play Nami I vs. some stupid kill like Rengar/Lee and keep forgetting that I'm actually super squishy.
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United States15536 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:14 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:08 AsmodeusXI wrote:On March 21 2013 03:06 Schwopzi wrote:
Best discussion ever though; can't understand the game if you don't play ranked 5s at high level.
So basically no one understands the game because there isn't a single 5s team that actually plays good; the overall map movements are finally starting to flesh out but most of the time a (lcs level mind you) 5s team just walks around like a bunch of silly toddlers instead of a disciplined hitsquad with purpose.
The mere fact that pro teams don't even count & deduce early ward placement, often reflected by junglers camping on top of a ward in the early game, can only lead me to one conclusion:
zulu nation doesnt understand the game cus he doesnt play on high level Stop. It doesn't matter what you're frustrated about; this doesn't solve it. I think it's probably time to stop this line of conversation since it's going absolutely nowhere. Can we talk about Nami instead? What are people's favorite AD's for a Nami lane? How about team comps? Nami + MF or Nami + Varus to maximize kill potential and both bullies the shit out of weaker lanes. Nami + Caitlyn pretty easy for soloQ as well.
What about something like Nami/Vayne with the various speed ups Nami grants? Could that make Vayne less weak early to an aggressive lane? Like something with a Zyra or Blitz plus a Graves?
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On March 21 2013 03:16 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 03:14 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 21 2013 03:08 AsmodeusXI wrote:On March 21 2013 03:06 Schwopzi wrote:
Best discussion ever though; can't understand the game if you don't play ranked 5s at high level.
So basically no one understands the game because there isn't a single 5s team that actually plays good; the overall map movements are finally starting to flesh out but most of the time a (lcs level mind you) 5s team just walks around like a bunch of silly toddlers instead of a disciplined hitsquad with purpose.
The mere fact that pro teams don't even count & deduce early ward placement, often reflected by junglers camping on top of a ward in the early game, can only lead me to one conclusion:
zulu nation doesnt understand the game cus he doesnt play on high level Stop. It doesn't matter what you're frustrated about; this doesn't solve it. I think it's probably time to stop this line of conversation since it's going absolutely nowhere. Can we talk about Nami instead? What are people's favorite AD's for a Nami lane? How about team comps? Nami + MF or Nami + Varus to maximize kill potential and both bullies the shit out of weaker lanes. Nami + Caitlyn pretty easy for soloQ as well. What about something like Nami/Vayne with the various speed ups Nami grants? Could that make Vayne less weak early to an aggressive lane? Like something with a Zyra or Blitz plus a Graves?
Nami is pretty strong against aggressive poke lanes like Zyra or Lulu but she´s not amazing in all-in lanes I feel. I don't have enough experience playing her vs blitz or thresh but Leona kill lanes are a nightmare.
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Also, I agree that a team needs more than individual yoloQ skill to succeed in High level competition. While I wouldn't go so far as to say "Yea u don't know jack about the game if you don't play r5s", I would definitely say there is a large element of understanding team play and chemistry that can only be achieved playing as a team. For example, one of my buddies that I run bot lane with and I completely understand how we play and are able to trust each other when deciding to all in or farm or whatever. We move as a team when we go around the map - that's not something you can pick up playing individually.
It takes a lot of understanding of the team and it's players to be able to get everyone in the same mindset compared to one person running off to farm and the other 4 grouping. It's something I don't see a lot of teams doing in NA, and while mistakes happen, they shouldn't be occurring that often in high level play. Teams should move and coordinate as one, not in groups.
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Nami ADC with Soraka or Taric.
I'm serious, its pretty good. Her base and scaling are decent-ish, and you're essentially self-reliant-- your CC in lane is great, and you can peel for yourself in teamfights!
If she was a ice cream flavor, she'd be like chocolate chip-- its good, but then you decide to put chocolate chip on some other flavor as a topping instead and its also a winner.
Like what Mondeezy said, I'm gonna use splitpush as an example. Let's look at TPA in S2 (cuz I'm a huge fanboy). One of their strats was to run a 4+1 where they'd have like Anivia and some other good stallers while Stanley splitpush with Nidalee. It worked super well. In comparison in soloQ you're one guy is trying to splitpush by himself, but it doesn't work because his teammates are derping around and can't defend cuz they aren't coordinated. I think splitpush is one of the coolest strats in the game, but its hard to pull off unless everyone is on the same page.
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On March 21 2013 03:03 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:47 barbsq wrote:On March 21 2013 02:34 Serelitz wrote:On March 21 2013 02:30 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 21 2013 01:55 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:
[quote]
Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'.
To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:
[quote]
oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here. Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at? It's completely ridiculous, we all know champ popularity varies according to many factors and actual power level is the dominant but not only one. He's given multiple examples and dismisses one because it's "weird" and the other because it's from before he started playing. Zzz no use discussing if you're as convicted in your opinion that you're using personal attacks and terms like 'we all know'. Lets just agree to disagree Actual power levels and current popularity is something that has been discussed to death in the TL lol community. His frustration with you stems from the general consensus on the sub forum that how popular a champion is can often have very little to do with whether or not it's actually good. It doesn't help that a lot of ppl here are proud of their 'hipster cried' in terms of predicting the next form hero. In any case, if you want a more recent example, then just look at zed's history and how, for the first few weeks, he was considered pretty bad. I don't think Zed was considered really bad though - he's become a bit more popular in S3 in korea and that's finally starting to drift over to other regions. I think a lot of decent champions have the ability to get a surge in popularity, and there's a few champions that can do wonky stuff that aren't tried initially (AP trynd/Kayle being a prime example, but also support Zyra or lulu/Janna/Thresh solo lanes). But there's a perception that straight up bad champions can be viable without buffs or meta/item changes by virtue of the champ being 'sleeper OP' which is just something I disagree with I guess. The only thing that stands out to me is Xerath becoming popular (mostly NA) but to be honest I think he's a bit overrated. Especially when people try to use their 'hipster cred' to prevent any actual changes, like 'oh Karma is actually fine as she is, people just haven't learned to play her' when she has an ABYSMAL winrate and 0 competitive play. It's usually not as bad as it is with Karma but still, there's plenty of champions that could use actual help, not a 'wait and see' approach that doesn't lead to an actual difference 90% of the time.
Dude, ppl thought zed was bad. Iirc, even shake (who made a highlight reel of zed shortly after release) said that while zed was fun to play, he probably needed some buffs and qol changes to make him 'viable'. If he said that again, now, ppl would probably think him to be silly. The problem is, that riot used to employ the super-reactive patching that you are looking for (apparently before you started playing), and it honestly caused much more problems than it fixed.
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EPT
