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On March 21 2013 00:38 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I am aware of what goes on in other sports. I've said multiple times that LoL is unique to other sports.
I don't understand how LoL is unique compared to other sports... having bad space judgement and getting your ball stolen seems roughly equivalent to having bad space judgement and taking bad damage in LoL, both with inhibit any play your team is trying to make. Every sport with any strategy has hidden aspects that aren't obvious to me as a spectator that bad players may not realize inhibit certain plays. So I ask how can LoL possibly be so unique as to resist pure analysis when no other competition in the world has? What about DotA 2?
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The only painful thing is that people attribute any meaning to some random assortment of champs by Elementz based on whatever. It's just a list of what he thinks is good in competitive play right now. The problem is that people take it as more than that and let it influence what they do even just a little bit.
It does a pretty terrible job at being a tier list, no criteria based on which they are judged, no reasoning for placements, no explanations, nothing.
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On March 21 2013 01:09 zulu_nation8 wrote:
sure but making something work at low elo isn't the same as making it work at high or higher elo. If it's truly broken then it should be freelo. For example ilovellamas, a 1800 player magically spamming eve to 2700 in season 2. Finding OP champions or setups is also not nearly the same as developing 5s strategies.
It's closer than you're giving it credit for though. You're essentially putting fingers in your ears and saying 'until you play high level ranked 5s you can't understand high level ranked 5s.' Especially as the volume of analyzable games increases, it will actually become likely that people who just watch and break down those games become experts at the interactions within them without being part of that level of play or anything close to it themselves. I really feel like you're on an ego trip to make it sound like because you have recently become a decent level player on a solid 5s team, you just know more than anyone else, and can't even explain it to us because we're all plebs who at best are good in solo queue.
There is absolutely no rational reason to believe that League is somehow so different from any other 'sport' in the sense that without in game physical ability and affinity, a person just cannot grasp the actual working of the game. I firmly oppose the idea that League is just 'so much different' than pro sports in this matter.
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oh ok i guess it's getting personal now
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On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:43 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:39 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Corki/Sivir are as good as all the other AD carries. People have proven time and time again that pick rate is merely a reflection of public prejudice rather than champion strength. 'People have proven?' What about competitive pick rate, or overall win rate, or competitive win rate? Saying something as extremely vague and anecdotal as 'people have proven' doesn't really give any merit to your argument. AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:43 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:39 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Corki/Sivir are as good as all the other AD carries. People have proven time and time again that pick rate is merely a reflection of public prejudice rather than champion strength. 'People have proven?' What about competitive pick rate, or overall win rate, or competitive win rate? Saying something as extremely vague and anecdotal as 'people have proven' doesn't really give any merit to your argument. AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof.
This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here.
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On March 21 2013 01:17 h3r1n6 wrote:The only painful thing is that people attribute any meaning to some random assortment of champs by Elementz based on whatever. It's just a list of what he thinks is good in competitive play right now. The problem is that people take it as more than that and let it influence what they do even just a little bit. It does a pretty terrible job at being a tier list, no criteria based on which they are judged, no reasoning for placements, no explanations, nothing.
I actually think the community is in a good spot when it comes to Elementz tier lists. I haven't had a game where someone mentioned his tiers in over a year I think.
He also used to do long videos where he would explain his reasoning for why certain champions were in certain tiers and stuff too. Ultimately any tier list in a game is pretty unimportant for casual play and is ignorable in most game's competitive play. Except maybe fighting games, and even in fighters it's usually only relevant for the very top level of play.
edit:
I don't play much Sivir but Corki is still really good. It wasn't even that long ago that he was "holy trinity" with Graves and Ezreal. He's basically back to being a better version of Ez because of his mobility and the fact that he has true damage to help him with all of the bruisers in the game. Not to mention he deals a respectable amount of magic damage and has armor shred built into his kit so picking Corki when you run like a Zed or Kha'Zix mid has significant advantages too.
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On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:43 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
'People have proven?' What about competitive pick rate, or overall win rate, or competitive win rate? Saying something as extremely vague and anecdotal as 'people have proven' doesn't really give any merit to your argument. AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:43 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
'People have proven?' What about competitive pick rate, or overall win rate, or competitive win rate? Saying something as extremely vague and anecdotal as 'people have proven' doesn't really give any merit to your argument. AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here.
Whereas you obviously contribute much more to the conversation ^^
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You can understand the overall strategy without being a high level ranked 5's player. But there are nuance's in every lane that are important to the overall strategy that may not be apparent. Let's just take a simple game where a Xin on purple goes up against amumu on blue. Both start bottom side so they can assist top lane. But purple side wants to contest blue. Shen on purple side prepares to take taunt at level 2(not skilling the point) despite being up against an elise, in addition to trying his best to keep the lane even/slightly pushed even though it means he takes extra harass from autos. Mid lane, the AP positions himself towards the top side of the lane so he can reach the fight just as quickly as the other mid laner.
Also, there are mind games. You might know the other laner is too good of a player to do X because it can be punished, but he does it. You decide to immediately back off instead of engaging, and congrats, you just dodged a jungler gank despite not having seen anything with wards. In soloQ this basically doesn't exist until the very high levels of play because you can just assume the other guy is misplaying half the time.
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On March 21 2013 01:47 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:35 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:22 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:14 Wrag wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:43 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
'People have proven?' What about competitive pick rate, or overall win rate, or competitive win rate? Saying something as extremely vague and anecdotal as 'people have proven' doesn't really give any merit to your argument. AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. Volibear, Xin to some extent, hec, shyv, naut, top lane teemo, rumble... All of these went from rare picks to fotm without significant changes (or no changes at all in some cases) at some point. Granted some just happened to benefit from meta changes or large scale general mechanics changes (S3, S2 jungle, etc) but yes; The majority is often 'wrong'. To comment on the first 3 (and rumble partially though he was already decently popular when I started) - all of them benefitted a LOT from item changes and jungle changes. Can't comment on the rest since that was before my time again. Volibear and xin both benefitted from jungle changes that made junglers without AoE better, locket is an amazing item on both as well (nevermind how good health stacking is for Volibear). Hecarim got a lot better because (especially in solo Q) early ganking became a lot less important and wards became a lot more commonplace. Add to that Frozen Fist + Spirit of the Elder Lizard both being AMAZING items for him. Rumble got a big boost thanks to Liandry's, it's synergy with Rylai's and in competitive play thanks to his 1v2 ability. I agree that sometimes a new champ pops up that was very underrated and that people sometimes underestimate champions (Kha'zix is a major example but I think Sejuani in solo Q as well). But it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does. This frustrates me more than ever because I really, really like Quinn but I also think she's really, really bad, while a lot of people are saying she's fine or even sleeper OP. On March 20 2013 23:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 23:05 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 23:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:58 Serelitz wrote:On March 20 2013 22:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:On March 20 2013 22:43 Serelitz wrote:
[quote]
'People have proven?' What about competitive pick rate, or overall win rate, or competitive win rate? Saying something as extremely vague and anecdotal as 'people have proven' doesn't really give any merit to your argument. AP trynd would be the most recent example, something that was played by very few people before his recent nerf, suddenly gained traction and afaik in NA only, but turned out to be so OP that it warranted a hotfix. So I guess "people" haven't proven, as much as the history of LoL changes. AP Trynd is a weird way to play a different champ though, similar to Ssong popularizing Kayle mid. That's not comparable to a champion in his 'intended' role. Ezreal before he became fotm then. The point is there are things everyone misses and everyone is wrong about, and it happens way more often than people seem to remember. Ezreal became 'fotm' before I started playing which is more than half a year ago. If it happens so often I'm sure you can think of a more recent example. oh ok lets just disregard that example then because you didnt start playing till mid season 2. If your only example is 9 months ago then it really isn't very often now is it. I make an argument based on the history of this game, you tell me I'm wrong then admit you don't know anything that happened before 6 months ago. I started following league seriously just when Ezreal became popular so yeah, I don't know exact details about the longer history. That still doesn't refute what I said - if it happens so often, you shouldn't have to go 9 months back to find proof. This has gotta be the worst post I've ever read in here.
Um... how so? He's not saying that whatever happened before he joined is irrelevant, he's simply pointing out a major possibly flaw in the argument. Nothing he said was bad in this post. Indeed, if it happens so often then there shouldn't be any trouble finding more recent examples. What exactly are you looking at?
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what's a major flaw in my argument?
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On March 21 2013 01:54 Amui wrote:
You can understand the overall strategy without being a high level ranked 5's player. But there are nuance's in every lane that are important to the overall strategy that may not be apparent. Let's just take a simple game where a Xin on purple goes up against amumu on blue. Both start bottom side so they can assist top lane. But purple side wants to contest blue. Shen on purple side prepares to take taunt at level 2(not skilling the point) despite being up against an elise, in addition to trying his best to keep the lane even/slightly pushed even though it means he takes extra harass from autos. Mid lane, the AP positions himself towards the top side of the lane so he can reach the fight just as quickly as the other mid laner.
Also, there are mind games. You might know the other laner is too good of a player to do X because it can be punished, but he does it. You decide to immediately back off instead of engaging, and congrats, you just dodged a jungler gank despite not having seen anything with wards. In soloQ this basically doesn't exist until the very high levels of play because you can just assume the other guy is misplaying half the time.
You're basically describing why better players are better players. Those interactions have nothing to do with a person having a sense for strategy in a more macro sense. Worse players are well aware of the existence of everything you are talking about, they just suck at taking advantage of them, or even remembering to think about/do them in game. They lack the multitasking ability, the reaction time, the mechanics, the natural affinity and intuition for the game that allows them to make 'the plays, the plays!!!' This is not mutually exclusive to being knowledgeable in any way.
Even if I didn't know about what you're talking about prior to this post, I now do know, and can consider it in future games. It really is that simple. There is literally no reason a gold level player, especially one that MegaZero(someone who has been playing this game longer than anyone not on Riot's original dev team or in F&F alpha if there was one) said was gifted as far as knowledge and ability to analyze the game, could be a coach for top level players.
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Mmmm... This discussion makes me pine for an official replay system/database.
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Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level
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Have we done a discussion on boots of swiftness on champs that are easily kited (Garen, udyr, sion?). Obviously losing the tank stats/tenacity hurts, but I'm interested in if the slow reduction has made any one try it out.
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On March 21 2013 02:13 Vanka wrote:
Have we done a discussion on boots of swiftness on champs that are easily kited (Garen, udyr, sion?). Obviously losing the tank stats/tenacity hurts, but I'm interested in if the slow reduction has made any one try it out.
Every time I've played Udyr and Garen this season I run boots of swiftness unless they have an absolutely absurd amount of CC. Works pretty well, but you can feel the defensive stat loss.
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On March 21 2013 02:13 Vanka wrote:
Have we done a discussion on boots of swiftness on champs that are easily kited (Garen, udyr, sion?). Obviously losing the tank stats/tenacity hurts, but I'm interested in if the slow reduction has made any one try it out.
The only champ where I'd take Swifties over Merc treads if I had problems being CCed/kited is Vi, because she consistently self-slows and can have a problem being kited without red (which happens if you give it to your ADC I guess).
Even then it's so-so - it's best uses are in the midgame for catching up to people who you've already engaged.
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On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level
The guy MegaZero found? Some Korean coach?
I don't need to have one for there to exist one.
Hell, nowhere in my or anyone else's argument here has anyone said that person even has to exist currently. The conversation started because MRN completely discredited a coach one of their own players presented on the merit of his ranking before any other interaction, and why that is not grounds to decide a person is incapable for the position.
I gave this much more respect as a response than I should've considering it's just a flat out fallacy in the first place.
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ive no idea who youre talking about, you seriously underestimate how little people who think they understand the game but play at a low level actually understand the game.
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On March 21 2013 02:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Please give an example of someone who does not play 5s but understands 5s strategy at a reasonable level
Nate Silver. Or at least he would if he turned his attention to LoL.
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these people are leprechauns to me
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EPT
