On March 03 2013 02:54 Keniji wrote: I'm all for riot making beautiful skins, and they are getting better and better at this.
but it's really going to be a problem if they continue altering skill shots in a way that they are much harder to see (lux, iblitz)
Do they not notice this in testing, or do they not care, or am I just blind and need to get used to it (which is probably problematic, too, considering how often you see a specific skin)
I don't see a problem. It's such a minuscule problem compared to side imbalances.
People crying over skins making the game harder really hurt my brain
I don't really get that.
And it's not about making the game harder. WTF?! It's about giving one person an advantage and the other a disadvantage.
And when you say it like that in general, wouldn't you have a problem with a skin where you can't see the skillshots?
You act like it's nothing when the visibility of skills can obviously have a big influence on the power level / balance of a champ.
no because i dont have any skins i cant see the skill shots for
ADCs do synergize with all the stats of BotRK and it is gold efficient but I still don't think it'll match crit scaling. But throw 40% aspd on any AD item and it'll be good.
On March 03 2013 12:04 TheYango wrote: If you're getting BotRK at all, it's still best as first item. The fact that it can't crit hurts it later more than the increased enemy HP helps relative to other options.
Again...
This depends on the adc. Graves is better off with BT because of his ad scaling and the lack of time he spends auto attacking full health targets early. Similarly with ezreal. Graves does better with BotRK second over pd since BT doesn't have any crit interaction and ezreal just like in the previous patch is most efficient with LW second depending on how much he is auto attacking.
Carries which would get ie first like cait and Ashe can get the item 4th when they would normally get BT. This is because ie, pd , LW is still the strongest three item timing and BotRK has similar dps to BT after those three
There are carries that use BotRK well (even as a first buy) but it is absolutely untrue that you should buy it first if you're buying it as there do exist many carries who will want to buy it fourth or second
On March 03 2013 11:15 Cixah wrote: Maybe its a newb trap, but it seems pretty good on paper. I'm not going to complain about free attack speed on an item i already built regularly on trist.
Its a newb trap because, aisde from maybe Kog, Vayne, trist, its not good on paper.
On March 03 2013 11:22 Ketara wrote: Wait, did BotRK rush go from completely overpowered to a noob trap in just one day? What?
No, just lots of people doing math they don't understand, forgetting to take into account burst, item timing, AD scaling abilities allies, and other beneficial interactions, seeing that BotRK as a single item will kill many targets fastest.. when solely auto attacking them from full health and thinking its a must buy first item.
Its good, but not that good.
what a joke. it's a reasonable item without EITHER of the bonus effects.
On ADCs? No, if you don't synergize with it, it really isn't that good. Especially if your skills have AD ratios. ADCs generally cannot afford to buy utility over dps and it's very very weak at finishing people off.
2900 gold worth of completely standard AD carry stats for 2850. It's basically the same as the base items without including either of the bonus effects. They don't have to be very strong to push this over the edge, and they actually are pretty good.
Again...
Both BT and ie have similar value profiles. Ie being worth 4050 before the passive and BT being worth up to 4750. Gold stat efficiency is not enough to justify the item as a purchase.
BotRK on many carries is simply not very good as a first item. In order to make the estimation that it is you must ignore that champions do ability damage and that allies do damage.
The active is very strong that much is true but the actual auto attack damage that you will do is vastly overestimated by looking at enemy health vales and assuming you will be shooting at the top value or the average value for an entire fight. But this is not the way fights work. Everyone uses abilities first both to burst enemies down but also so that they may have a chance of using the skill again later. It is only after these abilities are used that champions spend any serious amount of Ike auto attacking using an uninterrupted auto attack animation.
Only a handful of champions have the attack speed scaling needed to justify the item as a first buy while also lacking ad scaling abilities or other advantageous interactions which put other items clearly ahead
On March 03 2013 12:04 TheYango wrote: If you're getting BotRK at all, it's still best as first item. The fact that it can't crit hurts it later more than the increased enemy HP helps relative to other options.
Again...
This depends on the adc. Graves is better off with BT because of his ad scaling and the lack of time he spends auto attacking full health targets early. Similarly with ezreal. Graves does better with BotRK second over pd since BT doesn't have any crit interaction and ezreal just like in the previous patch is most efficient with LW second depending on how much he is auto attacking.
Carries which would get ie first like cait and Ashe can get the item 4th when they would normally get BT. This is because ie, pd , LW is still the strongest three item timing and BotRK has similar dps to BT after those three
There are carries that use BotRK well (even as a first buy) but it is absolutely untrue that you should buy it first if you're buying it as there do exist many carries who will want to buy it fourth or second
On March 03 2013 11:15 Cixah wrote: Maybe its a newb trap, but it seems pretty good on paper. I'm not going to complain about free attack speed on an item i already built regularly on trist.
Its a newb trap because, aisde from maybe Kog, Vayne, trist, its not good on paper.
On March 03 2013 11:22 Ketara wrote: Wait, did BotRK rush go from completely overpowered to a noob trap in just one day? What?
No, just lots of people doing math they don't understand, forgetting to take into account burst, item timing, AD scaling abilities allies, and other beneficial interactions, seeing that BotRK as a single item will kill many targets fastest.. when solely auto attacking them from full health and thinking its a must buy first item.
Its good, but not that good.
what a joke. it's a reasonable item without EITHER of the bonus effects.
On ADCs? No, if you don't synergize with it, it really isn't that good. Especially if your skills have AD ratios. ADCs generally cannot afford to buy utility over dps and it's very very weak at finishing people off.
2900 gold worth of completely standard AD carry stats for 2850. It's basically the same as the base items without including either of the bonus effects. They don't have to be very strong to push this over the edge, and they actually are pretty good.
Again...
Both BT and ie have similar value profiles. Ie being worth 4050 before the passive and BT being worth up to 4750. Gold stat efficiency is not enough to justify the item as a purchase.
BotRK on many carries is simply not very good as a first item. In order to make the estimation that it is you must ignore that champions do ability damage and that allies do damage.
The active is very strong that much is true but the actual auto attack damage that you will do is vastly overestimated by looking at enemy health vales and assuming you will be shooting at the top value or the average value for an entire fight. But this is not the way fights work. Everyone uses abilities first both to burst enemies down but also so that they may have a chance of using the skill again later. It is only after these abilities are used that champions spend any serious amount of Ike auto attacking using an uninterrupted auto attack animation.
Only a handful of champions have the attack speed scaling needed to justify the item as a first buy while also lacking ad scaling abilities or other advantageous interactions which put other items clearly ahead
ah you're using the wiki? I calculated botrk based on most efficient base sources whereas the wiki uses least efficient, so it makes infinity edge/thirster look better by comparison with these different valuations. Using the wiki's method botrk is actually 300 gold above value before either the active or the passive. Comparatively ridiculous.
It's silly of me to even argue about this though. Those of you who absolutely cannot understand how good this item is are just going to be puzzled or make excuses in a few weeks when it gets nerfed, and then we'll be back where we were, so why bother?
On March 03 2013 12:04 TheYango wrote: If you're getting BotRK at all, it's still best as first item. The fact that it can't crit hurts it later more than the increased enemy HP helps relative to other options.
Again...
This depends on the adc. Graves is better off with BT because of his ad scaling and the lack of time he spends auto attacking full health targets early. Similarly with ezreal. Graves does better with BotRK second over pd since BT doesn't have any crit interaction and ezreal just like in the previous patch is most efficient with LW second depending on how much he is auto attacking.
Carries which would get ie first like cait and Ashe can get the item 4th when they would normally get BT. This is because ie, pd , LW is still the strongest three item timing and BotRK has similar dps to BT after those three
There are carries that use BotRK well (even as a first buy) but it is absolutely untrue that you should buy it first if you're buying it as there do exist many carries who will want to buy it fourth or second
On March 03 2013 11:15 Cixah wrote: Maybe its a newb trap, but it seems pretty good on paper. I'm not going to complain about free attack speed on an item i already built regularly on trist.
Its a newb trap because, aisde from maybe Kog, Vayne, trist, its not good on paper.
On March 03 2013 11:22 Ketara wrote: Wait, did BotRK rush go from completely overpowered to a noob trap in just one day? What?
No, just lots of people doing math they don't understand, forgetting to take into account burst, item timing, AD scaling abilities allies, and other beneficial interactions, seeing that BotRK as a single item will kill many targets fastest.. when solely auto attacking them from full health and thinking its a must buy first item.
Its good, but not that good.
what a joke. it's a reasonable item without EITHER of the bonus effects.
On ADCs? No, if you don't synergize with it, it really isn't that good. Especially if your skills have AD ratios. ADCs generally cannot afford to buy utility over dps and it's very very weak at finishing people off.
2900 gold worth of completely standard AD carry stats for 2850. It's basically the same as the base items without including either of the bonus effects. They don't have to be very strong to push this over the edge, and they actually are pretty good.
Again...
Both BT and ie have similar value profiles. Ie being worth 4050 before the passive and BT being worth up to 4750. Gold stat efficiency is not enough to justify the item as a purchase.
BotRK on many carries is simply not very good as a first item. In order to make the estimation that it is you must ignore that champions do ability damage and that allies do damage.
The active is very strong that much is true but the actual auto attack damage that you will do is vastly overestimated by looking at enemy health vales and assuming you will be shooting at the top value or the average value for an entire fight. But this is not the way fights work. Everyone uses abilities first both to burst enemies down but also so that they may have a chance of using the skill again later. It is only after these abilities are used that champions spend any serious amount of Ike auto attacking using an uninterrupted auto attack animation.
Only a handful of champions have the attack speed scaling needed to justify the item as a first buy while also lacking ad scaling abilities or other advantageous interactions which put other items clearly ahead
How the heck do you get that IE worth more gold than its cost with only base stats? The combine adds 0 AD and 10% crit chance. I'm pretty sure 10% crit chance is worth less than 645g. LoL wiki uses longsword and brawler's gloves for gold efficiency to get 4050g value, but if you use BFS/cloak of agility values, you get a gold efficiency of only 3627g. You absolutely need to use the unique passive on IE to make it cost efficient at all.
So. From the ADCarry POV, I think BOTRK is much, much, less efficient than advertised. Now, on champs like Kog, or Vayne who value AS much more than other ADCarries I can see it as BT-replacement.
BUT, what I have been noticing (because I decided to try and notice this), is that an AD Carry almost never attacks a full HP target. In fact, you rarely attack a target with more than 3/4 HP (and when you do it is in a poke war, and with a spell). You are more of the cleanup crew, almost like Katarina, except more sustain.
Both BT and ie have similar value profiles. Ie being worth 4050 before the passive and BT being worth up to 4750. Gold stat efficiency is not enough to justify the item as a purchase.
BotRK on many carries is simply not very good as a first item. In order to make the estimation that it is you must ignore that champions do ability damage and that allies do damage.
You are ignoring one thing about BotRK which is not belied by the pure cost-efficiency stats.
BotRK gives ROUNDED stats. BT and IE give lopsided stats. Because a champ's DPS is maximized by a mix of stats, BotRK will be a stronger 1-item timing than IE or BT because 5k worth of mixed stats is inherently stronger than 5k worth of lopsided stats.
BT and IE have better on-paper cost-effectiveness, but due to the rounded nature of BotRK's stats, they don't exceed it in practical effectiveness until several items later. IE and BT need to be paired with various other items to reach maximum effectiveness, whereas BotRK is a superior item at the 1-2 item timings.
Best first item AD carry, autoattack bruiser, AD caster looking for another spell to burst with... what doesn't it work on ~_~
When you're looking at cleanup crew AD carry (I disagree with your assessment, honestly) then that active does a LOT of work, especially when you're getting dived by meaty bruisers and then you just nuke 300 health off of them and heal the same amount AND now can kite them into oblivion.
The other thing about having an item that is a strong 1-2 item timing DPS item is that it again opens the door to various survivability options earlier in the game rather than requiring you to continually build up damage without room to get survivability.
Darius + Karthus + BotRK jungler + BotRK AD carry... I think I'm onto something here.
And yeah I've been considering BotRK without the active and honestly that's the only thing about the item that I have a problem with. I think that they could increase the cost a little or nerf the active, but the item stats are really nice and I don't think that they are a problem by themselves.
I got a bug in game where I can't move or press anything but I can still see my teammates and minions moving around, so I closed the game and it wouldn't let me relaunch the game. Tried closing client and logging in and now I can't do that
On March 03 2013 16:26 nosliw wrote: Trynd new counter to Xerath. If Trynd E into a Xerath Q, he gains gold, cs, exp as if he killed minions!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDvrMt8mHAk
That's so silly, I can't even imagine what kind of coding bug would cause result ha.
A lot of spells are actually coded using untargetable units. There have been a couple bugs that resulted from similar things in the past (Nocturne Q particles counting as units that healed Trundle when they "died", Singed poison gas particles counting as units that triggered the CD reduction on Alistar's E when they "died").
On March 03 2013 16:26 nosliw wrote: Trynd new counter to Xerath. If Trynd E into a Xerath Q, he gains gold, cs, exp as if he killed minions!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDvrMt8mHAk
That's so silly, I can't even imagine what kind of coding bug would cause result ha.
that is actually kinda big. wonder how much gold and stuff you got for it tho?
Both BT and ie have similar value profiles. Ie being worth 4050 before the passive and BT being worth up to 4750. Gold stat efficiency is not enough to justify the item as a purchase.
BotRK on many carries is simply not very good as a first item. In order to make the estimation that it is you must ignore that champions do ability damage and that allies do damage.
You are ignoring one thing about BotRK which is not belied by the pure cost-efficiency stats.
BotRK gives ROUNDED stats. BT and IE give lopsided stats. Because a champ's DPS is maximized by a mix of stats, BotRK will be a stronger 1-item timing than IE or BT because 5k worth of mixed stats is inherently stronger than 5k worth of lopsided stats.
BT and IE have better on-paper cost-effectiveness, but due to the rounded nature of BotRK's stats, they don't exceed it in practical effectiveness until several items later. IE and BT need to be paired with various other items to reach maximum effectiveness, whereas BotRK is a superior item at the 1-2 item timings.
Only if you use all of those rounded stats and since most ADCs don't get as much use out of attack speed as they do ad, due to ad scaling abilities and auto attack resets the fact that BotRK has rounded stats does not matter.
Is it more efficient to rush BT or get bf sword and then zeal? The bf to zeal has rounded stats similar in strength to botrk (minus its passive) but actually persuing this course of action leaves your damage lacking for most ADCs since that almost all have some sort of interaction which advantages the unbalanced purchase path.
Yes if you're just auto attacking BotRK is very strong but you're rarely "just auto attacking". The only ADC which just auto attacks is Kog and maybe trist(but trist with her attack speed steroid has be eficial interaction with lopsided stats). Not even vayne has perfect scaling with attack speed due to her tumbling( though she does scale harder with as due to her ad steroid ult and w).
This leaves maybe three ADCs who fit the bill to take advantage of the superior rounded 1 item timing stats on BotRK. I mean many ADCs pre BotRK AS changes would not get any significant attack speed item until the third or fourth buy. Are we to believe that these characters are suddenly better with the rounded stats when they were not before?
On March 03 2013 16:26 nosliw wrote: Trynd new counter to Xerath. If Trynd E into a Xerath Q, he gains gold, cs, exp as if he killed minions!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDvrMt8mHAk
That's so silly, I can't even imagine what kind of coding bug would cause result ha.
that is actually kinda big. wonder how much gold and stuff you got for it tho?
400ish gold per spin
15x77 exp per spin.
Its like 15 max cs for non range extended.
Extending range just seems to spread out the minions, not add more.
Tyr gets rage, lvl 1 tyr doesnt have damage to kill it
<100 damage spin doesnt give gold, gets rage.
108 damage spin gets it
Doesn't seem to matter what lvl Xerath q
Akali e/brand w doesnt kill them.
Avarice/tf passive both give gold from them, and it shows up as cs.
EPT
