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On February 20 2013 04:40 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:36 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:On February 20 2013 04:19 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:18 Scip wrote:On February 20 2013 04:13 ketchup wrote:
I'm willing to agree with Two Down here in regards to having a real LoL forum/ LoL support on TL. If TL were interested, I'm 100% sure it could have easily been done. Not to mention, I'm fairly certain they could have had enough volunteers when the LoL section stop being just a thread, and got it's own subsection under Sports and Games. I just don't think they were interested. The staff size to me is just the PR answer they(higher TL staff) are willing to give now. Well, what do you think the actual answer is if not "not enough staff/people interested". "We hate LoL with our hearts and souls and do not want to support it any more than necessary"? Or maybe "We have a secret deal with Steam where we help DotA2 flourish while sink the boat of LoL"? Perhaps it is "We could easily do it, but we have been consumed by fame and wish to work no further" Wait, Ill get my conspirationist friend and ask him if he could somehow get the Illuminati and Knights Templar in there. I'm not saying it's some sort of conspiracy. I'm saying they just did not want to do it. You are putting extra words where there are none. It's pretty simple. The PR answer is "staff issues", but you've been around the TL LoL community long enough, you know that cannot be true at all. You guys are saying all this about "it's unlikely to be staff issues," and while there may be some bigger things here lurking under the surface, the fact is is that we only recently got a big enough staff to even do weekly LCS coverage, much less do larger and "more important" features. Not to MENTION administration, moderation, etc etc. If you want to challenge the idea that the problem with a dedicated TL LoL subforum is a lack of staffing, volunteer your time and energy to combat our lack of staffing, kthx. You do not need to defend TL even if you are staff. I'm not hating on you lot at all. I appreciate the work yall do. I think you guys finally, FINALLY got some support to look for more staffing for LoL related things. The problem I see is that it took way too long, and we all know it. Basically this. Everyone who has been here for a while, lurker or poster, is aware of the quality content that this forum can put forth, even in an informal GD thread. The main problem is we just have never had a lot of incentive to put it together. Look at how long it took to get champ threads in the first place. My point is simply that if TL wanted to support LoL it easily could have, and chose not to.
I don't really think TL is in this for the money or anything. The LoL community they have is still pretty small and LoL isn't like Starcraft or DotA in that it doesn't have a long eSports history.
TL obviously stands to make more ad revenue if they invested in League. But I'm sure the same could be said about any game. They don't care about ad revenue it's just that most of the TL staff don't really care about League and there isn't much demand for TL to invest in League the way they have invested in Starcraft or DotA. Also maybe I'm just cynical but I feel that if TL announced that they were taking up League the same way they did SC2/DotA2 there'd be more hate for it than joy on this site.
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On February 20 2013 04:21 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:14 Zdrastochye wrote:On February 20 2013 04:03 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 20 2013 04:00 Seuss wrote:On February 20 2013 03:52 Two_DoWn wrote:
The kind of sad thing here is that TL had an opportunity (possibly still has one) to become THE preeminent LoL information and community site in the world.
But they wont do it, and at this point it seems pretty clear that they never will, simply because the SC2 community that the site caters too is too immature to handle such a change. If I recall correctly the problem wasn't any concern about the SC2 community, but the lack of available staff. There were enough staff members interested in DotA 2 for TL to support it, but not enough for LoL. Your telling me that they couldnt get enough decent people here to support that? Sorry, callin bullshit on that one. There are enough respected people here to where if TL really wanted to make the expansion happen, they could. On February 20 2013 04:01 onlywonderboy wrote:On February 20 2013 03:52 Two_DoWn wrote:
The kind of sad thing here is that TL had an opportunity (possibly still has one) to become THE preeminent LoL information and community site in the world.
But they wont do it, and at this point it seems pretty clear that they never will, simply because the SC2 community that the site caters too is too immature to handle such a change. As Neo has stated several times in the past, a big issue with TL picking up LoL officially has a lot to do with the staff size. Back when TL picked up Dota 2 most of the LoL write-ups we being done regularly by Neo, JBright, and Moon, not nearly enough for front page coverage. And people that were already on staff favored Dota 2 over LoL, which hey, if they like Dota 2 better I can see why they'd enjoy writing about it more. As time has gone on the staff has expanded and we are taking steps to produce even more high quality content. In time we hope we can prove we deserve just as much recognition as either SC or Dota. Problem was we had no place to put it. And again, if TL actually wanted to expand, they could very easily take respected members of this subforum, staff them, then expand. And remember, our subforum was ALWAYS bigger than the Dota 2 one, and they were able to scale into a full subforum easily enough. Do we need to become the prominent LoL coverage site? Maybe it's a stupid question but I feel it warrants asking, as I am quite content with the community we've fostered in our little oasis tucked deep within TL. We have our name out there a decent amount, and we provide a community for people who want to do more than watch silly/funny videos and come up with clever quotes for them. We have several high profile players posting regularly, and have the absolute gem in the form of Yango. Need to? No. But considering the dearth of actually decent coverage communication on anything that isnt TL, it would certainly help the overall health of the community. Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:18 Scip wrote:On February 20 2013 04:13 ketchup wrote:
I'm willing to agree with Two Down here in regards to having a real LoL forum/ LoL support on TL. If TL were interested, I'm 100% sure it could have easily been done. Not to mention, I'm fairly certain they could have had enough volunteers when the LoL section stop being just a thread, and got it's own subsection under Sports and Games. I just don't think they were interested. The staff size to me is just the PR answer they(higher TL staff) are willing to give now. Well, what do you think the actual answer is if not "not enough staff/people interested". "We hate LoL with our hearts and souls and do not want to support it any more than necessary"? Or maybe "We have a secret deal with Steam where we help DotA2 flourish while sink the boat of LoL"? Perhaps it is "We could easily do it, but we have been consumed by fame and wish to work no further" Wait, Ill get my conspirationist friend and ask him if he could somehow get the Illuminati and Knights Templar in there. The simple answer is: our site was based on SC2, the vast majority of the SC2 community despises LoL, and we dont want to piss them off. If you have been around long enough, you would realize this is CERTAINLY a pressure that the staff face, even if they dont want to admit it. It isnt a conspiracy. Its the simple truth.
I worry about the quality of LoL discussion if TL becomes more mainstream. Part of the reason there is a dearth of quality discussion about LoL is because the majority of the discussion out there is crap. Do I need to say anything more than "mobafire"? I think that TL tends to attract people on the high end of the skill bell curve, so the discussion here is better.
This subforum is great for figuring out new item trends, fotm chars, and theorycraft. Forget TL writing staff. With significant TL LoL exposure, the moderators are going to have to squash so many threads about malady first Kayle builds that they'll go insane.
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United States15536 Posts
On February 20 2013 04:36 Two_DoWn wrote:
Your telling me Neo, MB and J would do all that work if 0 people were going to ever look at it?
Maybe they would, but I doubt it.
I know that personally, if I was going to put a ton of effort into putting together great content that I would have the opportunity to spread it to the widest possible audience because I believe that my message matters and helps people.
I'm saying that they do it for the subforum and the subforum alone, not any promise of greater glory that might come from "official" TL sponsorship.
Look, I don't mean to sound irate, but the idea that there isn't any legitimacy to the "understaffed" reasoning is just not true. And considering the call is consistently going out for more volunteers to STAFF TL LoL and we're STILL understaffed while people complain about TL LoL not being picked up is really galling. Especially when both Neo and MB have explained all this on multiple occasions.
Sigh. I know everyone is just looking out for the best needs of the subforum, so I'm not annoyed at y'all. It's just frustrating for these insinuations to come out while there are still obvious problems with our in-house stuff. Even if TL were ready for us, we're not entirely ready for them.
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On February 20 2013 04:40 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:36 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:On February 20 2013 04:19 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:18 Scip wrote:On February 20 2013 04:13 ketchup wrote:
I'm willing to agree with Two Down here in regards to having a real LoL forum/ LoL support on TL. If TL were interested, I'm 100% sure it could have easily been done. Not to mention, I'm fairly certain they could have had enough volunteers when the LoL section stop being just a thread, and got it's own subsection under Sports and Games. I just don't think they were interested. The staff size to me is just the PR answer they(higher TL staff) are willing to give now. Well, what do you think the actual answer is if not "not enough staff/people interested". "We hate LoL with our hearts and souls and do not want to support it any more than necessary"? Or maybe "We have a secret deal with Steam where we help DotA2 flourish while sink the boat of LoL"? Perhaps it is "We could easily do it, but we have been consumed by fame and wish to work no further" Wait, Ill get my conspirationist friend and ask him if he could somehow get the Illuminati and Knights Templar in there. I'm not saying it's some sort of conspiracy. I'm saying they just did not want to do it. You are putting extra words where there are none. It's pretty simple. The PR answer is "staff issues", but you've been around the TL LoL community long enough, you know that cannot be true at all. You guys are saying all this about "it's unlikely to be staff issues," and while there may be some bigger things here lurking under the surface, the fact is is that we only recently got a big enough staff to even do weekly LCS coverage, much less do larger and "more important" features. Not to MENTION administration, moderation, etc etc. If you want to challenge the idea that the problem with a dedicated TL LoL subforum is a lack of staffing, volunteer your time and energy to combat our lack of staffing, kthx. You do not need to defend TL even if you are staff. I'm not hating on you lot at all. I appreciate the work yall do. I think you guys finally, FINALLY got some support to look for more staffing for LoL related things. The problem I see is that it took way too long, and we all know it. Basically this. Everyone who has been here for a while, lurker or poster, is aware of the quality content that this forum can put forth, even in an informal GD thread. The main problem is we just have never had a lot of incentive to put it together. Look at how long it took to get champ threads in the first place. My point is simply that if TL wanted to support LoL it easily could have, and chose not to.
I agree, TL had the resources to expand LoL subforum into a fully supported forum; and content provider. But, sometimes just because you have the ability to do something that doesn't mean you should. LoL was still in it's early stages when they chose to expand to Dota/Dota2. The biggest reason they chose not to do it had to do with pedigree. LoL was still immature as hell, the international scene was weak, only a handful of LAN LoL Tourneys, and didn't have the type of fanbase they were looking for. Do you really think TL LoL would be any good when it's flooded with 12 yearolds like /r/leagueoflegends is? Just imagine the amount of inane "check out this highlight vid of a lvl 22 guy getting a pentakill"; do you really want that? The issue wasn't TL wasn't ready for LoL, LoL wasn't ready for TL.
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On February 20 2013 04:32 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:30 Lounge wrote:
I don't think people realize just how much work actually goes into what the staff does. I mean, look at our champion guides, a lot of them are fairly outdated and haven't seen a lot of discussion. If we really have a community that's wanting and able to be an LoL hub we should probably start there.
And that's just something you can do without much legwork. Add in watching games/replays from all over (not just what matchups caught your fancy during the weekend LCS) and analyzing the whys and whats and you're opening a very large workload.
Most people just don't have the time/commitment for that though. So yes, it very much is staff issues. Incentives matter though. If we have no reason to believe we will ever be recognized for our work, why .
Actually for creative work so long as basic needs are taken care of incentives don't tend to matter. Whether or not your basic needs are taken care of probably can't be fulfilled by this website. The question of incentive largely comes down to where you will post your work once you've done it.
Ie if you are not posting your work where you can currently get recognition we can reasonably surmise that you do not care about recognition.
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On February 20 2013 04:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:40 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 20 2013 04:36 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:On February 20 2013 04:19 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:18 Scip wrote:On February 20 2013 04:13 ketchup wrote:
I'm willing to agree with Two Down here in regards to having a real LoL forum/ LoL support on TL. If TL were interested, I'm 100% sure it could have easily been done. Not to mention, I'm fairly certain they could have had enough volunteers when the LoL section stop being just a thread, and got it's own subsection under Sports and Games. I just don't think they were interested. The staff size to me is just the PR answer they(higher TL staff) are willing to give now. Well, what do you think the actual answer is if not "not enough staff/people interested". "We hate LoL with our hearts and souls and do not want to support it any more than necessary"? Or maybe "We have a secret deal with Steam where we help DotA2 flourish while sink the boat of LoL"? Perhaps it is "We could easily do it, but we have been consumed by fame and wish to work no further" Wait, Ill get my conspirationist friend and ask him if he could somehow get the Illuminati and Knights Templar in there. I'm not saying it's some sort of conspiracy. I'm saying they just did not want to do it. You are putting extra words where there are none. It's pretty simple. The PR answer is "staff issues", but you've been around the TL LoL community long enough, you know that cannot be true at all. You guys are saying all this about "it's unlikely to be staff issues," and while there may be some bigger things here lurking under the surface, the fact is is that we only recently got a big enough staff to even do weekly LCS coverage, much less do larger and "more important" features. Not to MENTION administration, moderation, etc etc. If you want to challenge the idea that the problem with a dedicated TL LoL subforum is a lack of staffing, volunteer your time and energy to combat our lack of staffing, kthx. You do not need to defend TL even if you are staff. I'm not hating on you lot at all. I appreciate the work yall do. I think you guys finally, FINALLY got some support to look for more staffing for LoL related things. The problem I see is that it took way too long, and we all know it. Basically this. Everyone who has been here for a while, lurker or poster, is aware of the quality content that this forum can put forth, even in an informal GD thread. The main problem is we just have never had a lot of incentive to put it together. Look at how long it took to get champ threads in the first place. My point is simply that if TL wanted to support LoL it easily could have, and chose not to. I agree, TL had the resources to expand LoL subforum into a fully supported forum; and content provider. But, sometimes just because you have the ability to do something that doesn't mean you should. LoL was still in it's early stages when they chose to expand to Dota/Dota2. The biggest reason they chose not to do it had to do with pedigree. LoL was still immature as hell, the international scene was weak, only a handful of LAN LoL Tourneys, and didn't have the type of fanbase they were looking for. Do you really think TL LoL would be any good when it's flooded with 12 yearolds like /r/leagueoflegends is? Just imagine the amount of inane "check out this highlight vid of a lvl 22 guy getting a pentakill"; do you really want that? The issue wasn't TL wasn't ready for LoL, LoL wasn't ready for TL.
I don't think this is true at all. DotA2 wasn't as big as LoL when they expanded to it and still isn't. The staff and most of the site isn't interested in League so there's no real reason for TL to become a LoL site.
The Korean and Chinese scenes was already huge when TL went into DotA2 and it's even bigger now.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
This is slightly off on a tangent, but if you read some of the posts in DotA strategy they really give you a headache. Def do not want to have that happen here. Or even worse, SC2 Strat Forum before the Great Purge of 2011.
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On February 20 2013 04:49 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:47 wei2coolman wrote:On February 20 2013 04:40 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 20 2013 04:36 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:32 AsmodeusXI wrote:On February 20 2013 04:19 ketchup wrote:On February 20 2013 04:18 Scip wrote:On February 20 2013 04:13 ketchup wrote:
I'm willing to agree with Two Down here in regards to having a real LoL forum/ LoL support on TL. If TL were interested, I'm 100% sure it could have easily been done. Not to mention, I'm fairly certain they could have had enough volunteers when the LoL section stop being just a thread, and got it's own subsection under Sports and Games. I just don't think they were interested. The staff size to me is just the PR answer they(higher TL staff) are willing to give now. Well, what do you think the actual answer is if not "not enough staff/people interested". "We hate LoL with our hearts and souls and do not want to support it any more than necessary"? Or maybe "We have a secret deal with Steam where we help DotA2 flourish while sink the boat of LoL"? Perhaps it is "We could easily do it, but we have been consumed by fame and wish to work no further" Wait, Ill get my conspirationist friend and ask him if he could somehow get the Illuminati and Knights Templar in there. I'm not saying it's some sort of conspiracy. I'm saying they just did not want to do it. You are putting extra words where there are none. It's pretty simple. The PR answer is "staff issues", but you've been around the TL LoL community long enough, you know that cannot be true at all. You guys are saying all this about "it's unlikely to be staff issues," and while there may be some bigger things here lurking under the surface, the fact is is that we only recently got a big enough staff to even do weekly LCS coverage, much less do larger and "more important" features. Not to MENTION administration, moderation, etc etc. If you want to challenge the idea that the problem with a dedicated TL LoL subforum is a lack of staffing, volunteer your time and energy to combat our lack of staffing, kthx. You do not need to defend TL even if you are staff. I'm not hating on you lot at all. I appreciate the work yall do. I think you guys finally, FINALLY got some support to look for more staffing for LoL related things. The problem I see is that it took way too long, and we all know it. Basically this. Everyone who has been here for a while, lurker or poster, is aware of the quality content that this forum can put forth, even in an informal GD thread. The main problem is we just have never had a lot of incentive to put it together. Look at how long it took to get champ threads in the first place. My point is simply that if TL wanted to support LoL it easily could have, and chose not to. I agree, TL had the resources to expand LoL subforum into a fully supported forum; and content provider. But, sometimes just because you have the ability to do something that doesn't mean you should. LoL was still in it's early stages when they chose to expand to Dota/Dota2. The biggest reason they chose not to do it had to do with pedigree. LoL was still immature as hell, the international scene was weak, only a handful of LAN LoL Tourneys, and didn't have the type of fanbase they were looking for. Do you really think TL LoL would be any good when it's flooded with 12 yearolds like /r/leagueoflegends is? Just imagine the amount of inane "check out this highlight vid of a lvl 22 guy getting a pentakill"; do you really want that? The issue wasn't TL wasn't ready for LoL, LoL wasn't ready for TL. I don't think this is true at all. DotA2 wasn't as big as LoL when they expanded to it and still isn't. The staff and most of the site isn't interested in League so there's no real reason for TL to become a LoL site.
Since when did I mention size? Dota+Dota2 has just far more stable esports~ Stability != size. Also, pedigree, pedigree man... That's huge. Dota2 has a history to it, just look at that recent article about Chinese meta; could you write something that grand on LoL? Not really. LoL just simply doesn't have the wealth or depth of history that Dota has; prestige is a pretty big thing here at TL. Just look at how staff treats BW forum veterans vs SC2 forum nubs. Yeah, lack of staff may be a real issue, but you make it sound as if it's an impossible thing to overcome, the fact is. TL went out of its way to open up for Dota, it's not impossible for it to go out of its way to open up for LoL Not a valid reason from TL imo, a easy "cop-out".
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United States47024 Posts
From having dealt with what happened to the DotA 2 subforum, I can say I like things here better the way they are now.
Need to? No. But considering the dearth of actually decent coverage communication on anything that isnt TL, it would certainly help the overall health of the community.
Two_down, you're making the assumption that the reason for poor coverage is the lack of information/accessibility. I don't agree with that. There's a lot of good information/discussion that is on other community channels like Reddit. It just gets drowned out in the immense amount of dogshit. Improving access by turning TL into a primary community channel isn't going to change that.
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On February 20 2013 04:54 MoonBear wrote:
This is slightly off on a tangent, but if you read some of the posts in DotA strategy they really give you a headache. Def do not want to have that happen here. Or even worse, SC2 Strat Forum before the Great Purge of 2011.
Yeah, wouldn't want anyone creating a second account, and having them argue among themselves.
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I like this sub forum the way it is mostly. When stuff gets too big the quality goes down so much --> sc2 forums >_>
combined with reddit main page, it's very simple to stay on top of what's happening in league.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 20 2013 04:54 MoonBear wrote:
This is slightly off on a tangent, but if you read some of the posts in DotA strategy they really give you a headache. Def do not want to have that happen here. Or even worse, SC2 Strat Forum before the Great Purge of 2011.
TBH it's kind of funny how quite a few people that got shouted out of this subforum went on to become regular shitposters in the DotA 2 subforum.
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DotA2's history is smaller compared to LoL. You could apply DotA1 concepts to LoL even if they don't completely transfer general concepts can still be applied. Yeah, the scene's history helps but at the end of the day the reason TL hasn't gone into LoL and won't for the foreseeable future is because there is no LoL fanbase here. Reasons 1-100 of why they chose DotA over LoL are no where near as important as the fact that 80-90% of this site doesn't care about League.
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On February 20 2013 04:57 daemir wrote:
I like this sub forum the way it is mostly. When stuff gets too big the quality goes down so much --> sc2 forums >_>
combined with reddit main page, it's very simple to stay on top of what's happening in league.
Except GD moves way too fast I wish someone would highlight the top points made each day. There's a lot of random nuggets of info weaved into everything.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 20 2013 04:59 overt wrote:
DotA2's history is smaller compared to LoL. You could apply DotA1 concepts to LoL even if they don't completely transfer general concepts can still be applied. Yeah, the scene's history helps but at the end of the day the reason TL hasn't gone into LoL and won't for the foreseeable future is because there is no LoL fanbase here. Reasons 1-100 of why they chose DotA over LoL are no where near as important as the fact that 80-90% of this site doesn't care about League.
I'm not even sure that's true. From reading LoL-related threads outside this subforum, there are a LOT of TLers that play LoL that either aren't aware of, or do not participate in our subforum.
Of course, from the way they post/argue, I'm also not sure I WANT them posting here.
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On February 20 2013 04:59 Phunkapotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 04:57 daemir wrote:
I like this sub forum the way it is mostly. When stuff gets too big the quality goes down so much --> sc2 forums >_>
combined with reddit main page, it's very simple to stay on top of what's happening in league. Except GD moves way too fast I wish someone would highlight the top points made each day. There's a lot of random nuggets of info weaved into everything.
I honestly find that the best part about how TL LoL works.
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On February 20 2013 04:59 overt wrote:
DotA2's history is smaller compared to LoL. You could apply DotA1 concepts to LoL even if they don't completely transfer general concepts can still be applied. Yeah, the scene's history helps but at the end of the day the reason TL hasn't gone into LoL and won't for the foreseeable future is because there is no LoL fanbase here. Reasons 1-100 of why they chose DotA over LoL are no where near as important as the fact that 80-90% of this site doesn't care about League.
Difference is Dota 1 directly translates into Dota 2 (or will); simply because dota 2 is a replicant of Dota1, not just a loose (VERY LOOSE) translation.
There is a LoL fanbase. Quite a few TL veterans, writers, translators and higher ups do post here. Especially if you see the Korean Tournament threads. In fact I remember GTR mentioning how LoL seemed more like the predecessor of SC:BW; due to the crowd and amount of support Koreans gave to LoL.
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On February 20 2013 04:56 TheYango wrote:
Two_down, you're making the assumption that the reason for poor coverage is the lack of information/accessibility. I don't agree with that. There's a lot of good information/discussion that is on other community channels like Reddit. It just gets drowned out in the immense amount of dogshit. Improving access by turning TL into a primary community channel isn't going to change that.
This, pretty much.
There is a whole bunch of quality information that passes through there from time to time, but to be honest I'm wondering how that quality information got upvoted in the first place considering the general populace and their upvote choices. If the reddit mods are truly going to be cracking down I'm not sure what kind of horseshit is going to make it to the frontpage now.
Probably just the random no-name Youtube video BEEG PLAYS that randos keep posting and the "TIL/DAE" shit since I imagine a lot of the research/analysis stuff like the RoG stuff have internal vote-boosters (kinda like us...).
Also AHGL will never make it to front page again. >.<
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Something wrong with NA servers? Que'd up for a ranked (only Silver 3-4, so not high elo), and been in que for 9 mins now.
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EPT
