[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 374

On January 10 2013 13:59 cLutZ wrote:


That happens with basically any AD Mid now though.

Edit:

When Pantheon and Talon are viable characters, there is an underlying issue. They have mediocre kits, at best.

On January 10 2013 14:33 onlywonderboy wrote:
M5 has released their LoL team. ex-M5 was obviously jealous that ex-CLG.EU was going to get a new name for LCS and wanted to join in on the fun. Also according to Slasher, ex-M5's manager dispelled the rumor that they are going to get picked up by Na'vi.

On January 10 2013 14:35 OutlaW- wrote:

M5 to Navi confirmed

On January 10 2013 14:39 Amarok wrote:


Why was M5's owner arrested?

On January 10 2013 14:33 onlywonderboy wrote:
Also according to Slasher, ex-M5's manager dispelled the rumor that they are going to get picked up by Na'vi.

On January 10 2013 14:35 OutlaW- wrote:

M5 to Navi confirmed

On January 10 2013 14:44 Dan HH wrote:

I like how Slasher gets credited for it when it's right there in the source link.

On January 10 2013 14:39 Two_DoWn wrote:

Not quite sure what you mean.

Pantheon has like the ideal lane bully kit, a short spammable damage spell and a stun to go with it, plus a natural defensive mitigation through his shield that helps with trades. Hard to get better than that for a lane bully.

Talon similarly is suited perfectly for what he is intended to do: he has a skill that deals high damage and slows, a silence that lets him get close and thus doom quite a few AP carries right there, and a little damage spike to help kill them. Plus, while not completely spammable, you can get one or two rakes off.

In each case their kit is excellent for what they are supposed to do.

On January 10 2013 14:17 Shikyo wrote:

Sorry for late reply. Yes, you can also use E before Q orb drops, you can actually even plink QE if it's near max range. The E hitbox isn't instant for the whole duration, I'd say it takes 0.5s to reach the end.

I thought this stuff was common knowledge if you've played Syndra a few games

On January 10 2013 14:16 cLutZ wrote:


Fizz's ult is awesome CC, he has troll-pole for good escape-ability, Talon is similar to Akali, except Resets, invis, energy (not mana).

You basically described why Panth has a bad kit. Moreover, the point of a lane bully, is if you haven't sealed the game by the 20 min mark, your team should be at a significant advantage (true for Leblanc, no longer true for pantheon).

Edit:



Vs. who? Because they can still assassinate the AD carry or AP carry.

On January 10 2013 14:46 onlywonderboy wrote:

Slasher's contribution was the part about M5 not going to Na'vi.

On January 10 2013 14:52 Dan HH wrote:

That information was in the comment section of the actual article: http://i.imgur.com/Gal3P.png. I don't have anything against Slasher, just thought it's weird to credit him for it when even Reddit caught on the not going to Na'vi part before him.

On January 10 2013 14:51 Alaric wrote:

Yeah I knew about the QE, but I didn't know W interacted the same way. Actually the "inconsistency" of the travel time depending on where your toss and how you're facing before the cast, etc. kinda bummed me, I'm pleased now.




Please stop referencing Anti-Mage, there are heroes in DotA (like Tiny) who are able to basically one-shot enemy squishies through raw base values on their spells early on. The point is on "early on": you gain "one-hit KO" potential at level 6 on most assassins (really, I like Talon best in that regard compared to Rengar or Kha'Zix, then Riven), and as you keep on building glass-cannon you keep on being able to kill other glass-cannon.
I haven't done the math nor tested in s3 (I guess I should, but I'd need to get mid for that and it's so rare that I'd rather train those I want to main) but in s2 armor yellows + a single chain vest was able to let you survive Talon's full burst till he invested in at least bruta or a BF sword on top of a LW (a BT would give less damage than a LW against such armor), so you actually would need to farm quite a lot to reach "100-0" status.*
And even assuming that you've got your boots + at least 2 of BC/BT/LW, then you've still invested ~7k in items, just to be able to 100-0 somebody who invested 750 in a single defensive item (lets you get IE + zeal + boots, or deathcap + void staff + boots on top of your chainvest, giving you a comfortable core that doesn't include any survivability on top of what forced him to get to that point). You have survability (against physical damage, granted), he doesn't at all unless he bought BC and has some HP.

It's not a "oh they can one shot at any point", it's a "they can one-shot if you forwent defense".
An issue is with AD assassins who aren't as vulnerable if their combo failed because they can still autoattack, and how BT can give them some survivability through hitting squishies, thus allowing them to perform with 0 defensive items (seriously, every time I saw somebody play Zed a GA or another defensive item isn't always built, and they rely on winning 1v3 by killing people faster than they die, which isn't how it's supposed to be).
But 100-0 somebody who didn't build anything to protect themselves? Guess what: it's deserved. Either your team protect you from them, or you take defensive measures, but you can't run nake under their nose then complain when you see a blade pop out of your skin.

Obviously, the amount of defensive itemization is something else, and an assassin that will never be able to burst your AD carry once he has a wamogs makes them supposedly useless (they'll need outside assistance/incidental AoE/stuff to soften the target before they deal the finishing touch). On the other hand, making it so you need the entire warmogs to survive a level 11 with 2 items assassin's burst would put a huge dent on your development and would impact the game and power curve of roles and champions negatively.
But I don't see anything wrong with a role having the ability, when built glass-cannon, to kill another glass-cannon with a spell rotation.

Annie was friggin' known before the power creep for being able to 100-0 any squishy taking a Tibbers to the face in the early and midgame.
Did anyone have a problem with that? Nope. They just said "positioning and carefulness, don't let her drop the friggin' thing on your head for free". Of course there's the issue of gap closing of champs like Kha'Zix, Zed (dat ult) and Talon, but then it's not in the killing, it's in the means to prevent it.


Regarding Pantheon, and spoilered because wall of text already:
+ Show Spoiler +


* I won't do detailed maths, but since ArPen is actually worse in s3 unless you get BC or LW on top of flat ArPen runes, 100-0 is actually less likely till you farm at least one of those + some additional AD, and as I already said BC alone is actually weaker than both BT and LW for a "single combo" purpose, which entails the "100-0" situation.

On January 10 2013 15:04 cLutZ wrote:


Is your point that AD casting champs are not in a problematic spot? Or that they are, but for reasons other than what I stated?

I think that Zed and Kha'zix are basically superior to Talon in every way. I think they are also mostly superior to Pantheon. This is why I think Talon and Pantheon being viable is kinda bizarre. (When I say viable I mean strong). Its basically like the Lulu/Janna Situation, except if Janna was strong from 1-18, and lulu was buffed to maintain her current strength advantage over Janna. Or if Sejuani was strong and Amumu buffed to maintain his current strength differential above Sejuani.

On January 10 2013 15:09 Two_DoWn wrote:

You severely underestimate both Talon and Pantheon's kit, especially Pantheon's. Spear chuck is probably one of the top 5 laning skills in the entire game.

On January 10 2013 15:04 cLutZ wrote:


Is your point that AD casting champs are not in a problematic spot? Or that they are, but for reasons other than what I stated?

I think that Zed and Kha'zix are basically superior to Talon in every way. I think they are also mostly superior to Pantheon. This is why I think Talon and Pantheon being viable is kinda bizarre. (When I say viable I mean strong). Its basically like the Lulu/Janna Situation, except if Janna was strong from 1-18, and lulu was buffed to maintain her current strength advantage over Janna. Or if Sejuani was strong and Amumu buffed to maintain his current strength differential above Sejuani.

On January 10 2013 15:47 Alaric wrote:

To be more precise:
- AD casters are poblematic in nature, for reasons inherent to how the game works and independant of s2/s3 (scaling on autoattacks for casters as an issue to the balancing process is the main offender).
- I was talking about assassins (relying on burst, so I dunno how Akali is to be considered since she can get resets to jump somebody else), eg. "champs designed to 100-0 their target". You seemed to think it's a problem, and I was saying "nope, because they can currently do it doesn't mean it's a problem, neither of their current capabilities, or of their role itself".

The main point behind my dumb wall of text was "I'm fine with champions being able to 100-0 you if you build 100% offense and let them get to you", expanded to "just dropping ~800 into a res/hp buffer to survive their base damage is fine, it being enough once they built core (ie damage) items for far more gold isn't" and "there is an issue about where to draw the line past which a pseudo-glass cannon has enough defense that an assassin will never assassinate him" since you want the game to be fun for everyone:
- never being able to survive an assassin is frustrating
- reaching a point where even being the ultimate glass-cannon you'll never be able to kill a "squishy" makes late game frustrating/boring
- having to delay your core a lot just so your "squishy" can survive can be frustrating.
(See my example about "it's no fun if I have to build a whole warmog right after IE just so that I stop dying instantly" because it doesn't go along with the intended role/playstyle of most carries.)

Of course DotA is probably different since from what I understand most of the itemization of carries is actually survivability, with builds ressembling Irelia/Jax from s2 (triforce as offense, rest defense). But I don't think a comparison with DotA is relevant here (hence my plea to stop mentioning Anti-Mage).


It's already fucking long so I'll make another point short or I'll lose myself again:
- Talon and Pantheon try to 100-0 one person, Pantheon because he doesn't have escape so unless fed will probably have to gtfo heavily wounded or die in the assassination attempt, Talon because he relies so much on his ult to actually kill somebody and has kinda long cooldowns (E). The fact that one of their basic spells is non-damaging plays a big part in it.
- Kha'Zix, Rengar, Riven, Zed have great sustained damage, even without their ults. It can come from good aa scaling (Rengar), spammable spells/mechanics (Kha'Zix has Q, his passive and the jump reset, combined with the fact that he can kill somebody without using his ult, or at least every charge of it; Zed has his lingering shadows and short cooldown on E to deal swift AoE damage "continuously", along with the W passive that also enhances his autoattack dps, and his passive which is essentially "multitarget"), or simply a kit designed for "neverending" combat when chained smoothly (Riven's combination of cooldowns, passive, survivability from shield, AoE on all her spells and ult's steroid enhancing autoattacks).

I love Pantheon and Talon for their playstyle and "true" caster nature, and what I see as a problem for champs like Zed, Kha'Zix, Rengar and Riven, which may come from design (they wanted Rengar an assassin for the "feeling" of hunting targets, taking on several opponents one after the other is better suited to a bruiser-style kit) or from power-creep (hai Kha'Zix) is that despite being branded as assassin-type champions, they don't have the "target a single opponent" restriction to them and can fight well beyond the killing of one person. There is also less risk associated with them (they may be "squishy", but they'll survive way better than Panth or Talon when thrown into the thick of a teamfight).
Hm. I forgot about Garen, another caster. But I don't love him so I won't be tempted to wall-of-text it up again. He lacks reach. Best suited for skirmishes and ambushes than teamfight. His combo his slow, like Pantheon's, he 100% relies on his ult, like Talon. He has survivability but no mobility.