EPT
They both their own game.[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 359
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
They both their own game. | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On January 09 2013 20:50 Numy wrote: I see a lot of comparisons to dota in this discussion and I don't really like it. People seem to have a basic idea and are using that to compare. In Dota if you can die you don't stick around to see if you can die you get the fuck out of there. If the tower in League isn't protecting you for a early 2v1 dive why are you sticking around to die. You can bruteforce down people under tower perfectly fine in Dota. In fact one of the ways to kill a suicide dire lane is to push lane to tower then smoke gang through the bottom rune spot to flank him at tower. If that guy stays he is dead, if he runs to his t2 he is fine. Arguing about League, don't compare to dota please I agree the comparison to Dota is unnecessary. The main question should be if it is a good mechanic to allow players to kill other players at early levels by well coordinated ganks with the right heroes. I think it is good because it allows teams to break the static laning phase, which I find boring to watch. So I'm all for crazy early pushes and tower dives. They just need to make sure it is difficult to pull off and requires good coordination otherwise it might become a headache in SoloQ. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
Its something that needs to be tested before we can know if it is doable, but there are a few criteria a champion has to meet to be able to do a 2v2 lane. 1. Needs a way to deal with the enemy ADC - Rengar and Jax can jump them to both harass and go for a kill. 2. Needs to synergize with a support to outharass or outlast the enemy ADC + support combo. 3. Needs to scale good enough with items that the level disadvantage does not hurt your midgame. 4. Needs to scale great into lategame - Jax, Poppy, Nasus and Fiora all scale strongly into lategame, but I doubt that especially Nasus will do great in 2v2 lanes. EDIT: 5. Needs a way to deal with jungle pressure (You are going to be more forward in lane than the enemy) | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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Wetty
Australia419 Posts
On January 09 2013 20:16 Tobberoth wrote: The thing is, you're saying good top players will distinct themselves, but how can you distinct yourself when you can't do anything? Ward? Sure, you see them coming, but that doesn't mean you can do anything. You can run back to the second tier tower if you're fast enough, or even base, but is that honestly fun? Wouldn't it be more fun if a player playing well under tower can make it a good trade, instead of being a freekill? Seems much more entertaining and skillbased if you could turn a 2man dive around if you play well and come out on top, while the dive could succeed if you don't play it out properly. Comparision to Dota isn't fair, because if you go 1v2 suicide lane, you pick a hero who can escape, you can actually do something by yourself to prevent getting killed. In bot lane, you can juke in the trees. You might die anyway, sure, but at least you will force them to take so many towerhits that there's a very good chance at least one of the divers will die. If you want to compare with dota though, can you think of any setup which can safely dive and get a kill early in Dota? Even with the weaker towers in Dota, the dota playstyle is very different and leaves much more to the individual skill of the players in this situation. You can't bruteforce down enemies under tower in Dota, because there's a good chance they can survive it if they play properly. I really dislike where you say "You can't do anything". The previous poster was discussing co-ordinating play with other players on your team, or even choosing a different setup of masteries/summoners/items to help deal with the situation, when you can see it coming (i.e. the udyr/rene jungle/lane pair which is known to dive). Having an exhaust would make such a MASSIVE difference in that situation... If the udyr (who has no flash, smite/exhaust) gets exhausted under the tower, and Irelia stunned, it seems pretty unlikely that he's getting away, or doing damage to you before he has to get out. A completely different situation from if you were dived and you had an ignite. And that is completely ignoring the fact that you have teammates to help you. You make comparison's to dota, like picking a hero who could escape... Plenty of LoL champions have movement abilities that would help - Riven could dance around the tower pretty well with a flash and Q or E, among other champs. Your whole argument seems to be based around the fact that you don't want to be forced into changing anything about your play... Be that the champion you pick, the masteries or summoners you take, or asking your team for help - and that seems somewhat silly given that the other team has gone out of their way to change their play to create this situation... So better buff towers, so you can be safe right? I honestly think there aren't any dives that are completely certain to always succeed. They may seem it, but people haven't really tried to adapt, or had long playing against it yet. | ||
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w(oO)t
New Zealand40 Posts
What do you guys think of Zhonyas on Varus... you can use the active more often than a GA, and he has some nice %health scaling on his W and AP scaling on his ulti. I'm gonna give it a test drive tonight | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 09 2013 21:55 Wetty wrote: I really dislike where you say "You can't do anything". The previous poster was discussing co-ordinating play with other players on your team, or even choosing a different setup of masteries/summoners/items to help deal with the situation, when you can see it coming (i.e. the udyr/rene jungle/lane pair which is known to dive). Having an exhaust would make such a MASSIVE difference in that situation... If the udyr (who has no flash, smite/exhaust) gets exhausted under the tower, and Irelia stunned, it seems pretty unlikely that he's getting away, or doing damage to you before he has to get out. A completely different situation from if you were dived and you had an ignite. And that is completely ignoring the fact that you have teammates to help you. You make comparison's to dota, like picking a hero who could escape... Plenty of LoL champions have movement abilities that would help - Riven could dance around the tower pretty well with a flash and Q or E, among other champs. Your whole argument seems to be based around the fact that you don't want to be forced into changing anything about your play... Be that the champion you pick, the masteries or summoners you take, or asking your team for help - and that seems somewhat silly given that the other team has gone out of their way to change their play to create this situation... So better buff towers, so you can be safe right? I honestly think there aren't any dives that are completely certain to always succeed. They may seem it, but people haven't really tried to adapt, or had long playing against it yet. Well, I don't like to take the argument in the direction of what I could do and how I could adapt, because I'm not the person in question, I'm trying to explain Wickds viewpoint and how it makes sense. When I say "you can't do anything", I'm not saying "I've been in the situation and couldn't do anything, so it's broken", I'm saying "According to wickd, it's surefire". He's a pro, I'm not. Since he has been on both the receiving and giving end of it though, I see no reason to dismiss it, unless you're a pro player yourself and can point out the mistakes. For example, you say riven can dance around the tower, yet Wickd still whined about the towers being weak on stream after he soloed a Riven under her tower as Irelia, and that was just him solo, not even the 2man dive scenario discussed before. All I'm really saying is that it's a definite point of towers to be a safe zone early, and there's tons of reasons why that is needed, prefering passive boring turtle play isn't one of them. If that safe zone concept stops working, the game becomes a shitfest similar to Dominion where every player playing as a bruiser makes sense eventually. I think rather than whining about towers making the game passive, it's important to discuss when and where a dive working goes from being either "bad play from defender/awesome play from attackers" to "bad luck for defender". Once again, I don't personally mind this issue, I'm not a pro and I never will be, and even if Wickd is right, it doesn't matter on the level I play. That said, if it's true that towers are too weak and it's way too easy to get kills diving, that's crap for the competitive scene IMO. Diving IMO should be about: A) Surprising your opponent with a big show of force, such as 4man ganks bot. B) Finishing off a gank. C) Finishing off after a lot of effective harassment. D) Snowballing an already big advantage. It makes no sense to me that you should ever be able to gank someone who is under tower unless they are behind or already weak unless you're at least 3 people, at least not if the defender plays well. (In the early game of course) | ||
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TSBspartacus
England1046 Posts
Also didn't they nerf her E? That hasn't been reverted and that was a good skill for her jungling too since it does some decent damage to the bigger monsters while your Q can deal with the smaller ones. I don't think it will kill her jungling since her ganks are still pretty great especially when you can ask your team to keep track of where the enemy pinks, but that ult nerf stops her being able to pick off low health enmys as easily and as often which is unfortunate. I'd rather they changed it to a set AP damage than change it to % current health. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
She reminds me of + Show Spoiler + Strike Freedom | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
Im busing almost every game n tf now anyway and it will become even more core on him imo, very nice item. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On January 09 2013 23:03 arb wrote: that skin doesnt even look good enough to be a legendary, i dont think The animations are way better than her current ones though and the skin is an improvement overall. Honestly I never liked the Kayle graphical rework, always looked pretty wooden and awkward to me for all her animations and outside of detail wasn't much of an improvement over old Kayle. | ||
AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On January 09 2013 23:06 phyvo wrote: The animations are way better than her current ones though and the skin is an improvement overall. Honestly I never liked the Kayle graphical rework, always looked pretty wooden and awkward to me for all her animations and outside of detail wasn't much of an improvement over old Kayle. I totally agree about the animations in general, but, as someone pointed out in a YouTube comment, her AA animation is going to look HILARIOUS at high speeds. SWINGSWINGSWINGSWING. | ||
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seanisgrand
United States1039 Posts
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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