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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On January 09 2013 18:07 Scip wrote: I have seen a LOT of random nerfs over the years, but the Annie Molten Shield nerf definitely takes the cake as the most random one, lol. That's what i was thinking. Like wtf? Buffing Ryze is also interesting, already very strong. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
http://bambuser.com/channel/ognunofficial http://www.twitch.tv/azubuogn/popout Also, I now believe Riot plays roulette before every match and adjust their buffs/nerfs accordingly. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 09 2013 18:33 OutlaW- wrote: If it's easy to dive top and get a kill, your jungler can come counterdive for 2 free kills. I don't see a problem. If you're relatively low, your jungler is on the other side of the map and their jungler could be anywhere, back off. I still don't see a problem. Also, who the hell is talking about free kills? If you're that easy to kill and you know that their jungler is coming to dive you then you should back off. I don't think you understand what Wickd is talking about since you keep mentioning "backing off" and "basing". Wickd is talking about going in at low level with your jungler and killing your opponent even if he has full HP and is standing under tower and is not behind. Literally nothing he can do and literally freekill. He can't "back off" or "base" just because his jungler happens to be elsewhere, because he's SUPPOSED to be safe against 2man ganks as long as he's under tower and not behind/low on health. That's the very POINT of the tower, to give a defenders advantage early. No one is saying you should be 100% safe under tower when you're behind or low on HP. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 09 2013 18:51 OutlaW- wrote: And I'm saying the advantage that they give is too strong. Wickd is only complaining because he gets camped in soloq and doesn't act accordingly. You ignored the rest of my post because you have no more answers and I'm tired saying the same thing over and over again to somebody who doesn't even try to understand. Lol? He's talking about HIM killing OTHER people under tower, it's not about him being camped. I've seen him do it on his stream several times. How the crap is the advantage they give to strong if you can literally 2man dive before level 6? Why even have towers if that's "too strong", just have top players who are up against a tough top+jungler combo stay in base all game because that's "the proper play, the tower isn't supposed to let you lane, because it's more fun with aggression". | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On January 09 2013 12:01 IMoperator wrote: Wow, I just got a warning from games I played like this summer lol. I've been less bm lately, but do they really punish you for games that happened months ago? Also, since nobody answered before can anyone help with this. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 09 2013 19:01 IMoperator wrote: I think towers are fine the way they are now. I've seen plenty of 2v1 dives fail, and you need to be well coordinated with your jungle to dive people. I'd say it's fine below competitive level. At that level though, it makes sense to me that pre-six, the proper play if you want to be safe in lane because of some dangerous circumstance (such as seeing that the enemy jungler is nearby) is to stand by your tower, you shouldn't be forced to base just because you see the enemy jungler nearby and there's a good chance they can coordinate well enough by switching tower-aggro and kill you below your tower even though you're at full health. Being forced to base to regen or buy stuff is logical, basing because your fricking tower isn't enough defense isn't. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 09 2013 19:02 OutlaW- wrote: You take things too far again. It would buff heroes who are strong early, sure. But you could have just taken a strong top+jungler combo as well. If you didn't, then your jungler must realize this and make defensive plays like counterganking. Or he could have taken a strong botlane (or mid lane, whatever) + jungler combo and dive that lane. I still don't see a problem. If both junglers execute their dives correctly, what will happen will be an even game. Even doesn't mean fun. Aggressive linesups are already very viable in LoL, while the tower allows passive/weak early champions to be viable as well. While it might be "even" that both teams can play the same kind of champions to abuse the weak towers, it makes it boring since it forces that composition. It's like in the start of SC2, defenders advantage ridiculously weak which makes aggressive cheeses etc super strong. Of course it's balanced if both players 6pool, that doesn't make it good though. I feel like your argument is basically it needs to be possible to force ganks, even under tower with enemy at full HP, because it stops the opponent from being able to stay passive and safe under tower. I don't see this as true at all. Staying under tower already puts you behind because you get less exp and gold. Also, even when someone turtles under tower, it's possible to harass them if you have that kind of champion, which will eventually lead to a point where a 2man dive SHOULD work. Also, the common argument that towers are too strong which leads to turtling is false IMO, mainly because the power of towers drop off hard, and they aren't even powerful enough to begin with. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
And while the GA is good item, if you get caught or pulled into team by a blitz or something like this, they'll just kill you when it pops back, where the HP you have from warmogs can let an additionnal second for your team to react and strike back (well if you really get pulled by blitz you're kinda fucked anyway but who knows). And the HP you back from GA is what, one Kha'zix Q ? lol The idea of having all these HP is that it fits a lot of different situations : A fight in LoL in not always a pure 5v5, because of how you engage, because someone can be splitpushing, etc. If for different reasons, you can't auto someone to lifesteal back your HP then you're fucked, whereas with warmogs you have it anyway. Being able to survive to any burst also gives you more space to autoattack and deal damage compared to when you're kinda glass cannon and disengage all the time because you wanna avoid dying (like they say in the korean article linked before). And as said TheYango, it's very cost-effective and slot effective compared to GA + QSS. | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 09 2013 19:32 Duvon wrote: This tower diving business, how much is it specific heroes (lee sin?) or actual gameplay? I think it's a bit of both. Not all heroes are tanky enough early on to seriously tank any hits, but I think quite a few can do it, depends on how well the players trade tower hits. It's basically any 2 heroes who can kill a full-HP target hero in the time it takes a tower to kill them both, more or less. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
l0l | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On January 09 2013 18:35 DEN1ED wrote: That's what i was thinking. Like wtf? Buffing Ryze is also interesting, already very strong. Like I said before, they're changes to previous PBE buffs (Annie shield) and nerfs (Ryze ratios were lowered on prev PBE patch and this patch is rebuffing some values) | ||
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Cuddle
Sweden1345 Posts
On January 09 2013 19:05 IMoperator wrote: Also, since nobody answered before can anyone help with this. What is there to say? AFAIK there's no limitation period and the cases in the Tribunal are only a subset of all your reports and we don't know how they're chosen. Could be you have as many reports/game now that you had 6 months ago but all cases in the Tribunal could still be from 6 months ago if it is randomly chosen (which I think they are). You say you're getting better, so show it by not getting more warnings/bans. | ||
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On January 09 2013 19:45 TheLink wrote: I remember months ago Wickd talking about this high-elo duo queue. They would pick Udyr/Renekton and level 1 dive top every game for free first blood no matter what. Saw it in action too, lvl 1 Renekton with dash and level 2 Udyr with bear + turtle + exhaust. Straight up died at 2:05 despite having irelia stun and not leaving tower. If that is true then the game is finnaly starting to evolve in the right direction. Coordinated early game plays are paying out and passive play has it's disadvantages you have to consider. If the turret dealt enough damage to prevent early dives to be successfull even when planned like that then this would mean that passive solo play is way too advantageous and powerful. From now on the good top laners will distict themselves from the bad, also by planning their early game defense against aggressive combos like udyr+renekton and similar by buying wards early on, picking the right champions, summoners and coordinating counterplays with their jungler. this reminds me of a particular merlini zeus tripple kill. DotA towers are even weaker than lol turrets but he knew what he was doing at that time because he was used to play 1on2 and 1on3 lanes. The more early game dives we see (especially if planned) the better for the game imo. It will lead to a new layer of depth and considerations. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On January 09 2013 20:02 clickrush wrote: If that is true then the game is finnaly starting to evolve in the right direction. Coordinated early game plays are paying out and passive play has it's disadvantages you have to consider. If the turret dealt enough damage to prevent early dives to be successfull even when planned like that then this would mean that passive solo play is way too advantageous and powerful. From now on the good top laners will distict themselves from the bad, also by planning their early game defense against aggressive combos like udyr+renekton and similar by buying wards early on, picking the right champions, summoners and coordinating counterplays with their jungler. this reminds me of a particular merlini zeus tripple kill. DotA towers are even weaker than lol turrets but he knew what he was doing at that time because he was used to play 1on2 and 1on3 lanes. The more early game dives we see (especially if planned) the better for the game imo. It will lead to a new layer of depth and considerations. That was.. so long ago.. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 09 2013 20:02 clickrush wrote: If that is true then the game is finnaly starting to evolve in the right direction. Coordinated early game plays are paying out and passive play has it's disadvantages you have to consider. If the turret dealt enough damage to prevent early dives to be successfull even when planned like that then this would mean that passive solo play is way too advantageous and powerful. From now on the good top laners will distict themselves from the bad, also by planning their early game defense against aggressive combos like udyr+renekton and similar by buying wards early on, picking the right champions, summoners and coordinating counterplays with their jungler. this reminds me of a particular merlini zeus tripple kill. DotA towers are even weaker than lol turrets but he knew what he was doing at that time because he was used to play 1on2 and 1on3 lanes. The more early game dives we see (especially if planned) the better for the game imo. It will lead to a new layer of depth and considerations. The thing is, you're saying good top players will distinct themselves, but how can you distinct yourself when you can't do anything? Ward? Sure, you see them coming, but that doesn't mean you can do anything. You can run back to the second tier tower if you're fast enough, or even base, but is that honestly fun? Wouldn't it be more fun if a player playing well under tower can make it a good trade, instead of being a freekill? Seems much more entertaining and skillbased if you could turn a 2man dive around if you play well and come out on top, while the dive could succeed if you don't play it out properly. Comparision to Dota isn't fair, because if you go 1v2 suicide lane, you pick a hero who can escape, you can actually do something by yourself to prevent getting killed. In bot lane, you can juke in the trees. You might die anyway, sure, but at least you will force them to take so many towerhits that there's a very good chance at least one of the divers will die. If you want to compare with dota though, can you think of any setup which can safely dive and get a kill early in Dota? Even with the weaker towers in Dota, the dota playstyle is very different and leaves much more to the individual skill of the players in this situation. You can't bruteforce down enemies under tower in Dota, because there's a good chance they can survive it if they play properly. | ||
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