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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
new Philo takes 23.333 minutes to pay itself off new Kage's takes 31.875 minutes new Philo takes 11.66 min to pay off if you sell it, new Kage takes 15.9 min It also went from the least expensive gp10 item to the most expensive gp10 item + Show Spoiler + Kage = 765g, Philo = 700g, Avarice = 800g So it's basically now only going to be bought if you're building Ghostblade, Atma's, Statikk Shiv, or Exe's Calling, I'd guess. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:13 TheYango wrote: Philo's not looking great either, TBH, given how they totally gutted Shurelyas' cost-effectiveness. Hm? From the cost-efficiency sheet I'm looking at here, it still is positively cost effective, though I don't know where they got their numbers from. Not as super cost effective as S2, but still pretty good. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On December 04 2012 02:51 Ketara wrote: I want to try a no jungler game with somebody someday, with 2 supports. I've got this crazy idea for it. Might be terrible but I want to do it so I can stop thinking about it. You take a top laner who is weak early and requires a lot of farm, and a second support who is bruisery and can initiate but doesn't need farm (Leona almost def.) You then play super aggressive top lane, idea being to force the enemy jungler to focus up there, making it essentially a 2v2, only your duo has synergy that their duo does not. The comp idea I have for it is: Leona / Gangplank (top) Twisted Fate (mid) Soraka / Sivir (bot) Early game Leona/GP/TF kill blue at level 1 and give the first blue to TF, allowing him to ignore blue cards and push lane real hard. Soraka/Sivir is a naturally aggressive and pushy bot lane. Leona zones the enemy top laner and GP can free farm. Every 5 mins Leona goes down to help TF with blue. Mid game every lane has a global ult they can use to help the other lanes. All 3 lanes are good at pushing towers and just get the towers down as fast as possible, reducing the amount of time where the enemy jungler ganking is a relevant issue. Late game, both GP and Sivir have attack speed buffs, and GP/Sivir/TF can all scale off attack speed. Leona initiates into a GP ult, and GP/Sivir/TF stack their attack speed buffs and kill the enemy team. With no Smite needed you have one more combat summoner than the enemy team. Would also probably work with a Jarvan support instead of Leona. Might be terrible! But I think it sounds fun. OH NO ITS NONMETA BETTER FLAME! Just kidding, I did this once and it was pretty sweet. Both supports need to be CC supports, so we did Xin Zhao/Leona top and MF/Zyra bot. Each support went double gp10, Zyra built demicarry. Your supports need to roam to prevent 3v2 bot and 2v1 mid, but if your supports pay attention to clearing your own jungle (don't just leave farm, don't let them counterjungle) and you roam a good bit, it can be OP as hell. The doublemelee Xin/Leona is disgustingly strong, works with Panth too. I'm not sure how well this works lategame, since both times we ran it we won in ~25min. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
i've been playing lots of anivia lately and going boots-meki-2 pots start, picking up a chalice, then buying and maintaining blue ichors as soon as i hit 6. it's not as effective as it is in 5s because there's not enough farm but you can still massively push waves which opens space for you to roam, and the narrow corridors make level 1 wall really effective. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:09 Requizen wrote: Hrm, I think new Avarice Blade sucks as a pure gold item. From the time you get it, it takes 398 kills to pay itself off in the same time that it does Philo + Show Spoiler + new Philo takes 23.333 minutes to pay itself off new Kage's takes 31.875 minutes new Philo takes 11.66 min to pay off if you sell it, new Kage takes 15.9 min It also went from the least expensive gp10 item to the most expensive gp10 item + Show Spoiler + Kage = 765g, Philo = 700g, Avarice = 800g So it's basically now only going to be bought if you're building Ghostblade, Atma's, Statikk Shiv, or Exe's Calling, I'd guess. Your Avarice Blade math appears to be way off. Somehow or other you're miscalculating the effect of Avarice's 2gp10; an 8.5 minute gap shouldn't result in a one CS difference. 23.333 minutes * 6 (10 second intervals per minute) * 2gp10 = 280g 800g - 280g = 520g 520g / 2g per CS = 260 CS So you roughly need 11 CS per minute to keep up with Philo Stone if you view Avarice as a pure gold item. If you run the same calculations for Kage's, it's 209 CS or 6-7 CS per minute. You really shouldn't be shocked that gp10s are bad from a "pure gold" perspective, because they were similarly bad in Season 2. Run the same calculations on any Season 2 gp10 and you'll see they range from 25-27.5 minutes before they pay themselves off. It was never a good idea to buy a gp10 if you didn't intend on building it into something, and there was never any reason to suspect that would change in Season 3. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:20 Requizen wrote: Hm? From the cost-efficiency sheet I'm looking at here, it still is positively cost effective, though I don't know where they got their numbers from. Not as super cost effective as S2, but still pretty good. You're not accounting for how Hp5/Mp5 has been naturally over-valued from a raw cost-effectiveness standpoint since the beginning of time due to the low cost-effectiveness of the baseline regen items Philo Stone on paper gives more regen than its gold value, but it's actual usefulness as an item doesn't reflect that. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:33 kainzero wrote: speaking of breaking meta, playing 3v3 has been really fun for me lately. it feels like you can inject more variety. i've been playing lots of anivia lately and going boots-meki-2 pots start, picking up a chalice, then buying and maintaining blue ichors as soon as i hit 6. it's not as effective as it is in 5s because there's not enough farm but you can still massively push waves which opens space for you to roam, and the narrow corridors make level 1 wall really effective. I've been having a blast playing 3s lately. On-hit Teemo with Malady/Nashor/Wooglet's is amazingly fun. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
[time to pay off] = (800 - 2[kills])/.2 Alternatively: [kills needed] = (.2[time] - 800)/(-2) Which gives the kills I calculated. If I did the math wrong, or set that up incorrectly, feel free to correct me. And yeah, I don't want to get into gp10 efficiency/worthwhile dicussions, but I realize it's not good to get them just for gold. However, the gold generation is just something to look at during your build. On December 04 2012 05:40 TheYango wrote: You're not accounting for how Hp5/Mp5 has been naturally over-valued from a raw cost-effectiveness standpoint since the beginning of time due to the low cost-effectiveness of the baseline regen items Philo Stone on paper gives more regen than its gold value, but it's actual usefulness as an item doesn't reflect that. Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Most of the time I don't notice the health regen on Philo, as I like to get it on people that already have healing mechanics and I'm mainly getting it for the mana regen/Shurelya upgrade (Soraka, for instance). | ||
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Lounge
537 Posts
The only item that I really see changing that is Executioner. Maybe you need it for Swain/Mundo but they aren't in your lane, so you sit on Avarice until you are actively fighting those guys. If you're going for Ghostblade or Atmas you still want to finish it early to get the power jump. If you're going for Shiv it seems like Zeal is the stronger component to get first. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:45 Lounge wrote: The big problem with Avarice was/is it doesn't build into a "teamfight item." It felt OK to sit on HoG or Philo to partially pay for themselves because you didn't necessarily need Shurelia or Randuin until bigger fights started happening. If you were going Ghostblade, Bruta was going to give you more power early, and you'd go straight into it without the gold generation doing anything. The only item that I really see changing that is Executioner. Maybe you need it for Swain/Mundo but they aren't in your lane, so you sit on Avarice until you are actively fighting those guys. If you're going for Ghostblade or Atmas you still want to finish it early to get the power jump. If you're going for Shiv it seems like Zeal is the stronger component to get first. I'd disagree on Atma's in particular, not sure about the other ones. You sometimes don't need the armor early in lane, though you'll want it in teamfights once you start seeing the enemy AD carry. So if you don't need a Chain early on, which I'm sure you won't most games, you could conceivably sit on Avarice until you either have enough health that you want Atma's, or until you need the defense. Not sure about the other ones. I'm still not sure who would really want Shiv. Maybe an AS jungler would take Zeal and Avarice and just not combine them until teamfights start and you want the AoE proc, but I really couldn't say until we actually see the items. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:41 Requizen wrote: For Avarice, I was using the equation [time to pay off] = (800 - 2[kills])/.2 Alternatively: [kills needed] = (.2[time] - 800)/(-2) Which gives the kills I calculated. If I did the math wrong, or set that up incorrectly, feel free to correct me. And yeah, I don't want to get into gp10 efficiency/worthwhile dicussions, but I realize it's not good to get them just for gold. However, the gold generation is just something to look at during your build. Units help make equations clearer. For example, here's your second equation with units added: CS = (time * 2g/10s - 800g) / -2g/cs What happens when you put 23.333 minutes in for time? + Show Spoiler + CS = (23.333min * 2g/10s - 800g) / -2g/cs CS = (4.6666min*g/s - 800g) / -2g/cs CS = -2.3333cs * min/s + 400cs The units don't cancel out because you're throwing minutes into an equation that is built around seconds. No shit you need 398 CS in 23 seconds for Avarice to keep up with a 300 gp10 item. This has been Mathtime with Monte™. (Now I feel old because I'm remembering how my Physics teacher in high school constantly emphasized how important it was to include units. That was over 10 years ago.) | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Just goes to show that you shouldn't be doing random equations during work. So it's 260 CS to catch up to Philo, 209 to catch up to Kage. That does seem more likely, but it's still a lot of CS to be sitting on just Avarice of course. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/champion-skin-sale-victorious-champions I might get + Show Spoiler + Lulu | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Typical Riot. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On December 04 2012 06:23 Roffles wrote: Sounds like they're just trying to promote and sell those FOTM champs before they nerf them soon. Typical Riot. I honestly feel like Olaf could use some, I can't remember the last high level game I watched that he didn't go full raid boss mode and do good damage while being unkillable. I'd never say he's OP, since he has those high mana costs and landing axes is a lot harder than it looks, but you do see a lot of top players make him look stupid broken. | ||
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