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On December 04 2012 02:51 Ketara wrote:
I want to try a no jungler game with somebody someday, with 2 supports. I've got this crazy idea for it. Might be terrible but I want to do it so I can stop thinking about it.
You take a top laner who is weak early and requires a lot of farm, and a second support who is bruisery and can initiate but doesn't need farm (Leona almost def.)
You then play super aggressive top lane, idea being to force the enemy jungler to focus up there, making it essentially a 2v2, only your duo has synergy that their duo does not.
The comp idea I have for it is:
Leona / Gangplank (top)
Twisted Fate (mid)
Soraka / Sivir (bot)
Early game Leona/GP/TF kill blue at level 1 and give the first blue to TF, allowing him to ignore blue cards and push lane real hard. Soraka/Sivir is a naturally aggressive and pushy bot lane. Leona zones the enemy top laner and GP can free farm. Every 5 mins Leona goes down to help TF with blue.
Mid game every lane has a global ult they can use to help the other lanes. All 3 lanes are good at pushing towers and just get the towers down as fast as possible, reducing the amount of time where the enemy jungler ganking is a relevant issue.
Late game, both GP and Sivir have attack speed buffs, and GP/Sivir/TF can all scale off attack speed. Leona initiates into a GP ult, and GP/Sivir/TF stack their attack speed buffs and kill the enemy team. With no Smite needed you have one more combat summoner than the enemy team.
Might be terrible! But I think it sounds fun.
There are several issues with no jungle, but if you can overcome them in one way or another, it's passable I think.
1) No counter-gank presence. One of the jungler's jobs is to show up where the enemy jungle is and keep his ganks from being too overwhelming. If the enemy top can handle the 2v1 pressure, the enemy jungle is free to gank mid and bot with no resistance at all.
2) Buff control. Not only are you losing the jungler to start Dragon/Blues, you also don't have a smite (I'd guess), which gives big steal opportunities to the enemy team
3) Experience. The top lane is now splitting experience as much as the bottom lane. For ADs it's ok, since you scale more with items than you do with levels. For bruisers, you really want both. If you get kills top, you'll break even or get ahead, but you can't always assume you're dominating.
4) Late game items. While the Jungler doesn't get as many items as a laner, they definitely get more than a support. Now, instead of just one support with few items, you have two. While Leona (or Taric/Nunu/Blitz) can survive being tanky with few items, I don't think it's nearly the same as having a bruiser jungler who'll have at least a decent core.
5) No pressure on mid or bot. Straightforward, unless your global ults on TF and GP are used everytime they're up and secure kills, bot and mid never have to worry about a gank unless someone goes mia. Since they can track all 5 of you while you don't know where the enemy jungle is unless he shows up, they pretty much have more control of the map than you at all times.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 02:51 Ketara wrote:
You then play super aggressive top lane, idea being to force the enemy jungler to focus up there, making it essentially a 2v2, only your duo has synergy that their duo does not.
That's banking on the jungler misplaying the 2v1, when the correct play with a 1v2 vs. no jungle is to just sacrifice the 1v2, win both other lanes, and take every objective.
So your team has 2 supports, 2 losing lanes, 1 freefarmed carry, and no objectives while theirs has 1 support, a really farmed jungler, 2 winning lanes, an underfarmed top laner, and total objective control.
The only reason junglers camp the 1v2 in those kinds of games is because the 1v2 laner whines for help when in actuality ganking the 1v2 lane has the highest risk and the lowest reward. The 1v2 should more or less get sacrificed unless he's going to get dived, in which counter-ganking the dive can yield high returns.
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On December 04 2012 03:04 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 02:51 Ketara wrote:
You then play super aggressive top lane, idea being to force the enemy jungler to focus up there, making it essentially a 2v2, only your duo has synergy that their duo does not. That's banking on the jungler misplaying the 2v1, when the correct play with a 1v2 vs. no jungle is to just sacrifice the 1v2, win both other lanes, and take every objective. So your team has 2 supports, 2 losing lanes, 1 freefarmed carry, and no objectives while theirs has 1 support, a really farmed jungler, 2 winning lanes, an underfarmed top laner, and total objective control. The only reason junglers camp the 1v2 in those kinds of games is because the 1v2 laner whines for help when in actuality ganking the 1v2 lane has the highest risk and the lowest reward. The 1v2 should more or less get sacrificed unless he's going to get dived, in which counter-ganking the dive can yield high returns.
This is why I think the GP and TF combo are important. If the enemy jungler decides to beat up on bot lane, then every GP and TF ult just goes bot lane to stop the ganks. Meanwhile, GP/Leona try to down the top tower as fast as possible and then roam.
Not saying it's a good idea, I just want to try it and see what happens. I think the biggest issue would be giving up free dragons, which is kind of a big deal.
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Another thought I had with trying a no jungler strategy would be to ward up your jungle and respond to the opposing jungler's attempts to farm in your jungle, so you don't just give them total control
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On December 04 2012 02:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 02:17 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:52 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:40 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:22 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:17 57 Corvette wrote:
Why has Kayle practically disappeared from tournament play? I can't remember any nerfs to her recently, nor can I remember why everyone stopped playing her.. Lane swapping came and people had to be capable of surviving a 2v1 lane. Suddenly kayle really had no use and no lane presence. she can wave clear just fine but not farm under tower or do much to a 3 man dive. shes also weak without items. In other news birds have stopped flying. Kayle's not the worst 1v2. One thing I don't get is how she's stomping in pubs with hybrid builds. Shes got really good ap ratios and her ult is super effective when people tunnel vision and focus fire a single person. her splash damage will also hit most if not the whole enemy team giveing her the largest damage potential. Shes not THE worst 1v2 shes just really bad. One of the reasons I started playing Kayle was because she was really easy to do 1v2 solo top when I was transitioning level 20->30 and sometimes I'd have a jungler and the other team wouldn't. It may not work at higher levels, but I feel Kayle does fine in 1v2 lanes compared to most tops that can get harassed for csing under tower and clear significantly slower than her. Based on those criteria, virtually any ranged AP carry with a somewhat decent AoE nuke would be as good as Kayle 1v2 top. Except the vast majority of them aren't picked to 1v2.
Refresh my memory on which AP carries get a low mana cost AoE that enhances off of their autoattack to deal 30+ damage to each creep hit at low levels?
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what if you do wu or nasus top with a support. you can't exactly sit there and let that combo demolish all your towers, if the support has teleport and cc (like taric/leona/alistar) then it doesn't matter if jungler is pressuring other lanes since the support can just jump in every 4 minutes. 4 minutes is a long time. but in 3 it'll be even less than that, and a free farming nasus with no laning issues gets scary as all hell. not to mention guaranteed towers. teleport to help push other lanes once the two outers are taken. and nasus/wu kong can handle solo in enemy territory once fed enough. letting the top support roam after about 5-7 minutes when both towers are gone. Hell even shen top with a support like leona taric or alistar could do a lot of work. how do you dive vs a shen team with a teleport support?
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United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:27 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 02:19 TheYango wrote:On December 04 2012 02:17 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:52 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:40 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:22 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:17 57 Corvette wrote:
Why has Kayle practically disappeared from tournament play? I can't remember any nerfs to her recently, nor can I remember why everyone stopped playing her.. Lane swapping came and people had to be capable of surviving a 2v1 lane. Suddenly kayle really had no use and no lane presence. she can wave clear just fine but not farm under tower or do much to a 3 man dive. shes also weak without items. In other news birds have stopped flying. Kayle's not the worst 1v2. One thing I don't get is how she's stomping in pubs with hybrid builds. Shes got really good ap ratios and her ult is super effective when people tunnel vision and focus fire a single person. her splash damage will also hit most if not the whole enemy team giveing her the largest damage potential. Shes not THE worst 1v2 shes just really bad. One of the reasons I started playing Kayle was because she was really easy to do 1v2 solo top when I was transitioning level 20->30 and sometimes I'd have a jungler and the other team wouldn't. It may not work at higher levels, but I feel Kayle does fine in 1v2 lanes compared to most tops that can get harassed for csing under tower and clear significantly slower than her. Based on those criteria, virtually any ranged AP carry with a somewhat decent AoE nuke would be as good as Kayle 1v2 top. Except the vast majority of them aren't picked to 1v2. Refresh my memory on which AP carries get a low mana cost AoE that enhances off of their autoattack to deal 30+ damage to each creep hit at low levels?
None, but refresh my memory why an AD+support lane would let a 525 range champ get the 4-5 autoattacks within 10 seconds necessary for 30+ damage per hit to match the damage of a flat AoE nuke of similar rank.
Being ranged in a 1v2 lane means you can sneak lasthits. It does not mean you can repeatedly autoattack a creep wave.
On December 04 2012 03:27 PrinceXizor wrote:
what if you do wu or nasus top with a support. you can't exactly sit there and let that combo demolish all your towers, if the support has teleport and cc (like taric/leona/alistar) then it doesn't matter if jungler is pressuring other lanes since the support can just jump in every 4 minutes. 4 minutes is a long time. but in 3 it'll be even less than that, and a free farming nasus with no laning issues gets scary as all hell. not to mention guaranteed towers. teleport to help push other lanes once the two outers are taken. and nasus/wu kong can handle solo in enemy territory once fed enough. letting the top support roam after about 5-7 minutes when both towers are gone. Hell even shen top with a support like leona taric or alistar could do a lot of work. how do you dive vs a shen team with a teleport support?
A support with TP isn't going to countergank a permanently double-buffed jungler that's higher level than him with any reliability.
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I think you are undervaluing the power of a support like taric alistar and leona. they are pretty consistently strong at levels, AND how would jungler be permanently double buffed? no jungler doesn't mean never go for buffs. the 2nd support can ward blue/red depending on side and adding 1 ward to the bot lane support to cover the other buff is easy. all you have to do is react. which you know coordinated teams do. Also alistar/taric/leona are pretty mobile supports, and the point of teleport was to have them baby sit the weak part of their laner and take a couple quick towers, then be able to roam while still reacting to a dive anywhere.
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My personal take on 2-1-2 double support is that if you want it to work, you can't have static laning supports. To outdo a jungler, the 2 supports have to be mobile.
Essentially, 2-1-2 has to be able to adapt and have the supports double roam, somewhat like in DotA. You can't allow having 2 supports to cause you to cede map pressure. Two supports has to be able to create MORE pressure than a jungler by nature of the fact that they don't have to be farming.
This is complicated by the easy availability of wards, and the comparatively high risk entailed by carrying Oracle's as opposed to using Smoke of Deceit.
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On December 04 2012 03:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:27 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 02:19 TheYango wrote:On December 04 2012 02:17 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:52 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:40 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:22 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:17 57 Corvette wrote:
Why has Kayle practically disappeared from tournament play? I can't remember any nerfs to her recently, nor can I remember why everyone stopped playing her.. Lane swapping came and people had to be capable of surviving a 2v1 lane. Suddenly kayle really had no use and no lane presence. she can wave clear just fine but not farm under tower or do much to a 3 man dive. shes also weak without items. In other news birds have stopped flying. Kayle's not the worst 1v2. One thing I don't get is how she's stomping in pubs with hybrid builds. Shes got really good ap ratios and her ult is super effective when people tunnel vision and focus fire a single person. her splash damage will also hit most if not the whole enemy team giveing her the largest damage potential. Shes not THE worst 1v2 shes just really bad. One of the reasons I started playing Kayle was because she was really easy to do 1v2 solo top when I was transitioning level 20->30 and sometimes I'd have a jungler and the other team wouldn't. It may not work at higher levels, but I feel Kayle does fine in 1v2 lanes compared to most tops that can get harassed for csing under tower and clear significantly slower than her. Based on those criteria, virtually any ranged AP carry with a somewhat decent AoE nuke would be as good as Kayle 1v2 top. Except the vast majority of them aren't picked to 1v2. Refresh my memory on which AP carries get a low mana cost AoE that enhances off of their autoattack to deal 30+ damage to each creep hit at low levels? None, but refresh my memory why an AD+support lane would let a 525 range champ get the 4-5 autoattacks within 10 seconds necessary for 30+ damage per hit to match the damage of a flat AoE nuke of similar rank. Being ranged in a 1v2 lane means you can sneak lasthits. It does not mean you can repeatedly autoattack a creep wave.
525 range is enough to safely last hit without getting harassed freely. Tower can harass back. The splash also hits champions that walk too close without drawing creep aggro. Caitlyn is an issue though that doesn't mean Kayle is bad 1v2.
4-5 is a bit low.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:41 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:32 TheYango wrote:On December 04 2012 03:27 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 02:19 TheYango wrote:On December 04 2012 02:17 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:52 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:40 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 04 2012 01:22 Sermokala wrote:On December 04 2012 01:17 57 Corvette wrote:
Why has Kayle practically disappeared from tournament play? I can't remember any nerfs to her recently, nor can I remember why everyone stopped playing her.. Lane swapping came and people had to be capable of surviving a 2v1 lane. Suddenly kayle really had no use and no lane presence. she can wave clear just fine but not farm under tower or do much to a 3 man dive. shes also weak without items. In other news birds have stopped flying. Kayle's not the worst 1v2. One thing I don't get is how she's stomping in pubs with hybrid builds. Shes got really good ap ratios and her ult is super effective when people tunnel vision and focus fire a single person. her splash damage will also hit most if not the whole enemy team giveing her the largest damage potential. Shes not THE worst 1v2 shes just really bad. One of the reasons I started playing Kayle was because she was really easy to do 1v2 solo top when I was transitioning level 20->30 and sometimes I'd have a jungler and the other team wouldn't. It may not work at higher levels, but I feel Kayle does fine in 1v2 lanes compared to most tops that can get harassed for csing under tower and clear significantly slower than her. Based on those criteria, virtually any ranged AP carry with a somewhat decent AoE nuke would be as good as Kayle 1v2 top. Except the vast majority of them aren't picked to 1v2. Refresh my memory on which AP carries get a low mana cost AoE that enhances off of their autoattack to deal 30+ damage to each creep hit at low levels? None, but refresh my memory why an AD+support lane would let a 525 range champ get the 4-5 autoattacks within 10 seconds necessary for 30+ damage per hit to match the damage of a flat AoE nuke of similar rank. Being ranged in a 1v2 lane means you can sneak lasthits. It does not mean you can repeatedly autoattack a creep wave. 525 range is enough to safely last hit without getting harassed freely. Tower can harass back. The splash also hits champions that walk too close without drawing creep aggro. Caitlyn is an issue though that doesn't mean Kayle is bad 1v2.
It's enough to lasthit. It's NOT enough to repeatedly get enough attacks in 10 seconds for your splash damage to be equivalent to an AP carry's AoE nuke. At typical 0.6ish attack speed, that requires you to be virtually attacking on cooldown after level 3.
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I would still be concerned about getting objectives stolen because you're lacking smite. Maybe if there's a nunu or chogath involved somehow it'd work.
also, if you're going to assume your team is coordinated enough to pull this off, you also gotta assume the enemy team is coordinated enough to do some counter strategy.
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Killing their nexus, disconnect, dont get any ELO IP or the game on my history
ggriot
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Yeah but the difference is the draft advantage. you go into your draft knowing your draft they go in not knowing. if you draft nunu vayne Wu kong or something, they don't assume double support strat, and continue to draft 4 characters under the expectation of a typical game. they get a single draft pickup to attempt a counter strategy. if they don't have that ability with 1 draft choice, you are forcing the enemy to give up on their own strategy to attempt to counter your prepared strategy, that is a massive draft advantage. you are getting the draft advantage every time, and knowing that you can practice from not having a draft advantage, and as long as you execute your gameplan you should have an advantage at all stages of the game.
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On December 04 2012 03:38 PrinceXizor wrote:
I think you are undervaluing the power of a support like taric alistar and leona. they are pretty consistently strong at levels, AND how would jungler be permanently double buffed? no jungler doesn't mean never go for buffs. the 2nd support can ward blue/red depending on side and adding 1 ward to the bot lane support to cover the other buff is easy. all you have to do is react. which you know coordinated teams do. Also alistar/taric/leona are pretty mobile supports, and the point of teleport was to have them baby sit the weak part of their laner and take a couple quick towers, then be able to roam while still reacting to a dive anywhere.
So when you react to bottom buff you send your support + carry to the buff, and maybe mid. They have their jungler already there. Then the laners see their opponents leave and follow. It's 4vs3 for them, you can't defend that buff.
And if your entire plan is early towers then roam, you're banking on that global gold being worth more than jungle gold. The lane becomes less safe and your roamer no farm/exp.
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well you don't have to worry about the first set of buffs, remember. since 3 people can take blue and 2 can take red rather easily. so you know the exact timing, and they do not. you can shove your lane in coordination to your buff spawn and retake them. enemy jungle will be respawning roughly the same time. It's fully possible to coordinate your lanes to keep your buff control with no chance of them being taken.
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garens a lot tankier than darius if you both itemize tanky and his ult does more damage against squishies at level 16. The bigger issue is that darius id absurdly strong in lane, doing magic, true and physical damage as well has having a slow, a speed buff, a pull a dot, and a ranged harass. He might not be OP but its a lot to do with the 2v1 1v2ing thing though.
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I can understand all the ADC's going flash/cleanse but support going flash/ignite??? Exhaust just seems like a much smarter choice on the support, but I saw this run quite a bit at IPL (at least from nRated/fzzf)
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On December 04 2012 03:56 PrinceXizor wrote:
well you don't have to worry about the first set of buffs, remember. since 3 people can take blue and 2 can take red rather easily.
when i tried ad carry top - trilane bruiser bot we tried to jungle like this, a good invade like those happening in pro games with wards will shut it down easily. even a pub invade with no wards and no real coordination will stop it.
maybe i'm lucky because i have 4 friends crazy enough to break meta, but a lot of the crazier strategies like double jungle, dual mid etc., 2-1-2, trilanes, etc. if you try them once or twice you can see where they fall short. you can't do them just by wishing it; you need a keen sense of timing for all your heroes, as well as a much more detailed plan to account or hide those weaknesses.
with standard play vs metabreakers, a lot of times you can just play safe, don't die, and you can pick them apart later if they don't hit their timings.
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Re 2-1-2:
iG tried it in a showmatch vs M5, and while they had an advantage early, their mid eventually got really behind and then M5 got complete dragon control.
Obviously Jax/Elise/Ori/Graves/Nunu will play differently than the proposed setups, but the enemy jungler will get enough farm to compensate for the duo sidelanes having slightly lane advantage. Without your own jungler, you can't dive the solo lane very well in the 2v1, so you end up with far less map pressure.
Then you get to midgame fights and your team has 0 aura items with two 0 cs supports, while the enemy jungler is packing Aegis. Even with naturally tanky supports like Leo/Taric/Ali, the XP difference is huge. The enemy will hit their lvl 2 or lvl 3 ults faster as a group compared to the lane XP splitting and inefficient jungle XP coverage
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EPT
