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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On September 01 2012 06:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes i forgot kayle, in solo queue teams won't coordinate to play vs skarner, if they only pick karthus or someone it's fine, people will get caught later and you can change the game like always. But in 5s if you pick skarner early and the other team really thinks up a comp to play around it it will be very difficult for you to be effective, won't mean you can't pick the rest of your comp around theirs but either way you're not gonna be nearly as effective compared to solo queue. I think he's really good obviously but there are safer and better early game junglers that have more of an impact in 5s than skarner. In solo queue I try to get him every game.
What would you say are some safer picks in usual circumstances, if you want to 2nd pick a jungler, or why would you generally prefer to first pick/3rd-later pick your jungler?
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Skaner's scaling is meh, actually. He's good from ahead and meh from behind outside of a carry going full retard and getting ulted AND not having QSS. That happens sometimes in solo queue, but it's increasingly less frequent the higher you go.
As for "safe jungler picks" -- they're almost ALL safe picks. The ones you have to be leery of picking early at the handful with an awful level 1 and rigid early path such as Rammus, Nautilus, and Amumu, though Rammus is the worst of the bunch.
It's a mixed bag in solo queue. On the one hand people like to AFK before the game starts and/or sidelanes bee-line to AFK by a tower, so there are fewer coordinated 5 man level 1 invades. However that's true for both sides, so a 4 man invade can still work when you only have 3-4 people defending.
Anyway, if you get your first 1.5 clear done without incident you're basically fine on the weaker early junglers. When you lose out on 1 or more big buffs it really hurts because of the exp loss. If you want to pick a weak early jungler you need strong early laners to shore up that early weakness. You also need to ward the side you aren't starting at.
In solo queue a HUGE number of people will try to steal red against a weak early jungler like Rammus. It's basically a free 400g if you ward it and have a team that can and does react.
But anyway, your safest picks (in general and in this order) jungler, ad/support, mid, top. There are exceptions, as certain laners don't give a fuck what you pick and can therefore be picked early (e.g. Yorick). You can also pick a nebulous champion (i.e. one who can comfortably do a combination of top, jungle, and/or mid) and swap accordingly if they try to counterpick.
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On September 01 2012 06:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes i forgot kayle, in solo queue teams won't coordinate to play vs skarner, if they only pick karthus or someone it's fine, people will get caught later and you can change the game like always. But in 5s if you pick skarner early and the other team really thinks up a comp to play around it it will be very difficult for you to be effective, won't mean you can't pick the rest of your comp around theirs but either way you're not gonna be nearly as effective compared to solo queue. I think he's really good obviously but there are safer and better early game junglers that have more of an impact in 5s than skarner. In solo queue I try to get him every game.
I'll preface this by saying I have almost no jungle experience and I'm just trying to learn about some jungle champions.
For solo queue specifically, why is it you guys seem to rate Skarner that much higher than Nautilus? I mean they're both relatively weak early, but isn't Nautilus more disruptive in teamfights, with better pre-6 ganking?
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On September 01 2012 07:38 Agnosthar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 06:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes i forgot kayle, in solo queue teams won't coordinate to play vs skarner, if they only pick karthus or someone it's fine, people will get caught later and you can change the game like always. But in 5s if you pick skarner early and the other team really thinks up a comp to play around it it will be very difficult for you to be effective, won't mean you can't pick the rest of your comp around theirs but either way you're not gonna be nearly as effective compared to solo queue. I think he's really good obviously but there are safer and better early game junglers that have more of an impact in 5s than skarner. In solo queue I try to get him every game. I'll preface this by saying I have almost no jungle experience and I'm just trying to learn about some jungle champions. For solo queue specifically, why is it you guys seem to rate Skarner that much higher than Nautilus? I mean they're both relatively weak early, but isn't Nautilus more disruptive in teamfights, with better pre-6 ganking?
Nautilius is still good in solo queue, but you get abused by a lot of fast junglers early on. He has really low base armor making him extremely squishy, he loses a lot of health in his early jungles and he can´t clear red/golems early vs an aggressive jungler without risking dieing.
Nunu and Shyvana are safe picks, but while shyvanas early and mid game is good she brings nothing to lategame teamfights. Maokai and Malphite are generally safer than amumu/nautilius.
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Nautilus can clear well enough with armor reds, yellows and quints, as Seuss demonstrated. He lacks movespeed then though.
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Shyv soaks and does strong damage to the back line. Her problem is that solo queue picks don't let themselves to having a proper initiate and good amount of CC.
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On September 01 2012 08:11 Alaric wrote:
Nautilus can clear well enough with armor reds, yellows and quints, as Seuss demonstrated. He lacks movespeed then though.
Even runed for it he is very slow at high HP camps. He excels on the small AoE camps. This slowless makes him vulnerable to counterjungling on his buffs because a.) he's there for a long period, b.) he takes a lot of damage by virtue of being hit for an extended period, and c.) if you get him behind you can just keep pressuring him and he can't do much about it.
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On September 01 2012 07:38 Agnosthar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 06:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes i forgot kayle, in solo queue teams won't coordinate to play vs skarner, if they only pick karthus or someone it's fine, people will get caught later and you can change the game like always. But in 5s if you pick skarner early and the other team really thinks up a comp to play around it it will be very difficult for you to be effective, won't mean you can't pick the rest of your comp around theirs but either way you're not gonna be nearly as effective compared to solo queue. I think he's really good obviously but there are safer and better early game junglers that have more of an impact in 5s than skarner. In solo queue I try to get him every game. I'll preface this by saying I have almost no jungle experience and I'm just trying to learn about some jungle champions. For solo queue specifically, why is it you guys seem to rate Skarner that much higher than Nautilus? I mean they're both relatively weak early, but isn't Nautilus more disruptive in teamfights, with better pre-6 ganking?
For level 1, If you invade skarner early and he sees you, he will permaslow you with solid damage while a laner shows up. What can nautilus do?
Skarner doesn't have the best pre-6 ganks in the universe, but he is VERY fast-moving (compared to Nautilus 300 base movespeed) and if he can get his permaslow on you, you're in big trouble.
In soloqueue, people overextend or get caught out of position often. Skarner can catch people out of position in ways that very few can match up to.
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If you invade 1v1 vs Skarner he should be dead. You don't arbitrarily level 1 invade with the idea that "either he isn't here or I die." That's just stupid.
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On September 01 2012 06:20 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 04:28 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 01 2012 03:56 Scip wrote:On September 01 2012 03:54 sylverfyre wrote:On September 01 2012 03:40 Scip wrote:
Skarner is so overrated in 5s, getting second picked by Dignitas exactly as I explained he should be picked in my post. Coincidence? More like great minds think alike. :3 Disagree that he's overrated. But he should work with a teamcomp that likes to kidnap someone and instantly blow them up without using multiple ultimates no matter how tanky the kidnap target is. Moonbear wrote about the Skarner+doubleAP combos, for example. I meant that at zulu_nation8, who said that Skarner is overrated. I disagree with him, same as you, Skarner is an amazing second pick. Though I wouldn't necessarily agree that he works best with double AP, he is good with them for sure. I said hes overrated in 5s, hes #1 jungler in solo queue. I don't know see what Dig did but if you pick skarner early theres a lot of ways the other team can fuck with you. So why are so many teams having such success with him? The threat of being kidnapped and exploded exerts a lot of zoning power, especially after Skarner finishes Shurelias Reverie. He doesn't need much - if anything - in the way of offensive items in order to be effective, and not only is his Ultimate scary, the permaslow on him is also great for peeling or chasing. It's hard to defend a turret with skarner and his team sieging it. He will pull you right out from under your tower for his team to blow you up if you don't respect his presence (much like Urgot.) He's not exactly a pushover level 1 like Amumu is, either. Yes, he really wants that level 1 blue, and if you can deny him early blue, it slows him down a lot. Sure, he can't be the one to initiate a level 1 fight (unless you're stupidly facechecking him and his team), but if a fight starts, he brings a lot of damage, AoE, and permaslow right from level 1 - he's scary to fight/invade against, because even at level 1, he can catch you bigtime - as long as his team can provide a decent anti-invasion level 1 so you don't get simply rolled over.
No ones picking him? DIG picked him once and then saint picked him once two MLGs ago. Who's having success running skarner comps?
Yes I understand how skarner works
Yes I understand he's not a pushover lv1, what I mean by weak early is he doesn't have the same presence in 5s as maokai/nunu/alistar early game, you can't gank as creatively as them and you need a super good angle.
Yes I understand that's how skarner works in teamfights. My opinion about skarner takes into account all of what you just said.
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Pm me your user name, not summoner name, and I might be Abe to get you the riot graves and sona skins. No promises. Quick.
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On September 01 2012 06:39 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 06:20 zulu_nation8 wrote:
yes i forgot kayle, in solo queue teams won't coordinate to play vs skarner, if they only pick karthus or someone it's fine, people will get caught later and you can change the game like always. But in 5s if you pick skarner early and the other team really thinks up a comp to play around it it will be very difficult for you to be effective, won't mean you can't pick the rest of your comp around theirs but either way you're not gonna be nearly as effective compared to solo queue. I think he's really good obviously but there are safer and better early game junglers that have more of an impact in 5s than skarner. In solo queue I try to get him every game. What would you say are some safer picks in usual circumstances, if you want to 2nd pick a jungler, or why would you generally prefer to first pick/3rd-later pick your jungler?
Every jungler who's played right now in tournies aside from nautilus, mundo/shyv/malphite/nunu/udyr/maokai. Shyv less so than others, I think malph is kind of a slow jungler and not that great at ganknig early so maybe he can be messed with. I'd consider hecarim safer than skarner. In my experience, if you first pick any of the champions listed above 1st, there's really not that much you can do to react until you see more of their picks, which is ofc not true at all for skarner.
AD first usually, then depends, sometimes support should be picked after a solo imo, but most often top last. Jungler depends.
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On September 01 2012 07:21 Craton wrote:
Skaner's scaling is meh, actually. He's good from ahead and meh from behind outside of a carry going full retard and getting ulted AND not having QSS. That happens sometimes in solo queue, but it's increasingly less frequent the higher you go.
As for "safe jungler picks" -- they're almost ALL safe picks. The ones you have to be leery of picking early at the handful with an awful level 1 and rigid early path such as Rammus, Nautilus, and Amumu, though Rammus is the worst of the bunch.
It's a mixed bag in solo queue. On the one hand people like to AFK before the game starts and/or sidelanes bee-line to AFK by a tower, so there are fewer coordinated 5 man level 1 invades. However that's true for both sides, so a 4 man invade can still work when you only have 3-4 people defending.
Anyway, if you get your first 1.5 clear done without incident you're basically fine on the weaker early junglers. When you lose out on 1 or more big buffs it really hurts because of the exp loss. If you want to pick a weak early jungler you need strong early laners to shore up that early weakness. You also need to ward the side you aren't starting at.
In solo queue a HUGE number of people will try to steal red against a weak early jungler like Rammus. It's basically a free 400g if you ward it and have a team that can and does react.
But anyway, your safest picks (in general and in this order) jungler, ad/support, mid, top. There are exceptions, as certain laners don't give a fuck what you pick and can therefore be picked early (e.g. Yorick). You can also pick a nebulous champion (i.e. one who can comfortably do a combination of top, jungle, and/or mid) and swap accordingly if they try to counterpick.
At lv4 I feel like I need two points in each of rammus's abilities.
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On September 01 2012 09:36 Sufficiency wrote:
Pm me your user name, not summoner name, and I might be Abe to get you the riot graves and sona skins. No promises. Quick.
I managed to enter about 5. But their program kind of bugged out so I don't know if everyone I entered got through. Even if it did, the program says it might take a while before you are credited with the skins.
What happened was that at pax you could enter your user me and you can get the skins( no codes). I lined up twice and I was able to type in a few tler 's username
I couldn't enter a lot though. There were a lot of people behind me waiting as well and I only felt comfortable entering so many. Alaric, shake, dgie, celestrial, and I believe another person were the ones I entered.
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On September 01 2012 10:18 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 09:36 Sufficiency wrote:
Pm me your user name, not summoner name, and I might be Abe to get you the riot graves and sona skins. No promises. Quick. I managed to enter about 5. But their program kind of bugged out so I don't know if everyone I entered got through. Even if it did, the program says it might take a while before you are credited with the skins. What happened was that at pax you could enter your user me and you can get the skins( no codes). I lined up twice and I was able to type in a few tler 's username I couldn't enter a lot though. There were a lot of people behind me waiting as well and I only felt comfortable entering so many. Alaric, shake, dgie, celestrial, and I believe another person were the ones I entered.
Well then get in line again!!!!!!!
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Wtf enter me plz I want that Sona skin so badly
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Ah well unless it lets you enter names and specify the server you probably made some anonymous guy happy (Armoric on NA is taken by some dude that seems to barely play). ^^' Thanks for trying anyway!
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TF's Ulti pops Banshees..
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On September 01 2012 10:33 Alaric wrote:
Ah well unless it lets you enter names and specify the server you probably made some anonymous guy happy (Armoric on NA is taken by some dude that seems to barely play). ^^' Thanks for trying anyway!
Actually I specifically chose euw when entering yours.
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EPT
