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On August 22 2012 05:10 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:05 D u o wrote:
tobiwan shitting on the lol community on real talk. He has some nice points. But... he doesn't understand much about how the finances behind LoL and Riot works. To be fair, Riot doesn't make a lot public financial disclosures.
While i understand his point the amount of weekly cups going in LoL shows the community is very much alive. It helps to have tens of millions of players i guess :p
I do wonder 1 thing tho. Tobi mentioned he talked to a faw fair Pro LoL players on berlin and they dislike the scene but stick around for the money. Wonder who that would be.
For those that didnt hear it.
Tobi, a Dota2 caster, was talking about how the giant piles of cash being thrown at tournaments by Riot is stopping smaller tournaments from forming since no one will watch them because there isnt X million on the line and doesnt pull the big teams (who supposedly only show up when big money is involved).
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On August 22 2012 05:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Let's face it unichan was terrible poster anyway.
What happened to unichan anyway?
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As far as the direction of LoL esports is going, I think a final product of what esports is going to be, is going to exclude Riot out of the actual season formats and what not~, It'll have to be a 3rd party organization, similar to MLB, NFL, and NBA. But since LoL esports is still fairly young, I have no problem with Riot being the big bank roller on a lot of the prizemoney. I just want to know how they got the projection models that suggests, investing that much money into esports scene is going to equivocate to $$$ into Riot's pockets. Riot is a business, they're main concern is making money; I personally don't see it being a sustainable model.
I call BS, on the weekly tourney thing. TSM invitationals, constantly over 25k viewers, sometimes 30k+.
The only tourneys that I'd say sorta hurting, are just IPL qualifiers, but that's because they're qualifiers, with small unknown teams.
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On August 22 2012 05:14 D u o wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:10 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 22 2012 05:05 D u o wrote:
tobiwan shitting on the lol community on real talk. He has some nice points. But... he doesn't understand much about how the finances behind LoL and Riot works. To be fair, Riot doesn't make a lot public financial disclosures. Toddler with a sports car??? I mean I think its the biggest scene right now for a reason, people could be playing dota or HoN but riot knows what they're doing and they care about their pro scene probably more than blizzard does. :X Sure money dumping into organizations isn't the best thing to do but with how much revenue they're making off their f2p model it seems like they can afford to do it or they wouldn't be doing it.
He has a fair point with the toddler analogy. Riot Games is a very new company that has somehow hit the homerun and created one of the biggest successes in the gaming industry in like... ever. But if he thinks Riot is all about just dumping money he's mistaken there. The guys in charge of Riot were people who used to work at like Merrill Lynch, (old) Blizzard, First Mark Capital and NASCAR. They're not stupid. They have a plan for the long game. Tobi is wrong if he thinks Riot is actually putting up $30 million in cash up front themselves to pay for Season 3.
That, and Riot Games needs to be brutal when it comes to competition. LoL is all they have. Valve could never ever make a game ever again. Running DotA and TF2 could lose them money. And none of it would matter because the distribution platform of Steam makes them more than enough money to cover everything. Riot has no fall back plan. Either LoL succeeds, or they go bust. Can't play nice guy when you have to fight for your commercial life.
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On August 22 2012 05:20 RogerX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Let's face it unichan was terrible poster anyway. What happened to unichan anyway?
Trolls in KMD all day.
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On August 22 2012 05:17 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:10 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 22 2012 05:05 D u o wrote:
tobiwan shitting on the lol community on real talk. He has some nice points. But... he doesn't understand much about how the finances behind LoL and Riot works. To be fair, Riot doesn't make a lot public financial disclosures. While i understand his point the amount of weekly cups going in LoL shows the community is very much alive. It helps to have tens of millions of players i guess :p I do wonder 1 thing tho. Tobi mentioned he talked to a faw fair Pro LoL players on berlin and they dislike the scene but stick around for the money. Wonder who that would be. For those that didnt hear it. Tobi, a Dota2 caster, was talking about how the giant piles of cash being thrown at tournaments by Riot is stopping smaller tournaments from forming since no one will watch them because there isnt X million on the line and doesnt pull the big teams (who supposedly only show up when big money is involved).
MLG still has their open bracket though, I mean sc2 has the smaller tournament scene which no one watches but they're there for people to practice in a tournament scenario to build themselves up to attend locals and possibly bigger tournaments. The smaller tournaments aren't going to get viewership because they're smaller, major events are ALWAYS going to have the better teams attending and playing as hard as possible where some of the smaller online tournaments shouldn't get a bunch of the big teams they should be mainly for the newer less known teams to get their tournament groove going, and team building so that they can potentially do well at the open bracket teams.
I think the vast majority of people who play league are people who just want an easier moba. I say "easier" but I mean mechanically, all competitors should know this but even if the game is super simple when you're going up against another human being there isn't really a skill cap because its not you vs the game its you vs another person. And most of the people who watch tournaments/streams are because they want to improve.
I mean hating something because it has a bigger crowd and more support is kind of dumb. Even if a lot of the pro's leave league to dota2 the game isn't going to die, itll just open spots for newer unknown players to take the spotlight.
On August 22 2012 05:22 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
He has a fair point with the toddler analogy. Riot Games is a very new company that has somehow hit the homerun and created one of the biggest successes in the gaming industry in like... ever. But if he thinks Riot is all about just dumping money he's mistaken there. The guys in charge of Riot were people who used to work at like Merrill Lynch, (old) Blizzard, First Mark Capital and NASCAR. They're not stupid. They have a plan for the long game. Tobi is wrong if he thinks Riot is actually putting up $30 million in cash up front themselves to pay for Season 3.
That, and Riot Games needs to be brutal when it comes to competition. LoL is all they have. Valve could never ever make a game ever again. Running DotA and TF2 could lose them money. And none of it would matter because the distribution platform of Steam makes them more than enough money to cover everything. Riot has no fall back plan. Either LoL succeeds, or they go bust. Can't play nice guy when you have to fight for your commercial life.
Sure the COMPANY is new but a lot of people in the company have been in and near gaming for their years. Matt Marcou has been around since dota and been on the inside of teams. I feel riot has a good understanding about what they have to do to stay on top.
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Yeah riot actually cares about their game's success because it's literally all they have. They need to make their company look good and draw people in. There is no fallback plan. It's simply "this game has some of the best mids behind it, an it's a good game, so play it."
It's not like Zynga games where they steal an idea, put as little money into it as possible, and then make it so you can pay money to get stronger. Then once people get bored or frustrated with the game and leave, they close down and go "hey, we see you bought game cash, you can transfer it to this other shitty game that is exactly the same but newer, or you lose the cash for good!"
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One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds).
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On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds).
Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports.
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On August 22 2012 05:17 Gorsameth wrote:
Tobi, a Dota2 caster, was talking about how the giant piles of cash being thrown at tournaments by Riot is stopping smaller tournaments from forming since no one will watch them because there isnt X million on the line and doesnt pull the big teams (who supposedly only show up when big money is involved).
Which is funny because tournaments like GO4LoL or the 4PL Play4Fame and the TSM Invitational are all ridiculously popular events.
I'd say the small tournaments are doing just fine.
Plus, Riot has done something a lot better than anything Blizzard has done with an actual professional circuit and continuous rankings, etc.
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On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports.
The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE.
pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized.
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On August 22 2012 05:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports. The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE. pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized.
I'm all for riot giving players money as long as they don't do what mlg did with halo and self sponsored them and excluded external sponsors. That can also be really bad. I remember a MLG event in halo where the "pro" teams were sponsored by mlg and a bunch of kids in tshirts and blue jeans wrecked the jersey teams because there wasn't really a drive to be the best since the "best" teams were self sponsored by mlg, so it didnt matter if you beat the other teams because mlg NEEDED all the teams to make a competitive bracket. But I don't think riot's sponsorship deal will conflict with other potential team sponsors.
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Tobi doesn't know what he's talking about. "You're not judged by your skill level?" But the rune/mastery system adds an extra level of depth. You dont PAY for anything, you don't PAY to become stronger. Everyone has access to the same champions at the exact same time paying is just an alternate use to get the champion and runes aren't even able to be bought. You can't BUY in game items or power that a person who isn't going to pay can't get.
All games have a skill cap. Dota's in undeniably higher. But you're not playing against a "cup" you're playing against another player, assuming you're at the same skill cap mechanically, you're still playing vs another player and people make mistakes who ever makes the least amount of mistakes wins. This even applies in dota sure there are LESS people at the highest tier of players but this still applies.
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On August 22 2012 05:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports. The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE. pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized.
the important thing to keep in mind tho, is that esports are by no means an established thing. Very few (relatively speaking) have any inkling of the money to be made in esports, which in turn makes sponsorships and whatnot more difficult to come by, meaning there's no foundation upon which to create any independent organization for overseeing leagues. I think that, yes, at some point riot has to step down as the primary fund/overseer of the leagues, but until that day comes, their objective should be to put esports on the map to give the rest of the western world a wakeup call, and in that respect, I think their season 3 league is a good move.
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On August 22 2012 05:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports. The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE. pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized.
Most sports don't have their IP owned by a company though 
Riot benefits from creating a competitive LoL scene (even though the game technically still doesn't support e-sports very well, in that aspect they can learn a lot from DotA2), more people who watch LoL will be more people who play it.
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On August 22 2012 05:53 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports. The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE. pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized. the important thing to keep in mind tho, is that esports are by no means an established thing. Very few (relatively speaking) have any inkling of the money to be made in esports, which in turn makes sponsorships and whatnot more difficult to come by, meaning there's no foundation upon which to create any independent organization for overseeing leagues. I think that, yes, at some point riot has to step down as the primary fund/overseer of the leagues, but until that day comes, their objective should be to put esports on the map to give the rest of the western world a wakeup call, and in that respect, I think their season 3 league is a good move.
The best esports formula fitted the pro-sports formula pretty well. SC:BW in korea had best overall setup (despite kespa slavedriver hiccups, and random arbitrary rules). Eventually if LoL esports grows, I hope it grows in direction sc:bw did~
On August 22 2012 05:56 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports. The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE. pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized. Most sports don't have their IP owned by a company though Riot benefits from creating a competitive LoL scene (even though the game technically still doesn't support e-sports very well, in that aspect they can learn a lot from DotA2), more people who watch LoL will be more people who play it.
I mentioned that it would be sustainable for a few seasons, due to the introduction of bigger audience, but eventually growth will stop~, especially if it's F2P, it'll end up like basketball, where you spend 10 bucks on a ball, and you find a court, and it's easy to play. Eventually the sport has to be self sustaining, and non-centralized.
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On August 22 2012 05:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports. The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE. pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized.
if you look back on the history of pro sports in the US, for a VERY long time nobody was making a lot of money. people became involved in it because for one reason or another they loved what they were doing. in the nba magic johnson and larry bird, followed by michael jordan, really brought the sport into the mainstream, and caused a huge influx of cash. the results of what these players did are still felt today. david stern (the current nba boss) will probably be viewed as a visionary for the way he has shaped his leagues image and marketing. there is no one like david stern in esports that i am currently aware of.
also, tv contracts can oftentimes make or break a team. look up the LA dodgers recent contract negotiations with Fox (i think it was fox) and what a crucial impact that made on the team (the owner was forced to sell when he couldnt complete the tv deal). tv contracts for the nfl also bring in literally billions of dollars.
its easy to be fooled by the current state of pro sports. it wasnt always like this, and took decades to reach the point it is at now. LoL (and esports in general) will need a fat tv contract before they are self-sustainable. also a truly household name in esports would go a long way to increasing the amount of outside money that is contributed.
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On August 22 2012 05:56 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:41 wei2coolman wrote:On August 22 2012 05:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2012 05:33 red_ wrote:
One thing I do like, and though Tobi didn't say it outright the direction his talk went did give some props to it, is the circuit/seasonal approach Riot has taken. Tobi mentioned that you need to keep teams/pros/spectators all involved for more than just 'that event.' Pro sports have long seasons that build up tension to playoffs, and a 'world championship.' MLG has adopted this, and it's worked wonders for them(long before SC2 was even a game for them). OSL/GSL in Korea work differently, but have the same effect(multiple, long lasting events, that crescendo a viewers interest then give them a slight break because all high-tension all the time is actually a bad model as somewhat counter-intuitive as that sounds). Isnt that exactly what Riot is doing with Season 3 tho? turning it into an actual league with promotion/demotion just like regular sports. The difference between this and actual pro-sports is MASSIVE. pro-sports are ran by a 3rd party organization; they don't bankroll prizemoney, nor do they pay the players; they're "non-profit"; The sport is supposed to be self-sustainable, through other 3rd party companies (advertizing, sponserships etc etc.), that means non-centralized. Most sports don't have their IP owned by a company though Riot benefits from creating a competitive LoL scene ( even though the game technically still doesn't support e-sports very well, in that aspect they can learn a lot from DotA2), more people who watch LoL will be more people who play it.
i don't understand what that means. Esports is, plain and simple, mass viewership of broadcast events. I don't see how LoL is any better/worse at that than any other moba. The only thing I think LoL could really take directly from dota is having team icons displayed in the spawn and UI.
edit: literally any video game that becomes competitively mainstream will be a solid foundation for esports. It doesn't have to be the most competitive or w/e, IMO, it just has to make the rest of the world realize that there IS viewership potential in competitive video games.
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To be honest... I think some of the bitterness about LoL from the DotA community is that there is somewhat an amount of jealousy. The DotA community has had to work so hard in order to become as big as it is, and was such a painful experience for them to become big. But here comes LoL which somehow becomes the big overnight hit without the growing pains DotA had. And LoL is an easier game so it just seems wrong. "Why can't the real game be the popular one? Why is some upstart copycat more popular and bigger?" So it's understandable why they're so angry about it. I just wish everyone could get along. Ah well. C'est la vie.
On a side note though... Do you guys remember the Riot World Invitational? The thing where Snoopeh had subtitiles. Yeah, that thing. I'm not sure how many of you noticed... but do you remember who the sponsors were? Ford and Nestle.
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Spamhappy needs to stop playing bruiser LeBlanc. It's such a terrible way to play her.
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On August 22 2012 06:07 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
To be honest... I think some of the bitterness about LoL from the DotA community is that there is somewhat an amount of jealousy. The DotA community has had to work so hard in order to become as big as it is, and was such a painful experience for them to become big. But here comes LoL which somehow becomes the big overnight hit without the growing pains DotA had. And LoL is an easier game so it just seems wrong. "Why can't the real game be the popular one? Why is some upstart copycat more popular and bigger?" So it's understandable why they're so angry about it. I just wish everyone could get along. Ah well. C'est la vie.
On a side note though... Do you guys remember the Riot World Invitational? The thing where Snoopeh had subtitiles. Yeah, that thing. I'm not sure how many of you noticed... but do you remember who the sponsors were? Ford and Nestle.
I just hate it when people say a game shouldn't have a competitive scene because its an "easier" game. BW was stupidly difficult but does that mean that sc2 shouldn't have a competitive scene because it takes less skill? No. There will be MORE people who can hit the top tier of play and THAT makes it MORE competitive in my eyes because its not player vs player vs the game its player vs player. You're going up against another human and not how difficult the game is. Lol should have more top tier teams because the game is easier meaning more competition and more strategies, the ideas of what is possible and what isn't in game wont stagnate for a long time because there SHOULD be more players at a higher tier of play meaning more people thinking about how to beat each other and what are the better strategies. In league you should see LESS screw ups because the game is mechanically easier and that in itself is more of a draw for me to watch.
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EPT
