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On August 14 2012 07:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:03 HazMat wrote:
Teams don't do arranged 5s because the teams that they can actually learn from playing against they can just scrim without waiting in a 40 minute queue. But to actually be in a position to scrim these teams you have to known the players which means you have to be High Elo. I don't think anyone's arguing that there's some magically hidden player who's talented in a 5-player setting, but can't climb the solo queue ladder. Obviously you still need the fundamentals, regardless of whether you're playing pubs or arranged play, and anyone with good enough fundamentals to to compete on a professional team with any reasonable success should be able to get to high Elo. It's really the other side of the coin where it's relevant--that there are a lot of high Elo solo queue players that have good fundamentals but have attitudes or mindsets that are ultimately incompatible with competitive team play. And some of these people (I won't say who they are, but I'm fairly certain everyone can at least think of one such person on a competitive team) are still on teams anyway, and the issues that arise due to their attitudes have been obviously relevant to the success or lack thereof of those teams.
Diamondprox was a 1600 scrub when he got picked up by M5. Shortly before Kiev.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On August 14 2012 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 14 2012 07:13 Slayer91 wrote:On August 14 2012 06:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 14 2012 06:41 HazMat wrote:
ITT: People sad about their Elo so they act like arranged 5s is some super serious game mode and solo queue is a joke. that's like saying taking the top 5 elo solo q players would give an even match vs any proteam lol. Take the top elo mid, support, ad, jungle, and top players and I'm sure they'll do fine against a lot of proteams. I'm not sure how pub play worked in dota but was it based on elo system? In any case the longer the game evolves the more likely it is skill level increases and teamcomp becomes more important I suppose. pub dota is considered a joke, and something pro dota players only do for fun, nowhere near the prestige and caliber of arranged played. i don't see why the same wouldn't hold true for league. i'm not saying solo q elo is meaningless, if you're high elo chances are you're better than low elo at this game, significantly. but that's still meaningless at the very highest level of play. edit: yeah that yango said  The consistently best performing players in competitive 5's right now tend to be the ones performing the best in solo queue and the people who don't do well in solo queue aren't. To me there's an obvious direct correlation and for people who haven't been in the highest elo solo queue I don't see why you should think to say it's meaningless.
as yango said, there are tons of people who are at the top of the solo q ladder who are completely irrelevant in competitive play. Plenty of players on the most successful teams aren't in the top 5, 10, 50, 100 of solo queue ladders. Sure they're all "high elo," but to think solo q elo is a good predictor of competitive success is very silly...
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On August 14 2012 07:42 Celial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:30 TheYango wrote:On August 14 2012 07:03 HazMat wrote:
Teams don't do arranged 5s because the teams that they can actually learn from playing against they can just scrim without waiting in a 40 minute queue. But to actually be in a position to scrim these teams you have to known the players which means you have to be High Elo. I don't think anyone's arguing that there's some magically hidden player who's talented in a 5-player setting, but can't climb the solo queue ladder. Obviously you still need the fundamentals, regardless of whether you're playing pubs or arranged play, and anyone with good enough fundamentals to to compete on a professional team with any reasonable success should be able to get to high Elo. It's really the other side of the coin where it's relevant--that there are a lot of high Elo solo queue players that have good fundamentals but have attitudes or mindsets that are ultimately incompatible with competitive team play. And some of these people (I won't say who they are, but I'm fairly certain everyone can at least think of one such person on a competitive team) are still on teams anyway, and the issues that arise due to their attitudes have been obviously relevant to the success or lack thereof of those teams. Diamondprox was a 1600 scrub when he got picked up by M5. Shortly before Kiev.
? Before kiev he was a top 5 EUW jungler with 70% winrates on 7 or so junglers...
Where do people get this stuff from? Stream chat? RIP Scarra!
How do I know? I checked his profile during Kiev.
There's people at the top of the solo q ladder who are irrevelant because they aren't in teams and possible don't even want teams
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Baa?21248 Posts
On August 14 2012 07:43 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:42 Celial wrote:On August 14 2012 07:30 TheYango wrote:On August 14 2012 07:03 HazMat wrote:
Teams don't do arranged 5s because the teams that they can actually learn from playing against they can just scrim without waiting in a 40 minute queue. But to actually be in a position to scrim these teams you have to known the players which means you have to be High Elo. I don't think anyone's arguing that there's some magically hidden player who's talented in a 5-player setting, but can't climb the solo queue ladder. Obviously you still need the fundamentals, regardless of whether you're playing pubs or arranged play, and anyone with good enough fundamentals to to compete on a professional team with any reasonable success should be able to get to high Elo. It's really the other side of the coin where it's relevant--that there are a lot of high Elo solo queue players that have good fundamentals but have attitudes or mindsets that are ultimately incompatible with competitive team play. And some of these people (I won't say who they are, but I'm fairly certain everyone can at least think of one such person on a competitive team) are still on teams anyway, and the issues that arise due to their attitudes have been obviously relevant to the success or lack thereof of those teams. Diamondprox was a 1600 scrub when he got picked up by M5. Shortly before Kiev. ? Before kiev he was a top 5 EUW jungler with 70% winrates on 7 or so junglers... Where do people get this stuff from? Stream chat? RIP Scarra! How do I know? I checked his profile during Kiev. There's people at the top of the solo q ladder who are irrevelant because they aren't in teams and possible don't even want teams
and there are also people who aren't on top of the solo queue ladders but ARE relevant. Just look at TSM, they don't grind solo queue because they know it doesn't do them any good for competitive play, and they're on top of the NA scene.
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On August 14 2012 07:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:On August 14 2012 07:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 14 2012 07:13 Slayer91 wrote:On August 14 2012 06:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 14 2012 06:41 HazMat wrote:
ITT: People sad about their Elo so they act like arranged 5s is some super serious game mode and solo queue is a joke. that's like saying taking the top 5 elo solo q players would give an even match vs any proteam lol. Take the top elo mid, support, ad, jungle, and top players and I'm sure they'll do fine against a lot of proteams. I'm not sure how pub play worked in dota but was it based on elo system? In any case the longer the game evolves the more likely it is skill level increases and teamcomp becomes more important I suppose. pub dota is considered a joke, and something pro dota players only do for fun, nowhere near the prestige and caliber of arranged played. i don't see why the same wouldn't hold true for league. i'm not saying solo q elo is meaningless, if you're high elo chances are you're better than low elo at this game, significantly. but that's still meaningless at the very highest level of play. edit: yeah that yango said The consistently best performing players in competitive 5's right now tend to be the ones performing the best in solo queue and the people who don't do well in solo queue aren't. To me there's an obvious direct correlation and for people who haven't been in the highest elo solo queue I don't see why you should think to say it's meaningless. as yango said, there are tons of people who are at the top of the solo q ladder who are completely irrelevant in competitive play. Plenty of players on the most successful teams aren't in the top 5, 10, 50, 100 of solo queue ladders. Sure they're all "high elo," but to think solo q elo is a good predictor of competitive success is very silly...
I think that most people with a very high Elo who are not on a team either because;
a) Don't want to be on a team at all.
b) Don't want to be on any of the teams that they're currently able to join/try out for.
c) Have a bad attitude and is therefore rejected by most teams.
I don't think anyone in the TOP Elo actually lack the skill to compete in a tournament level team.
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United States47024 Posts
There are also people who are successful in solo queue, are on competitive teams, but whose attitudes have had a clearly negative effect on the performance and state of mind of those teams.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On August 14 2012 07:47 EquilasH wrote:
c) Have a bad attitude and is therefore rejected by most teams.
I don't think anyone in the TOP Elo don't have the skill to compete in a tournament level team.
Why is bad attitude divorced from skill? In a 5v5 game, having a team that plays well with each other is paramount. It completely overrides the importance of individual mechanical skill, because past a certain point, every one can compete with "the best" in terms of mechanics with a few rare exceptions.
Again going back to the example of Chinese DotA, the best established proscene for this type of game - you have entire coaching staffs and managers scouting out players not just by looking for talented pub players, they do it by looking for players who work well with each other and can play as a TEAM. The importance of team play is basically one of the most stressed aspects.
If anything, this prove that solo queue elo is not indicative of competitive skill. TheRainMan was one of the top solo q players back in s1, was on TSM, and in the end, TSM decided to cut him because despite his awesome solo queue powers, he was useless in a competitive setting.
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On August 14 2012 07:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:47 EquilasH wrote:
c) Have a bad attitude and is therefore rejected by most teams.
I don't think anyone in the TOP Elo don't have the skill to compete in a tournament level team.
Why is bad attitude divorced from skill? In a 5v5 game, having a team that plays well with each other is paramount. It completely overrides the importance of individual mechanical skill, because past a certain point, every one can compete with "the best" in terms of mechanics with a few rare exceptions. Again going back to the example of Chinese DotA, the best established proscene for this type of game - you have entire coaching staffs and managers scouting out players not just by looking for talented pub players, they do it by looking for players who work well with each other and can play as a TEAM. The importance of team play is basically one of the most stressed aspects. If anything, this prove that solo queue elo is not indicative of competitive skill. TheRainMan was one of the top solo q players back in s1, was on TSM, and in the end, TSM decided to cut him because despite his awesome solo queue powers, he was useless in a competitive setting.
That's not what happened with TheRainMan at all. People hate on rainman but he got rank 1 playing only Teemo, got picked up by a top team and played well. He held his own in top lane. He is NOT a bad player. Next you'll tell me Voyboy is bad because he has been feeding a lot in recent MLG games. Rainman was kicked because he didn't believe in practicing the same way TSM wanted to. You can make assumptions that he was kicked because he was bad or something but that's not what TSM told the community.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On August 14 2012 07:53 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 14 2012 07:47 EquilasH wrote:
c) Have a bad attitude and is therefore rejected by most teams.
I don't think anyone in the TOP Elo don't have the skill to compete in a tournament level team.
Why is bad attitude divorced from skill? In a 5v5 game, having a team that plays well with each other is paramount. It completely overrides the importance of individual mechanical skill, because past a certain point, every one can compete with "the best" in terms of mechanics with a few rare exceptions. Again going back to the example of Chinese DotA, the best established proscene for this type of game - you have entire coaching staffs and managers scouting out players not just by looking for talented pub players, they do it by looking for players who work well with each other and can play as a TEAM. The importance of team play is basically one of the most stressed aspects. If anything, this prove that solo queue elo is not indicative of competitive skill. TheRainMan was one of the top solo q players back in s1, was on TSM, and in the end, TSM decided to cut him because despite his awesome solo queue powers, he was useless in a competitive setting. That's not what happened with TheRainMan at all. People hate on rainman but he got rank 1 playing only Teemo, got picked up by a top team and played well. He held his own in top lane. He is NOT a bad player. Next you'll tell me Voyboy is bad because he has been feeding a lot in recent MLG games.
? I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying he had a poor attitude and TSM decided they'd be better without him, and that's what happened.
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I can tell you that elementz is bad
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On August 14 2012 07:55 101toss wrote:
I can tell you that elementz is bad
And he's only 2100 Elo. Coincidence?
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Hazmat, not sure what happened to you but when you were in your 1800 ELO slump, I respected you and rooted for you to regain your old max and get better as a a player. You were humble. You were helpful. Now that you're 2300 and "high ELO" I'm sorry, but now you've become an ignorant elitist prick. You take ELO way too seriously which is painfully obvious in your posts which always has something to do with it.
Although not everyone's opinion can be correct, doesn't mean you have to shut down everyone's discussion just because you"re the better player according to the soloQ ladder. You're still young(17 I believe?) so I know you have time to mature but please try to keep yourself as modest as possible, because people like me get annoyed as fuck at people like you.
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On August 14 2012 07:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:53 HazMat wrote:On August 14 2012 07:49 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 14 2012 07:47 EquilasH wrote:
c) Have a bad attitude and is therefore rejected by most teams.
I don't think anyone in the TOP Elo don't have the skill to compete in a tournament level team.
Why is bad attitude divorced from skill? In a 5v5 game, having a team that plays well with each other is paramount. It completely overrides the importance of individual mechanical skill, because past a certain point, every one can compete with "the best" in terms of mechanics with a few rare exceptions. Again going back to the example of Chinese DotA, the best established proscene for this type of game - you have entire coaching staffs and managers scouting out players not just by looking for talented pub players, they do it by looking for players who work well with each other and can play as a TEAM. The importance of team play is basically one of the most stressed aspects. If anything, this prove that solo queue elo is not indicative of competitive skill. TheRainMan was one of the top solo q players back in s1, was on TSM, and in the end, TSM decided to cut him because despite his awesome solo queue powers, he was useless in a competitive setting. That's not what happened with TheRainMan at all. People hate on rainman but he got rank 1 playing only Teemo, got picked up by a top team and played well. He held his own in top lane. He is NOT a bad player. Next you'll tell me Voyboy is bad because he has been feeding a lot in recent MLG games. ? I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying he had a poor attitude and TSM decided they'd be better without him, and that's what happened.
Ah sorry I didn't see you were arguing about the fact that he had a bad attitude. My fault.
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On August 14 2012 07:56 MooMooMugi wrote:
Hazmat, not sure what happened to you but when you were in your 1800 ELO slump, I respected you and rooted for you to regain your old max and get better as a a player. You were humble. You were helpful. Now that you're 2300 and "high ELO" I'm sorry, but now you've become an ignorant elitist prick. You take ELO way too seriously which is painfully obvious in your posts which always has something to do with it.
Although not everyone's opinion can be correct, doesn't mean you have to shut down everyone's discussion just because you"re the better player according to the soloQ ladder. You're still young(17 I believe?) so I know you have time to mature but please try to keep yourself as modest as possible, because people like me get annoyed as fuck at people like you.
It's k
He's plat so obviously he knows what he's talking about
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On August 14 2012 07:56 MooMooMugi wrote:
Hazmat, not sure what happened to you but when you were in your 1800 ELO slump, I respected you and rooted for you to regain your old max and get better as a a player. You were humble. You were helpful. Now that you're 2300 and "high ELO" I'm sorry, but now you've become an ignorant elitist prick. You take ELO way too seriously which is painfully obvious in your posts which always has something to do with it.
Although not everyone's opinion can be correct, doesn't mean you have to shut down everyone's discussion just because you"re the better player according to the soloQ ladder. You're still young(17 I believe?) so I know you have time to mature but please try to keep yourself as modest as possible, because people like me get annoyed as fuck at people like you.
I'm no where near good enough to be on a team. I think this is because I'm not high Elo enough. Maybe I take Elo too seriously but the players that I actually consider good and I see perform well time after time are in the 2400 Elo bracket. That's why I'm arguing that solo queue is really important. I understand that's it's differnet in dota but this game is still pretty young and whoever is the better individual player will come out ahead. I'd love to see a team that's strong because of just having good teamwork but there isn't such a team yet.
edit: I was never humble or helpful. You're just trying to make me sound like an asshole, lol.
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On August 14 2012 07:58 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:56 MooMooMugi wrote:
Hazmat, not sure what happened to you but when you were in your 1800 ELO slump, I respected you and rooted for you to regain your old max and get better as a a player. You were humble. You were helpful. Now that you're 2300 and "high ELO" I'm sorry, but now you've become an ignorant elitist prick. You take ELO way too seriously which is painfully obvious in your posts which always has something to do with it.
Although not everyone's opinion can be correct, doesn't mean you have to shut down everyone's discussion just because you"re the better player according to the soloQ ladder. You're still young(17 I believe?) so I know you have time to mature but please try to keep yourself as modest as possible, because people like me get annoyed as fuck at people like you. It's k He's plat so obviously he knows what he's talking about
Nowhere did I mention my Elo or say something about myself. You're just attacking me to attack me.
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On August 14 2012 08:01 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 07:56 MooMooMugi wrote:
Hazmat, not sure what happened to you but when you were in your 1800 ELO slump, I respected you and rooted for you to regain your old max and get better as a a player. You were humble. You were helpful. Now that you're 2300 and "high ELO" I'm sorry, but now you've become an ignorant elitist prick. You take ELO way too seriously which is painfully obvious in your posts which always has something to do with it.
Although not everyone's opinion can be correct, doesn't mean you have to shut down everyone's discussion just because you"re the better player according to the soloQ ladder. You're still young(17 I believe?) so I know you have time to mature but please try to keep yourself as modest as possible, because people like me get annoyed as fuck at people like you. I'm no where near good enough to be on a team. I think this is because I'm not high Elo enough. Maybe I take Elo too seriously but the players that I actually consider good and I see perform well time after time are in the 2400 Elo bracket. That's why I'm arguing that solo queue is really important. I understand that's it's differnet in dota but this game is still pretty young and whoever is the better individual player will come out ahead. I'd love to see a team that's strong because of just having good teamwork but there isn't such a team yet. edit: I was never humble or helpful. You're just trying to make me sound like an asshole, lol.
Soloqueue is important and does make you a better player. Your teamplay can be the best in the world but if you have like a weaker mid and top for example your jungle will get fucked aswell.
Arranged 5s is way better to practice teamplay and the like. While soloqueue is important, you can't really compare high lvl soloqueue games to the high level tourney games.
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your wrong im 500 elo and could obv play on a pro team and beat my lane opponents ezpz god.
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i think there are a lot of split-second decisions in game that you can't do unless you have voicechat, and there are some decisions where you simply need to recognize your team's tendencies and react accordingly which you can't do it in solo q.
when i play blind normals 3v3 with some friends, we can easily tell when the other team is communicating well based on how they move and micro.
with that said, solo q is not completely irrelevant either, generally high elo players play better than low elo players. no need to think in extremes and say it's everything or nothing.
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TGF is a good example. They were a team that were from the same lan center and knew each other IRL but they just weren't good enough individually and couldn't win anything so they split up.
And since you guys love talking about me, I just want to point out that the only time I brought up my Elo was when I was complaining about azingy duoing with an unranked and wasting everyone's time. Sorry? He still does that shit by the way.
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EPT
