On August 14 2012 05:04 Slayer91 wrote: I think the difference between arranged play and solo queue is massively overblown. The skill level is higher and the tilt factor usually isn't there in arranged but you often see people feed heavily and other people carry and champs that are good early game dominate and snowball and such like. People carry very often with champs they're good at and it's just that those champs start to become mainstream. (think double lift ezrael) But in solo queue you'd put it down to "solo queue retards".
Its a difference in mindset. In solo queue, you're still heavily focused on the individual aspects of the game. Ultimately, to win in solo queue you have to play with a certain degree of selfishness, and the level to which you can coordinate with random people you've never met before is very limited. Whereas in arranged play the ideal is essentially "5 players playing with a single mind".
Of course, it isn't quite there in practice because a lot of "pro" teams still play the game like 5 pubs. But some of the top teams like Azubu Blaze are getting there.
It's game changing in like, 5% of situations. The rest of the time it's nice and can land a kill if you're lucky/outplay them. If it had a larger radius, I'd be more impressed, but I can't tell you the number of times something has just missed the edge despite being in spitting distance.
On August 14 2012 05:04 Slayer91 wrote: I think the difference between arranged play and solo queue is massively overblown. The skill level is higher and the tilt factor usually isn't there in arranged but you often see people feed heavily and other people carry and champs that are good early game dominate and snowball and such like. People carry very often with champs they're good at and it's just that those champs start to become mainstream. (think double lift ezrael) But in solo queue you'd put it down to "solo queue retards".
Its a difference in mindset. In solo queue, you're still heavily focused on the individual aspects of the game. Ultimately, to win in solo queue you have to play with a certain degree of selfishness, and the level to which you can coordinate with random people you've never met before is very limited. Whereas in arranged play the ideal is essentially "5 players playing with a single mind".
Of course, it isn't quite there in practice because a lot of "pro" teams still play the game like 5 pubs. But some of the top teams like Azubu Blaze are getting there.
M5 also is sort of "there" too. I think most teams still just pick five really good champions but I see teams like M5 and Azubu Blaze picking an entire team that synergizes well together.
On August 14 2012 05:17 Feartheguru wrote: Do people really agree that moonfall is a game changing teamfight skill like theyango says? Since the beginning I've thought it's just an average skill and none of the Dianas I've seen has changed that.
It's probably less game-changing in solo queue, but my last jungle Diana game was won largely due to three consecutive teamfights involving a well placed Moonfall. The first fight Nocturne initiated on us but got destroyed because I pulled his entire team away from him and then flashed to safely, making it 5v4. The second I pulled half the enemy team into the center of a Leona ult. The third I just ulted into the enemy team, pulled them all on top of me, ate their damage, and then escaped.
I think TheYango is emphasizing the game-changing nature of Moonfall because it was being completely ignored, which was somewhat surprising given how displacements are generally considered the strongest form of crowd control.
On August 14 2012 05:26 AwayFromLife wrote: It's game changing in like, 5% of situations. The rest of the time it's nice and can land a kill if you're lucky/outplay them. If it had a larger radius, I'd be more impressed, but I can't tell you the number of times something has just missed the edge despite being in spitting distance.
Its AoE is totally in line with how other DotA-ported skills came out in LoL, because balance demands the reduction in power level. Which is totally fine, as the base skill is one of the strongest teamfight skills in DotA.
It's not like we need Anivia wall to span the entire screen.
On August 14 2012 05:17 Feartheguru wrote: Do people really agree that moonfall is a game changing teamfight skill like theyango says? Since the beginning I've thought it's just an average skill and none of the Dianas I've seen has changed that.
It's probably less game-changing in solo queue, but my last jungle Diana game was won largely due to three consecutive teamfights involving a well placed Moonfall. The first fight Nocturne initiated on us but got destroyed because I pulled his entire team away from him and then flashed to safely, making it 5v4. The second I pulled half the enemy team into the center of a Leona ult. The third I just ulted into the enemy team, pulled them all on top of me, ate their damage, and then escaped.
I think TheYango is emphasizing the game-changing nature of Moonfall because it was being completely ignored, which was somewhat surprising given how displacements are generally considered the strongest form of crowd control.
There's also the fact that arranged play magnifies the strength due to the certain amount of coordination required to maximize the skill's effectiveness.
Diana's E doesn't really do a ton in and of itself. The power in it is almost entirely driven by what skills are used with it, which means that it requires a certain amount of coordination in using those skills, as well as a draft that makes use of the fact that you have this kind of a setup skill.
If you're using it just like a stock AoE CC it's going to feel mediocre, but Amumu/Malph ults can't do things like clump people up for a follow-up Jarvan ult or pull people who've flashed out of a Nunu ult back in before it finishes.
On August 14 2012 05:26 AwayFromLife wrote: It's game changing in like, 5% of situations. The rest of the time it's nice and can land a kill if you're lucky/outplay them. If it had a larger radius, I'd be more impressed, but I can't tell you the number of times something has just missed the edge despite being in spitting distance.
Its AoE is totally in line with how other DotA-ported skills came out in LoL, because balance demands the reduction in power level. Which is totally fine, as the base skill is one of the strongest teamfight skills in DotA.
It's not like we need Anivia wall to span the entire screen.
Although aniivia having a global stun was pretty cool though
On August 14 2012 05:04 Slayer91 wrote: I think the difference between arranged play and solo queue is massively overblown. The skill level is higher and the tilt factor usually isn't there in arranged but you often see people feed heavily and other people carry and champs that are good early game dominate and snowball and such like. People carry very often with champs they're good at and it's just that those champs start to become mainstream. (think double lift ezrael) But in solo queue you'd put it down to "solo queue retards".
Its a difference in mindset. In solo queue, you're still heavily focused on the individual aspects of the game. Ultimately, to win in solo queue you have to play with a certain degree of selfishness, and the level to which you can coordinate with random people you've never met before is very limited. Whereas in arranged play the ideal is essentially "5 players playing with a single mind".
Of course, it isn't quite there in practice because a lot of "pro" teams still play the game like 5 pubs. But some of the top teams like Azubu Blaze are getting there.
You don't need to be selfish to win solo queue at all. Just because people go into the mindset that "they have to carry retards" in solo queue doesn't mean that's the optimal way to play. When people do badly you have to make up for that but that applies everywhere (CLG NA lololol) . You can easily play supports and tanks and do your best to help your team and ping objectives and if nobodies on tilt it's definitely possible to get to the level of coordination as the less organized teams. (not to say you have to coordinate your team to carry as support and tank)
I would say the biggest difference aside from skill level is mostly teamcomp oriented and also call/objective oriented play. Also the consistency of that type of play. The aspect of playing solo queue to have fun and improve can often lead to not trying to exploit every advantage and pushing towers//grabbing dragons to exploit small advantages which leads to more teamfights and more good practice in a longer game. (at least I kinda do that) However this is more of a switch that can be flicked on in competitive play and I don't think anyone should use it as an excuse not to play solo queue.
As for 5 people playing with a single mind, the fact is 5 different champions all have 5 different roles to play and therefore it's important that each player plays his role the best he can to win each teamfight and react individually to the situation at hand and that's exactly the same as in solo queue. In arranged it's better to come to a correct decision about how to play because you know roughly how your teammates are going to react but if anything strange or offbeat happens at all your solo queue experience is going to help you a lot there.
On August 14 2012 04:53 AwayFromLife wrote: Are arranged 5s not in the game anymore? I was under the impression that it was.
And you can play to win in solo queue. When I go play basketball, I don't try to punt the ball into the hoop yelling "lolol it's not the NBA you guiz!"
Just because you occasionally get trolls and idiots doesn't mean you have to treat every game like it's full of tards. You can tell whether or not a game is going to be shit in champ select and know whether you should actually be attempting to win or not.
Yes, but playing 3v3 pickup basketball is a completely different game from 5v5 arranged play.
On August 14 2012 06:17 MooMooMugi wrote: Comparing soloQ to true arranged 5s is just laughable
Thanks for your contribution sir!
He has a point tho, focussing someone like akali in a teamfight is much easier in arranged 5s. On the other hand, preventing akali focus is also easier in arranged 5s. You can position for teamfights much better etc. The akali is just an example of many things. A team like Lgn though still plays like a soloqueue team half the time, M5 for example plays much much better as a team.
On August 14 2012 04:53 AwayFromLife wrote: Are arranged 5s not in the game anymore? I was under the impression that it was.
And you can play to win in solo queue. When I go play basketball, I don't try to punt the ball into the hoop yelling "lolol it's not the NBA you guiz!"
Just because you occasionally get trolls and idiots doesn't mean you have to treat every game like it's full of tards. You can tell whether or not a game is going to be shit in champ select and know whether you should actually be attempting to win or not.
Yes, but playing 3v3 pickup basketball is a completely different game from 5v5 arranged play.
That's true, but I stand by my comparison. I'd not go out in sandals or jeans, I actually take shots in good form, I pass and set up plays as best I can. Just because I don't have a contract doesn't mean I stop trying or play like an asshole.
Same goes for solo queue. If I'm playing top, I'm not picking, say, Heimer or something like that, because I know that if I want to win, I should play someone that actually has a fucking chance of doing so. Less of an extreme, I also wouldn't play Garen when Riven, Xin, or Darius are available, because they pretty much all outclass him in some way.
I've had games where the entire team was derping and some katarina guy told us all we had to kite in our comp vs theres and suddenly we just won every teamfight because we just didn't think about how we went about it. It all depends on your experience in solo queue and the skill level you're at.
i'm pretty sure the arranged 5's vs solo queue "discussion" is going to go nowhere
i think that we can all agree that there are some differences, and just that the magnitude of the differences are less/more depending on who you ask. I'd say about 80% of this discussion is about personal experiences.
On August 14 2012 06:41 HazMat wrote: ITT: People sad about their Elo so they act like arranged 5s is some super serious game mode and solo queue is a joke.
As obnoxious as this sounds... well it's hard to disagree. There isn't that much difference between solo queue and arranged 5s once you reach the elo where there is no longer "the one", just a little less coordination.
Diana E is actually silly powerful (sorry if we're past this convo), but very limited. I used one to keep 2 people in a Nunu ult and get him the double kill, and then another time to secure a Zyra knock up. However, by itself, it's very mediocre. If I'm in a fight and I don't need to use it to set up something, I just hit it to make sure my W spheres all hit. It's similar to Naut E in that the slow is always useful, but a slow is just good, not game changing. The pull is only sometimes game changing, the slow is ok.
Maybe if it had a larger radius, or lowered the CD if it hit more targets, I'd be more impressed, but as of now it's just nice, not great.
On August 14 2012 04:53 AwayFromLife wrote: Are arranged 5s not in the game anymore? I was under the impression that it was.
And you can play to win in solo queue. When I go play basketball, I don't try to punt the ball into the hoop yelling "lolol it's not the NBA you guiz!"
Just because you occasionally get trolls and idiots doesn't mean you have to treat every game like it's full of tards. You can tell whether or not a game is going to be shit in champ select and know whether you should actually be attempting to win or not.
Yes, but playing 3v3 pickup basketball is a completely different game from 5v5 arranged play.
That's true, but I stand by my comparison. I'd not go out in sandals or jeans, I actually take shots in good form, I pass and set up plays as best I can. Just because I don't have a contract doesn't mean I stop trying or play like an asshole.
Same goes for solo queue. If I'm playing top, I'm not picking, say, Heimer or something like that, because I know that if I want to win, I should play someone that actually has a fucking chance of doing so. Less of an extreme, I also wouldn't play Garen when Riven, Xin, or Darius are available, because they pretty much all outclass him in some way.
It's not about wanting to win, it's about team experience. Five random people who are serious about winning but who have never played together before are not the same as five people who have practiced together, developed strategies, and learned each other's quirks.
This goes way beyond simple champion picks, pings, and not trolling. We're not assuming that solo queue is inferior because you'll always have some idiot on your team who thinks Jungle Xerath is viable.
EPT
