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[Patch 1.0.0.144: Diana] General Discussion - Page 164
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Noobville17922 Posts
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AwayFromLife
United States441 Posts
On August 14 2012 02:24 Seuss wrote: Or Akali. I think Diana is more Nocturne-like than Shaco-like, she doesn't need to take kills to be useful. While she's certainly a heck of a lot stronger if she does get fed, ultimately she can get in a carry's face and distract/zone/kill them without needing to sap farm/kills from other champions. She suffers the same issues as Nocturne (e.g. can become fairly useless if behind or if an enemy gets fed), but to a lesser extent since she can still disrupt entire teams. I'd be loathe to compare her to Nocturne. Both to well when fed, both do well with damage items. However, it's the "not fed and forced to build tanky support items" where Diana falls short and Nocturne stays fine. His kit, even without a lot of damage, is still scary no matter what he has, because he always has the threat of flying out of the jungle with his ult, fearing you, and scoring a kill. And he can do it from a stupid range, so he barely has to slow down his farm to do so. Diana doesn't have scary ganks or initiation/diving prowess that other junglers possess in their kits. Yeah, she can dive with her ult, but for what? If she doesn't have damage items she's not doing anything other than maybe forcing the carry back until their team locks Diana down and kills her. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:08 AwayFromLife wrote: I'd be loathe to compare her to Nocturne. Both to well when fed, both do well with damage items. However, it's the "not fed and forced to build tanky support items" where Diana falls short and Nocturne stays fine. His kit, even without a lot of damage, is still scary no matter what he has, because he always has the threat of flying out of the jungle with his ult, fearing you, and scoring a kill. And he can do it from a stupid range, so he barely has to slow down his farm to do so. Diana doesn't have scary ganks or initiation/diving prowess that other junglers possess in their kits. Yeah, she can dive with her ult, but for what? If she doesn't have damage items she's not doing anything other than maybe forcing the carry back until their team locks Diana down and kills her. Are you deliberately choosing to ignore the fact that she has one of the best AoE setup/followup skills in the game? | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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AwayFromLife
United States441 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:11 TheYango wrote: Are you deliberately choosing to ignore the fact that she has one of the best AoE setup/followup skills in the game? Moonfall is fine theoretically. You land it on a full team, great, you may have just won a teamfight. But don't kid yourself into thinking it's one of the best things in the game. The range is middling, and it's a huge telegraph: as soon as Diana appears, scatter or stun. There's not really much more to say. Even if you're running a big AoE comp and can use Moonfall to it's full advantage, you still can't really justify her over many other junglers. Amumu does it better, Malph does it better, Naut does it probably just as well (ult knock up and slow) but also does fine with supporty tank items. Shen taunt can set up AoEs, Mao's Knockup can do it in a pinch, Ali or Jarvan as well, hell, Jax has better innate tankiness and an AoE stun while maintaining better build paths in the jungle. Moonfall's good, but it's not the end-all-be-all reason to bring her, by a long shot. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
The 90 elo left to 3000 are gonna be long to get. ^^ | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:20 AwayFromLife wrote: Moonfall is fine theoretically. You land it on a full team, great, you may have just won a teamfight. But don't kid yourself into thinking it's one of the best things in the game. The range is middling, and it's a huge telegraph: as soon as Diana appears, scatter or stun. There's not really much more to say. This applies to anyone with PBAoE CC, except most of them don't have near-instant 800-range gap closers. On August 14 2012 03:20 AwayFromLife wrote: Even if you're running a big AoE comp and can use Moonfall to it's full advantage, you still can't really justify her over many other junglers. Amumu does it better, Malph does it better, Naut does it probably just as well (ult knock up and slow) but also does fine with supporty tank items. Shen taunt can set up AoEs, Mao's Knockup can do it in a pinch, Ali or Jarvan as well, hell, Jax has better innate tankiness and an AoE stun while maintaining better build paths in the jungle. I would hesitate to say that Amumu and Malph do it better. Their skills bring longer hard CC to the table, but are also on far longer CDs, and don't enable other skills the same way Moonfall does. Moonfall effectively extends the radius of other smaller AoE skills to be the size of Moonfall (as Moonfall moves targets within the effective AoE into a smaller area for the follow-up spells). This is enormously relevant as a lot of the most powerful AoE spells in the game have AoEs significantly smaller than 400 AoE. Enabling spells with diameters of 200-300 to hit targets that were otherwise spread in an area of diameter 400 is VERY powerful. On August 14 2012 03:20 AwayFromLife wrote: Moonfall's good, but it's not the end-all-be-all reason to bring her, by a long shot. It's the singular, unique, defining aspect of her kit. Everything else is generic AoE damage. | ||
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AwayFromLife
United States441 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:23 xes wrote: She can also dive onto a carry better and has comparable base stats and damage to Udyr. Well that kind of goes without saying, yaknow? Udyr is basically trash once the game passes the mid-game, he probably has one of the worst team fight presences in the game. On August 14 2012 03:33 TheYango wrote: This applies to anyone with PBAoE CC, except most of them don't have near-instant 800-range gap closers. I would hesitate to say that Amumu and Malph do it better. Their skills bring longer hard CC to the table, but are also on far longer CDs, and don't enable other skills the same way Moonfall does. Moonfall effectively extends the radius of other smaller AoE skills to be the size of Moonfall (as Moonfall moves targets within the effective AoE into a smaller area for the follow-up spells). This is enormously relevant as a lot of the most powerful AoE spells in the game have AoEs significantly smaller than 400 AoE. Enabling spells with diameters of 200-300 to hit targets that were otherwise spread in an area of diameter 400 is VERY powerful. It's the singular, unique, defining aspect of her kit. Everything else is generic AoE damage. Cooldown is basically a non-thing with Moonfall, though. You use it once, and the fight generally doesn't last longer than the 18 second CD. And if it does, the enemy generally isn't lined up for another use. You can argue that it's better if you're literally getting into a teamfight every 45 seconds or something (so other ults aren't up), but how often does that actually happen? While it's a strong ability, I would never bring Diana to a game under the assumption that a single use of R->E is better than *name other jungler here*. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:34 AwayFromLife wrote: Well that kind of goes without saying, yaknow? Udyr is basically trash once the game passes the mid-game, he probably has one of the worst team fight presences in the game. Udyr's weakness is having no gap closer. If you can manage to actually get on their carry, you will be able to zone and kill them. I've never played an even game with Diana because like Udyr her midgame presence is huge (also, PBE lol), but I'd like to think her insane gap closer keeps her relevant the entire game. | ||
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AwayFromLife
United States441 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:41 xes wrote: Udyr's weakness is having no gap closer. If you can manage to actually get on their carry, you will be able to zone and kill them. I've never played an even game with Diana because like Udyr her midgame presence is huge (also, PBE lol), but I'd like to think her insane gap closer keeps her relevant the entire game. Lots of people have gap closers. Akali, Fizz, Wukong, Poppy, and Talon all have gap closers, when was the last time any of them were used in a tournament? That doesn't make one relevant, and her sticking power is balls compared to many other champs. Edit: While Olaf, Rumble, Shy, Darius, and Yorick have no gap closers and see competitive play, so there's that. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:44 AwayFromLife wrote: Lots of people have gap closers. Akali, Fizz, Wukong, Poppy, and Talon all have gap closers, when was the last time any of them were used in a tournament? That doesn't make one relevant, and her sticking power is balls compared to many other champs. Edit: While Olaf, Rumble, Shy, Darius, and Yorick have no gap closers and see competitive play, so there's that. I guess I needed to specify that Udyr's kit requires him to have a gap closer because his only CC comes from running up to someone's face. This means that without flash, in a teamfight he can really only peel for his team and if it happens that his back line is weaker then he is pretty trash. Olaf can ult his way onto a carry, Rumble has vector ult, Shyv can dive in with her ult, Yorick's job is to give his team two AD carries, and Darius has a pull and a ranged (small range but still ranged) true damage nuke. Edit: Plus Darius barely sees competitive play. Furthermore, the argument is about Diana mid vs Diana jungle, and Diana mid see no competitive play either. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 14 2012 03:33 TheYango wrote: This applies to anyone with PBAoE CC, except most of them don't have near-instant 800-range gap closers. Correction: 900. Her ultimate actually has longer range than Akali's by 100, and is only 100 shorter than Malphite's. On August 14 2012 03:34 AwayFromLife wrote: Well that kind of goes without saying, yaknow? Udyr is basically trash once the game passes the mid-game, he probably has one of the worst team fight presences in the game. Cooldown is basically a non-thing with Moonfall, though. You use it once, and the fight generally doesn't last longer than the 18 second CD. And if it does, the enemy generally isn't lined up for another use. You can argue that it's better if you're literally getting into a teamfight every 45 seconds or something (so other ults aren't up), but how often does that actually happen? While it's a strong ability, I would never bring Diana to a game under the assumption that a single use of R->E is better than *name other jungler here*. The cooldown is entirely relevant. Teams often make plays based on the fact that Amumu/Malph/(insert champion here) ult is on CD for the next minute or so. They'll force Baron/Dragon fights or objectives while they know they have an advantage. Teamfights also last much longer than 18 seconds, and any Diana worth her salt will have CDR. She's going to get at least two off every fight unless it's an extremely one sided engagement. On August 14 2012 03:44 AwayFromLife wrote: Lots of people have gap closers. Akali, Fizz, Wukong, Poppy, and Talon all have gap closers, when was the last time any of them were used in a tournament? That doesn't make one relevant, and her sticking power is balls compared to many other champs. Edit: While Olaf, Rumble, Shy, Darius, and Yorick have no gap closers and see competitive play, so there's that. That's akin to saying, "Lots of people have AP ratios. Heimer, Eve, Brand, and Malzahar all have AP ratios, when was the last time any of them were used in a tournament?" It's a silly argument that ignores factors such as poor laning phases, easy counter-picks, and other game circumstances in order to blame everything on a random attribute of the champion in question. The first list of champions all have such issues, and the second list of champions either have gap closers (Shyvana) or don't need them for other reasons (e.g. you can't kite Olaf because of his ultimate, Yorick is plenty happy just ulting and defending his AD carry, Rumble has ranged slows and zone control etc.). | ||
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AwayFromLife
United States441 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
Since her base damage is comparable to Udyr, it means she can do damage all game. However, a lot of her damage comes from proximity to the target over a period of time (W and passive) similar to the activation + passive of Phoenix Udyr. But since she has a gap closer, it means her damage is relevant when their AD carries have the potential to kill you in 2 seconds they kite you which is Udyr's problem. So she does damage even without items plus provides tons of teamfight utility. No reason she is any less viable as a jungler. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 14 2012 04:04 AwayFromLife wrote: Right, it's comparing apples to oranges. You said "because she has a gap closer she'll remain relevant", which I disputed as a silly claim. And she's seen 0 competitive play either jungle or mid aside from maybe some casted scrims, any tournament worth anything wouldn't let a newly released champ be played the week they come out. Except that's not what xes was arguing. His point was that the only thing preventing Udyr from being a competitive pick isn't his damage or utility, but his lack of a gap closer. Diana has Udyr-level damage and utility, but has a gap closer. Therefore, Diana is a potential competitive pick. It's also pretty silly to argue about Diana not being seen in competitive play when 1) AFAIK she isn't even on the tournament realm yet and 2) only the most OP champions tend to be picked competitively right out of the gate. | ||
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AwayFromLife
United States441 Posts
On August 14 2012 04:07 xes wrote: I made the comparison to Udyr because you seem to be under the impression that Diana without lane farm is a worse version of Amumu/Malphite. She is. Underfarmed/unfed Diana has 1 task: ult in, hit E to line up AoE, and try to do damage to the carry. Malph does the first 2 parts in his ult and has better sticking power + a debuff. Amumu does the same thing as Diana (though QR instead of RE), and then takes less damage from the AD carry and is fine building pure tank. Udyr is more or less trash outside of farming/mid game fights compared to all of them. | ||
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qtiehunter
1088 Posts
On August 14 2012 01:32 Arevall wrote: What could be suitable junglers for low level summoners? <lvl10 Edit: More than warwick I guess := Hi So I started playing LoL again after half a year without touching it and I've been playing almost only jungle since level 1, because I can't stand laning with someone else -I'm very proactive and at low level everyone is either too aggresive (resulting in feeding) either too passive (resulting in falling behind because enemy gets to freefarm and roam 24/7)- and the only solo lane, (ap) mid, is my worst role. In addition, jungling without the threat of counterjungling is really relaxing, and when enemy team has a jungler, they always suck and you can pretty much farm their jungle. The drawback is, as you probably know, that your teammates don't know how to follow up ganks (or wait for you to do all the job to blatantly ks you with their highest damage spell), they push lanes all the times, your clear times are slower because you lack damage/sustain from runes and masteries, and you're pretty much forced to play utility junglers because everyone plays only carry champions so if you play a carry jungler you won't be more farmed/leveled than anyone else and you will be as useless as everyone else. Back to topic, my conclusion is that every conventional jungler works for low level summoners. Basically, all unconventional junglers such as Kayle, Riven, Darius, Fiddle (I think? I guess you can do ok with him if left alone but then all your lanes will start feeding), Jax, Olaf(?), Heimerdinger... have a hard time, as in your clear is not so fast and you constantly need to chug down potions. So what works is the typical high sustain and/or aoe damage jungle champion. Mundo, Malphite, Alistar, Nunu, Trundle, Shyvana, Skarner, Udyr, Shen... work pretty well. From what I've read, many people have the belief that cloth+5pots is compulsory in low level, but my experiences don't say so. Cloth+5pot is only good if you plan on farm your whole jungle off one sweep. I feel it's much better to get boots+3pot, get a leash on blue then try to lvl2 gank the closest lane (top/bot). If the enemies are pushed and/or damaged and your lane teammate isn't completely braindead it's pretty easy to get FB. Then go clear wolves, wraiths, golems and B then head staight to red. Never start red IMO. Red is too strong and will kill you at level 1. Your teammates probably won't leash because it's too far away from lanes and even if they do, it will be an awful leash and you'll still die. If your teammates don't leash blue, well, you can clear it with 3 pots then B with most of the aforementioned champions. If they don't leash they're probably asshats and you will lose anyways. I practically always get a leash even at lvl 1 summoner games (too many smurfs/people watching pro tournaments I guess), but most of these leashes are bad, so be prepared. As for masteries, I always start the +2 damage and +2 armor against minions and smite summoner. tl;dr: Get a tanky champ like Mundo, Maokai, Malphite, start blue with a leash, lvl 2 gank top, get fb, babysit your top who will qq all game long, pray for your other lanes not to feed (try to gank them if enemies have overextended), do all the warding/tanking/cc during the rest of the game, win game. Disclaimer: I'm speaking from a noob perspective ^.^ | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 14 2012 04:13 AwayFromLife wrote: She is. Underfarmed/unfed Diana has 1 task: ult in, hit E to line up AoE, and try to do damage to the carry. Malph does the first 2 parts in his ult and has better sticking power + a debuff. Amumu does the same thing as Diana (though QR instead of RE), and then takes less damage from the AD carry and is fine building pure tank. Udyr is more or less trash outside of farming/mid game fights compared to all of them. Diana is fine building pure tank. As I pointed out much earlier in the thread her base damage is comparable to Amumu even after factoring in his passive in an ideal scenario. Amumu may take less damage, but Diana has a shield so it all evens out. Her sticking power is arguably far above that of Malphite as he can be kited through his Q, whereas Diana has a gap closer on a 3.6-12 second cooldown. Diana does not have Malphite's incredible AS slow, and in that respect she is inferior, but if you're looking for a champion with both strong initiate and an AS debuff you won't find many outside of everyone's favorite (and permabanned) rock. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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