i've seen Chaox (on Ashe mainly) do this a lot lately but once he's got 2xDBlade + Zerks + Vamp, he usually goes Zeal. that makes no sense to me. wouldn't it be better to get the Pick Axe? what's the purpose of getting Zeal early? does it provide more DPS than Pick Axe in the short run?
Ashe has no innate escapes so increased MS is nice.
Plus being able to kite and chase is also an added bonus.
But yeah, on Ashe, it's one of the champs I would actually prefer to have an IE on first.
IE on Ashe synergizes well with her passive. It's cumbersome if you don't have good lane control; something I'm still working on, but was really terrible with before. With some practice you can really harass someone well once you get an IE.
I mean, you almost guarantee an IE proc, and a W immediately after almost guarantees they can't retaliate for some major free damage. Even if they do hit you, an IE proc + W for one AA is a good trade off.
Problem is, once you have IE on Ashe, laning phase is most likely over or nearing the end; and a lot of other things would have already more than likely had a deciding factor in the game's outcome.
At that point, I usually wish I had a Zeal + BT for better sustain and manuverability.
So I'm an unconventional bot lane player. I play both AD and support. By unconventional, i do not mean Zilean AD carry or other pub stomping troll builds, but rather, I mean that the typical AD carry builds for late game domination, while allowing the support to babysit. I prefer to dominate the lane early by using flat health runes (and sometimes masteries) and armor pen runes to ensure that I scale into late game.
This is extremely effective on heroes such as MF who like to trade constantly, as you will be 100 hp flat larger than the enemy. This makes it difficult for jungle to gank you, as their AD carry who you have been trading with will be hesitent to engage when they are low enough to be burst down. Trist is another example where flat HP + armor pen can be obscenely difficult to play against.
This has an added benefit that ganks on you are more likely to be turned around, and you can often skip a Doran's blade. Effectiveness late game is dropped slightly, though I have never had an issue with this because the AD carry scales SO hard.
I've done 0 analysis of the lategame implications. I don't really intend to as the early-mid game transition is largely determined by your ability to last hit. Experience has told me that if I get an IE, PD, LW, everything will die. At that point, proper positioning is many times more important than the 3% or 5% extra damage that arpen would give you.
I am confused with that I just wanted to tell you that armorpen runes are better then ad lategame (that doesnt mean that I dont use ad runes on champs which needs the help early game like trist) maybe to simplyfy armorpen vs ad reds armorpen vs champs is better after aprox level 4 or when you grab a dorans(it will be better to the end of the game) Ad is for better farming(including more lifesteal because you deal more damage) might add that for corkis passive ad is way better and for spells which deal magic dmg but scale off of ad (kogmaw ult, Corki missiles)
I will agree that you are weaker until you get the LW but if the other team is indeed tanky enough to require the LW
Again Armorpen is ALWAYS better then ad (excluding the first few levels) doesnt matter if you have lw or not (ok if the enemy would have like 10 armor then not but that is not the case, ever.
Isn't it true that arpen is worth more then more you have of it (or rather, the closer the enemy's effective armor is to 0)? I've always run arpen on Corki because of his E, because at that point LW is not really necessary over another BF item unless the enemy team is extremely tanky. He'll already be doing massive damage against squishies, and his true damage means he won't be useless against tanks. If the game went on long enough I'd prefer BC over LW.
Corki is the only AD carry I play, though (because I used to solo lane him), so I haven't put too much thought into my AD builds.
On June 09 2012 03:43 RoyGBiv_13 wrote: So I'm an unconventional bot lane player. I play both AD and support. By unconventional, i do not mean Zilean AD carry or other pub stomping troll builds, but rather, I mean that the typical AD carry builds for late game domination, while allowing the support to babysit. I prefer to dominate the lane early by using flat health runes (and sometimes masteries) and armor pen runes to ensure that I scale into late game.
This is extremely effective on heroes such as MF who like to trade constantly, as you will be 100 hp flat larger than the enemy. This makes it difficult for jungle to gank you, as their AD carry who you have been trading with will be hesitent to engage when they are low enough to be burst down. Trist is another example where flat HP + armor pen can be obscenely difficult to play against.
This has an added benefit that ganks on you are more likely to be turned around, and you can often skip a Doran's blade. Effectiveness late game is dropped slightly, though I have never had an issue with this because the AD carry scales SO hard.
I think using Flat HP is silly on an AD Carry when it is negated by several factors. One crit and that advantage is gone.
Also, it doesn't scale well into the game (which is even a reason why I don't use flat damage).
Even if you compare flat damage or flat arpen, you will get continual returns on that in a lane trade compared to losing 100 HP and never getting it back. Unless you're getting healed, in which case it just puts you slightly below the contending AD carry.
I'm not all that great by any means, but if I see an AD carry with anything other than arpen/ad and armor, I immediately think they're food.
EDIT: I guess I mirsread a little bit. You're saying Flat Health on just Quints and Blues. I still like to get the ArPen Quints and Scaling MR Blues, because if the AP mid gets out of control, that 100 extra AP is going to be neglible.
On June 09 2012 06:02 jacosajh wrote: I think using Flat HP is silly on an AD Carry when it is negated by several factors. One crit and that advantage is gone.
Also, it doesn't scale well into the game (which is even a reason why I don't use flat damage).
I've never really understood why people try to justify not using certain runes just because they don't scale into late game. Obviously there are exceptions but I pretty much only value runes for making me stronger in lane. (Not saying flat hp runes are good on AD ^_^)
On June 09 2012 06:02 jacosajh wrote: I think using Flat HP is silly on an AD Carry when it is negated by several factors. One crit and that advantage is gone.
Also, it doesn't scale well into the game (which is even a reason why I don't use flat damage).
I've never really understood why people try to justify not using certain runes just because they don't scale into late game. Obviously there are exceptions but I pretty much only value runes for making me stronger in lane. (Not saying flat hp runes are good on AD ^_^)
I'm not just talking about late game or even past level 12-13. I'm talking about the minute you walk into lane.
I already posted that in GD but than I noticed it actually fits much better in here. So:
How do you play against super aggresive bot lanes early lvl? I just had a game were I corki + janna got horrible zoned from a graves + taric lane from level 1 basically. Like the second the melee minions died taric zoned me from the ranged minions with his stun and q from graves. Should i just go for the trade (i would horrible lose I guess) and hope the minions do it worthwile? does my support have to do something about taric? If i AA or Q taric I get stunned and Q'd from graves and since graves doesnt get any dmg himself I can't do shit in lane anymore.
It's really difficult to deal with a very aggressive lane like that. You cannot give up complete bush control on your side and it's up to your support to ward it At level 1, phos bomb actually does more damage than graves' buckshot at long range. One trick that I do is to use normal cast on corki's Q. It actually has a pretty large range (600+150 AoE, pretty much equal to buckshot at 750) and outranges taric's stun by 125, enough that you can get off a free Q every once in a while. If you hit 2 or more Q's for free, they should play more passively allowing you to get the ranged minions. The key is to sacrifice the ranged minions if you have to in order to get an easier lane.
On June 20 2012 03:47 Keniji wrote: I already posted that in GD but than I noticed it actually fits much better in here. So:
How do you play against super aggresive bot lanes early lvl? I just had a game were I corki + janna got horrible zoned from a graves + taric lane from level 1 basically. Like the second the melee minions died taric zoned me from the ranged minions with his stun and q from graves. Should i just go for the trade (i would horrible lose I guess) and hope the minions do it worthwile? does my support have to do something about taric? If i AA or Q taric I get stunned and Q'd from graves and since graves doesnt get any dmg himself I can't do shit in lane anymore.
You get denied, aka just don't last hit until creeps get to tower so you can farm safely. If you trade back or last hit, you'll keep the creep line towards the center, giving them more opportunities to engage with a superior comp, and the creeps will push to you slower f'ing you up even more.
Zeal on ashe is not worth it. You're already playing an inferior lane, why gimp yourself further from getting a high tier item by getting a zeal. And we all know that IE farmed first AD wins. I don't see the advantages of getting that zeal to outweigh farming high tier item.
I play AD against the scrubs who still suck at 2-2.3K level. And pretty much, I go one dorans max most of the time and go straight for that BF. There's a time and place for heavy dorans stacking. And that's when the enemy lane is a burst lane or a kill lane. To not get 100-0 in one burst, you need dorans stacking. Or you go for that phage for tri if you're ez or corki, or whatever, (and maybe the dorans too). Like if you've won lane, won it hard, or you're the bitch 100-0 the other guy, you don't really need dorans. Straight teching to that high tier item just gives you so much power and control in solo queue. But you can only skip dorans if you're good because otherwise it's so easy to get your ass 100-0'd in fights and a mistake in lane/u getting ganked means u go crying and saying how shitty it was for you to listen to some1 on the forums.
IMO, part of the problem at lower ELO is no matter how good you are, you still have to rely on support.
At higher ELOs, it seems there is much less quarreling about who will play support, and as a result, those supports will be a lot better.
You can not make any mistakes at all at lower ELOs, but if your support feeds 2-3 kills, isn't in proper positioning, etc. you won't be able to do anything with 1 doran vs 3 doran. Even if you are playing much better than both the other AD Carry / support, all it takes is for your support to be playing much worse than them. I feel like having 3 Dorans mitigates that a lot, like you were saying. So what you're saying makes sense, and is 100% right; just that it's not as clear cut and dry in lower ELOs because you're having to rely on even bigger scrubs than at 2-2.3k ELO who at least have somewhat of an understanding of what they're doing.
I mean, even at 1450 ELO, people will say "I never play support before" and stupid crap like that.
i've seen Chaox (on Ashe mainly) do this a lot lately but once he's got 2xDBlade + Zerks + Vamp, he usually goes Zeal. that makes no sense to me. wouldn't it be better to get the Pick Axe? what's the purpose of getting Zeal early? does it provide more DPS than Pick Axe in the short run?
Ashe has no innate escapes so increased MS is nice.
Plus being able to kite and chase is also an added bonus.
But yeah, on Ashe, it's one of the champs I would actually prefer to have an IE on first.
Chaox said that he likes to rush PD in competitive games because it lets him farm more while being able to get to teamfights or to lane faster even though he'll be weaker in midgame skirmishes than the other ad carry. I think the utility on ashe alone is enough to justify getting movement speed faster than damage for those reasons.
On June 21 2012 03:22 jacosajh wrote: IMO, part of the problem at lower ELO is no matter how good you are, you still have to rely on support.
At higher ELOs, it seems there is much less quarreling about who will play support, and as a result, those supports will be a lot better.
You can not make any mistakes at all at lower ELOs, but if your support feeds 2-3 kills, isn't in proper positioning, etc. you won't be able to do anything with 1 doran vs 3 doran. Even if you are playing much better than both the other AD Carry / support, all it takes is for your support to be playing much worse than them. I feel like having 3 Dorans mitigates that a lot, like you were saying. So what you're saying makes sense, and is 100% right; just that it's not as clear cut and dry in lower ELOs because you're having to rely on even bigger scrubs than at 2-2.3k ELO who at least have somewhat of an understanding of what they're doing.
I mean, even at 1450 ELO, people will say "I never play support before" and stupid crap like that.
elo doesnt matter there are always people who don't know what they're doing lol. 3 dorans is too much unless you're vs leona lanes or some shit.
I just played a lane as Leona support with Ashe as my AD, and it worked very well. It seems to me that once Ashe and Leona are both 6 the other lane has to play super passive as the stunlocks last forever. Also has great gank assistance. Before 6 I just played brush control. It was vs Ali/Ez.
On June 21 2012 09:35 Bladeorade wrote: I just played a lane as Leona support with Ashe as my AD, and it worked very well. It seems to me that once Ashe and Leona are both 6 the other lane has to play super passive as the stunlocks last forever. Also has great gank assistance. Before 6 I just played brush control. It was vs Ali/Ez.
Ooops forgot to actually as the question:
Is this a solid lane lineup or not too great?
Compared to pairing leona with corki, trist, ezreal etc, it doesn't have the same kill potential pre-6. When leona hits her zenith blade, ashe can get one volley off and then auto-attack. Not too bursty. If you want to stunlock indefinitely at 6, varus would be a better pick since he has a good deal more burst.
EPT
