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Alright, since there seems to be so much confusion around the subject:
AD marks vs ArPen marks
Quints are always flat AD except on urgot. No exceptions on any other AD.
Sources I based information on:
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/muoe2/flat_attack_damage_vs_armor_penetration_runes/
which links to
http://siyobik.info.gf/misc/ad-vs-arp-runes.pdf
The conclusion from here is that against champions, Arpen is better than AD throughout the majority of the game. This conclusion has NO bearing on how good either is against minions. One interesting thing to note here is that flat AD is very similar if not identical to any arpen builds for level 1 fights.
If you're at an ELO where last hitting minions is irrelevant compared to killing champions, by all means run arpen marks, AD quints.
However, in more detail,
The other source I found was:
http://clgaming.net/forums/board39-reign-of-gaming/board40-blogs/board82-a-different-view/5913-debunked-are-arpen-runes-better-than-ad-runes-redux/
which links to
http://i.imgur.com/hWrKU.png
For the first 9 minutes of the game, all creeps have 6 or less armour. Keep in mind that with AD marks/quints, you still have 6 arpen from masteries, meaning you deal true damage to creeps for the first 9 minutes of the game. This is effectively +15 damage to minions for the first 9 minutes. For the first 20 minutes of the game, AD marks are straight up better than arpen for last hitting, which is the most critical part of laning. Flat AD will outdamage arpen on creeps until very late game when it barely matters at all.
You are free to agree or disagree with any of the conclusions made within the two souces I provided (Both argue in favour of having some arpen), however, my opinion sides with doublelift in that the ability to last hit better for the first 10 minutes of the game and thereby get items faster outweighs getting a bit more damage later.
The final point is that after a last whisper is purchased, flat AD marks outscale arpen marks against ~180+ armour targets, meaning you deal more damage to tanks with flat AD instead of arpen.
Edit:: Tl;DR; grammar/spelling; clarity; other reasons
AD or Arpen are largely equivalent in level 1 fights, with the exception of shooting someone running armour seals + cloth armor
Rewrote this because I forgot something:
+ Show Spoiler +AD is much better at last hitting minions during the first 10 minutes of the game (+10 - 15 damage to minions during this phase or in other words +30% at level 1). It also allows for much better last hitting under tower (One shot vs Two). No source but experience.
AD is much better at last hitting minions throughout laning (+15 damage to minions during the first 9 minutes of the game) and deals more damage than arpen until 20+ minutes when it actually does not matter anymore. (You have 6 arpen from masteries). It also allows for much better last hitting under tower (One shot vs Two) which is hugely important if you're getting pushed hard.
Looking at the graphs, you deal more damage to squishies with arpen marks, however, flat AD is better against tanks.
Summary: If you're farming champions, arpen, otherwise, flat AD.
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The reason that +10-15 AD to last hit with is so important is that if you are ever forced to CS under your tower, you are going to miss WAY fewer CS if you only need 1 hit after the tower in order to pick up the kill.
Also, super late post-LW AD marks are back to being roughly even or slightly better compared to ArPen marks. This is so late it doesn't matter much (technically crit damage marks would be best at this point of the game.)
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Also, super late post-LW AD marks are back to being roughly even or slightly better compared to ArPen marks.
pretty sure in usualy circumstances that is never the case.
For always AD quints I disagree a bit I sometimes take lifesteal quints (mainly on Kogmaw) if you do that you would have to get AD reds though
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On June 02 2012 18:39 Ente wrote:Show nested quote +Also, super late post-LW AD marks are back to being roughly even or slightly better compared to ArPen marks. pretty sure in usualy circumstances that is never the case. For always AD quints I disagree a bit I sometimes take lifesteal quints (mainly on Kogmaw) if you do that you would have to get AD reds though
Usual being ~180+ armour, it's rather common actually to have happen.
http://i.imgur.com/1Uf0j.png
It's linked from one of the sources I provided above.
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200 ad is pretty low is crit calculated? im pretty sure its not
edit: with my dps calculation it appears to never exceed armorpen runes in reechable armor ranges, the calculation goes to 400 armor(which im quite confident is true)
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Question: In Items section the OP says: Boots 3 --> x2 Dorans/ berserkers/ Vamp.
Does that mean one of those?
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On June 02 2012 19:34 Ente wrote:
200 ad is pretty low is crit calculated? im pretty sure its not
edit: with my dps calculation it appears to never exceed armorpen runes in reechable armor ranges, the calculation goes to 400 armor(which im quite confident is true)
I've done 0 analysis of the lategame implications. I don't really intend to as the early-mid game transition is largely determined by your ability to last hit. Experience has told me that if I get an IE, PD, LW, everything will die. At that point, proper positioning is many times more important than the 3% or 5% extra damage that arpen would give you.
A cursory examination:
Also, lategame, most squishies have ~90 armour and 2k health. Your luck with crits determines how fast they die. The 5% damage either way makes no difference. I will agree that you are weaker until you get the LW but if the other team is indeed tanky enough to require the LW, you should have no problem buying a zeal > LW instead of a PD > LW.
Edit:: adding reply to above
On June 03 2012 04:19 the_fixxer wrote:
Question: In Items section the OP says: Boots 3 --> x2 Dorans/ berserkers/ Vamp.
Does that mean one of those?
It means to buy them all in some order. The 2x Dorans give you some sustain, damage, and tankiness. Boots are a necessity and the vamp sceptre allows you to never buy a pot again for the rest of the game.
Generally, you always want to get at least one dorans the first time you back, with the second item determined by the lane. My thoughts are that zerks are never a bad choice since they facilitate easier last hitting with the increased attack speed and much more choice over when and where to trade.
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I'd add that Leona is AMAZING with Varus, the double proc bonus damage and the ability to hold someone down for hours with him eating them alive is just too stronk.
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I've done 0 analysis of the lategame implications. I don't really intend to as the early-mid game transition is largely determined by your ability to last hit. Experience has told me that if I get an IE, PD, LW, everything will die. At that point, proper positioning is many times more important than the 3% or 5% extra damage that arpen would give you.
I am confused with that 
I just wanted to tell you that armorpen runes are better then ad lategame (that doesnt mean that I dont use ad runes on champs which needs the help early game like trist) maybe to simplyfy armorpen vs ad reds
armorpen vs champs is better after aprox level 4 or when you grab a dorans(it will be better to the end of the game)
Ad is for better farming(including more lifesteal because you deal more damage) might add that for corkis passive ad is way better and for spells which deal magic dmg but scale off of ad (kogmaw ult, Corki missiles)
I will agree that you are weaker until you get the LW but if the other team is indeed tanky enough to require the LW
Again Armorpen is ALWAYS better then ad (excluding the first few levels) doesnt matter if you have lw or not (ok if the enemy would have like 10 armor then not but that is not the case, ever.
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so what runes would you recommend on ADs that are not ez/kog/corki? Also what do you think of getting pickaxe + crit cloak before BF?
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Enten, do you use MS quints on anyone? Ashe?
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Alright. I'm actually tired of trying to argue for or against either side of this.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tzk1T.jpg)
I took ashe's base armour values with armour seals and 3 points in the armour masterie (+6 armour) and just boxed the relevant areas in paint. the 50/75/100 AD are before any runes or masteries are applied. 50 AD is representative of the beginning of the game until your first B.
75 AD is a little lower than what you'd have with double dorans + levels. Around here AD/Arpen are similar with arpen growing stronger as you level. Keep in mind that the two rune sets are +/-3 damage all the way to 100 AD.
Flat AD is straight up better than arpen against minions until past the point at which it doesn't matter (BF sword+, melee minions do not have 19+ armour until ~20 minutes into the game).
My final statement is that skills are sometimes better than 1.0 scaling (cait's Q is 1.3, Sivir's is 1.2, up to 1.98, varus is 1.0 to 1.6 on his Q) so it may depend on which champion you're playing.
I want people to make informed decisions via showing them the math and numbers. I will not say either is straight up better unless it truly is.
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Rarely i will use MS quints on Varus and Ashe
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On June 03 2012 08:57 zulu_nation8 wrote:
so what runes would you recommend on ADs that are not ez/kog/corki? Also what do you think of getting pickaxe + crit cloak before BF?
This is a far more interesting question to me than runing. I mean yeah, you get 20 more damage with BF sword but 18% crit chance is pretty huge. Unless you happen to back and can buy the BF sword out right I think more often than not it makes more sense to buy pieces of IE rather than buying nothing.
Also would not be surprised if the dps between BF and pickaxe + crit cloak is pretty close to even.
edit:
Out of curiosity, does anyone think that Ashe is going to see a resurgence? The change to her Q is noticeable imo and her laning while still not as good as practically any other AD is still crazyyy safe if you play smart. Not to mention I honestly am starting to feel like she might be the best AD carry late game. Sure she doesn't have the dps that practically any other AD has but I feel like she more than makes up for it with her kit. I'm wondering if she feel off in popularity more due to the fact that people valued winning lanes and mid game a lot more than trying to drag games out to late game where Ashe shines.
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On June 03 2012 14:34 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 08:57 zulu_nation8 wrote:
so what runes would you recommend on ADs that are not ez/kog/corki? Also what do you think of getting pickaxe + crit cloak before BF? This is a far more interesting question to me than runing. I mean yeah, you get 20 more damage with BF sword but 18% crit chance is pretty huge. Unless you happen to back and can buy the BF sword out right I think more often than not it makes more sense to buy pieces of IE rather than buying nothing. Also would not be surprised if the dps between BF and pickaxe + crit cloak is pretty close to even. edit: Out of curiosity, does anyone think that Ashe is going to see a resurgence? The change to her Q is noticeable imo and her laning while still not as good as practically any other AD is still crazyyy safe if you play smart. Not to mention I honestly am starting to feel like she might be the best AD carry late game. Sure she doesn't have the dps that practically any other AD has but I feel like she more than makes up for it with her kit. I'm wondering if she feel off in popularity more due to the fact that people valued winning lanes and mid game a lot more than trying to drag games out to late game where Ashe shines.
You always want the BF if possible but it's better to go pickaxe into crit cloak if you can't get the BF. It's really important to have some item(s) for the first dragon fight beyond just dorans.
Quick calculation, assuming you have 100 AD before buying either BF or crit+pickaxe and 1 attack per second
BF will do 145 dps
Pickaxe + crit = 125 *1.18 =147.5 dps
BF is guaranteed damage, crit cloak is random. Getting crits will win you a trade outright against a BF but an unlucky streak will lose you trades.
Ashe lately has been considered one of the top 3 ADs since her kit is so damn good. With a volley every 4 seconds, her dps is actually much higher than you would expect. She was already seeing a resurgence around the time they reduced the cooldown on her volley at lower levels and buffed her base stats. Now that her frost shot has been buffed she's got everything. She has long range, is the best kiting AD, has a hard initiate and also has a line+area CV.
Also, she looks amazing.
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can you give me the calculation behind those graphs because for my spreadsheets those calculations are incorrect (and if you would have seen some threads on reddit where exactly this is calculated you would know that it is incorrect).
and no I dont want to say that armorpen are the best and always to go runes I use ad aswell.
And with the over 1.x scaling that doesnt mean ad gets better because usually you will have more ad then armorpen anyway and the more damage your spells do the better armorpen gets and the less ad you have the better ad gets. This is the case with every damage increase like as/crit etc.
I dont use ms quints ever I dont think that they are very powerfull
so what runes would you recommend on ADs that are not ez/kog/corki? Also what do you think of getting pickaxe + crit cloak before BF?
pickaxe/crit would only be the case if I cant afford anything else. For me everything depends on my money situation if I get zeal or just straight bf or sth else. Which I should probably do more is get critcloak instead of pickaxe. Honestly I dont know the math behind that but if you do it you could still finish your PD (if you already got a zeal) for my runes
Ashe: ad/ad manaregen or magicresist(depends on the botlane matchup)
Corki: same as ashe
Ezreal armorpen/ad manaregen/mr
Graves armorpen/ad same as before
Kogmaw ad/ad manaregen/mr or ad/lifesteal manaregen/mr sometimes I actually use utility masteries on him(21/0/9) for the double buff lategame this is the only champ where I would use 9 in utility
Mf armorpen/ad mr rarely manaregen but happens aswell.
Sivir amorpen/ad mr/manaregen
Trist ad/ad mr sometimes flat AP(no not ad!) if I want to be insanly agressive usually not in soloq though
Urgot armorpen/armorpen magicresist/manaregen
Varus no clue probably armorpen/ad manaregen/mr
vayne ad/ad mr with vayne I like to have both in ad because you will mostly lasthit at the tower
yellow ist armor every game.
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On June 03 2012 18:30 Ente wrote:can you give me the calculation behind those graphs because for my spreadsheets those calculations are incorrect (and if you would have seen some threads on reddit where exactly this is calculated you would know that it is incorrect). and no I dont want to say that armorpen are the best and always to go runes I use ad aswell. And with the over 1.x scaling that doesnt mean ad gets better because usually you will have more ad then armorpen anyway and the more damage your spells do the better armorpen gets and the less ad you have the better ad gets. This is the case with every damage increase like as/crit etc. I dont use ms quints ever I dont think that they are very powerfull Show nested quote +so what runes would you recommend on ADs that are not ez/kog/corki? Also what do you think of getting pickaxe + crit cloak before BF? pickaxe/crit would only be the case if I cant afford anything else. For me everything depends on my money situation if I get zeal or just straight bf or sth else. Which I should probably do more is get critcloak instead of pickaxe. Honestly I dont know the math behind that but if you do it you could still finish your PD (if you already got a zeal) for my runes Ashe: ad/ad manaregen or magicresist(depends on the botlane matchup) Corki: same as ashe Ezreal armorpen/ad manaregen/mr Graves armorpen/ad same as before Kogmaw ad/ad manaregen/mr or ad/lifesteal manaregen/mr sometimes I actually use utility masteries on him(21/0/9) for the double buff lategame this is the only champ where I would use 9 in utility Mf armorpen/ad mr rarely manaregen but happens aswell. Sivir amorpen/ad mr/manaregen Trist ad/ad mr sometimes flat AP(no not ad!) if I want to be insanly agressive usually not in soloq though Urgot armorpen/armorpen magicresist/manaregen Varus no clue probably armorpen/ad manaregen/mr vayne ad/ad mr with vayne I like to have both in ad because you will mostly lasthit at the tower yellow ist armor every game.
I don't have the original calculations. I was just researching information behind AD vs arpen and found those graphs.
The formula I'm basing the caluclations on will be based on this article
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration
I'll remake the graphs in the next little bit though to confirm the numbers though.
Edit::
Remade the table, not going to graph them.. The formula I'm using is
100/(100+((Enemy Armour - 6 - Arpen)*0.9))*(BaseAD+4+AD from runes)
I'm neglecting the AD per level in masteries as it's a variable that actually won't affect the final value by very much.
The chart is accurate now for all armour values.
+ Show Spoiler +
The one thing to note is that the numbers are incorrect for armour values below 21 and 31 for these charts. Arpen does not reduce armour below 0 and will be incorrect until I update the numbers.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Al2Ha0mKR9uCdGVDZUlqSGdGa0VnX0U4cGN2bHMwa2c
I made the 50 AD graph but it's late and I'm actually pretty terrible with spreadsheets. It does look very similar to the original graph though.
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On June 03 2012 14:34 overt wrote:
edit:
Out of curiosity, does anyone think that Ashe is going to see a resurgence? The change to her Q is noticeable imo and her laning while still not as good as practically any other AD is still crazyyy safe if you play smart. Not to mention I honestly am starting to feel like she might be the best AD carry late game. Sure she doesn't have the dps that practically any other AD has but I feel like she more than makes up for it with her kit. I'm wondering if she feel off in popularity more due to the fact that people valued winning lanes and mid game a lot more than trying to drag games out to late game where Ashe shines.
Few minutes ago Lamia scored just another Pentakill with Ashe in that in2lol tournament or what it is called vs AL.
She's still the lategame carry she has always been (your post pretty much summed it up) but her popularity decreased because of more and more gap closing bruisers and her comparatively not so strong laning phase.
If you manage to stay in the game and 'only' lose lane by 20-30 CS, you're still going to be the beast with Ashe like it always has been.
Just checked Lamia's rune page. If he hasn't switched it (so the one he used in the game is shown first) he ran ArPen runes on Ashe despite the fact that her low base damage would profit from full AD runes to help last hitting. Comes down to preference it seems.
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It means to buy them all in some order. The 2x Dorans give you some sustain, damage, and tankiness. Boots are a necessity and the vamp sceptre allows you to never buy a pot again for the rest of the game.
Generally, you always want to get at least one dorans the first time you back, with the second item determined by the lane. My thoughts are that zerks are never a bad choice since they facilitate easier last hitting with the increased attack speed and much more choice over when and where to trade.
Thank you =D
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EPT
