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[Role] Ranged AD - Page 2

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De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
June 01 2012 19:21 GMT
#21
On June 02 2012 00:07 brolaf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2012 14:23 jcc wrote:
Are you kidding? Most AD's use them, it results in the same mr as flats at level 9...which is about 2 levels before laning phase ends, and by the time team fights happens its already higher than flats...how is that bad? Odds are you won't encounter the enemy ap much until levels 8 +, so no reason to not get scaling.

At pro level, most games are decided by 9.

what the fuck this is not true at all lol.
GANDHISAUCE
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
June 01 2012 19:33 GMT
#22
Awesome guide, this helps a lot with learning to play an AD carry.

A specific question:

when do you get Berserker's Greaves with Kog? I don't see it anywhere in your kog build.
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
jcc
Profile Joined January 2011
United States472 Posts
June 01 2012 19:34 GMT
#23
Caitlyn + Taric used to be good, but i never see it run anymore and honestly there is no real synergy. Why run Cait Taric when you could do Graves Taric, Corki Taric, or Varus Taric. See what i mean? Cait has better synergy with the supports i put her with in my opinion. Of course this guide is mostly based on my play experience, so take it with some grain of salt .

Ezreal Sona used to be good imo, but its very mana intensive and most good bot lanes will destroy you once your mana reaches like 1/3, i've seen it attempted but it almost always falls through, i'll play test it some in practice though and see if its worth putting in again.
http://broukej.cz/lol-signatures/GGod_na_103_4_logo.png
jcc
Profile Joined January 2011
United States472 Posts
June 01 2012 19:48 GMT
#24
@Blasius

I sort of play it by ear. Typically i always try to get the 2 Dorans first for better survivability, some sustain, and to keep my AD relatively high for when the creeps get under tower i can land every last hit (because they gain HP over time). If my next go back i can get zeal, i get it. But on my first go back if i can get 2 dorans / Zerks, i do that. Basically my rule of thumb, if you can get at least 1 doran and zeal, get the zeal. If not, just get the dorans x 2 and zerks. Going doranless is dangerous though, since it just makes him all the squishier.

And thanks for the compliments, i'm glad it helped ^^. Theres more to come.
http://broukej.cz/lol-signatures/GGod_na_103_4_logo.png
Dandel Ion
Profile Joined November 2010
Austria17960 Posts
June 01 2012 20:07 GMT
#25
On June 02 2012 04:34 jcc wrote:
Caitlyn + Taric used to be good, but i never see it run anymore and honestly there is no real synergy. Why run Cait Taric when you could do Graves Taric, Corki Taric, or Varus Taric. See what i mean? Cait has better synergy with the supports i put her with in my opinion. Of course this guide is mostly based on my play experience, so take it with some grain of salt .

Cait has baller synergy with Taric: Stun + trap
Most ADs can't even hit Cait during the trap, so it a bunch of free damage. Which I hope you knew already.
It sure as hell is more synergy than she has with Soraka.

On June 02 2012 04:34 jcc wrote:
Ezreal Sona used to be good imo, but its very mana intensive and most good bot lanes will destroy you once your mana reaches like 1/3, i've seen it attempted but it almost always falls through, i'll play test it some in practice though and see if its worth putting in again.

I could say the same for Cait/Sona. Exactly the same. Because it's the same principle: A zone/poke lane.

Your only argument seems to be "nobody plays it anymore"...
A backwards poet writes inverse.
jcc
Profile Joined January 2011
United States472 Posts
June 01 2012 20:22 GMT
#26
The thing about Cait / Sona is that its far too mana intensive. The thing about Cait lanes is that the whole time you are dancing on a knife's edge. Cait starts out with a considerable advantage from levels 1 - 4, but then her advantage just stays as a small advantage, in that you always get the first hits and decide typically where fights happen. BUT, if the enemy lane lands a kill on you or your support and starts even the smallest snowball a Cait lane has NEXT TO NO WAY of coming back. Cait lanes scale terribly and is fully reliant on early dominance. If you slip up once the lane is over for you.

stun + trap sounds nice but the delay time is pretty long on trap, and the time it takes for the stun to reach them and cast your trap, odds are they already walked out. The traps has a long delay from casting ---> activating. Alistar would suit the combo better as his knock up ends up closer to 2-2.5 seconds. even longer if you hit them against a wall. Cait sona used to be the best lane, but they have no real synergy besides range, and if you dont gain huge dominance early, sona's sustain will not be enough to keep you up. Because her mana costs are so high, she has to pick harass or sustain. If you are forced to sustain before 6, you lost the lane and will have a weak midgame.

Again these are most of my experiences, and Cait is a hero I don't play as often as the others, so if you like Cait Taric go ahead, but at high elo Cait is rarely seen (from my experiences), and the only Cait lanes i've seen work are Cait / janna, Cait / nunu.
http://broukej.cz/lol-signatures/GGod_na_103_4_logo.png
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
June 01 2012 20:42 GMT
#27
You can add sona to like every single ad carry in the game. She's just that well-rounded (although debatable, not that powerful atm)
hi
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-01 22:30:12
June 01 2012 22:29 GMT
#28
Caitlyn Taric still works, the key is that you have to set the trap as the stun from taric is in flight which requires good reflexes or good communication. It can still wreck shorter ranged ADs if they get caught since they're taking 3+ auto attacks and usually a Q from caitlyn as well. The main problem is that there's much less kill potential compared to taric+graves, ali+trist etc. You're relying on being able to pull off the combo two to three times in a short span of time in order to get kills or do it consistently enough to force them out of lane.

Sona is a somewhat situational support. She goes well with any AD that is inherently strong in lane (Graves, Varus, MF etc) since they can generally take care of themselves meaning most other ADs will not want to initiate trades. If the AD does take damage, it's generally enough for them to pot up since they haven't taken enough damage to necessitate healing from sona. If she's forced to divide mana between healing and harass, she runs oom during the time where she's strongest (levels 3-7) and has more frontloaded burst than most AD carries. She's not as good with laners like ashe for example where she'll most likely have to go QWWEW to live the laning phase.
little fancy
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany2504 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 00:04:54
June 02 2012 00:03 GMT
#29
I like this overview a lot, it describes the nature of every ad pretty well and matches with my experience for the most part.

Maybe you could add that bot lane became pretty aggressive in contrast to the past where it was more or less a farm fest. These days, strong laners seem to be the prefered choice to keep the option to go all in when necessary.

What I am trying to say is that (both in solo queue and competitive tournament play) aggressive and strong bot lane combinations seem to be more common. I see Kog / Graves / Corki more often than Ashe / Cait / Trist. The former three are more far more consistent than the latter regarding their power curve during the game which is probably why people play them more.

Ente
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany1795 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 01:13:04
June 02 2012 01:08 GMT
#30

Another reason why is that most abilities (sivir's boomerang, caitlyn's Q, Ashe's volley) scale off of AD. The added AD does more than any arpen would for a lot of skills.

That is actually wrong thinking it is the other way around. If you have spells Armorpen gets better and if you have no physical spells ad gets better.

With the recent nerf to flat MR those are a bit better in my opinion its still mostly better to use flat.
I dont really see a reason to use 21/0/9 often the buff duration is not great imo and if you really want manaregen im pretty sure that using manaregen runes and go 21/9/0 is better (thats what I do atleast the little bit MR you get is not that important in my opinion) If I dont get heal I usually go for less minion damage aswell. That is actually a really good mastery. If im not against heavy magic damage in lane (for example trist sona would be such a lane)

Please use manaregen runes if you want the manaregen on urgot and get 9 points in defense (the hp is just so good esp cause you can get dominated lvl 1/2 which might lose you the lane)

The Holy Trinity of AD: Infinity's Edge / Phantom Dancer / Last Whisper

I dont agree that is the most common build but I think its overrated and the lastwhisper can be replaced by phantom dancer in many situations(in some lw is obv better and for some1 like graves/trist, cause of the as/spells for graves its pretty much always better)
if you dont believe me do the maths the cutoff should be around 160 armor and if you get bt the cutoff is around 230 (depends on buffs/debuffs etc)

more for items you are correct with the finished item build but! (at least in europe) it is quite common to go bf -> zeal -> IE or zeal -> bf -> pd or bf -> zeal -> pd -> IE all depends on your money situation

urgot GA, BT, LW.

I definetly disagree in saying that so onesided. Quite common items with Urgot are: BC, Warmogs, Frozen mallet, Randuin, Maw in addition to yours LW is actually not really good on Urgot because of the percentage armor reduction on his e (check the wiki for armor calculations)

for playstyle: with ashe you should say to either skill e at 2 or 4

im not sure how you rate the supports inbetween but I would say soraka is by far the best support for caitlyn

With kogmaw the usual build is w > e > q (maybe onepoint early on but not even that is mandatory)

For MF you max w > q > e personally I like to max w > e > q (obv 1 point early on in q ) because the laning phase is over when you start putting points in your q and in teamfights you will not cast it anyways but thats preference
I would definetly rate taric way higher for mf (you didnt even mention him but im maybe a bit weird that I would always prefer taric over ali I know that ali is really high rated in us)

for Sivir you should add that you should keep 75 mana for your e

ah your urgot post was really bad you can get 3 qs in one e all the time when you get above 25% cdr (I actually dont know it 100% how much but glacial/brutalizer is enough) you can get 4 in nothing with 1 or 2.
You should add that Urgots ultimate gives him huge amounts of MR and armor.
I think that blitzcrank and ali are not that great with Urgot janna is way better then both of these (huge amount of ad + ms buff) should add leona aswell way better then ali.

For Varus I would think that e>w>q is better because maxing e reduces the cooldown by quite a lot. But I might be wrong here cause I dont play him that much.

I dont agree with vayne beeing the best ad carry lategame in my opinion full itemized Tristana/ashe are better then vayne. Corki and Kogmaw(only 50% uptime on his w hurts his real lategame a little bit) can compete (the truedmg is actually pretty much the same) Vaynes true strength is her midgame where the gifted AD trough the ultimate truley shines.


I think overall the guide is okay but not that great.
Im currently the ad carry for Millenium, im not saying that to impress anyone, I just say that so you understand that I know what im talking about and that im not someone who just talks without knowing much about that.


edit: some people ask when to get this when to get that. I know if you are knew its nice to have some kind of guideline (I have this problem when I play dota atm ) but at least for me and im pretty sure thats the case for most ad players it always depends on your money situation. I want to get my Phantomdancer, I want to get my Infinity and in between I want to get farm in lane without dying. So I get 1-2 dorans (I think 0 dorans is really bad) 0-1 vamp scepter(sometimes this just isnt needed) as boots (yes I think you should most of the time get them during laningphase).
After that I get the items for IE and PD. One thing which I need to "learn" or do better is to get the cloak of agility when I have bf sword and a zeal so I can either get PD or IE depending how much money I have when I have to recall.

Usually (at least at higher levels of play) there is not a situation where you want to recall. There are situations where you have to recall to keep up with your laningopponent to get ready for drake/baron/pushing etc etc.
lol acc: Entenzwerg EUW http://www.twitch.tv/Entenzwerg league of legends stream (challenger EuW)
jcc
Profile Joined January 2011
United States472 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 01:26:38
June 02 2012 01:22 GMT
#31
@ Ente alot of your stuff, especially like how you say to go frozen mallet or warmogs for urgot are more for real organized ranked 5v5's, alot of this guide is more centered for solo queue true so i do appreciate the opinions you posted and will take some of it for consideration in my builds (i still think BC on urgot sounds awful though).

And yes i know that builds are actually very flexible and that you can get items in many different orders, and its all situation dependent BUT to describe that in absolute full detail would be nothing short of taxing. I did the best I could so forgive me if its sub par. And i didn't meant o say vayne was the best late game, i don't think she is either, but she has some of the highest potential dps in the late game.

And i dont clarify that urgot's ult gives defensive stats and stuff because i say at the begining that i expect most people to know the abilities, i just kind of described situations. I personally don't agree with mana regen runes, I used to use them but found the effect was small. I do know that alot of urgots use 21/9/0, but i've been play testing both and that is my current urgot page. I'll try out the one you suggested though. Thanks for the input.

And ya i typically only recall if i absolutely have to, or after a good gank / trade and they recall first or i have a decent advantage.
http://broukej.cz/lol-signatures/GGod_na_103_4_logo.png
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
June 02 2012 01:40 GMT
#32
Couple things. First, Soraka/Ezreal is about my favorite lane ever. I can spam all day with pretty much no care, it's really great zoning and poke against most lane comps.

Secondly, I'd like to ask when you all use Heal as a Ranged AD summoner spell. I generally like it when my support is a healer already, it allows for some very cool baits and survival fights that you wouldn't think. Also, when I'm playing Ez and go Sheen early or generally anyone where I skip out on Vamp Scepter (which I do occasionally), I like having Heal in my back pocket, since I don't find myself using Ignite far too often. What about you?
It's your boy Guzma!
Ente
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany1795 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 01:50:00
June 02 2012 01:47 GMT
#33
ok explaining how armor works ^.^
we have 4 different types of negative armor changing they are getting applied in that order:
Flat armor Reduction (for example BC Nasus e etc), thats the only thing which can get the armor to negative
Percantage Armor Reduction (for example Urgot E)
Flat Armor Penetration (Runes, Mastery)
Percantage Armor Penetration (LW, Mastery)


Yes I usually dont get BC either but I dont like lw either so I will show you the dps which you would get if you have a lw and no lw. the stats I will take:
20% Armorreduction (maxed e)
46 Armorpen (armorpen red/quint/mastery/brutalizer)
10% Armorpenetration(mastery) or 46% Armorpenetration (with lw and mastery) I assume 200 Armor which is highly unlikely because you will mostly hit squishies anyway.
102.6 armor without lw
61.56 with lw
(with a full stacked bc it would be 70.2)
so the armor difference would just be 40 and 200 armor is a target which you will most likely not hit and as Urgot you will not be able to kill them anyway.

One thing which I forgot to mention is exhaust. I think exhaust is a summoner (again ) which the ad carry can take. Yes I think double exhaust on botlane is not wasted. Sitation where I would take exhaust on ad carries: the enemy has 2 dangerous bruisers for example Poppy/Jax (played against that in solo q was really annoying) and you play an ad carry which is either not dependand on the ignite debuff (I played MF this game for varus would be ok aswell) or you cant pick heal and want a defensive summoner (if you play vs MF/trist/varus) I think for URgot exhaust is pretty good aswell because hes insanly close to the opponent.
I mean that for urgot you shouldnt only use the ultimate to initiate it should be used in pretty much every fight you take to give you armor/MR and to slow down your oponent (for example you, or your support exhausts and after your exhaust is over you swap to get the armor)


Edit: about the thing with organized premades. I dont see a big difference in item build for me between premade/non premade. In playstyle yes but why items? Drake mostly gets timed aswell mostly you should be there when it spawns etc.
lol acc: Entenzwerg EUW http://www.twitch.tv/Entenzwerg league of legends stream (challenger EuW)
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
June 02 2012 01:50 GMT
#34
On June 02 2012 10:08 Ente wrote:
Show nested quote +

Another reason why is that most abilities (sivir's boomerang, caitlyn's Q, Ashe's volley) scale off of AD. The added AD does more than any arpen would for a lot of skills.

That is actually wrong thinking it is the other way around. If you have spells Armorpen gets better and if you have no physical spells ad gets better.

With the recent nerf to flat MR those are a bit better in my opinion its still mostly better to use flat.
I dont really see a reason to use 21/0/9 often the buff duration is not great imo and if you really want manaregen im pretty sure that using manaregen runes and go 21/9/0 is better (thats what I do atleast the little bit MR you get is not that important in my opinion) If I dont get heal I usually go for less minion damage aswell. That is actually a really good mastery. If im not against heavy magic damage in lane (for example trist sona would be such a lane)

Please use manaregen runes if you want the manaregen on urgot and get 9 points in defense (the hp is just so good esp cause you can get dominated lvl 1/2 which might lose you the lane)
Show nested quote +

The Holy Trinity of AD: Infinity's Edge / Phantom Dancer / Last Whisper

I dont agree that is the most common build but I think its overrated and the lastwhisper can be replaced by phantom dancer in many situations(in some lw is obv better and for some1 like graves/trist, cause of the as/spells for graves its pretty much always better)
if you dont believe me do the maths the cutoff should be around 160 armor and if you get bt the cutoff is around 230 (depends on buffs/debuffs etc)

more for items you are correct with the finished item build but! (at least in europe) it is quite common to go bf -> zeal -> IE or zeal -> bf -> pd or bf -> zeal -> pd -> IE all depends on your money situation

Show nested quote +
urgot GA, BT, LW.

I definetly disagree in saying that so onesided. Quite common items with Urgot are: BC, Warmogs, Frozen mallet, Randuin, Maw in addition to yours LW is actually not really good on Urgot because of the percentage armor reduction on his e (check the wiki for armor calculations)

for playstyle: with ashe you should say to either skill e at 2 or 4

im not sure how you rate the supports inbetween but I would say soraka is by far the best support for caitlyn

With kogmaw the usual build is w > e > q (maybe onepoint early on but not even that is mandatory)

For MF you max w > q > e personally I like to max w > e > q (obv 1 point early on in q ) because the laning phase is over when you start putting points in your q and in teamfights you will not cast it anyways but thats preference
I would definetly rate taric way higher for mf (you didnt even mention him but im maybe a bit weird that I would always prefer taric over ali I know that ali is really high rated in us)

for Sivir you should add that you should keep 75 mana for your e

ah your urgot post was really bad you can get 3 qs in one e all the time when you get above 25% cdr (I actually dont know it 100% how much but glacial/brutalizer is enough) you can get 4 in nothing with 1 or 2.
You should add that Urgots ultimate gives him huge amounts of MR and armor.
I think that blitzcrank and ali are not that great with Urgot janna is way better then both of these (huge amount of ad + ms buff) should add leona aswell way better then ali.

For Varus I would think that e>w>q is better because maxing e reduces the cooldown by quite a lot. But I might be wrong here cause I dont play him that much.

I dont agree with vayne beeing the best ad carry lategame in my opinion full itemized Tristana/ashe are better then vayne. Corki and Kogmaw(only 50% uptime on his w hurts his real lategame a little bit) can compete (the truedmg is actually pretty much the same) Vaynes true strength is her midgame where the gifted AD trough the ultimate truley shines.


I think overall the guide is okay but not that great.
Im currently the ad carry for Millenium, im not saying that to impress anyone, I just say that so you understand that I know what im talking about and that im not someone who just talks without knowing much about that.


edit: some people ask when to get this when to get that. I know if you are knew its nice to have some kind of guideline (I have this problem when I play dota atm ) but at least for me and im pretty sure thats the case for most ad players it always depends on your money situation. I want to get my Phantomdancer, I want to get my Infinity and in between I want to get farm in lane without dying. So I get 1-2 dorans (I think 0 dorans is really bad) 0-1 vamp scepter(sometimes this just isnt needed) as boots (yes I think you should most of the time get them during laningphase).
After that I get the items for IE and PD. One thing which I need to "learn" or do better is to get the cloak of agility when I have bf sword and a zeal so I can either get PD or IE depending how much money I have when I have to recall.

Usually (at least at higher levels of play) there is not a situation where you want to recall. There are situations where you have to recall to keep up with your laningopponent to get ready for drake/baron/pushing etc etc.

Trying to squeeze out an extra PD isnt going to help you at all late game. you're going to be hitting for so much less than if you had LW with its 40 damage and 40% armor pen, which i think with the 10% mastery is like 47% or something?

I dont think ive ever seen a situation where an extra PD would be better than LW
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
June 02 2012 01:59 GMT
#35
ente please write a guide
Ente
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany1795 Posts
June 02 2012 02:05 GMT
#36
as I said the cutoff for Ashe (I just checked it) for PD PD IE AS boots vs PD LW IE AS boots is ~150 Armor
for PD PD IE BT as boots vs PD LW IE BT as botts it is ~230 Armor
not included are external buffs/debuffs
For example if you have a nunu which buffs you getting a second PD is always bad and if you have a Janna PD gets better (even with aegis/redpot pd gets better) with champs which reduces the enemy armor further like Karthus, Renekton, Jarvan, Rammus etc LW gets worse. In addition PD gives you way more utility with easier kiting because you have more as and ms.

I dont say that LW is worse then PD I just say that LW every game is not that great in my opinion. LW obv has some advantages: its cheaper a full build LW is obv better then a half build PD. LW works on spells (so for example for graves q r ashe w etc its great) you can get pretty fast more then 2.5 as (with trist or graves for example)

One interesting thing for Kogmaw the cutoff is actually over 400 armor (with the w on)
lol acc: Entenzwerg EUW http://www.twitch.tv/Entenzwerg league of legends stream (challenger EuW)
Abenson
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada4122 Posts
June 02 2012 02:15 GMT
#37
Really helpful guide, thanks for writing!
jcc
Profile Joined January 2011
United States472 Posts
June 02 2012 03:34 GMT
#38
@Ente, Yeah alot of the deep mathcraft i don't exactly know, though i did know armor reduction precedes armor pen percents. And yes i agree, i tend to get more PD's if i have janna, and BT or LW or something when i have nunu. I suppose i can add some more of these subtleties to the guide, it makes sense to. Some of these things are just common sense since i been doing AD for a while lol.
http://broukej.cz/lol-signatures/GGod_na_103_4_logo.png
Thetan
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
240 Posts
June 02 2012 04:38 GMT
#39
Appreciate the effort jcc. If I were to make one recommendation though, it would be to focus on more overarching principles (such as in your Role section) and not so much on small individual champion guides - those champions should have their own threads already that can/should go into greater detail than you can here.

Questions of general, overall knowledge of roles that I think would be interesting to put in the guide:

-Why AD bot? Under what circumstances could ranged AD carry work top/mid/jungle/support? How does playstyle/build differ in these situations?

-Why is it that flat AD is better than armor pen? You make claims, but don't offer any evidence.

-Why do you choose each mastery point? What are the tradeoffs involved? In what situations should (if at all) you choose less popular mastery set-ups?

-Discussion on seemingly useful but rarely used runes (+lifesteal, +crit chance, +crit dmg, atkdmg/lvl, +exp, +mvspd), masteries (minion dmg reduction, +dmg to turrets, havoc, +minion dmg, movespeed in utility, -death timer, 22+ mastery points in offense, health regen), and items (wriggles, black cleaver, brutalizer, trinity, atmas, frozen mallet, hexdrinker/maw , bloodrazer, tiamat). Why are they rarely used? What are the costs/benefits of their use? Are there any situations where they should be used?

Personally, those are the questions that I would like to be answered in an "AD bot" guide - more of a mindset and detailed overview of options. Don't make assumptions/dismiss things (e.g. tiamat always worthless), instead, try and imagine situations in which it could be useful (e.g. um....if you have a team w/ aoe cc that can force teamfights in jungle for some reason?) in order to expand options/possibilities rather than limit them. Unless you have proof (mathcrafts!), dismissive assumptions just don't feel right to me. And a bunch of the answers to those questions are prob. also floating around in Gen. Discussion somewhere, and compiling all the pertinent knowledge that's dropped in those threads could be nice as well.

Just my 2 cents. Hope that helps!
jcc
Profile Joined January 2011
United States472 Posts
June 02 2012 04:52 GMT
#40
Mmk, i like those thoughts. This was primarily done to help guide people that are interested in trying AD, which i why I focused on a hero to hero basis of what to do and how to approach it.

But I do like your suggestions and I want to do those, it'll take time though, and alot of my thought processes on those may be simpler than what some want. And I personally am real bad at mathcrafts and don't have the patience to go deep into those, so i'd appreciate if anyone else did that and i will add it to the main post and credit you.
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