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On May 08 2012 05:17 Two_DoWn wrote:The biggest change was the speed at which you could garner exp and gold. Because camps were more concentrated, on longer respawns, it was much easier to go through phases where you would spend time ganking, then make a quick farm run, then spend time ganking again. Clearest example is the struggle that TOO had: instead of being able to focus on helping lanes while still keeping up on levels and gold (longer respawn timers and higher gains) he struggled with the balance between farming and ganking. I also consider the pre change jungle to be the best we ever saw. Games were much more dynamic BECAUSE jungles would clear, then have 30 seconds before a buff came up so they were free to go about the map and try to make things happen. It basically came back to Riot's seeming philosophy to make it impossible for anyone to actually die because then people might feel bad. Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:16 Mogwai wrote:On May 08 2012 05:12 Eiii wrote:
Can you talk about what the negative consequences of the changes were? I didn't play jungle at all at the time, but a friend who played lee sin was really unhappy and felt that his ability to affect games went way down. tbh I didn't feel too sorry for him. eh, he's also wrong. lee actually benefited quite a bit from the remake IMO. Mobility went up a ton in jungle value and he's got that in spades. Yes and no IMO. He certainly benifited from the standpoint of the level 2 red gank, and the fact that mobility is key (as you noted) as well as the fact that he excells against low health champs (which made his counterjungle much more impressive because of the decreased leveling speed of the enemy jungle). However, LS REALLY loved the fact that he could easily gank and not have to worry about losing farm or exp because his camps hadn't respawned. It meant gank time was essentially free.
Nobody got hurt by the jungle changes more than Fiddlesticks. He went from being banned in high level solo queue, to being a terrible pick.
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On May 08 2012 05:42 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:17 Two_DoWn wrote:The biggest change was the speed at which you could garner exp and gold. Because camps were more concentrated, on longer respawns, it was much easier to go through phases where you would spend time ganking, then make a quick farm run, then spend time ganking again. Clearest example is the struggle that TOO had: instead of being able to focus on helping lanes while still keeping up on levels and gold (longer respawn timers and higher gains) he struggled with the balance between farming and ganking. I also consider the pre change jungle to be the best we ever saw. Games were much more dynamic BECAUSE jungles would clear, then have 30 seconds before a buff came up so they were free to go about the map and try to make things happen. It basically came back to Riot's seeming philosophy to make it impossible for anyone to actually die because then people might feel bad. On May 08 2012 05:16 Mogwai wrote:On May 08 2012 05:12 Eiii wrote:
Can you talk about what the negative consequences of the changes were? I didn't play jungle at all at the time, but a friend who played lee sin was really unhappy and felt that his ability to affect games went way down. tbh I didn't feel too sorry for him. eh, he's also wrong. lee actually benefited quite a bit from the remake IMO. Mobility went up a ton in jungle value and he's got that in spades. Yes and no IMO. He certainly benifited from the standpoint of the level 2 red gank, and the fact that mobility is key (as you noted) as well as the fact that he excells against low health champs (which made his counterjungle much more impressive because of the decreased leveling speed of the enemy jungle). Nunu's jungle also go murdered by it. However, LS REALLY loved the fact that he could easily gank and not have to worry about losing farm or exp because his camps hadn't respawned. It meant gank time was essentially free. Nobody got hurt by the jungle changes more than Fiddlesticks. He went from being banned in high level solo queue, to being a terrible pick.
Nunu's jungle also got murdered by it.
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sry for the double, browser fail.
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The only way to make more money on varus is to make him female.
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On May 08 2012 05:02 Eiii wrote:I just miss jungle akali 
Jungle Akali more viable than ever. With Spell Vamp quints you can even start with an Amp Tome.
Of course, more viable than ever is relative.
On May 08 2012 05:17 Two_DoWn wrote:
The biggest change was the speed at which you could garner exp and gold. Because camps were more concentrated, on longer respawns, it was much easier to go through phases where you would spend time ganking, then make a quick farm run, then spend time ganking again.
Clearest example is the struggle that TOO had: instead of being able to focus on helping lanes while still keeping up on levels and gold (longer respawn timers and higher gains) he struggled with the balance between farming and ganking.
I also consider the pre change jungle to be the best we ever saw. Games were much more dynamic BECAUSE jungles would clear, then have 30 seconds before a buff came up so they were free to go about the map and try to make things happen. It basically came back to Riot's seeming philosophy to make it impossible for anyone to actually die because then people might feel bad.
Games weren't more dynamic than they are now. The 30-40 second ganking window was predictable especially with CV being prolific and much more spammable. It was only because of junglers ignoring that window and ganking at unpredictable times (e.g. level 2 ganks) that games could be considered as dynamic as games are now.
The new jungle is not without flaw, junglers without cheap AoE damage are still disadvantaged, but too often I think we look at the old jungle through rose-colored glasses.
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On May 08 2012 05:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
I hate the jungle change because instead of letting more junglers become viable as was teh intention, it actually, imo, made less champs viable simply because certain champs/kits became so much better than others at jungling.
Eh, yes and no, IMO. I think there are more champions now that are capable of jungling, for sure. However, I think the change created this "elite class" of jungler that is able to clear so fast that they have time to gank without much of a trade-off, case in point being Mundo, Shyvana, etc. It's kinda funny -- these champions play closest to how the old jungle worked, in that after clearing out their side they've got enough time to head to a lane or counterjungle or whatever.
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On May 08 2012 05:44 rwrzr wrote:
The only way to make more money on varus is to make him female.
He's already pretty close. 
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I am always confused by hype. A friend of mine is going to get Varus on day one and this guy is a pretty meh ad player. He's not terrible, but he's just not that good and still he's overly excited about the prospect. Throne forbid you mention Pulsefire Ezreal to him, he'll go rabid with fanboyism.
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On May 08 2012 05:48 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:44 rwrzr wrote:
The only way to make more money on varus is to make him female. He's already pretty close.
I accidently mistook him for female based on his portrait art at PAX.
Yeah.
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I dont even remember what the old jungle was like before the remake, it was so long ago o:
I just remember the OP lvl2 ganks just from finishing double golems, also starting red first was very rare.(It used to be stronger?)
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On May 08 2012 05:45 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
I hate the jungle change because instead of letting more junglers become viable as was teh intention, it actually, imo, made less champs viable simply because certain champs/kits became so much better than others at jungling.
Eh, yes and no, IMO. I think there are more champions now that are capable of jungling, for sure. However, I think the change created this "elite class" of jungler that is able to clear so fast that they have time to gank without much of a trade-off, case in point being Mundo, Shyvana, etc. It's kinda funny -- these champions play closest to how the old jungle worked, in that after clearing out their side they've got enough time to head to a lane or counterjungle or whatever.
This is straight wrong. Every champion in the game could jungle in old jungle, it was just harder and/or you needed stronger leashes than in new jungle.
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to be honest it used to be a lot harder to keep you hp high in the jungle, the new jungle is too damn easy.
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On May 08 2012 06:11 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:45 Node wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
I hate the jungle change because instead of letting more junglers become viable as was teh intention, it actually, imo, made less champs viable simply because certain champs/kits became so much better than others at jungling.
Eh, yes and no, IMO. I think there are more champions now that are capable of jungling, for sure. However, I think the change created this "elite class" of jungler that is able to clear so fast that they have time to gank without much of a trade-off, case in point being Mundo, Shyvana, etc. It's kinda funny -- these champions play closest to how the old jungle worked, in that after clearing out their side they've got enough time to head to a lane or counterjungle or whatever. This is straight wrong. Every champion in the game could jungle in old jungle, it was just harder and/or you needed stronger leashes than in new jungle.
QFT, just watch old stonewall008 videos, clearing at 4-4:30 was common and hitting level 4. 3:45 or less clear times were considered super fast, and only a handful of junglers can do it like Udyr
Now in the new jungle, 3:30-3:45 is the average, 4:00+ is considered slow.
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On May 08 2012 05:45 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
I hate the jungle change because instead of letting more junglers become viable as was teh intention, it actually, imo, made less champs viable simply because certain champs/kits became so much better than others at jungling.
Eh, yes and no, IMO. I think there are more champions now that are capable of jungling, for sure. However, I think the change created this "elite class" of jungler that is able to clear so fast that they have time to gank without much of a trade-off, case in point being Mundo, Shyvana, etc. It's kinda funny -- these champions play closest to how the old jungle worked, in that after clearing out their side they've got enough time to head to a lane or counterjungle or whatever.
Almost every champ could jungle in old jungle. It was just a question of how viable/safe it was. Same deal with new jungle. The difference is that so many junglers that were top tier or viable in old jungle got ripped to shreds by remake simply because they can't keep up.
There is no jungler that is viable in new jungle that isn't viable in old jungle, whereas there are plenty of junglers viable in old jungle that simply can't be played in new jungle.
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On May 08 2012 06:15 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:45 Node wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
I hate the jungle change because instead of letting more junglers become viable as was teh intention, it actually, imo, made less champs viable simply because certain champs/kits became so much better than others at jungling.
Eh, yes and no, IMO. I think there are more champions now that are capable of jungling, for sure. However, I think the change created this "elite class" of jungler that is able to clear so fast that they have time to gank without much of a trade-off, case in point being Mundo, Shyvana, etc. It's kinda funny -- these champions play closest to how the old jungle worked, in that after clearing out their side they've got enough time to head to a lane or counterjungle or whatever. Almost every champ could jungle in old jungle. It was just a question of how viable/safe it was. Same deal with new jungle. The difference is that so many junglers that were top tier or viable in old jungle got ripped to shreds by remake simply because they can't keep up. There is no jungler that is viable in new jungle that isn't viable in old jungle, whereas there are plenty of junglers viable in old jungle that simply can't be played in new jungle.
could singed and karth jungle in the old jungle?
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On May 08 2012 06:19 jadoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:15 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:45 Node wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
I hate the jungle change because instead of letting more junglers become viable as was teh intention, it actually, imo, made less champs viable simply because certain champs/kits became so much better than others at jungling.
Eh, yes and no, IMO. I think there are more champions now that are capable of jungling, for sure. However, I think the change created this "elite class" of jungler that is able to clear so fast that they have time to gank without much of a trade-off, case in point being Mundo, Shyvana, etc. It's kinda funny -- these champions play closest to how the old jungle worked, in that after clearing out their side they've got enough time to head to a lane or counterjungle or whatever. Almost every champ could jungle in old jungle. It was just a question of how viable/safe it was. Same deal with new jungle. The difference is that so many junglers that were top tier or viable in old jungle got ripped to shreds by remake simply because they can't keep up. There is no jungler that is viable in new jungle that isn't viable in old jungle, whereas there are plenty of junglers viable in old jungle that simply can't be played in new jungle. could singed and karth jungle in the old jungle?
can still do it in the new jungle!
i think the main thing that hurt karthus jungle was the wall nerf...
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i like how in high elo no one blames or argues but then no one talks either period unless its joking around so we end up getting comps like poppy/kat/lee jungle vs jax/morg/amumu.
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More decisions = more chances for a good player to make a better decision than a worse player, showing that he is indeed better
New jungle has faster respawns so you have to make more decisions. There are also a ton more viable junglers than before, more decisions on who to pick. The jungle changes ended up being great because they created a larger gap between a skilled and non-skilled player, which is what all competitive changes should do
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old jungle was cool because the creeps were strong and got people low, so you could gank the jungler really well, lots of mindgames.
Now its just farming the camp for 3 seconds and look for ganks.
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On May 08 2012 06:19 jadoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:15 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 08 2012 05:45 Node wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 Ryuu314 wrote:
I hate the jungle change because instead of letting more junglers become viable as was teh intention, it actually, imo, made less champs viable simply because certain champs/kits became so much better than others at jungling.
Eh, yes and no, IMO. I think there are more champions now that are capable of jungling, for sure. However, I think the change created this "elite class" of jungler that is able to clear so fast that they have time to gank without much of a trade-off, case in point being Mundo, Shyvana, etc. It's kinda funny -- these champions play closest to how the old jungle worked, in that after clearing out their side they've got enough time to head to a lane or counterjungle or whatever. Almost every champ could jungle in old jungle. It was just a question of how viable/safe it was. Same deal with new jungle. The difference is that so many junglers that were top tier or viable in old jungle got ripped to shreds by remake simply because they can't keep up. There is no jungler that is viable in new jungle that isn't viable in old jungle, whereas there are plenty of junglers viable in old jungle that simply can't be played in new jungle. could singed and karth jungle in the old jungle?
No clue about singed, but Karth could definitely jungl ein old jungle. IIRC he had the fastest clear time in old jungle. He just wasnt used because it was very vulnerable to counterjungling just like it is now.On May 08 2012 06:34 deskscaress wrote:
More decisions = more chances for a good player to make a better decision than a worse player, showing that he is indeed better
New jungle has faster respawns so you have to make more decisions. There are also a ton more viable junglers than before, more decisions on who to pick. The jungle changes ended up being great because they created a larger gap between a skilled and non-skilled player, which is what all competitive changes should do
I disagree that you have to make more decisions in new jungle. Faster respawns =/= more decisions. If anything, slower respawns with camps that have higher rewards means that you have more decisions to make since counterjungling was much more debilitating in the old jungle.
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EPT
