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Holy shit, 25 minutes wait time on EUW? Do others have the same problem?
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On April 20 2012 03:23 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:20 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 03:15 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:11 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:59 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:51 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:37 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:17 Flicky wrote:
[quote]
I've also been told that it's to do with sustaining more with the 3% lifesteal mastery. Dat extra half a hit point in lifesteal REAL stroink. Lifesteal mastery is pretty much only good for stacking with other lifesteal. On its own its beyond terrible. That's a really stupid statement. You get the same benefit with 3%-->6% as with 12%-->15%. You just can't see the pretty green numbers with just 3% so you assume it's not there. It's like saying veteran scars is totally useless because it's only 80 hp it's only good if you stack it with other hp. It was more a statement that going for 15 ad because it make the 3% base lifesteal better is a pretty weak argument becuase the actual gain for doing it is negligible. And its really not all that stupid a statement: if you are not going to be getting any additional lifesteal you should probably look towards a different couple of points in the offense tree. 3% isnt enough to actually sustain you at any point in the game. Its like getting 3% crit and then never buying any more: sure it might help you, but its not actually going to enough to make the investment worthwhile in terms of what the stat actually SHOULD be used for. Alright. Let's say armour pen and ad averaged out over the whole game are exactly equal. That means ignore that one is better for first 5 minutes the next for the next 5 etc. That means getting more lifesteal is still SOMETHING. It has value. It's not that noticeable but it's still there. Last hitting is an even better argument because it's a solid gold value. Let's say you get 1.5% total damage from havoc or 3% lifesteal. EVERYONE takes 3 % lifesteal over havoc, right? But if you don't buy any lifesteal, then suddenly havoc is better? Bollocks. Lifesteal is always good. 3% isn't enough to sustain you? Sustain you through what? Sustain is sustain. If you run low on health you go back to base or buy more potions. Lots of people lane without any sustain. Some people have base sustain. It's 3% better than no sustain at all. Maybe it's as good as 10% if you have a couple of potions? What if every mastery was made 3x as good. 3% becomes 9%, suddenly it's a really good mastery? I don't understand. You're just being completely irrational on the basis that you don't really "feel" the 3% like you "feel" 12%. But if you were used to 48% you wouldn't "feel" 12% either. What? Sustain is only sustain if it actually sustains you. If it cant do that, then you are better off spending the points elsewhere. It isnt a matter of "feeling." 3 hp if you have 100 damage isnt going to do anything for you. You would have to hit 33 autos to regain the amount of health from a single shot if someone else hits you with 100 damage. The second point you bring up only REINFORCES what I am saying. If you are using pots to sustain yourself anyway, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU INVEST IN LIFESTEAL. It has an opportunity cost. There ARE other options. Numbers DO matter. Would you stop at 3% crit? Would you stop at 3% armor penetration? What's your tradeoff for 3% Lifesteal from masteries? Havoc, extra points in Butcher. Hell, if you are playing someone who isnt gonna be getting lifesteal, even Sorcery might be a good option. And how is 1.5% more damage better than 3% lifesteal? Because extra damage will always be able to do what it is intended to do. Lifesteal depends on the total amount that you have.
What?
Lifesteal always does what it is intended to do, it steals life. Extra damage always does what it is intended to do, extra damage.
Saying that 3% lifesteal is "not enough" but 1.5% more damage "is enough" without any reasoning is just... I don't even know what you're trying to argue. 1.5% will not magically help you kill anyone faster any more than 3% lifesteal will help you die slower.
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On April 20 2012 03:23 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:20 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 03:15 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:11 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:59 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:51 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:37 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:17 Flicky wrote:
[quote]
I've also been told that it's to do with sustaining more with the 3% lifesteal mastery. Dat extra half a hit point in lifesteal REAL stroink. Lifesteal mastery is pretty much only good for stacking with other lifesteal. On its own its beyond terrible. That's a really stupid statement. You get the same benefit with 3%-->6% as with 12%-->15%. You just can't see the pretty green numbers with just 3% so you assume it's not there. It's like saying veteran scars is totally useless because it's only 80 hp it's only good if you stack it with other hp. It was more a statement that going for 15 ad because it make the 3% base lifesteal better is a pretty weak argument becuase the actual gain for doing it is negligible. And its really not all that stupid a statement: if you are not going to be getting any additional lifesteal you should probably look towards a different couple of points in the offense tree. 3% isnt enough to actually sustain you at any point in the game. Its like getting 3% crit and then never buying any more: sure it might help you, but its not actually going to enough to make the investment worthwhile in terms of what the stat actually SHOULD be used for. Alright. Let's say armour pen and ad averaged out over the whole game are exactly equal. That means ignore that one is better for first 5 minutes the next for the next 5 etc. That means getting more lifesteal is still SOMETHING. It has value. It's not that noticeable but it's still there. Last hitting is an even better argument because it's a solid gold value. Let's say you get 1.5% total damage from havoc or 3% lifesteal. EVERYONE takes 3 % lifesteal over havoc, right? But if you don't buy any lifesteal, then suddenly havoc is better? Bollocks. Lifesteal is always good. 3% isn't enough to sustain you? Sustain you through what? Sustain is sustain. If you run low on health you go back to base or buy more potions. Lots of people lane without any sustain. Some people have base sustain. It's 3% better than no sustain at all. Maybe it's as good as 10% if you have a couple of potions? What if every mastery was made 3x as good. 3% becomes 9%, suddenly it's a really good mastery? I don't understand. You're just being completely irrational on the basis that you don't really "feel" the 3% like you "feel" 12%. But if you were used to 48% you wouldn't "feel" 12% either. What? Sustain is only sustain if it actually sustains you. If it cant do that, then you are better off spending the points elsewhere. It isnt a matter of "feeling." 3 hp if you have 100 damage isnt going to do anything for you. You would have to hit 33 autos to regain the amount of health from a single shot if someone else hits you with 100 damage. The second point you bring up only REINFORCES what I am saying. If you are using pots to sustain yourself anyway, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU INVEST IN LIFESTEAL. It has an opportunity cost. There ARE other options. Numbers DO matter. Would you stop at 3% crit? Would you stop at 3% armor penetration? What's your tradeoff for 3% Lifesteal from masteries? Havoc, extra points in Butcher. Hell, if you are playing someone who isnt gonna be getting lifesteal, even Sorcery might be a good option. And how is 1.5% more damage better than 3% lifesteal? Because extra damage will always be able to do what it is intended to do. Lifesteal depends on the total amount that you have.
I don't really know a response to this that is not an insult... Well... if you trade blows and you have 1.5% more damage while your enemy has 3% lifesteal, he will win the trade, you know?
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I think the point TD is trying to say is 3% lifesteal by itself has a negligible effect throughout the game.
But is a nice starting point when you plan on stacking lifesteal,
I think TD's point is invalid though. Because lets face it, most people who go down the offense mastery that deep end up getting lifesteal (whether through wriggles, BT, vamp scept, abilities, etc. etc.).
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On April 20 2012 03:29 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:23 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 03:20 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 03:15 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:11 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:59 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:51 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:37 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
[quote]
Dat extra half a hit point in lifesteal REAL stroink.
Lifesteal mastery is pretty much only good for stacking with other lifesteal. On its own its beyond terrible. That's a really stupid statement. You get the same benefit with 3%-->6% as with 12%-->15%. You just can't see the pretty green numbers with just 3% so you assume it's not there. It's like saying veteran scars is totally useless because it's only 80 hp it's only good if you stack it with other hp. It was more a statement that going for 15 ad because it make the 3% base lifesteal better is a pretty weak argument becuase the actual gain for doing it is negligible. And its really not all that stupid a statement: if you are not going to be getting any additional lifesteal you should probably look towards a different couple of points in the offense tree. 3% isnt enough to actually sustain you at any point in the game. Its like getting 3% crit and then never buying any more: sure it might help you, but its not actually going to enough to make the investment worthwhile in terms of what the stat actually SHOULD be used for. Alright. Let's say armour pen and ad averaged out over the whole game are exactly equal. That means ignore that one is better for first 5 minutes the next for the next 5 etc. That means getting more lifesteal is still SOMETHING. It has value. It's not that noticeable but it's still there. Last hitting is an even better argument because it's a solid gold value. Let's say you get 1.5% total damage from havoc or 3% lifesteal. EVERYONE takes 3 % lifesteal over havoc, right? But if you don't buy any lifesteal, then suddenly havoc is better? Bollocks. Lifesteal is always good. 3% isn't enough to sustain you? Sustain you through what? Sustain is sustain. If you run low on health you go back to base or buy more potions. Lots of people lane without any sustain. Some people have base sustain. It's 3% better than no sustain at all. Maybe it's as good as 10% if you have a couple of potions? What if every mastery was made 3x as good. 3% becomes 9%, suddenly it's a really good mastery? I don't understand. You're just being completely irrational on the basis that you don't really "feel" the 3% like you "feel" 12%. But if you were used to 48% you wouldn't "feel" 12% either. What? Sustain is only sustain if it actually sustains you. If it cant do that, then you are better off spending the points elsewhere. It isnt a matter of "feeling." 3 hp if you have 100 damage isnt going to do anything for you. You would have to hit 33 autos to regain the amount of health from a single shot if someone else hits you with 100 damage. The second point you bring up only REINFORCES what I am saying. If you are using pots to sustain yourself anyway, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU INVEST IN LIFESTEAL. It has an opportunity cost. There ARE other options. Numbers DO matter. Would you stop at 3% crit? Would you stop at 3% armor penetration? What's your tradeoff for 3% Lifesteal from masteries? Havoc, extra points in Butcher. Hell, if you are playing someone who isnt gonna be getting lifesteal, even Sorcery might be a good option. And how is 1.5% more damage better than 3% lifesteal? Because extra damage will always be able to do what it is intended to do. Lifesteal depends on the total amount that you have. I don't really know a response to this that is not an insult... Well... if you trade blows and you have 1.5% more damage while your enemy has 3% lifesteal, he will win the trade, you know?
Exactly, and the only difference regarding crit is that it isn't a deterministic on-hit property, but 3% crit will over the long run help you win trades more than 1.5% extra damage, if that were a trade-off you had to make, even if you build 0% crit from items.
I can absolutely understand not going for 3% crit because you may not want to rely on the RNG. I don't understand the claim that 3% is somehow worse if you don't build more crit. (It's worse if you don't build IEdge compared to if you do, but that's unrelated.)
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On April 20 2012 03:30 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the point TD is trying to say is 3% lifesteal by itself has a negligible effect throughout the game.
But is a nice starting point when you plan on stacking lifesteal,
I think TD's point is invalid though. Because lets face it, most people who go down the offense mastery that deep end up getting lifesteal (whether through wriggles, BT, vamp scept, abilities, etc. etc.).
But most single mastery points have a negligible effect throughout the game. 3% additional lifesteal is just as negligible regardless of whether you have 0% or 12% or 50%. Havoc points are even more negligible than vampirism.
There is no binary point where additional lifesteal suddenly becomes good, there's no reason to stop at one instead of two bloodthirsters as far as lifesteal falling off is concerned.
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On April 20 2012 03:29 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:23 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 03:20 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:17 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 03:15 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 03:11 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:59 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:51 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 02:37 Slayer91 wrote:On April 20 2012 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
[quote]
Dat extra half a hit point in lifesteal REAL stroink.
Lifesteal mastery is pretty much only good for stacking with other lifesteal. On its own its beyond terrible. That's a really stupid statement. You get the same benefit with 3%-->6% as with 12%-->15%. You just can't see the pretty green numbers with just 3% so you assume it's not there. It's like saying veteran scars is totally useless because it's only 80 hp it's only good if you stack it with other hp. It was more a statement that going for 15 ad because it make the 3% base lifesteal better is a pretty weak argument becuase the actual gain for doing it is negligible. And its really not all that stupid a statement: if you are not going to be getting any additional lifesteal you should probably look towards a different couple of points in the offense tree. 3% isnt enough to actually sustain you at any point in the game. Its like getting 3% crit and then never buying any more: sure it might help you, but its not actually going to enough to make the investment worthwhile in terms of what the stat actually SHOULD be used for. Alright. Let's say armour pen and ad averaged out over the whole game are exactly equal. That means ignore that one is better for first 5 minutes the next for the next 5 etc. That means getting more lifesteal is still SOMETHING. It has value. It's not that noticeable but it's still there. Last hitting is an even better argument because it's a solid gold value. Let's say you get 1.5% total damage from havoc or 3% lifesteal. EVERYONE takes 3 % lifesteal over havoc, right? But if you don't buy any lifesteal, then suddenly havoc is better? Bollocks. Lifesteal is always good. 3% isn't enough to sustain you? Sustain you through what? Sustain is sustain. If you run low on health you go back to base or buy more potions. Lots of people lane without any sustain. Some people have base sustain. It's 3% better than no sustain at all. Maybe it's as good as 10% if you have a couple of potions? What if every mastery was made 3x as good. 3% becomes 9%, suddenly it's a really good mastery? I don't understand. You're just being completely irrational on the basis that you don't really "feel" the 3% like you "feel" 12%. But if you were used to 48% you wouldn't "feel" 12% either. What? Sustain is only sustain if it actually sustains you. If it cant do that, then you are better off spending the points elsewhere. It isnt a matter of "feeling." 3 hp if you have 100 damage isnt going to do anything for you. You would have to hit 33 autos to regain the amount of health from a single shot if someone else hits you with 100 damage. The second point you bring up only REINFORCES what I am saying. If you are using pots to sustain yourself anyway, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU INVEST IN LIFESTEAL. It has an opportunity cost. There ARE other options. Numbers DO matter. Would you stop at 3% crit? Would you stop at 3% armor penetration? What's your tradeoff for 3% Lifesteal from masteries? Havoc, extra points in Butcher. Hell, if you are playing someone who isnt gonna be getting lifesteal, even Sorcery might be a good option. And how is 1.5% more damage better than 3% lifesteal? Because extra damage will always be able to do what it is intended to do. Lifesteal depends on the total amount that you have. I don't really know a response to this that is not an insult... Well... if you trade blows and you have 1.5% more damage while your enemy has 3% lifesteal, he will win the trade, you know?
Which is why most ad carries or bruisers get lifesteal from items, in which case I said that you SHOULD go vamp.
I am looking at the case where you have someone like Skarner going the dual gp10 build. Or if you decide to go 21 offense on garen.
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Life steal mastrery is better because in addition to the vamp scepter and a pair of dorans that ad's usually get stacks up to a nice amount of life leech.
Where as 1.5% damage is just pathetic.It's not even worth taking it on spell caster that nukes people for 1 k damage because it gives you a whooping 15 extra damage.I'd rather put 2 points in butcher for easier last hitting on aps than in havoc personally.
That's what I do actually.
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Rarely is there ever a situation in which 1v1's like that happen. Usually ends up AD carries hitting highest dmging target without getting caught, so usually its AD carries first targets are bruisers. it's a bit idealistic to talk about 1v1, w/ 1.5% dmg increase vs 3% lifesteal, competing.
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On April 20 2012 03:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Which is why most ad carries or bruisers get lifesteal from items, in which case I said that you SHOULD go vamp.
I am looking at the case where you have someone like Skarner going the dual gp10 build. Or if you decide to go 21 offense on garen.
The point is that it doesn't matter whether you get lifesteal from items or not?
3% lifesteal helps you win the trade against 1.5% extra damage REGARDLESS of whether you build lifesteal or damage items.
Ad carries also build damage, that doesn't magically make havoc a better mastery...
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On April 20 2012 03:37 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Which is why most ad carries or bruisers get lifesteal from items, in which case I said that you SHOULD go vamp.
I am looking at the case where you have someone like Skarner going the dual gp10 build. Or if you decide to go 21 offense on garen. The point is that it doesn't matter whether you get lifesteal from items or not? 3% lifesteal helps you win the trade against 1.5% extra damage REGARDLESS of whether you build lifesteal or damage items. Ad carries also build damage, that doesn't magically make havoc a better mastery...
How does 3% lifesteal help you if you arent killing people with autoattacks...
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On April 20 2012 03:33 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:30 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the point TD is trying to say is 3% lifesteal by itself has a negligible effect throughout the game.
But is a nice starting point when you plan on stacking lifesteal,
I think TD's point is invalid though. Because lets face it, most people who go down the offense mastery that deep end up getting lifesteal (whether through wriggles, BT, vamp scept, abilities, etc. etc.). But most single mastery points have a negligible effect throughout the game. 3% additional lifesteal is just as negligible regardless of whether you have 0% or 12% or 50%. Havoc points are even more negligible than vampirism. There is no binary point where additional lifesteal suddenly becomes good, there's no reason to stop at one instead of two bloodthirsters as far as lifesteal falling off is concerned.
The difference is 0->3% plays a completely different role than 12%->15% lifesteal.
And BT is an ineffective evidence. First BT is usually gotten for sustain, 2nd one is usually gotten for the AD.
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TD, who the fuck plays garen anymore >.>
And everyone knows, 0/21/9 skarner ftw.
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I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
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On April 20 2012 03:04 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:00 HazMat wrote:
What are some mastery points that are complete trash? I wasn't around when the new masteries came out so I missed out a lot of the mathcrafting. I'm pretty sure I get 1 or 2 mastery points which are terrible and I don't even know it. Demolitionist, Honor Guard, Evasion, Vigor, Siege Commander, Mercenary, Bladed Armor, Scout, Sage
Oh snap I don't use any of those. How am I so smart.
I use Mercenary on kat though, get @ me.
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T_D: Obviously I'm assuming we're talking about an ad champ using auto attacks for damage in this discussion. Yeah, you shouldn't take vampirism if you're the AP carry. That's not what the conversation was about anyway.
On April 20 2012 03:40 Juicyfruit wrote:
I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
The likelihood of you surviving an additional autoattack and winning a battle (for that reason) due to an added 3% lifesteal is, in general, larger than the likelihood of you killing your opponent by requiring one autoattack less and winning a battle (for that reason) given 1.5% damage increase.
0->3% is not less helpful for sustain than 12->15% is. 3% is not much either way, just like 0->3% crit is not "more damage" than 50->53% crit.
Sure, you don't rely on lifesteal for sustain if you're not building lifesteal items. That doesn't mean it doesn't help you.
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On April 20 2012 03:30 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the point TD is trying to say is 3% lifesteal by itself has a negligible effect throughout the game.
But is a nice starting point when you plan on stacking lifesteal,
I think TD's point is invalid though. Because lets face it, most people who go down the offense mastery that deep end up getting lifesteal (whether through wriggles, BT, vamp scept, abilities, etc. etc.).
Any one mastery has a negligible effect on the game. I have a question here, on havoc, it says it increases damage dealt by 1.5%. Does this only mean attack damage, or all damage? Because if it is all damage, this makes it much better, and also changes those "3% lifesteal wins against 1.5% damage" in earlier game situations where more damage comes from spells, even on ADs.
Nonetheless, the argument of "3% lifesteal does not sustain you" is bad. Of course it does not sustain you in lane all on its own. And obviously, 12% lifesteal is better then 3%. However, 3% lifesteal does exactly what it is supposed to do, it gives you additional life. And it will allow you to stay in lane longer then without it. Being in lane for a longer time is generally a good thing. If you do 50 attacks while not at full health during the early laning phase, which is very well possible, you suddenly have 150 more health. And you won't find any 3 mastery points anywhere in the tree which allow you to sustain your lane all on their own, so that is not really a fair comparison.
Each point of lifesteal also does not get better the more of it you have, on the contrary. Generally any stat will become worth less point for point the more of it you have in comparision to other stats, since they make others be worth more. If you have more crit, ad becomes better in comparision to more crit, same with attack speed. This applies similarly to lifesteal. If you have some lifesteal, each point of AD that you gain not only increases the damage you deal, but it also allows you to leech more life. This means that in comparision, AD suddenly became worth more then before.And since all values are only relevant relative to each other, this means that lifesteal became worth less then before.
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On April 20 2012 03:04 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:00 HazMat wrote:
What are some mastery points that are complete trash? I wasn't around when the new masteries came out so I missed out a lot of the mathcrafting. I'm pretty sure I get 1 or 2 mastery points which are terrible and I don't even know it. Demolitionist, Honor Guard, Evasion, Vigor, Siege Commander, Mercenary, Bladed Armor, Scout, Sage
Is Scout bad on support ? I always take it ><
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On April 20 2012 03:46 Lylat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:04 Mogwai wrote:On April 20 2012 03:00 HazMat wrote:
What are some mastery points that are complete trash? I wasn't around when the new masteries came out so I missed out a lot of the mathcrafting. I'm pretty sure I get 1 or 2 mastery points which are terrible and I don't even know it. Demolitionist, Honor Guard, Evasion, Vigor, Siege Commander, Mercenary, Bladed Armor, Scout, Sage Is Scout bad on support ? I always take it ><
idk, maybe you have a gosu ward spot that actually can use Scout but I dout it.
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On April 20 2012 03:46 Lylat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:04 Mogwai wrote:On April 20 2012 03:00 HazMat wrote:
What are some mastery points that are complete trash? I wasn't around when the new masteries came out so I missed out a lot of the mathcrafting. I'm pretty sure I get 1 or 2 mastery points which are terrible and I don't even know it. Demolitionist, Honor Guard, Evasion, Vigor, Siege Commander, Mercenary, Bladed Armor, Scout, Sage Is Scout bad on support ? I always take it ><
There's no spot on the map where the extra 5% vision will help your ward cover an extra path that it wouldn't already, so it's pretty much complete trash.
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EPT
