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On April 20 2012 03:45 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:30 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the point TD is trying to say is 3% lifesteal by itself has a negligible effect throughout the game.
But is a nice starting point when you plan on stacking lifesteal,
I think TD's point is invalid though. Because lets face it, most people who go down the offense mastery that deep end up getting lifesteal (whether through wriggles, BT, vamp scept, abilities, etc. etc.). Any one mastery has a negligible effect on the game. I have a question here, on havoc, it says it increases damage dealt by 1.5%. Does this only mean attack damage, or all damage? Because if it is all damage, this makes it much better, and also changes those "3% lifesteal wins against 1.5% damage" in earlier game situations where more damage comes from spells, even on ADs.
Yea it's all damage and no it still sucks.As I said your much better off getting 2 points into butcher and walk away with 10-20 more last hits in lane than doing 6 extra damage on a 400 damage nuke.The % on Havoc is just laughable imo.
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Edit: Re: Scout*
It's not worthless. It's just that 99+1/100 times it is worthless, since you can cover all the choke points you need to without it.
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On April 20 2012 03:45 bmn wrote:T_D: Obviously I'm assuming we're talking about an ad champ using auto attacks for damage in this discussion. Yeah, you shouldn't take vampirism if you're the AP carry. That's not what the conversation was about anyway. Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:40 Juicyfruit wrote:
I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
The likelihood of you surviving an additional autoattack and winning a battle (for that reason) due to an added 3% lifesteal is, in general, larger than the likelihood of you killing your opponent by requiring one autoattack less and winning a battle (for that reason) given 1.5% damage increase. 0->3% is not less helpful for sustain than 12->15% is. 3% is not much either way, just like 0->3% crit is not "more damage" than 50->53% crit. Sure, you don't rely on lifesteal for sustain if you're not building lifesteal items. That doesn't mean it doesn't help you.
Is this where I slam my head on the fucking desk and point out that I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT CHARACTERS THAT DONT DEPEND ON AUTOATTACKS?
Like Renek, Pantheon, ect?
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Would you get 2AP/AD over Havok?
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3% lifesteal is worth it on Pantheon, Renek, and Garen. at least IMO.
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On April 20 2012 03:50 HazMat wrote:
Would you get 2AP/AD over Havok?
AD yes, AP no.
And the only reason there would ever be to get scout would be if it caused a ward placed into the tribush too see into the river so you can cover both gank paths with a single ward.
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Alright I changed my AP mastery page to 2 in butcher. It'll help me cs with Anivia l0l0l
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On April 20 2012 03:46 Lylat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:04 Mogwai wrote:On April 20 2012 03:00 HazMat wrote:
What are some mastery points that are complete trash? I wasn't around when the new masteries came out so I missed out a lot of the mathcrafting. I'm pretty sure I get 1 or 2 mastery points which are terrible and I don't even know it. Demolitionist, Honor Guard, Evasion, Vigor, Siege Commander, Mercenary, Bladed Armor, Scout, Sage Is Scout bad on support ? I always take it ><
Scout is pretty worthless, ward radius covers important entrances completely if you place them correctly.
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On April 20 2012 03:50 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:45 bmn wrote:T_D: Obviously I'm assuming we're talking about an ad champ using auto attacks for damage in this discussion. Yeah, you shouldn't take vampirism if you're the AP carry. That's not what the conversation was about anyway. On April 20 2012 03:40 Juicyfruit wrote:
I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
The likelihood of you surviving an additional autoattack and winning a battle (for that reason) due to an added 3% lifesteal is, in general, larger than the likelihood of you killing your opponent by requiring one autoattack less and winning a battle (for that reason) given 1.5% damage increase. 0->3% is not less helpful for sustain than 12->15% is. 3% is not much either way, just like 0->3% crit is not "more damage" than 50->53% crit. Sure, you don't rely on lifesteal for sustain if you're not building lifesteal items. That doesn't mean it doesn't help you. Is this where I slam my head on the fucking desk and point out that I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT CHARACTERS THAT DONT DEPEND ON AUTOATTACKS? Like Renek, Pantheon, ect?
Fine, I was too restrictive: They don't have to depend on autoattacks, just anything that procs lifesteal. Happy now?
Also, is this where I point out that you didn't clarify that whenever you stated things like
Because extra damage will always be able to do what it is intended to do. Lifesteal depends on the total amount that you have
or
It was more a statement that going for 15 ad because it make the 3% base lifesteal better is a pretty weak argument becuase the actual gain for doing it is negligible.
or basically anything you said in the posts since, where it was never made clear that you were talking about specific characters like Renek and Panth?
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I assumed it was fairly obvious I wasnt talking about heavy autoattack champions because all of them get some form of lifesteal and depend on it as one of their main sources of sustain.
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On April 20 2012 03:50 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:45 bmn wrote:T_D: Obviously I'm assuming we're talking about an ad champ using auto attacks for damage in this discussion. Yeah, you shouldn't take vampirism if you're the AP carry. That's not what the conversation was about anyway. On April 20 2012 03:40 Juicyfruit wrote:
I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
The likelihood of you surviving an additional autoattack and winning a battle (for that reason) due to an added 3% lifesteal is, in general, larger than the likelihood of you killing your opponent by requiring one autoattack less and winning a battle (for that reason) given 1.5% damage increase. 0->3% is not less helpful for sustain than 12->15% is. 3% is not much either way, just like 0->3% crit is not "more damage" than 50->53% crit. Sure, you don't rely on lifesteal for sustain if you're not building lifesteal items. That doesn't mean it doesn't help you. Is this where I slam my head on the fucking desk and point out that I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT CHARACTERS THAT DONT DEPEND ON AUTOATTACKS? Like Renek, Pantheon, ect?
dunno about renek, but lifesteal is pretty useful on panth early on. You do a shitton of autoattacking in lane, that is if you don't want to go oom, and the fact that you can quite often start dblade helps alot. Same with garen too afaik.
edit: same with garen as in autoattacking happens quite a bit in lane, not that he runs oom 
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On April 20 2012 03:53 HazMat wrote:
Alright I changed my AP mastery page to 2 in butcher. It'll help me cs with Anivia l0l0l
It actually will.It's so much better trust me.People have this notion that you are supposed to last hit perfect without runes and masterys helping you but that's bullshit,other wise everyone would be walking around with 190-200 cs by 20 mins which never happens.Half of the masterys are completely useless late game,only the bottom ones are noticeable so your much better off maximizing your early game in general as well as csing than wasting points into trash masterys like Havoc which sound good but once you do the math they are pathetic.
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The only use I have found for Scout is for counter-pink warding. That's about it.
Also, the AD mastery is better than AP mastery in Tier 1 Offense on AP Champs imo because it helps with last hitting while 4 AP is not going to make or break anything. If you get an auto on them, you've already made up for the 4AP*0.7 ratio anyway.
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On April 20 2012 03:58 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:50 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 20 2012 03:45 bmn wrote:T_D: Obviously I'm assuming we're talking about an ad champ using auto attacks for damage in this discussion. Yeah, you shouldn't take vampirism if you're the AP carry. That's not what the conversation was about anyway. On April 20 2012 03:40 Juicyfruit wrote:
I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
The likelihood of you surviving an additional autoattack and winning a battle (for that reason) due to an added 3% lifesteal is, in general, larger than the likelihood of you killing your opponent by requiring one autoattack less and winning a battle (for that reason) given 1.5% damage increase. 0->3% is not less helpful for sustain than 12->15% is. 3% is not much either way, just like 0->3% crit is not "more damage" than 50->53% crit. Sure, you don't rely on lifesteal for sustain if you're not building lifesteal items. That doesn't mean it doesn't help you. Is this where I slam my head on the fucking desk and point out that I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT CHARACTERS THAT DONT DEPEND ON AUTOATTACKS? Like Renek, Pantheon, ect? dunno about renek, but lifesteal is pretty useful on panth early on. You do a shitton of autoattacking in lane, that is if you don't want to go oom, and the fact that you can quite often start dblade helps alot. Same with garen too afaik. edit: same with garen as in autoattacking happens quite a bit in lane, not that he runs oom
I dunno. I tend to run oom with garen as soon as the game starts. Luckily it never seems to matter.
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I get scout as support vs. shaco >.>
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On April 20 2012 03:45 bmn wrote:T_D: Obviously I'm assuming we're talking about an ad champ using auto attacks for damage in this discussion. Yeah, you shouldn't take vampirism if you're the AP carry. That's not what the conversation was about anyway. Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:40 Juicyfruit wrote:
I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
The likelihood of you surviving an additional autoattack and winning a battle (for that reason) due to an added 3% lifesteal is, in general, larger than the likelihood of you killing your opponent by requiring one autoattack less and winning a battle (for that reason) given 1.5% damage increase. 0->3% is not less helpful for sustain than 12->15% is. 3% is not much either way, just like 0->3% crit is not "more damage" than 50->53% crit. Sure, you don't rely on lifesteal for sustain if you're not building lifesteal items. That doesn't mean it doesn't help you.
You're missing the point though. I think most people agree 3% lifesteal is better than 1.5% extra damage, BUT it's wrong to say that 0 > 3% lifesteal is the equivalent of 12->15% lifesteal. It's not.
Think of it as a balance of damage you take vs how much you lifesteal back. The closer your sustain gets to the amount of damage you take, the more meaningful it is.
Let me give you an example.
If you take 100 damage and you lifesteal back 0% of it, you take 100 damage
If you take 100 damage and you lifesteal back 3% of it, you take 97 net damage
Conversely
If you take 100 damage and you lifesteal back 96% of it, you take 4 damage
If you take 100 damage and you lifesteal back 99% of it, you take 1 damage.
In the second case, the 3% extra lifesteal effectively reduced the amount of damage you take 4-folds.
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It would be better if it increased ward duration an extra 30 seconds. Then it might actually be worth getting.
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On April 20 2012 03:56 Two_DoWn wrote:
I assumed it was fairly obvious I wasnt talking about heavy autoattack champions because all of them get some form of lifesteal and depend on it as one of their main sources of sustain.
Yes, 3% lifesteal is not useful if you're playing a character that doesn't proc lifesteal much.
I thought the conversation was about whether 3% lifesteal is made any better by getting additional lifesteal from items.
Edit: Yeah, Juicyfruit, you're right that the relative amount of damage you sustain in a trade isn't linear in lifesteal, but that's a different variable from the amount of life you gain back.
You can also argue the same for damage done: If your opponent has 99% lifesteal and the same base damage as you, your 1.5% increase in damage will suddenly greatly multiply the effective amount of damage you do in trades. The amount of additional damage you do is still linear regardless of how many other %increase damage items you have, though.
If that was the only point being disputed, I'm happy to agree with what you're saying.
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On April 20 2012 03:50 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 03:45 bmn wrote:T_D: Obviously I'm assuming we're talking about an ad champ using auto attacks for damage in this discussion. Yeah, you shouldn't take vampirism if you're the AP carry. That's not what the conversation was about anyway. On April 20 2012 03:40 Juicyfruit wrote:
I feel like as shitty as 3% lifesteal is, it's still going to be better than 1.5% extra damage because fuck doing an extra 15 damage per 1000.
That said, TD's argument boils down to this: lifesteal in general is a pretty shitty form of sustain that only becomes relevant when the amount of lifesteal gets close to the amount of damage you are receiving. The closer to the "break even point", the more important small % of lifesteal becomes, which means that in some way, the effectiveness of 3% lifesteal does depend on how much sustain you already have (but also your AD, your armor/MR and your HP/5 etc).
The likelihood of you surviving an additional autoattack and winning a battle (for that reason) due to an added 3% lifesteal is, in general, larger than the likelihood of you killing your opponent by requiring one autoattack less and winning a battle (for that reason) given 1.5% damage increase. 0->3% is not less helpful for sustain than 12->15% is. 3% is not much either way, just like 0->3% crit is not "more damage" than 50->53% crit. Sure, you don't rely on lifesteal for sustain if you're not building lifesteal items. That doesn't mean it doesn't help you. Is this where I slam my head on the fucking desk and point out that I WAS FUCKING TALKING ABOUT CHARACTERS THAT DONT DEPEND ON AUTOATTACKS? Like Renek, Pantheon, ect?
On April 20 2012 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 02:17 Flicky wrote:On April 20 2012 01:44 Raynian wrote:On April 20 2012 01:24 Haemonculus wrote:
I've seen a lot of folks start totally forgoing armor pen runes in favor of AD runes. Why the change in attitude? I understand that for champs with solid AD ratios on spells it can be nice, but I always thought it was pretty proven that early game armor pen is significantly better than AD. And +15 AD late game is probably nothing compared to 25 armor pen.
On that topic, what're folks running on Trondamere these days? AD or arpen? I've always assloads of arpen, armor yellows, and scalin' mres blues. Two reasons, mostly. It makes it easier to last hit, and a good early game scales into a better late game. Also, the new masteries let you get 10% and 6 flat arpen. Someone crunched the math somewhere, and found out that arpen and flat AD runes are roughly equal now if you go 21 offense. I've also been told that it's to do with sustaining more with the 3% lifesteal mastery. Dat extra half a hit point in lifesteal REAL stroink. Lifesteal mastery is pretty much only good for stacking with other lifesteal. On its own its beyond terrible.
Is that your way of saying "Lifesteal mastery is pretty much only good for people who autoattack a lot."?
Because if you had stated it that way, it would actually make sense. The way you said it doesn't make sense.
I already mentioned that +3% lifesteal doesn't magically become better when you have 50% lifesteal to begin with. Unless you take that as a guarantee that the character which has 50% lifesteal also autoattacks a lot, while a character with 0% lifesteal is guaranteed not to autoattack a lot.
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