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On April 20 2012 04:34 BlasiuS wrote:
Actually, I think for most AD carries that rely on autoattacks, Havoc is probably better.
most auto-AD carries get 2 doran's blade, and usually a BT as their 4th or 5th item. That's 18% lifesteal right there, + more once you start stacking your BT. The difference between 18% and 21% doesn't mean much. If you were trading 1v1 with another AD carry that had less lifesteal than you, well in that specific case it would mean the difference between getting a kill and dying. However that rarely happens in late-game. Also, 18%-20% is plenty of lifesteal to fill up your health bar on minions/monsters.
Now, with havoc, you are doing an additional damage every hit. It may not seem like much at first, but remember that AD carries build AD, AS, and crit. With IE and PD, you are critting over half of your attacks, and doing 250% damage per crit. My typical Kog build does ~880 damage per crit without using Havoc. Havoc would add another 13 damage per hit. But factoring in AS, most champs are around 1.5 attacks per second, so that's about 18-20 extra dps. I'd rather have that than an extra 3% lifesteal when i already have almost 20% lifesteal.
Not every AD carry builds the same, but those are some good baseline stats using common items like IE, BT, doran's blades.
You also gain more lifesteal as you gain more damage. This includes crits.
I'm not sure why you'd rather have 20 DPS when you already have 1333 DPS (yes, that's the DPS you need for 3/3 Havoc to add 20 DPS) than 40 HP/s when you already have 267 HP/s.
At best it's situational, but just looking at the numbers, lifesteal wins.
3% lifesteal has a bigger chance of being the deciding factor in anything than 1.5% more damage has.
Runes/Masteries also mostly matter for earlygame, and earlygame will always be trades, not attacking without taking damage. Plus lifesteal allows you to heal up a tiny amount on minions.
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On April 20 2012 04:40 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 04:39 cLutZ wrote:On April 20 2012 04:34 Mogwai wrote:On April 20 2012 04:33 Eiii wrote:
Solo lane lulu is super legit if they know what they're doing, though :s
100% of the games I've been in with solo lulu have resulted in a win for lulu's team. Her ult, man... I on the other hand have never won with solo lulu on my team. Its a mixed bag. Ive seen it like 5x, and three of them the lulu was totally underfarmed and couldnt do crap. The other two, she got some kills, and denied farm completely. As an aside, SoloQ jungle, is there a more frustrating role? TheOddOne loses more in soloQ than the rest of TSM together it seems. the problem with TOO is that he listens to his teammates in solo q
Precisely. Saint does the exact opposite and carries most games. Maybe not working so well for him in tournaments right now, but that could also be more of a team issue than his attitude.
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EDIT: man I really should have quoted huh
I agree that it's situational, but that's about it :x Doing the most damage isn't always accomplished by increasing your AD!
Ideally, yes, you'll be the perfect AD carry who never gets touched and it always protected by your team and you just get to stand in the back and autoattack everything and win. Realistically, people are going to want to kill you-- and sometimes, they'll succeed!
So if you're trying to do the most *damage* in that case, then you can take the extra 20dps and do some more damage. But if you take the defensive route and live long enough to get even one extra autoattack in-- that's an extra 350 damage right there! It would take about 17 seconds *straight* of autoattacking with the extra 1.5% to even break even with that one autoattack.
Yeah, that's not always going to be the case. I would argue that if you're not in a pressured position, you really *don't* need to be squeezing every tiny bit of efficiency out of your damage output. When you're getting attacked, killed, jumped on, whatever-- *that's* when you need to be as efficient as possible so you get as much out of your life in that teamfight as you can.
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Anyone try Hecarim in solo top yet?
I've done a few games in the jungle. First game I went Wriggle's and felt really useless. The other games I go Philo into Phage into Aegis and it feels decent enough. You can stay in fights for a long time with your W. Rushing Triforce seems to give good damage because he needs some attack speed and makes good use of the Sheen proc since he's spamming Q.
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Heres my question: Why is Mental Force so crappy compared to Brute Force?
1AP is terrible compared to 1AD, as the former has to go through crappy ratios and then is only applied every long ass CD and usually costs mana to use.
In an average skirmish the 3 ad from Brute Force could easily result in ~30 extra damage, whereas 3 AP will be worth probably less than 6.
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On April 20 2012 05:00 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 04:34 BlasiuS wrote:
Actually, I think for most AD carries that rely on autoattacks, Havoc is probably better.
most auto-AD carries get 2 doran's blade, and usually a BT as their 4th or 5th item. That's 18% lifesteal right there, + more once you start stacking your BT. The difference between 18% and 21% doesn't mean much. If you were trading 1v1 with another AD carry that had less lifesteal than you, well in that specific case it would mean the difference between getting a kill and dying. However that rarely happens in late-game. Also, 18%-20% is plenty of lifesteal to fill up your health bar on minions/monsters.
Now, with havoc, you are doing an additional damage every hit. It may not seem like much at first, but remember that AD carries build AD, AS, and crit. With IE and PD, you are critting over half of your attacks, and doing 250% damage per crit. My typical Kog build does ~880 damage per crit without using Havoc. Havoc would add another 13 damage per hit. But factoring in AS, most champs are around 1.5 attacks per second, so that's about 18-20 extra dps. I'd rather have that than an extra 3% lifesteal when i already have almost 20% lifesteal.
Not every AD carry builds the same, but those are some good baseline stats using common items like IE, BT, doran's blades. You also gain more lifesteal as you gain more damage. This includes crits. I'm not sure why you'd rather have 20 DPS when you already have 1333 DPS (yes, that's the DPS you need for 3/3 Havoc to add 20 DPS) than 40 HP/s when you already have 267 HP/s. At best it's situational, but just looking at the numbers, lifesteal wins. 3% lifesteal has a bigger chance of being the deciding factor in anything than 1.5% more damage has. Runes/Masteries also mostly matter for earlygame, and earlygame will always be trades, not attacking without taking damage. Plus lifesteal allows you to heal up a tiny amount on minions.
For most champs yes. For AD carries no. You already have plenty of lifesteal. If an AD carry gets caught, they're pretty much going to die regardless of how much lifesteal they have. 18-20% lifesteal is plenty enough to heal up after a fight. I'd rather have more dps than more health regen because....I'm an AD carry and I want the most DPS possible, and I already have plenty of lifesteal.
As for your 2nd point, if you're arguing that lifesteal is better than Havoc early-game then yes that's debatable. But, it's really only an issue before you get your first doran's blade; having life steal is obviously better than having absolutely no lifesteal, but having an extra 3% when you already have it is negligible early-game (when your AD is so low), and negligible late-game (since you already have tons of lifesteal from Doran's/BT). The only time I really see Life Steal being better than Havoc is after you have IE, and before your have BT, since at that point in the game you have only a small amount of life-steal (6% if you got 2 doran's) but you'll be doing lots of damage.
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On April 20 2012 05:14 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 05:00 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 04:34 BlasiuS wrote:
Actually, I think for most AD carries that rely on autoattacks, Havoc is probably better.
most auto-AD carries get 2 doran's blade, and usually a BT as their 4th or 5th item. That's 18% lifesteal right there, + more once you start stacking your BT. The difference between 18% and 21% doesn't mean much. If you were trading 1v1 with another AD carry that had less lifesteal than you, well in that specific case it would mean the difference between getting a kill and dying. However that rarely happens in late-game. Also, 18%-20% is plenty of lifesteal to fill up your health bar on minions/monsters.
Now, with havoc, you are doing an additional damage every hit. It may not seem like much at first, but remember that AD carries build AD, AS, and crit. With IE and PD, you are critting over half of your attacks, and doing 250% damage per crit. My typical Kog build does ~880 damage per crit without using Havoc. Havoc would add another 13 damage per hit. But factoring in AS, most champs are around 1.5 attacks per second, so that's about 18-20 extra dps. I'd rather have that than an extra 3% lifesteal when i already have almost 20% lifesteal.
Not every AD carry builds the same, but those are some good baseline stats using common items like IE, BT, doran's blades. You also gain more lifesteal as you gain more damage. This includes crits. I'm not sure why you'd rather have 20 DPS when you already have 1333 DPS (yes, that's the DPS you need for 3/3 Havoc to add 20 DPS) than 40 HP/s when you already have 267 HP/s. At best it's situational, but just looking at the numbers, lifesteal wins. 3% lifesteal has a bigger chance of being the deciding factor in anything than 1.5% more damage has. Runes/Masteries also mostly matter for earlygame, and earlygame will always be trades, not attacking without taking damage. Plus lifesteal allows you to heal up a tiny amount on minions. For most champs yes. For AD carries no. You already have plenty of lifesteal. If an AD carry gets caught, they're pretty much going to die regardless of how much lifesteal they have. 18-20% lifesteal is plenty enough to heal up after a fight. I'd rather have more dps than more health regen because....I'm an AD carry and I want the most DPS possible, and I already have plenty of lifesteal. As for your 2nd point, if you're arguing that lifesteal is better than Havoc early-game then yes that's debatable. But, it's really only an issue before you get your first doran's blade; having life steal is obviously better than having absolutely no lifesteal, but having an extra 3% when you already have it is negligible early-game (when your AD is so low), and negligible late-game (since you already have tons of lifesteal from Doran's/BT). The only time I really see Life Steal being better than Havoc is after you have IE, and before your have BT, since at that point in the game you have only a small amount of life-steal (6% if you got 2 doran's) but you'll be doing lots of damage.
Look, I already stated all the things that invalidate what you are saying. That's it for me.
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On April 20 2012 05:10 sob3k wrote:
Heres my question: Why is Mental Force so crappy compared to Brute Force?
1AP is terrible compared to 1AD, as the former has to go through crappy ratios and then is only applied every long ass CD and usually costs mana to use.
In an average skirmish the 3 ad from Brute Force could easily result in ~30 extra damage, whereas 3 AP will be worth probably less than 6.
Should we be taking two points in the ad and 2 points in the minion damage to promote last hitting as ap casters? Has Riot been trolling us with these ap masteries?
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On April 20 2012 05:21 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 05:10 sob3k wrote:
Heres my question: Why is Mental Force so crappy compared to Brute Force?
1AP is terrible compared to 1AD, as the former has to go through crappy ratios and then is only applied every long ass CD and usually costs mana to use.
In an average skirmish the 3 ad from Brute Force could easily result in ~30 extra damage, whereas 3 AP will be worth probably less than 6. Should we be taking two points in the ad and 2 points in the minion damage to promote last hitting as ap casters? Has Riot been trolling us with these ap masteries?
That's what I've always done. I think slightly easier last hitting is worth sacrificing 4 AP.
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I've looked at jiji's mastery pages and he usually takes ignite + 3ad, and a lot of people take ignite, two points in butchery, and then one point in ad or ap. Tons of people in TL have noticed how shitty the first tier ap masteries were since like the first week of the new mastery pages.
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I didn't even notice that Orianna got buffed until the patch notes came out the other day.
Love that I bought her just 2 weeks before this patch. She is so freaking awesome with the buff on Attack. 50 mana 1-5 2gd.
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On April 20 2012 05:14 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 05:00 spinesheath wrote:On April 20 2012 04:34 BlasiuS wrote:
Actually, I think for most AD carries that rely on autoattacks, Havoc is probably better.
most auto-AD carries get 2 doran's blade, and usually a BT as their 4th or 5th item. That's 18% lifesteal right there, + more once you start stacking your BT. The difference between 18% and 21% doesn't mean much. If you were trading 1v1 with another AD carry that had less lifesteal than you, well in that specific case it would mean the difference between getting a kill and dying. However that rarely happens in late-game. Also, 18%-20% is plenty of lifesteal to fill up your health bar on minions/monsters.
Now, with havoc, you are doing an additional damage every hit. It may not seem like much at first, but remember that AD carries build AD, AS, and crit. With IE and PD, you are critting over half of your attacks, and doing 250% damage per crit. My typical Kog build does ~880 damage per crit without using Havoc. Havoc would add another 13 damage per hit. But factoring in AS, most champs are around 1.5 attacks per second, so that's about 18-20 extra dps. I'd rather have that than an extra 3% lifesteal when i already have almost 20% lifesteal.
Not every AD carry builds the same, but those are some good baseline stats using common items like IE, BT, doran's blades. You also gain more lifesteal as you gain more damage. This includes crits. I'm not sure why you'd rather have 20 DPS when you already have 1333 DPS (yes, that's the DPS you need for 3/3 Havoc to add 20 DPS) than 40 HP/s when you already have 267 HP/s. At best it's situational, but just looking at the numbers, lifesteal wins. 3% lifesteal has a bigger chance of being the deciding factor in anything than 1.5% more damage has. Runes/Masteries also mostly matter for earlygame, and earlygame will always be trades, not attacking without taking damage. Plus lifesteal allows you to heal up a tiny amount on minions. For most champs yes. For AD carries no. You already have plenty of lifesteal. If an AD carry gets caught, they're pretty much going to die regardless of how much lifesteal they have. 18-20% lifesteal is plenty enough to heal up after a fight. I'd rather have more dps than more health regen because....I'm an AD carry and I want the most DPS possible, and I already have plenty of lifesteal. As for your 2nd point, if you're arguing that lifesteal is better than Havoc early-game then yes that's debatable. But, it's really only an issue before you get your first doran's blade; having life steal is obviously better than having absolutely no lifesteal, but having an extra 3% when you already have it is negligible early-game (when your AD is so low), and negligible late-game (since you already have tons of lifesteal from Doran's/BT). The only time I really see Life Steal being better than Havoc is after you have IE, and before your have BT, since at that point in the game you have only a small amount of life-steal (6% if you got 2 doran's) but you'll be doing lots of damage.
you seem so focused on the fact that havoc seemingly outperforms lifesteal mastery late game, but the simple fact is that neither of them really do jack late game. Also, 3% lifesteal being a drop in the proverbial bucket doesn't really become a problem when you've only got, as you say 6% lifesteal. 3% is quite a bit at that point. It only becomes peanuts later on when you have a huge amount of it, but guess what, by that time havoc does fuck-all either.
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On April 20 2012 05:10 sob3k wrote:
Heres my question: Why is Mental Force so crappy compared to Brute Force?
1AP is terrible compared to 1AD, as the former has to go through crappy ratios and then is only applied every long ass CD and usually costs mana to use.
In an average skirmish the 3 ad from Brute Force could easily result in ~30 extra damage, whereas 3 AP will be worth probably less than 6.
this issue is way more interesting than you think:
- you get less flat magic pen than armor pen from runes
- champions generally start with higher magic resistance (30) than armor (about the half amount)
- most champions scale up armor with level, only a few get magic resistance/level naturally
- ap champions have generally higher base damage on their abilities
- ap champions rely heavily on their ability scaling, unlike most ad champions and ranged ad carries in particular
- ap champions have 3 things to scale up their raw dps: AP, CDR, penetration and situationally lichbane while...
- ad champions have 4 things to scale up their raw dps: AD, AS, crit, penetration and situationally cdr/sheen/trinity
- very likely more stuff that is significant
you see, you cannot compare these two masteries just like that.
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On April 20 2012 05:29 Cloud9157 wrote:
I didn't even notice that Orianna got buffed until the patch notes came out the other day.
Love that I bought her just 2 weeks before this patch. She is so freaking awesome with the buff on Attack. 50 mana 1-5 2gd.
I'm actually more surprised that nobody has mentioned the huge mana cost reductions on Zilean. I'd have expected to see way more Zileans now, but it wasn't the case so far.
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Those costs were probably mostly just to offset the early nerf to blue buff. Which still hurts ZIlean a ton.
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So has anyone felt the effect of the atma nerf? Is it a noticeable difference?
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This is officially the buggiest piece of shit patch I have ever witnessed since I started playing LoL.
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On April 20 2012 05:21 Sabin010 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 05:10 sob3k wrote:
Heres my question: Why is Mental Force so crappy compared to Brute Force?
1AP is terrible compared to 1AD, as the former has to go through crappy ratios and then is only applied every long ass CD and usually costs mana to use.
In an average skirmish the 3 ad from Brute Force could easily result in ~30 extra damage, whereas 3 AP will be worth probably less than 6. Should we be taking two points in the ad and 2 points in the minion damage to promote last hitting as ap casters? Has Riot been trolling us with these ap masteries?
thats what im doing now. 2 ap is basically meaningless. but getting a few more last hits isnt.
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Ireland23335 Posts
On April 20 2012 05:06 Ferrose wrote:
Anyone try Hecarim in solo top yet?
I've done a few games in the jungle. First game I went Wriggle's and felt really useless. The other games I go Philo into Phage into Aegis and it feels decent enough. You can stay in fights for a long time with your W. Rushing Triforce seems to give good damage because he needs some attack speed and makes good use of the Sheen proc since he's spamming Q.
I tried jungle with philo hog trinity frozen heart and shurelyas. Got super fed and we were miles ahead in some random normal and I still felt pretty sub par. Like scip predicted a worse version of skarner. He is even less tanky than skarner but does less damage without items and has super high cds. His ult is good but sejuanis is better if you want him for the ult.
I had 465 ms and only +30 from the passive at level 15. Pretty terrible. It was like +50 or someting at 621 ms with the last tick of E and 621 is ridiculously high ms and it still wasn't that big a deal considering it's a steriod effect for your AD and it only lasts 1 second at that value.
Solo top seems like he'd just push lane constantly but be good at doing that since E is a ridiculous escape and he has ulti as well. Can't see him straight up winning a lane though.
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On April 20 2012 05:56 TheKefka wrote:
This is officially the buggiest piece of shit patch I have ever witnessed since I started playing LoL.
EU server is always like 100x worse than NA lol...
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EPT
