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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:04 emucxg wrote: EU server is always like 100x worse than NA lol... Meanwhile on EUw http://i.imgur.com/svRmF.jpg I'm tempted to do that referral thing people talked about few pages ago now that eu w is completely unplayable. What are the odds that they notice 200 lvl 5 accounts coming from the same IP? | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On April 20 2012 05:29 barbsq wrote: you seem so focused on the fact that havoc seemingly outperforms lifesteal mastery late game, but the simple fact is that neither of them really do jack late game. Also, 3% lifesteal being a drop in the proverbial bucket doesn't really become a problem when you've only got, as you say 6% lifesteal. 3% is quite a bit at that point. It only becomes peanuts later on when you have a huge amount of it, but guess what, by that time havoc does fuck-all either. lol, almost all masteries are pretty much "a drop in the proverbial bucket". The point is to optimize. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
The most important thing to realize about the "smallness" of runes and masteries is that the later in the game the less they matter, that's why you rune and mastery purely for early game and itemize for later on if needed. Usually you need to itemize for the lane for the first 15 minutes as well. Things like 10% CC reduction are always good so things like juggernaught should be considered for later on, though. | ||
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:01 Slayer91 wrote: I tried jungle with philo hog trinity frozen heart and shurelyas. Got super fed and we were miles ahead in some random normal and I still felt pretty sub par. Like scip predicted a worse version of skarner. He is even less tanky than skarner but does less damage without items and has super high cds. His ult is good but sejuanis is better if you want him for the ult. I had 465 ms and only +30 from the passive at level 15. Pretty terrible. It was like +50 or someting at 621 ms with the last tick of E and 621 is ridiculously high ms and it still wasn't that big a deal considering it's a steriod effect for your AD and it only lasts 1 second at that value. Solo top seems like he'd just push lane constantly but be good at doing that since E is a ridiculous escape and he has ulti as well. Can't see him straight up winning a lane though. Yeah his passive is really underwhelming. I haven't gotten to play him solo top yet though  I really wanna try maxing W first and getting a Spirit Visage and see how long I can sustain myself in a fight. You won't do as much damage but in a big teamfight when your team is dishing out lots of damage you'd heal like crazy. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:10 BlasiuS wrote: lol, almost all masteries are pretty much "a drop in the proverbial bucket". The point is to optimize. aaand, why you optimize for early game, and pretty much ignore the late game consequences of masteries and runes (for the most part). I am quite convinced that from levels 1-9, the lifesteal mastery will completely outperform havoc, in terms of laning interaction, and indeed most people have indicated as much, saying that two champs, with the only difference being lifesteal vs havoc, the lifesteal one will simply out-trade the havoc one. And I don't understand how anything else matters. Havoc isn't enough dmg to really assist in last hitting, and it just seems to me that by the time havoc would outperform lifesteal, neither really matter. you also keep tossing out this word optimize, when I see nothing 'unoptimal' about getting lifesteal. Maximizing damage is a hell of a lot more complicated than just trying to get the highest possible AD count. so basically, if you can demonstrate that havoc is better than lifesteal for the laning phase, then i might be inclined to agree with you, but IMO you simply don't get enough out of it to justify the points in it. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:42 wei2coolman wrote: So, from what i've been hearing is that WW has become a popular ban pick. Why? I haven't played in a while, but since when did WW become such a popular ban pick? He has an insanly strong laneing phase because of his sustain, plus his early game was buffed awhile ago, giving him more damage on his autoattacks+ultimate. I can only name a few champions that beat WW and even then hes a monster late game that pretty much forces carries to buy a QSS or they get shut down. | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:42 wei2coolman wrote: So, from what i've been hearing is that WW has become a popular ban pick. Why? I haven't played in a while, but since when did WW become such a popular ban pick? 'cause he's a bag of dicks top laner who just sits there immovable until he gets to mid/late game where he's unkillable | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:43 barbsq wrote: so basically, if you can demonstrate that havoc is better than lifesteal for the laning phase, then i might be inclined to agree with you, but IMO you simply don't get enough out of it to justify the points in it. While laning, lifesteal also helps you outside direct trades as additional hp regen, while havoc is barely useful for csing (flat AD masteries help more there). I've given up on the discussion, though. For typical builds, it's a relatively large increase in lifesteal (over what most carries get) vs a much smaller relative increase in damage. If you don't think lifesteal is useful, don't get vampirism. It seems there are two differing objections now: One is that vampirism is useless once you get lifesteal items because you already have more lifesteal; the other is that vampirism is useless unless you get lifesteal items because 3% isn't enough. I don't understand either objection, since the stat is additive and there's no particular reason why your items should happen to provide exactly "enough" lifesteal to make those 3% less valuable (unlike CDR, crit, AS, APen, all of which are capped in some way). But YMMV. | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:53 MooMooMugi wrote: He has an insanly strong laneing phase because of his sustain, plus his early game was buffed awhile ago, giving him more damage on his autoattacks+ultimate. I can only name a few champions that beat WW and even then hes a monster late game that pretty much forces carries to buy a QSS or they get shut down. Also, probably, sustain getting nerfed on many other champions makes WW's sustain that much more valuable. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:01 Slayer91 wrote: I tried jungle with philo hog trinity frozen heart and shurelyas. Got super fed and we were miles ahead in some random normal and I still felt pretty sub par. Like scip predicted a worse version of skarner. He is even less tanky than skarner but does less damage without items and has super high cds. His ult is good but sejuanis is better if you want him for the ult. I had 465 ms and only +30 from the passive at level 15. Pretty terrible. It was like +50 or someting at 621 ms with the last tick of E and 621 is ridiculously high ms and it still wasn't that big a deal considering it's a steriod effect for your AD and it only lasts 1 second at that value. Solo top seems like he'd just push lane constantly but be good at doing that since E is a ridiculous escape and he has ulti as well. Can't see him straight up winning a lane though. (Active): Hecarim surrounds himself with the spirit of dread for 4 seconds, dealing magic damage per second to all enemies within its reach. Additionally, Hecarim is healed for a percentage of the damage enemies within the area take from any source. Healing from damage dealt to minions is capped. I think that and his Q are his true 'steroids'. His passive is just cosmetic and just makes some item optimizations nice to consider. The real question is if and how you can use W to hecarims advantage imo. looks like if you activate it at the right time, you get a shitton of life back. his Q is pretty strong too. the base damage and 0.6 scaling look shitty but considering the 4 to 2s cd it deals about the same damage as skarners Q but all physical and all +AD so i guess it is easyer to scale it up with items (atmas is worse now though). he is certainly not in the raw trading power niche as skarner or udyr are but he is about as mobile as shivana but has bit more utility and burst, while not being manaless and being less tanky. the high burst and utility from E is also what makes him an interesting pick imo. | ||
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
Assuming you have no bonus AP and AD (just for simplicity's sake), at level 9 when you have maxed W, 2 points in Q, and 1 point in E and your ult, let's calculate how much damage and sustain you get. If you get into a fight and one person is standing in your W for the full duration, they take 280 damage alone, and 85 from each Q (you should get 2 off in this time). They take 450 damage (280+85+85), and you get healing from 30% of that, healing you for 135 HP (450x.30). If you have 5 levels in Q and 2 in W, they take 125 damage from W and 190 from each Q. They take 505 damage (125+190+190) and you get healed for 15% of the damage, healing you for 75.75 HP (505x.15). If you hit 5 champions with your W for the full duration, you're doing 1,400 damage total with your W (280x5), and 850 damage with Q (85x10, assuming you hit all 5 champions with it), dealing 2,250 damage in total. This would heal you for 675 HP (2250x.30). Meanwhile with Q maxed first you're doing 625 damage with W (125x5) and 1,900 with Q (190x10) once again assuming you hit every champion. This gives you 2,525 damage total and heals you for 378.75 (2525x.15) HP. Assume same parameters for the following: W maxed first, against 2 champions: 900 damage dealt, 270 HP gained Q maxed first, against 2 champions: 1,010 damage dealt, 151.5 HP gained W maxed first, against 3 champions: 1,350 damage dealt, 405 HP gained Q maxed first, against 3 champions: 1,515 damage dealt, 227.25 HP gained W maxed first, against 4 champions: 1,800 damage dealt, 540 HP gained Q maxed first, against 4 champions: 2,020 damage dealt, 303 HP gained This won't be too accurate because there are too many variables, such as resists, penetration, damage from your team, creeps, towers, enemy creeps, your AP and AD, etc. But it shows that maxing W first increases your healing by 79% in fights, while you only lose about 12% damage output. Seems like you would be able to get mad sustain in a fight (especially with a Spirit Visage) if you max W first. You aren't losing that much damage either. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:56 bmn wrote: While laning, lifesteal also helps you outside direct trades as additional hp regen, while havoc is barely useful for csing (flat AD masteries help more there). I've given up on the discussion, though. For typical builds, it's a relatively large increase in lifesteal (over what most carries get) vs a much smaller relative increase in damage. If you don't think lifesteal is useful, don't get vampirism. It seems there are two differing objections now: One is that vampirism is useless once you get lifesteal items because you already have more lifesteal; the other is that vampirism is useless unless you get lifesteal items because 3% isn't enough. I don't understand either objection, since the stat is additive and there's no particular reason why your items should happen to provide exactly "enough" lifesteal to make those 3% less valuable (unlike CDR, crit, AS, APen, all of which are capped in some way). But YMMV. it's a strange argument. Lifesteal is exactly like every other stat: it's less appealing to stack it the more you already have. The fact that somebody is going to buy a vamp scepter later actually makes the mastery LESS appealing, although it's still an autopick on pretty much every ad. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:53 MooMooMugi wrote: He has an insanly strong laneing phase because of his sustain, plus his early game was buffed awhile ago, giving him more damage on his autoattacks+ultimate. I can only name a few champions that beat WW and even then hes a monster late game that pretty much forces carries to buy a QSS or they get shut down. Which ones would you name? I'm kind of curious as I mainly know how to fight against champs than play as them, so apart from the tops I play I lack insight on the match-ups up there. Also about QSS if your team si somewhat coordinated they'll always keep a cc for you, Katarina-style.  Seems like my match history has been deleted in my profile. Is it the same for you? I was about to check another profile when the queue popped. Also Nunu-Jax-Kassadin, Ahri-Shaco-Morgana bans. Below 1200 Elo so strange. ôo | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
Umm some champs that can fare well against WW is Olaf(true damage), an aggressive Lee sin, Tryndamere, Renekton, Riven, basically any champ that is really strong lvls1-5 when WW is the weakest | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
On April 20 2012 08:06 Alaric wrote: Which ones would you name? I'm kind of curious as I mainly know how to fight against champs than play as them, so apart from the tops I play I lack insight on the match-ups up there. Also about QSS if your team si somewhat coordinated they'll always keep a cc for you, Katarina-style. Seems like my match history has been deleted in my profile. Is it the same for you? I was about to check another profile when the queue popped. Also Nunu-Jax-Kassadin, Ahri-Shaco-Morgana bans. Below 1200 Elo so strange. ôo I like to play Riven vs WW, also Pantheon can shut him down early but has to be super aggressive, same with Renekton. Olaf does pretty well. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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