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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 16 2012 09:51 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 08:47 mr_tolkien wrote:
Kassadin : mobility, you shouldn't even hit him once
you can't just give reasoning like this as a "hard counter" though kassadin has high mobility at 6... but he's got like 6s between each jump whereas xerath's 3 ult blasts are within 1s of each other. so yeah, he can dodge 1 of your blasts with good timing but not all three. not to mention if he dodges 3 times in a row, you've essentially won because of mana cost differentials. and even if he can not die to you, he definitely can't kill you either. kassadin is not a "hard counter" and most of the examples you gave are totally situational just like the above
You forgot the part where you are silenced and slowed for infinity. Perfect spacing on R+Q+E= beat Xerath.
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On March 16 2012 09:42 Slayer91 wrote:
Orianna? Got a minor nerf and only salce plays her.
Her nerfs were hardly minor- the AP ratios on two of her spells were nerfed, her range was reduced, her auto-attack range was reduced, and the cost of positioning her ball went up. Half of those changes were partly undone by adjusting her mana regen rates, increasing her spell range, and auto attack range. She was really, really bad at the peak of her nerfs because her mana regen was about 2/3rds of what it is now, her spells costed more, and all of her ranges were terrible. She's okay now because they adjusted her.
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On March 16 2012 09:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Xerath has no exposure because he is a shitty solo Q champion. He needs a team to protect him or he crumbles once people are on top of him.
He isn't played in teams, I assume, because he is not at all fun to play (it's why I don't play him). There are plenty of other extremely strong mages that are actually enjoyable to play. Mid is by far the most flexible lane because people can excel very far off of just skill, regardless of what champions "counter" others.
Two_Down, stop making arguments for mid lane match ups as if you know them all extremely well, because you don't.
I hate this argument. Pretty much every mage in the game HATES when people are on top of him. The only ones who want people to be literally on top of him are Swain and Karthus. Ryze has a bit more tankiness, but no one else really wants to get beat on. Sure, most want to be close, but how many actually want to get beat on, or can survive it?
As for match ups, the only things that I said definitively are that Ori shouldnt hard counter anyone (which she doesnt) and that the only hard counter for Xerath is LB. To me, a hard counter means that you have absolutely no way of living through the laning phase without a) dying, or b) having to voluntarily zone yourself so hard that you are incapable of doing your job for the rest of the game. Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think anyone is capable of doing that to Xerath (save LB, who I mentioned), especially once he gets his ult up and can just pop you down to low hp from the other side of the lane.
I mean sure, some people can be a dick. But Cassio is no harder for him than she is for TF, and he is a common pick. Hell, cassio is better against Ryze than she is against Xerath, and he is commonly picked. But she isnt a "hard counter," just someone who requires you to be careful about when facing her.
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On March 16 2012 09:40 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 09:34 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 16 2012 09:27 red_ wrote:On March 16 2012 09:04 Two_DoWn wrote:
The problem with Xerath is people dont actually know how he works since he isnt played, and assume that since he isnt played he must be bad. As a result, they come up with bad explanations for why he isnt played in order to justify their conclusion.
Its the same thing that happens with every underplayed but strong champion, Irelia, Ori, Cassio, ect.
Just because someone isnt played doenst mean they are weak. Xerath's lane is actually INCREDIBLY strong. The only person he really straight up loses to is LB (but she beats just about everyone). Every other lane Xerath is perfectly fine in, or wins. ... And sometimes when a champ isn't played they really are weak. I don't know about the euros as much, but pretty much every big time NA AP carry spent substantial time with Xerath coming out of the tourney they played right as his patch launched(I want to say it was an MLG but that's fairly irrelevant), and yet he still hasn't received much tourney time. I have never in all the times we've discussed Xerath said I think he's a bad champ, but for some reason the majority on this forum has long thought he is some crazy overlooked OP permaban waiting to happen, and it's just not true. He's an extremely situational pick because there are just stronger APs to choose from. I dont think you can write him off. The list of sleeper op (or sleeper really really good) champions who werent played for over a year is far longer than the list of champions who werent played because they sucked. Most of the time pro players and the community are just wrong. The only pro player who ever came close to ACTUALLY trying to learn Xerath was chauster, and he stomped with him. But then he switched back to bot. I would love to see this list of 'sleeper' champs that weren't played for 'over a year' without balance changes. Why do you even type shit like that.
Akali, Alistar, Anivia, Cass, Corki, Mundo, Galio, Gragas, Ez, Irelia, Janna, J4, Jax, Kennen, Kog, LB, LS, Leona,Malph, Mao, MF, Morde, Morg, Noct, Nunu, Ori, Poppy, Ramm, Renek, Riven, Rumble, Shyv, Sion, Skarner, Sona, Talon, Trist, TF, Urgot, Vlad, Wukong, Yorick, Zilean.
Every single character on that list is or has been a viable competitive pick who was completely ignored by the community for a period of time. Some got small buffs, most did not.
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Remember when someone I think shake was laughing at 1200 elo players perma banning shen and rammus all the time like 6 months ago? Yeah, who's laughing now.
Uh... what? Those guys sucked dick like six months ago.
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On March 16 2012 09:47 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 09:42 Slayer91 wrote:
People always find reasons why unpopular champions aren't played. Biggest example: Poppy, but now people are playing her they realize she's not that bad after all. Remember mordekaiser? Only good in low elo because only baddies die to no cc champ. Xerath? Was always strong and everyone stopped playing him because they went back to what they were used to.
Orianna? Got a minor nerf and only salce plays her.
Heroes that never had a long FoTM period need people who really like them to show how good they are, otherwise people stick to what they know. Chauster was saying mundo was strong all the time, he got a decent buff and now he's one of the top junglers? Rammus was forgotten for so long and then taken up and perma banned until everyone forgets about him again.
Remember when someone I think shake was laughing at 1200 elo players perma banning shen and rammus all the time like 6 months ago? Yeah, who's laughing now.
The reason people wait for buffs because - they have perfectly functional champions that they have far from skill capped, so why learn a new champ from scratch unless he gets buffed to a point where he doesn't need really refined play to be strong? You're acting as if sometimes 'minor' buffs/nerfs don't actually effect how a champion performs in their role. Yes sometimes a buff does simply serve as a 'this champ is better let's play him' marker, but sometimes it really does make the champion better. Sometimes it's not even a direct balance change to that champion, but those it competes with either for a given role, or would compete with in a matchup getting their balance altered, but it's not always just psychological. There is an awful lot of irrational thought that goes on in here sometimes.
You still haven't explained the insurgence in popularity of Morde and Poppy. How about when Rammus went from perma-ban status to never being played after his powerball nerf. Despite no changes he got back to permaban status again. Remember Teemo before Rainman popularized him? Or AP Alistar who became so strong Riot had to rape his ratios into the ground? (Side note, Alistar's damage/ratios were actually much higher prior to his passive change) Or Jax who everyone thought was trash, partially due to Dyrus' troll guide on solomid, despite him actually being really powerful. Heck even MF is getting more popular again despite people saying she's the shittiest bar AD carry bar none.
I could go on but the point is there have been a LOT of champions who went unnoticed despite being really strong and became FOTM even without receiving buffs.
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On March 16 2012 10:29 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +Remember when someone I think shake was laughing at 1200 elo players perma banning shen and rammus all the time like 6 months ago? Yeah, who's laughing now. Uh... what? Those guys sucked dick like six months ago.
They did. And I'm still laughing. Because Rammus sucks ass.
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On March 16 2012 10:18 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 09:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Xerath has no exposure because he is a shitty solo Q champion. He needs a team to protect him or he crumbles once people are on top of him.
He isn't played in teams, I assume, because he is not at all fun to play (it's why I don't play him). There are plenty of other extremely strong mages that are actually enjoyable to play. Mid is by far the most flexible lane because people can excel very far off of just skill, regardless of what champions "counter" others.
Two_Down, stop making arguments for mid lane match ups as if you know them all extremely well, because you don't. I hate this argument. Pretty much every mage in the game HATES when people are on top of him. The only ones who want people to be literally on top of him are Swain and Karthus. Ryze has a bit more tankiness, but no one else really wants to get beat on. Sure, most want to be close, but how many actually want to get beat on, or can survive it? As for match ups, the only things that I said definitively are that Ori shouldnt hard counter anyone (which she doesnt) and that the only hard counter for Xerath is LB. To me, a hard counter means that you have absolutely no way of living through the laning phase without a) dying, or b) having to voluntarily zone yourself so hard that you are incapable of doing your job for the rest of the game. Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think anyone is capable of doing that to Xerath (save LB, who I mentioned), especially once he gets his ult up and can just pop you down to low hp from the other side of the lane. I mean sure, some people can be a dick. But Cassio is no harder for him than she is for TF, and he is a common pick. Hell, cassio is better against Ryze than she is against Xerath, and he is commonly picked. But she isnt a "hard counter," just someone who requires you to be careful about when facing her.
You're vastly oversimplifying. Sure, no one wants to be taking damage but you can't really equate Xerath with Cass/Ryze/Malzahar when it comes to having someone in your face. Xerath is like Brand, his damage is focused on AoE and is scaled around that. Thus, if he wants to be effective in a team fight he needs to take full advantage of that fact. If he has to deal with someone in his face he loses potency.
Honestly though, I think the "unfun" aspect of Xerath has a lot more to do with it than any actual gameplay issues, especially now that you have crazy champions like Ziggs.
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I almost feel bad, I just first blood a Garen in middle of lane at level two with Irelia. If it didn't just happen I'd have not thought it possible.
Low level games silly.
o.o
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On March 16 2012 10:34 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 10:29 UniversalSnip wrote:Remember when someone I think shake was laughing at 1200 elo players perma banning shen and rammus all the time like 6 months ago? Yeah, who's laughing now. Uh... what? Those guys sucked dick like six months ago. They did. And I'm still laughing. Because Rammus sucks ass.
We have been over this before in past GD threads. I am not sure where this misconception started, but rammus is largely unchanged (and actually substantially worse) than he was over a year ago. The only buff rammus has gotten since the Lux patch (October 2010) was a change to his w that decreased the damage it did at level 1 but increased it at high levels. Since you dont get DBC maxed till 13, the net effect to his jungle was a nerf. Every other change was negative for him.
The only ACTUAL buff you can try to argue (with success) that he got was that his jungle was passively buffed with the jungle remake, but even then, he was buffed no harder than Udyr or Shyvana.
Shen is a consequence of the buffs. He was decent, but not WTF level back then.
Now, wether or not you feel rammus is viable currently is another matter entirely.
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On March 16 2012 10:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
Akali, Alistar, Anivia, Cass, Corki, Mundo, Galio, Gragas, Ez, Irelia, Janna, J4, Jax, Kennen, Kog, LB, LS, Leona,Malph, Mao, MF, Morde, Morg, Noct, Nunu, Ori, Poppy, Ramm, Renek, Riven, Rumble, Shyv, Sion, Skarner, Sona, Talon, Trist, TF, Urgot, Vlad, Wukong, Yorick, Zilean.
Every single character on that list is or has been a viable competitive pick who was completely ignored by the community for a period of time. Some got small buffs, most did not.
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come on stop exaggerating
>mundo, kennen, kog, lee sin, morde, morg, riven, skarner, vlad
these champs were played after major buffs, they were bad or less good before their buffs
>alistar, corki, janna, leona, shyvana, sion, yorick
these champs have never seen an increase or decrease in play, they've always been at the same level
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Shyvana I would definitely agree that she saw a huge surge in popularity that had nothing to do with buffs. She was pretty universally considered to be a lacklustre jungler because of her lack of cc, and the only high level player that really used her often was Saintvicious in NA, and even he never really used her in many serious games. But after those big M5 wins where Shyvana had a very significant part in, Shyvana's popularity basically went from rarely used to being used in like every other game. The bandwagon has simmered considerably now, but she's still pretty popular these days.
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On March 16 2012 11:06 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 10:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
Akali, Alistar, Anivia, Cass, Corki, Mundo, Galio, Gragas, Ez, Irelia, Janna, J4, Jax, Kennen, Kog, LB, LS, Leona,Malph, Mao, MF, Morde, Morg, Noct, Nunu, Ori, Poppy, Ramm, Renek, Riven, Rumble, Shyv, Sion, Skarner, Sona, Talon, Trist, TF, Urgot, Vlad, Wukong, Yorick, Zilean.
Every single character on that list is or has been a viable competitive pick who was completely ignored by the community for a period of time. Some got small buffs, most did not. >alistar, corki, janna, leona, shyvana, sion, yorick these champs have never seen an increase or decrease in play, they've always been at the same level
When I first started playing LoL in like December 2010 I remember people even on TL saying that Alistar was a shitty champion. I don't remember well enough to know if he got buffed but he didn't get popular again until teams in NA started doing those roam strategies where Ali was king.
Yorick is a stretch cause people thought he was shit for like...the first two weeks he came out. Then he got a buff and everyone thought he was super op.
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On March 16 2012 11:01 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 10:34 HazMat wrote:On March 16 2012 10:29 UniversalSnip wrote:Remember when someone I think shake was laughing at 1200 elo players perma banning shen and rammus all the time like 6 months ago? Yeah, who's laughing now. Uh... what? Those guys sucked dick like six months ago. They did. And I'm still laughing. Because Rammus sucks ass. We have been over this before in past GD threads. I am not sure where this misconception started, but rammus is largely unchanged (and actually substantially worse) than he was over a year ago. The only buff rammus has gotten since the Lux patch (October 2010) was a change to his w that decreased the damage it did at level 1 but increased it at high levels. Since you dont get DBC maxed till 13, the net effect to his jungle was a nerf. Every other change was negative for him. The only ACTUAL buff you can try to argue (with success) that he got was that his jungle was passively buffed with the jungle remake, but even then, he was buffed no harder than Udyr or Shyvana. Shen is a consequence of the buffs. He was decent, but not WTF level back then. Now, wether or not you feel rammus is viable currently is another matter entirely.
I never went over that because I feel like you guys waste time theorycrafting than playing the game. I don't know how you can compare shen at the moment to shen last year lol. Maybe not you specifically but whoever brought up me making fun of 1200s for banning Shen and Rammus (though I mostly laughed at that because they also always banned malphite and amumu. Equaling a total of all 4 bans on tanks.)
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the reason low elo players ban amumu and malph isnt because they are tanks per say. its because low elo players have this herd mentality of running in a ball. this causes champs with hard engages, especially aoe ones, to rip low elo teams to peices. especially since due to no one being able to farm properly, no one has items, which actually leads to damage being higher as base damage on tanks is more relavent.
ive seen tons of teams die in an amumu ult or malph ult at low elo, so they ban aoe aoe engage champs rather than work on their play, which is pretty standard bad player mentality, blame the game rather than fix your play.
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On March 16 2012 11:17 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 11:06 gtrsrs wrote:On March 16 2012 10:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
Akali, Alistar, Anivia, Cass, Corki, Mundo, Galio, Gragas, Ez, Irelia, Janna, J4, Jax, Kennen, Kog, LB, LS, Leona,Malph, Mao, MF, Morde, Morg, Noct, Nunu, Ori, Poppy, Ramm, Renek, Riven, Rumble, Shyv, Sion, Skarner, Sona, Talon, Trist, TF, Urgot, Vlad, Wukong, Yorick, Zilean.
Every single character on that list is or has been a viable competitive pick who was completely ignored by the community for a period of time. Some got small buffs, most did not. >alistar, corki, janna, leona, shyvana, sion, yorick these champs have never seen an increase or decrease in play, they've always been at the same level When I first started playing LoL in like December 2010 I remember people even on TL saying that Alistar was a shitty champion. I don't remember well enough to know if he got buffed but he didn't get popular again until teams in NA started doing those roam strategies where Ali was king. Yorick is a stretch cause people thought he was shit for like...the first two weeks he came out. Then he got a buff and everyone thought he was super op.
alistar was def underpowered some time ago and it was largely due to his insanely long cooldowns, which (iirc) were the result of a nerf when heal comps where incredibly strong. not 100% sure on the nerf part, but I can't be bothered to really check, he def did have issues with cd's on his regular skills tho. That was also pre remake iirc.
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How do you guys improve? When I played more starcraft, it was a lot easier to just practice BOs and spam ladder games. However, with LoL soloq, you can't always get the champ or role you want to practice. What's the mentality for improving here when you're always doing something different with completely different people?
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On March 16 2012 11:21 turdburgler wrote:
ive seen tons of teams die in an amumu ult or malph ult at low elo, so they ban aoe aoe engage champs rather than work on their play, which is pretty standard bad player mentality, blame the game rather than fix your play.
Eh, that's not true. The bans are there to ban people that would wreck you, not people that would wreck you if you were much better than you are.
If amumu or malph is what causes them most trouble, and they want to win the game, that's who they should ban. You, as the person picking the ban, can't control how all your teammates play, so just telling them not to fail against amumu/malphite probably isn't enough.
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but the choice to ban out a 'weak' champ such as amumu, rather than learn how to play against him is a symptom of a toxic mindset.
when you factor in other insta bans such as shaco, you cant even ban out all the aoe cc champs in the game anyway, so its a fruitless endevour.
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On March 16 2012 11:24 Mystogun wrote:
How do you guys improve? When I played more starcraft, it was a lot easier to just practice BOs and spam ladder games. However, with LoL soloq, you can't always get the champ or role you want to practice. What's the mentality for improving here when you're always doing something different with completely different people?
get a team of 5 people
or insta lock 1 and only 1 champion in blind pick
basically just always try your hardest to win and improve, also analyzing replays works somewhat similar, think about what u should be doing and what u shouldnt, etc
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EPT
