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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
Mundo: .03 base as, .3 as per level, .5 mr/lvl. Health cost on W cut by 10 at all levels. 10 sec on ulti. Biggest change: health cost on W. Significant, but I dont think it is the difference between him being shit tier and him being a top jungle pick. In all likelyhood this was just a case of no one tried him in jungle before M5.
Kennen: (last big buff): .09 ratio increase on w. .05 on e. 20 energy cost reduced at max rank on E. Nothing significant here.
Koggles: First time as the op (over a year ago): No buffs, just nerfs. Second time (Slightly more recent): 4 uptime increase on w, then reduced to 2. I contend all it did was get people to play him again, hence the reason for the revert- still used in Hannover after.
Lee Sin: IIRC he was considered shit for a good 3 months, even after the hotfixes. He wasnt played until they found the double damage e bug.
Morde: dont try to argue that. He was barely touched between his remake and the sheild gutting in September.
Morg: Was played before they overbuffed her.
Riven: We have argued this before. The hotfixes did not take her from shit tier to overpowered. Westrice did.
Skarner: Meh, proably true. 15 mana was lulzy overpowered. However, if you look at where he is now to where he was on release, it isnt too different, and he is still played in tourneys.
Vlad: Depends on if you give credit to salce playing him before the transfuse changes. I do.
Ali: You forgot about the roam meta where ali went from shit tier to god. Then the remake, then people stopped playing him after the subsequent nerfs, now Snoopeh jungles him.
Corki: Are you kidding? Corki disappeared for a good 6 months. He only came back recently when they threw a few "look I am still here!" changes at him.
Janna: No play for 6 months, although this was due to Soraka/sona being ridiculous.
Leona: Seeing WAY more play now than she ever has. Just look at Hannover.
Shyv: If this was true I wouldnt have had about 50 GD posts raving about shvyana prior to Kiev, then another 50 raging about how M5 made her popular.
Sion: Goes in and out constantly as people remember he is there. Happened a year ago, then it happened again like 3-4 months ago when regi picked him up again.
Yorick: Went from "trash tier" to picked in tournaments (again, I maintain that the buffs did not put him there, merely pushed him over the top, but even then people left him alone for a long time). Remember the IEM where he was banned near permanently so you couldnt run Vayne/yorick?
Champs cycle frequently at the whims of the community. What happens is people try to attach seeing them get buffed in patchnotes to returns to relevance, even if the changes are minute. It is one of the few ways you can actually gain credibility for playing a champion everyone considers useless, even if the changes dont do jack. Just like how you get flamed for playing champions who get non consequential nerfs.
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On March 16 2012 11:30 turdburgler wrote:
but the choice to ban out a 'weak' champ such as amumu, rather than learn how to play against him is a symptom of a toxic mindset.
when you factor in other insta bans such as shaco, you cant even ban out all the aoe cc champs in the game anyway, so its a fruitless endevour.
Banning champs that will wreck you/your team isn't a symptom of a toxic mindset, it's the smart thing to do.
Certain characters have a lot more pubstomp potential at lower ELOs than higher ELOs. Some people have a lot more trouble against certain types of champions. That by itself doesn't mean that the low ELO people are not trying to improve.
If Twitch owns our team every time because my teammates just don't know how to play when he's around, there's nothing toxic about me banning him even if he's easily countered at higher ELOs.
Otherwise you might as well call any ban the sign of a toxic mindset -- learn to play the game instead of whining about <banned character>. You don't have to ban anyone, after all.
Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that amumu or twitch or whatever are "good bans", but I really dislike this whole attitude about laying out any low ELO behavior out as a symptom of a "toxic mindset". You ban what you think the largest threats to your team are, regardless of ELO -- sure, at lower ELO people might be worse at thinking bans through and factoring in your own team composition, etc., but that has nothing to do with a toxic mindset.
If you're talking about a training regime, that's a very different environment from solo queue, and it makes sense to specifically play against your bad matchups there.
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On March 16 2012 11:37 Two_DoWn wrote:
Janna: No play for 6 months, although this was due to Soraka/sona being ridiculous.
Pretty sure the only reason Janna is played regularly now is because they nerfed Soraka hard and Sona a little bit. She's always been amazing in team fights; it was just a pain in the ass to play her vs Soraka and be unable to contest in lane because of Soraka's ludicrous sustain.
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On March 16 2012 11:06 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 10:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
Akali, Alistar, Anivia, Cass, Corki, Mundo, Galio, Gragas, Ez, Irelia, Janna, J4, Jax, Kennen, Kog, LB, LS, Leona,Malph, Mao, MF, Morde, Morg, Noct, Nunu, Ori, Poppy, Ramm, Renek, Riven, Rumble, Shyv, Sion, Skarner, Sona, Talon, Trist, TF, Urgot, Vlad, Wukong, Yorick, Zilean.
Every single character on that list is or has been a viable competitive pick who was completely ignored by the community for a period of time. Some got small buffs, most did not. :| come on stop exaggerating >mundo, kennen, kog, lee sin, morde, morg, riven, skarner, vlad these champs were played after major buffs, they were bad or less good before their buffs >alistar, corki, janna, leona, shyvana, sion, yorick these champs have never seen an increase or decrease in play, they've always been at the same level
i'll go point by point
>kennen was buffed? the first time kennen was buffed after his passive nerf and zhonyas split was skarner patch and I'm pretty sure he was getting popular before that. he was never weak imo.
>even after lee sin got hotfixed the day of the patch he went underplayed for a LONG time.
>I'm like 90% sure Morde got popular not because of his buffs (did he even have any? -.- but because people discovered that AP morde was actually a beast whereas prior to that people were running pure tank morde, which was worthless.
>I'm not sure if alistar was played all that much prior to the AP alistar fotm. I do know that no one ever played him AP carry. The patch where his passive got change was a NERF, not a buff, but it was that patch that ironically made him fotm ap carry.
>Corki only saw play after they added an AD ratio to his ulti. Before that he wasn't played all that much if memory serves.
>Shyvana was a troll pick and no one ever picked her (at least in NA server) until M5 dominated with her at IEM. You're not playing the same ladder as me if you think she was played prior to M5.On March 16 2012 11:37 Two_DoWn wrote:
Mundo: .03 base as, .3 as per level, .5 mr/lvl. Health cost on W cut by 10 at all levels. 10 sec on ulti. Biggest change: health cost on W. Significant, but I dont think it is the difference between him being shit tier and him being a top jungle pick. In all likelyhood this was just a case of no one tried him in jungle before M5.
Morg: Was played before they overbuffed her.
Skarner: Meh, proably true. 15 mana was lulzy overpowered. However, if you look at where he is now to where he was on release, it isnt too different, and he is still played in tourneys.
Sion: Goes in and out constantly as people remember he is there. Happened a year ago, then it happened again like 3-4 months ago when regi picked him up again.
Yorick: Went from "trash tier" to picked in tournaments (again, I maintain that the buffs did not put him there, merely pushed him over the top, but even then people left him alone for a long time). Remember the IEM where he was banned near permanently so you couldnt run Vayne/yorick?
For the most part I agree with you but on those I disagree. Mundo buffs were what made him viable. A 50% cost reduction at lvl 1 is huge for junlging. Morg was underplayed before her buffs if I remember; you saw her, but not nearly as much. Skarner also got a slight buff on ult duration which definitely helped. Sion disappeared because Riot nerfed his stun duration from 2 to 1.5, then came back in popularity when Riot buffed his mana. It's questionable if those mana buffs were honestly all that needed (I dont really think it was necessary). I still think Yorick was trash tier before the mana cost buffs; he simply ran oom way too fast imo.
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They did remake the whole jungle... caused a fairly large meta shift.
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Dan Dinh steps down from Epik. Westrice typing his statement in this thread atm.
They're trying out Clakey and Lapaka for jungle, Wingsofdeathx for top lane, and MashMe and Kenkith(Not sure on spelling) for AD bot. Westrice will end up playing whatever of top/bot isn't filled at IPL.
Epik Aphromoo may be a possibility if v8 lays an egg at IPL.
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Not gonna lie, this is a huge upgrade for Epik no matter which direction they go (paka/clakey). Personally I hope they go Paka cuz he is boss.
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On March 16 2012 11:50 HPoirot wrote:Dan Dinh steps down from Epik. Westrice typing his statement in this thread atm. They're trying out Clakey and Lapaka for jungle, Wingsofdeathx for top lane, and MashMe and Kenkith(Not sure on spelling) for AD bot. Westrice will end up playing whatever of top/bot isn't filled at IPL. Epik Aphromoo may be a possibility if v8 lays an egg at IPL.
EG without Dan Dinh just isn't going to work. So sad 
I understand Dan isn't the best, but such a chill guy :D
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That's exciting, especially if Lapaka is their new jungle. Aphromoo plus Lapaka plus Salce would make EG fucking terrifying.
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And EG is slowly gutted of players I enjoy. At least I can root for Team Worst Top NA. =|
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Does anyone remember what you used to buy on jungles before people realized wriggles was good in the jungle? I distinctly remember never buying wriggles up until I started doing it occasionally on Shaco. I was thinking about this yesterday and I honestly cant remember since it was so long ago.
Did everyone just go Bloodrazer back then?
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Ok, the idea of draft normals is great, but they need to fix the terrible pick order algorithm. Every time i solo for a draft normal it puts me last pick, and i get stuck playing support pretty much every time. Then the terrible duoers yell at you every time anything goes wrong.
sigh, I am getting an internet upgrade in a week and I will be back to playing some ranked games.
aaaand this should be in QQ thread but whatever. I am done.
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Argh Two_Down seriously stop saying that Westrice made her overpowered. Maybe in NA, but EUW has loved playing riven ever since her release and hotfixes.
Also Janna wasn't "No play for 6 months either", Melissan, Nyph, Krepo have played Janna consistently for months, CLGeu basically even said "Janna is the best support, Sona is overrated as hell" for ages.
Besides that I agree, Champions fall in and out of flavour consistently, remember Nocturne? Out of Flavour for a huge while, and now returning back into competitive play.
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On March 16 2012 09:19 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 09:13 Skithiryx wrote:On March 16 2012 08:37 Cloud9157 wrote:On March 16 2012 08:34 overt wrote:On March 16 2012 08:29 sob3k wrote:On March 16 2012 07:18 red_ wrote:On March 16 2012 07:03 Seuss wrote:Xerath has three problems: - Many players find him boring (combination of playstyle and aesthetics).
- You can't afford to miss a single skill shot in a team fight, especially with his ult.
- His niche is impinged upon by Ziggs and AP Kog'maw.
These problems do not make him bad, but they make him unpopular. Look I know TL loves Xerath, but that doesn't change the fact that since his release he has had some absolutely awful matchups vs some of the more common AP mids, and that will keep him out of (common) tourney play because you can't risk having your mid be a complete nonfactor due to matchup. Who owns xerath? I can think of LB, Ahri, and kassadin... thats not really any worse than many other mids, LB and Kass are the classic hardcounter mids.. None of those except maybe LB beat Xerath. He has ridiculous range and a really powerful lane phase. The problem with Xerath is two-fold. First, he's really team reliant. He can't just go instagib people by himself like Ahri can and he doesn't have a good initiation either. Second, pretty much no AP mids play him. Chauster is like the only person on NA that can play him well and when Chauster does play Xerath he gets retardedly fed. Also, jiji has a really solid K/D rate with Xerath (like 5.0 iirc) but has a low win rate with him. I think the main problem with him is his team reliance and the fact that so few APs are good with him. Regi can't play him, scarra can't play him, jiji can't/doesn't play him, and I'm not certain if Salce can but I've never seen Salce play him either. Kassadin owns pretty much every mid that is squishy. Xerath is no exception. I still maintain that Annie dominates Kassadin in midlane. Stun+w+autos too hard for him to trade with. Which is why I was careful to not say "all" squishy APs. Annie burst is retarded right when she hits 6. The only champ I've managed to beat her with on a consistent basis is Swain. Swain just stands there and takes pretty much anyone's burst, albeit barely against someone like Annie. Kass can beat her, but I would really think Annie should win trades with her stun. I doubt even 15% damage reduction is enough to withstand her bear combo.
Yeah it wasn't meant as a YOU ARE WRONG, just more of an observation, Brand and Orianna also Destroy Annie in lane.
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I don't understand the whole point of what Two_Down is trying to convey lol. Of course champion's power increases by how much they're played. Every one knows this. Just look at Eve. What is your point?
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On March 16 2012 11:37 Two_DoWn wrote:+ Show Spoiler [wall of text] +Mundo: .03 base as, .3 as per level, .5 mr/lvl. Health cost on W cut by 10 at all levels. 10 sec on ulti. Biggest change: health cost on W. Significant, but I dont think it is the difference between him being shit tier and him being a top jungle pick. In all likelyhood this was just a case of no one tried him in jungle before M5.
Kennen: (last big buff): .09 ratio increase on w. .05 on e. 20 energy cost reduced at max rank on E. Nothing significant here.
Koggles: First time as the op (over a year ago): No buffs, just nerfs. Second time (Slightly more recent): 4 uptime increase on w, then reduced to 2. I contend all it did was get people to play him again, hence the reason for the revert- still used in Hannover after.
Lee Sin: IIRC he was considered shit for a good 3 months, even after the hotfixes. He wasnt played until they found the double damage e bug.
Morde: dont try to argue that. He was barely touched between his remake and the sheild gutting in September.
Morg: Was played before they overbuffed her.
Riven: We have argued this before. The hotfixes did not take her from shit tier to overpowered. Westrice did.
Skarner: Meh, proably true. 15 mana was lulzy overpowered. However, if you look at where he is now to where he was on release, it isnt too different, and he is still played in tourneys.
Vlad: Depends on if you give credit to salce playing him before the transfuse changes. I do.
Ali: You forgot about the roam meta where ali went from shit tier to god. Then the remake, then people stopped playing him after the subsequent nerfs, now Snoopeh jungles him.
Corki: Are you kidding? Corki disappeared for a good 6 months. He only came back recently when they threw a few "look I am still here!" changes at him.
Janna: No play for 6 months, although this was due to Soraka/sona being ridiculous.
Leona: Seeing WAY more play now than she ever has. Just look at Hannover.
Shyv: If this was true I wouldnt have had about 50 GD posts raving about shvyana prior to Kiev, then another 50 raging about how M5 made her popular.
Sion: Goes in and out constantly as people remember he is there. Happened a year ago, then it happened again like 3-4 months ago when regi picked him up again.
Yorick: Went from "trash tier" to picked in tournaments (again, I maintain that the buffs did not put him there, merely pushed him over the top, but even then people left him alone for a long time). Remember the IEM where he was banned near permanently so you couldnt run Vayne/yorick?
Champs cycle frequently at the whims of the community. What happens is people try to attach seeing them get buffed in patchnotes to returns to relevance, even if the changes are minute. It is one of the few ways you can actually gain credibility for playing a champion everyone considers useless, even if the changes dont do jack. Just like how you get flamed for playing champions who get non consequential nerfs .
i don't get your point. You're basically saying that champs have rotations of popularity. Which is common knowledge, and isn't even an issue exclusive to LoL, or hell exclusive to any kind of activity. That's just how large populations are.
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On March 16 2012 11:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Does anyone remember what you used to buy on jungles before people realized wriggles was good in the jungle? I distinctly remember never buying wriggles up until I started doing it occasionally on Shaco. I was thinking about this yesterday and I honestly cant remember since it was so long ago.
Did everyone just go Bloodrazer back then?
You got heart of gold back then, cuz it build out of cloth armor.
so the major schools was really bloodrazor or HoG
but of course back then the tankier slower jungles like mummy didnt really need bloodrazor so alot of them got hog, while shit like warwick got bloodrazor.
first hero i ever recall wriggles being suggested on was olaf, very shortly after he was released
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Oh if my argument got lost somewhere: I argued that Xerath wasnt weak because he was underplayed, he was just underplayed, like a lot of champions are. red_ then challenged me to put together a list of champions who were underplayed, but not weak. So I did. Then guitar challenged some of that list. So I rebutted.
Make sense?
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On March 16 2012 12:05 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 11:37 Two_DoWn wrote:+ Show Spoiler [wall of text] +Mundo: .03 base as, .3 as per level, .5 mr/lvl. Health cost on W cut by 10 at all levels. 10 sec on ulti. Biggest change: health cost on W. Significant, but I dont think it is the difference between him being shit tier and him being a top jungle pick. In all likelyhood this was just a case of no one tried him in jungle before M5.
Kennen: (last big buff): .09 ratio increase on w. .05 on e. 20 energy cost reduced at max rank on E. Nothing significant here.
Koggles: First time as the op (over a year ago): No buffs, just nerfs. Second time (Slightly more recent): 4 uptime increase on w, then reduced to 2. I contend all it did was get people to play him again, hence the reason for the revert- still used in Hannover after.
Lee Sin: IIRC he was considered shit for a good 3 months, even after the hotfixes. He wasnt played until they found the double damage e bug.
Morde: dont try to argue that. He was barely touched between his remake and the sheild gutting in September.
Morg: Was played before they overbuffed her.
Riven: We have argued this before. The hotfixes did not take her from shit tier to overpowered. Westrice did.
Skarner: Meh, proably true. 15 mana was lulzy overpowered. However, if you look at where he is now to where he was on release, it isnt too different, and he is still played in tourneys.
Vlad: Depends on if you give credit to salce playing him before the transfuse changes. I do.
Ali: You forgot about the roam meta where ali went from shit tier to god. Then the remake, then people stopped playing him after the subsequent nerfs, now Snoopeh jungles him.
Corki: Are you kidding? Corki disappeared for a good 6 months. He only came back recently when they threw a few "look I am still here!" changes at him.
Janna: No play for 6 months, although this was due to Soraka/sona being ridiculous.
Leona: Seeing WAY more play now than she ever has. Just look at Hannover.
Shyv: If this was true I wouldnt have had about 50 GD posts raving about shvyana prior to Kiev, then another 50 raging about how M5 made her popular.
Sion: Goes in and out constantly as people remember he is there. Happened a year ago, then it happened again like 3-4 months ago when regi picked him up again.
Yorick: Went from "trash tier" to picked in tournaments (again, I maintain that the buffs did not put him there, merely pushed him over the top, but even then people left him alone for a long time). Remember the IEM where he was banned near permanently so you couldnt run Vayne/yorick?
Champs cycle frequently at the whims of the community. What happens is people try to attach seeing them get buffed in patchnotes to returns to relevance, even if the changes are minute. It is one of the few ways you can actually gain credibility for playing a champion everyone considers useless, even if the changes dont do jack. Just like how you get flamed for playing champions who get non consequential nerfs . i don't get your point. You're basically saying that champs have rotations of popularity. Which is common knowledge, and isn't even an issue exclusive to LoL, or hell exclusive to any kind of activity. That's just how large populations are.
Yeah idk. I think twodown just likes to read himself argue.
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On March 16 2012 12:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
Oh if my argument got lost somewhere: I argued that Xerath wasnt weak because he was underplayed, he was just underplayed, like a lot of champions are. red_ then challenged me to put together a list of champions who were underplayed, but not weak. So I did. Then guitar challenged some of that list. So I rebutted.
Make sense?
he's really just a boring hero tbh
when i read about him i thought he'd be like an arcane mage, (stacking damage on subsequent spellcasts with stacking mana costs or something)
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EPT
