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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. ===== + Show Spoiler +If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name. - Neo 7:07 KST |
They're really bad @ spearthrowing over at riot lol, can't get the spear to fly straight.
For people who think that % true damage is broken(it wuz mentioned somewhere), do the math, 3 hits for 8% of your hp @ max rank will give her a whole 180 bonus damage vs a 2k hp target, not counting the flat true damage that's a bonus of 60/hit. When the ability is maxed. Not too great, no one maxes it first because it's not that good.
Vs a bruiser with lets say 3k hp that's 240dmg, that's 80 damage per shot.
Making it physical damage will barely change vs squishies. Removing it all together will barely do anything vs squishies.
Changing it to physical vs bruisers will make bruisers stronger and make the ability somewhat usefull.
Removing either the %hp or the flat true damage would make the ability fine, but the %true hp really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.
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On December 29 2011 20:20 JackDino wrote:
They're really bad @ spearthrowing over at riot lol, can't get the spear to fly straight.
For people who think that % true damage is broken(it wuz mentioned somewhere), do the math, 3 hits for 8% of your hp @ max rank will give her a whole 180 bonus damage vs a 2k hp target, not counting the flat true damage that's a bonus of 60/hit. When the ability is maxed. Not too great, no one maxes it first because it's not that good.
Vs a bruiser with lets say 3k hp that's 240dmg, that's 80 damage per shot.
Making it physical damage will barely change vs squishies. Removing it all together will barely do anything vs squishies.
Changing it to physical vs bruisers will make bruisers stronger and make the ability somewhat usefull.
Removing either the %hp or the flat true damage would make the ability fine, but the %true hp really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.
Not the issue anyways. It's the fact it's by far the most cost efficient steroid in the game, more than doubling the gold value of Tristana's Q, that's bugging me. That is, at least in my opinion, not something to overlook.
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On December 29 2011 20:38 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:20 JackDino wrote:
They're really bad @ spearthrowing over at riot lol, can't get the spear to fly straight.
For people who think that % true damage is broken(it wuz mentioned somewhere), do the math, 3 hits for 8% of your hp @ max rank will give her a whole 180 bonus damage vs a 2k hp target, not counting the flat true damage that's a bonus of 60/hit. When the ability is maxed. Not too great, no one maxes it first because it's not that good.
Vs a bruiser with lets say 3k hp that's 240dmg, that's 80 damage per shot.
Making it physical damage will barely change vs squishies. Removing it all together will barely do anything vs squishies.
Changing it to physical vs bruisers will make bruisers stronger and make the ability somewhat usefull.
Removing either the %hp or the flat true damage would make the ability fine, but the %true hp really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Not the issue anyways. It's the fact it's by far the most cost efficient steroid in the game, more than doubling the gold value of Tristana's Q, that's bugging me. That is, at least in my opinion, not something to overlook.
Nunu's blood boil is right near 2000 gold worth also (though nunu's kit sucks much worse than vaynes).
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On December 29 2011 21:17 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:38 Shiv. wrote:On December 29 2011 20:20 JackDino wrote:
They're really bad @ spearthrowing over at riot lol, can't get the spear to fly straight.
For people who think that % true damage is broken(it wuz mentioned somewhere), do the math, 3 hits for 8% of your hp @ max rank will give her a whole 180 bonus damage vs a 2k hp target, not counting the flat true damage that's a bonus of 60/hit. When the ability is maxed. Not too great, no one maxes it first because it's not that good.
Vs a bruiser with lets say 3k hp that's 240dmg, that's 80 damage per shot.
Making it physical damage will barely change vs squishies. Removing it all together will barely do anything vs squishies.
Changing it to physical vs bruisers will make bruisers stronger and make the ability somewhat usefull.
Removing either the %hp or the flat true damage would make the ability fine, but the %true hp really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Not the issue anyways. It's the fact it's by far the most cost efficient steroid in the game, more than doubling the gold value of Tristana's Q, that's bugging me. That is, at least in my opinion, not something to overlook. Nunu's blood boil is right near 2000 gold worth also (though nunu's kit sucks much worse than vaynes).
If Yango's calculations weren't off, her W is at 5610 gold, though. That's thrice as good. (THANKS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS.)
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On December 29 2011 13:23 TheYango wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yes Vayne's W doesn't make up a huge portion of her damage. Neither does any other steroid in the game
The thing about Vayne's W is that if you math out the gold value in terms of equivalent real AD, it has significantly higher gold value than even activatable steroids, such as Tristana's W, even if you account for the unreliability of having to hit 3 consecutive times.
To illustrate:
Consider an average tanky target HP lategame with 3000 HP and 150 armor. From a practical standpoint, this 150 armor is only actually worth about 70 armor, after ArPen marks and LW/10% ArPen mastery. This is a 41% damage reduction, which means that true damage is worth 70% more than plain AD.
The 8% max HP component of Vayne's W does 240 true damage to that 3k HP dude. Coupled with the 60 base damage, this is 300 damage, or 100 true damage per attack, which is worth the equivalent of 170 normal AD. 170 normal AD is worth 5610 gold (based on BF Sword which is 1650 gold for 50 AD), which is worth more than TWICE as much as the gold value of Tristana's Q (based on Recurve Bow, which is 40% aspd for 1050 gold). Put a different way, even if you only get to proc Vayne's W once every 7 attacks, it's still worth more gold in steroid value than Tristana's Q, and Tristana's Q isn't always on.
It's probably not on it's own what makes her strong, but when one of your skills is significantly stronger than all comparable skills on similar champions, it makes making your kit well rounded somewhat awkward.
This calculation leaves out the fact that Vayne's W does not scale with crit, which is significant. Gold value from the bonus AD from W should be compared to the gold value of on hit modifiers like Wit's End or Madred's Bloodrazor - they also do not scale with crit, hence the lower gold cost per AD. On hit AD modifiers are tricky to value in gold, so let us look at the end result instead.
Consider your case of a 3000 hp tank with 150 armor, resulting in an equivalent 170 AD gain per attack from W. Now let us compare Vayne to Tristana at at level 18, with an inventory consisting of Berserkers Greaves, Phantom Dancer, Infinity Edge and Last Whisper. (Standard AD carry runes, masteries etc.)
Damage per second:
Vayne without W: 695
Vayne with W: 959
Bonus dps from W: 264
Tristana without Q: 661
Tristana with Q: 915
Bonus dps from Q: 254
So Vayne's 264 are actually very close to Tristana's 254 making the steroids comparable. And don't forget the advantagous case for Vayne. For any target with lower hp/armor Tristana's Q will come out more valuable, and likewise any extra dps items purchased will add to Tristana's Q pulling ahead. And this is assuming max amount of procs from Vayne's W.
TL;DR
The above post left out the exponentially scaling properties of dps items.
Tristana's Q adds comparable or more dps than Vayne's W in most circumstances (unless the target is very tanky).
PS. TheYango I enjoy your posts as they are always informative.
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On December 29 2011 11:39 Nehsb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:21 57 Corvette wrote:On December 29 2011 10:34 Reggiegigas wrote:
975x2 for Maokai with his holiday skin. Not going to be able to gather the requisite IP for him. It's hella expensive, but I really like christmas trees. Charred Maokai is better, just saying. Edit: If anyone cares, these are my rune pages: AP TANK - Mpen reds, armour yellows, mr glyphs, health quints AP CARRY - Mpen reds, mana regen/lvl yellows, ap/lvl glyphs, flat ap quints TANKY AD (jungle mostly) - Apen reds, armour yellows, mr/lvl glyphs, aspeed quints RANGED AD (not finished) - Apen reds, hp/lvl yellows, mr/lvl glyphs, aspeed quints (empty page) GALIO - Mpen reds, hp/lvl yellows, mr glyphs, health quints (Invest heavily into armour, and a bit of MR, not many health items) SHEN TOP - Mpen reds, armour yellows, mr/lvl glyphs, armour quints (Smashgizmo's guide) RYZE (incomplete) - Mpen reds, mana regen/lvl yellows, mana glyphs, health quints JUNGLE MAOKAI - 2 Aspeed reds, 7 mpen reds, armour seals, mr/lvl glyphs, AP quints Any constructive critisizm about these? IMO movespeed quints are amazing on ryze. And are aspeed quints good on ranged ad? I don't really play ranged ad, but I was under the impression that ranged ad always went apen, ad, or movespeed as quints.
Mana regen/level are useless on him. He only runs out of mana very early but after that his builds are usually extremely mana heavy since his damage scales from it. After the first 2 mana items you just never ever run out. If you need mana then just go blue buff. its the only regen that really ceeps up with your spamming.
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Tristana's Q has downtime though.
Also situational things like killing an alistair with his ult up is something only vayne can do :3
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just had a game that I went 9/5/33 as top lane blitz, it feels good to feed your carries  .
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Viktor's laning seems really tight, yep. Tried him in some coops, he runs oom so fast if you ever try to play aggressively. I already noted that his mana/mp5 numbers were very lackluster from the wiki, but that's confirmed—I guess they did that to prevent Augment:Gravity rush for uber mana sustain, but that's quite weak right now.
Also I still don't see him as a good mid: Power Transfer has quite a bit of traval time, and it still has to bounce back to shield you. You can't trade with Annie for example because she'll unload Q-W even without a stun before you get the shield back.
His range seems quite low too, makes the stun a lot harder to hit that I'd think. Still fun nonetheless. Also, W+R makes for a really hard to discern battlefield. So much shit covering everybody (except for Cho, of course).
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On December 29 2011 23:25 Therealdevil wrote:
Tristana's Q has downtime though.
Also situational things like killing an alistair with his ult up is something only vayne can do :3
It does. And Vayne's W is only 60% efficient at 5 hits. 0% at 1 and 2 hits. Lots of things to factor in.
Vayne's ult steroid makes her do substantially more dps though.
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I would also consider that 150 armor is pretty damn low for a "tank". A ranged AD with Wriggles, armor seals and an Aegis on an ally already has ~120 armor. A lategame "tank" with 150 armor is something to laugh at.
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On December 29 2011 23:28 Bwaaaa wrote:just had a game that I went 9/5/33 as top lane blitz, it feels good to feed your carries .
Should be 33/5/9.
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On December 29 2011 23:28 Bwaaaa wrote:just had a game that I went 9/5/33 as top lane blitz, it feels good to feed your carries .
Feels better to carry your feeders
OHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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On December 29 2011 23:31 Alaric wrote:
Viktor's laning seems really tight, yep. Tried him in some coops, he runs oom so fast if you ever try to play aggressively. I already noted that his mana/mp5 numbers were very lackluster from the wiki, but that's confirmed—I guess they did that to prevent Augment:Gravity rush for uber mana sustain, but that's quite weak right now.
Also I still don't see him as a good mid: Power Transfer has quite a bit of traval time, and it still has to bounce back to shield you. You can't trade with Annie for example because she'll unload Q-W even without a stun before you get the shield back.
His range seems quite low too, makes the stun a lot harder to hit that I'd think. Still fun nonetheless. Also, W+R makes for a really hard to discern battlefield. So much shit covering everybody (except for Cho, of course).
The travel time on Power Transfer is a mixed blessing. The slow travel time means you can run up to an enemy under a tower, throw it at them, and be out of tower range before it lands/aggros. Combined with E you can throw a lot at someone under a tower without putting yourself in danger of taking tower shots (though you'd obviously be in danger of jungle ganks).
I think the W upgrade is underrated. I wouldn't rush it, but once laning is over the extra range and CDR are strong team fighting options. At capped CDR W's CD is 7.8 seconds, which is pretty absurd for an 800 range (augmented) AoE slow/stun. Between that and the previously mentioned tower harass I can imagine him making life fairly miserable for teams trying to defend a tower.
A few side notes for those curious about Viktor's mechanics:
W stacks even on people who have already been stunned (but not until the stun wears off). This means that 1) Cleansing the slow/stun just leads to new stacks being applied and 2) if you're caught in the W AoE the moment it's cast and don't escape you'll be reslowed once the stun wears off (though there's not enough time to restack a second stun).
R will automatically chase any target you cast it on until you otherwise redirect it via additional presses of R. This makes it fairly easy to use up until the target dies, at which point it will sit sullenly until you tell it to nom someone else. Also, it looks like this dude.
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It basically means aoe permaslow if you get Rylai's.
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Yeah, while Death is the obvious augment for maximum DPS I can see Gravity being the more usefull overall since W is such a nasty CC that also adresses Viktors key weakness: low range.
The Power augment is weird to me, it´s the defensive one but it gives the MS boost on his lowest ranged ability and it activates when you get the shield, aka the point when you WANT to trade hits.
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On December 29 2011 19:03 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 18:04 Mondieu wrote:On December 29 2011 15:38 wei2coolman wrote:On December 29 2011 07:34 DoXa wrote:On December 29 2011 07:02 wei2coolman wrote:On December 29 2011 06:56 Requizen wrote:
So I decided to treat myself to $20 worth of RP and the 300 extra, bringing me to 3600+. What should I do with it? I usually use IP boost. skins aren't important to me. Champion sales, like Vayne was on sale for 290RP a few weeks back, and usually she's a 6300IP champ, so totally got a great deal for her. Best use of RP in terms of content unlock is usually IP boost, and Rune page. IP boost is a waste of RP unless you play ~7hours a day. math and comparison made in a reddit post: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/nrjws/have_rp_and_want_champs_ip_boost_or_outright_buy/ Is it bad that when IP boost I do a 24 hour binge? lol EDIT: Usually after a midterm, and my friend doesn't have work, we section off 24 hours just for ip boost. we grind all day, SO MUCH IP. I think you're better off buying champions with RP when they're on sale. I doubt u farm more than 3k IP when you got the IP boost. that means over 30-50 wins, depending on your game durations. As a side note. I'm thinking of banning Soraka at ~1500 elo just because as an AD carry it seems I can't carry my team very well because I can't just faceroll my opponents. I always trade better, but at the end of the day we don't get kills. Buying champs with RP doesnt get you runes, buying IP boosts does:p
Clearly you don't play with me. Can usually get 6k IP in a day with IP boost, so around 3k extra from the IP boost,
EDIT: @Mondieu
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On December 30 2011 01:24 Unentschieden wrote:
Yeah, while Death is the obvious augment for maximum DPS I can see Gravity being the more usefull overall since W is such a nasty CC that also adresses Viktors key weakness: low range.
The Power augment is weird to me, it´s the defensive one but it gives the MS boost on his lowest ranged ability and it activates when you get the shield, aka the point when you WANT to trade hits.
Wait, are you joking me? That "e" and that ulti, and the giant aoe from his "w" (remember aoe only has to be 50% of it in the range) is "low range". Can't tell if trolling.
If anything, Viktor's strength is his long range poke, not to mention a lot of AoE damage, also a lot of his abilities makes it look he can kite a lot of people.
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Hmm, watched some streams, Viktor's W seems overpowered to me due to how easy it is to land the stun. His weaknesses(lack of range on Q/meh early game) may make up for it but because it is his initial release I doubt people know how to play him 100% yet(landing/poking E or ult etc).
We shall see.
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On December 29 2011 18:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
First impressions:
His laning is a problem.
His harass is much weaker than many current AP mids and his mana costs don't allow for constant harass. He also can't even clear minions easily without maxing his LAZOR first, which is a viable strategy but maxing Q first seems more natural/allows easier time of harassing with shield.
W is pretty good, range is kinda meh. No reason to max it above other damage abilities.
Damage is decent, problem is he takes a while to ramp up and by that time most other champs are stronger than him.
Ult is HELLA strong if you can follow someone with it while tossing out other spells at the same time. NOT easy to do.
Um...yeah. Main issue I see is his laning will kill him completely. He's strong in teamfights but he will have a hard time keeping up. His poke is really great.
Could be completely wrong about all of this analysis btw. Try him out for yourselves.
Edit: Kyuubicake streaming him right now, 5HITCOMBO/Navitar duo queue on her team? Fun times.
His harass should be much stronger than most.... Maybe he's probably best played as solo top or bot lane?
If anything, that power transfer is a really good pokemechanic, allows you to deal damage, while receiving less damage. Should be able to trade fairly evenly.
The main thing that I would say, from looking at the champion spotlight is that he lacks the ability to burst (early and mid game). That means he's almost always going to lose to a burst AP-Mid, and still lose to Anti-AP-Mid (Kass, and Morg). That's why I mentioned him being possibly more viable on solo top where you can out range bruisers, and possibly bottom as a support.
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EPT
