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United States47024 Posts
On December 12 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
My problem with getting an aegis as a jungler is that normally I can buy something that benefits the team more (IE an actual full tank item) that just lets me either kill everything or tank everything. The exception being champs that have an absurd amount of built in resists already like shyvana where an aegis is all you really need to bump your resists up to stupid levels.
Like my problem with aegis is that its a good item, but there really isnt a single role that feels good buying it. Support gets shurelias for the movespeed, jungle has better options (and at this point is damn near as gold starved as support), ap and ad carries arent gonna get it. To me, it seems like solo top tanky dps is realistically the best bet since they get the most farm for a class that benefits from aegis directly, but again, there are better options that bring more power for a tp dragon fight (ie damage or direct tank).
So ya. Its a good item. Its just IMO there is no decent option to pick one up outside a few edge cases.
What? Aegis is fantastic on junglers, particularly on 3rd/4th position junglers who won't be farming hard enough to see the gold for carry items. And what the hell are you talking about "an actual full tank item"? Aegis is more reliable survivability than virtually any other completed survivability item in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't waste gold on stuff like regen (which is redundant when virtually all junglers build a sustainability item in the jungle already) or weird offensive stuff like CDR or the Sunfire burn.
Compare the gain in defensive stats from Aegis + Negatron or Aegis + Chain Vest to Sunfire, Randuin, BVeil, FoN, etc.--Aegis blows them all out of the water at similar cost. You have to be making use of their niche utility (e.g. Randuin active), or have a kit that's overly synergistic with one of those items (e.g. Warwick and pure resist+CDR items) for them to be better. As far as a stable survivability option that's never bad, Aegis take the cake for junglers. It gives you stats you want and doesn't give you stats you don't want (the aura is basically free).
The only item that can potentially surpass Aegis is Warmog's because while Warmog's is giving you a poor mix of stats, a fully charged Warmog's has such high cost-effectiveness to make up for it. But this also means Warmog's is an item choice made with the expectation of carry-level farm--if you're not getting it fast enough and charging it all the way, it's not good enough to make up for the fact that pure HP + hp5 is a pretty shitty mix of stats. If you're playing 3rd position or lower, Aegis makes way more sense, especially since Aegis builds from extremely easy-to-buy components, rather than needing you to save 1k gold at once.
Honestly, freshly-completed Aegis makes me feel more unkillable than at any other stage of the game on most tanky junglers.
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Aegis is fantastic. There was some post on reddit a few months ago doing like all the math and it's one of the most cost efficient items in the game by itself, and I think becomes the *most* gold-efficient defense item once you give the aura to even a single teammate.
I also never really understood how good the active on Randuins was until I started playing Malphite and trying to time it between ground slam. Slow motion enemy team wololo.
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I prefer getting aegis over stark's if my team isn't way ahead because 20% lifesteal won't help your carries live if they don't do much damage or have to run around a lot in fights. It's also way, way cheaper. Stark's is usually the item I work towards but never complete late game, but the few times I have completed it it's like I pressed the extra god mode button for my team.
Also, Leblanc support scales into later game about as fine as anybody else. It just becomes less about the damage and more about having 4 seconds of slow, 4.4 seconds of snare, and 4 seconds of silence in a combo. You just chain your combo for CC rather than damage when an enemy dives and completely shut him down. You're a great oracle's carrier too if you're playing defensive cause even when you're roaming it takes a lot to pin down a roaming LB with double blink.
Her main problem is that Soraka/Sona are lametards and won't let you murder everything to death in duo lane unless you're really coordinated with your AD.
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Orianna support? Or you could just play sona who has more utility, damage, healing, auras, and doesn't need AP, and just put a ward in the brush.
Regarding aegis: it's an extremely good item in terms of pure effective hp as well as a team wide aura. If I'm playing udyr, and they have an AD carry like say graves who does a lot of just pure physical damage instead of say vayne where I want the hp regen and movement+attack speed slow more than EHP then I'll get it. I'll go like shurelyas+randuins for mobility and utility but in burst situations where I just want me and my team to survive their burst and win with superior longevity then aegis is the type of alternative.
Or you can go shurelyas+randuins+aegis and be totally unkillable if they have squishies so you don't need anything more than wits for damage.
It's the same with fon, sometimes I need magic resist but i don't need the regen and speed. Why not just get aegis instead? Cheaper, gives lots of armour and hp+resists better than spirit visage. (Which, IMO, is an overrated udyr item)
I think people going warmogs atmas feel like aegis is just weaker, but if they went like aegis+atmas+hexdrinker they'd have more damage and similar survivability on champs with shields or have a healer. Atmas is really good even at 2k health and aegis gives like 300 health as well.
And if you think the randuins active is good don't forget about the passive. I survived a kog maw with frozen mallet with malphite with like just force of nature for movement speed and I was like "how the hell did I get away from you??" and apparently the randuins passive slowed him so he couldn't chase me down. I was also chasing down a shaco who tried to BD with trinity udyr and I couldn't stay in range hitting him that long and I had no fucking idea how he got away and then I realized for whatever reason shaco had randuins after i used the active on him and he used it back on me LOL.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 13 2011 00:32 Slayer91 wrote:
I think people going warmogs atmas feel like aegis is just weaker, but if they went like aegis+atmas+hexdrinker they'd have more damage and similar survivability on champs with shields or have a healer. Atmas is really good even at 2k health and aegis gives like 300 health as well.
Warmog's/Atmas is good if you finish them. But not every game is the jungler going to be able to get lane-level farm (especially with the smaller gold income from the new jungle, which spreads out the gap in gold income between carry and supporting junglers much farther). Finishing Warmog's at 30 mins and charging it + having Atma's at 40 mins isn't going to do anyone any good.
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I hate valve got an email from valve basicly going DOTA 2 BETA! and then all it was, was a reminder that you can update your beta application.
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Is there a way to use Nunu now? His jungle's dawn slow (he can permaclear small camps, but any buff or gank will set him behind a lot), and while he's quite annoying mid (would have to try against certain champs, but good harass with E + sustain with Q and passive + mobility with W allow him to be somewhat of a bully if they can't just push the wave to your tower) he just doesn't scale well enough into lategame to funnel all that farm. And his sustain isn't enough to go top.
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Yes sona/soraka are better than every non-traditional support pick. But I wasn't saying Leblanc was better, only that support Leblanc actually *does* have a crap ton of CC and can lock down a single target longer than any other support even with no AP.
A ward in the bush doesn't counter Leblanc any more than it counters any other aggressive support. She doesn't need tons of AP to partake in duo lane murdering either. What kills support leblanc in lane is sustain and magic resist (hello soraka/sona).
Honestly botlane picks would be a lot more interesting without soraka and sona in the game.
edit: Alaric, Nhat Nyugen says support Nunu is sick and should be done more. Poland actually used it in WCG to great effect.
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Germany8679 Posts
On December 13 2011 00:49 Alaric wrote:
Is there a way to use Nunu now? His jungle's dawn slow (he can permaclear small camps, but any buff or gank will set him behind a lot), and while he's quite annoying mid (would have to try against certain champs, but good harass with E + sustain with Q and passive + mobility with W allow him to be somewhat of a bully if they can't just push the wave to your tower) he just doesn't scale well enough into lategame to funnel all that farm. And his sustain isn't enough to go top.
You can play him as a support in some situations, for example against some Vayne lanes.
His sustain is EASILY enough for top, he just doesn't do enough with solo lane farm.
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On December 12 2011 22:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
My problem with getting an aegis as a jungler is that normally I can buy something that benefits the team more (IE an actual full tank item) that just lets me either kill everything or tank everything. The exception being champs that have an absurd amount of built in resists already like shyvana where an aegis is all you really need to bump your resists up to stupid levels.
Like my problem with aegis is that its a good item, but there really isnt a single role that feels good buying it. Support gets shurelias for the movespeed, jungle has better options (and at this point is damn near as gold starved as support), ap and ad carries arent gonna get it. To me, it seems like solo top tanky dps is realistically the best bet since they get the most farm for a class that benefits from aegis directly, but again, there are better options that bring more power for a tp dragon fight (ie damage or direct tank).
So ya. Its a good item. Its just IMO there is no decent option to pick one up outside a few edge cases. What? Aegis is fantastic on junglers, particularly on 3rd/4th position junglers who won't be farming hard enough to see the gold for carry items. And what the hell are you talking about "an actual full tank item"? Aegis is more reliable survivability than virtually any other completed survivability item in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't waste gold on stuff like regen (which is redundant when virtually all junglers build a sustainability item in the jungle already) or weird offensive stuff like CDR or the Sunfire burn. Compare the gain in defensive stats from Aegis + Negatron or Aegis + Chain Vest to Sunfire, Randuin, BVeil, FoN, etc.--Aegis blows them all out of the water at similar cost. You have to be making use of their niche utility (e.g. Randuin active), or have a kit that's overly synergistic with one of those items (e.g. Warwick and pure resist+CDR items) for them to be better. As far as a stable survivability option that's never bad, Aegis take the cake for junglers. It gives you stats you want and doesn't give you stats you don't want (the aura is basically free). The only item that can potentially surpass Aegis is Warmog's because while Warmog's is giving you a poor mix of stats, a fully charged Warmog's has such high cost-effectiveness to make up for it. But this also means Warmog's is an item choice made with the expectation of carry-level farm--if you're not getting it fast enough and charging it all the way, it's not good enough to make up for the fact that pure HP + hp5 is a pretty shitty mix of stats. If you're playing 3rd position or lower, Aegis makes way more sense, especially since Aegis builds from extremely easy-to-buy components, rather than needing you to save 1k gold at once. Honestly, freshly-completed Aegis makes me feel more unkillable than at any other stage of the game on most tanky junglers.
See thats the problem I have with aegis on junglers- its a 3-4 item at best, far past when 12 armor and 15 mr feels optimal (Note I dont say it may not be optimal- it FEELS shitty to get late game, which is when you are getting that 3-4 item on a tank). Not to mention I personally feel there are better alternatives- warmogs, wits end, atmas, and randuins that may not be as cost effective (whatever that means) but are definitely effective in game.
It could just be a playstyle issue though. I play more like saint than I play like the odd one.
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I don't understand why sustain supports aren't banned more often. Banning Sona/Soraka/Alistar puts teams in a position where they either pick Taric, who falls off late game and is weak against heavy AP teams, or pick a non-sustain support. Without those three as options the playing field opens up considerably because you aren't gambling so hard by picking a non-sustain support.
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There are much more game-changing champs than ones who help a lane afk farm better.
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On December 13 2011 00:50 phyvo wrote:
Yes sona/soraka are better than every non-traditional support pick. But I wasn't saying Leblanc was better, only that support Leblanc actually *does* have a crap ton of CC and can lock down a single target longer than any other support even with no AP.
A ward in the bush doesn't counter Leblanc any more than it counters any other aggressive support. She doesn't need tons of AP to partake in duo lane murdering either. What kills support leblanc in lane is sustain and magic resist (hello soraka/sona).
Honestly botlane picks would be a lot more interesting without soraka and sona in the game.
edit: Alaric, Nhat Nyugen says support Nunu is sick and should be done more. Poland actually used it in WCG to great effect.
Instead of picking a non-traditional support, you can also pick a non-traditional AD carry. I went AD Leblanc a few times and it's actually decent enough that I would move it out of the troll category. She does suffer from bad range and craptastic base attack speed but is nearly impossible to dive especially paired with a traditional support like Sona.
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Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances.
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On December 12 2011 20:32 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 20:25 mr_tolkien wrote:
All this just reminds me how good Orianna support is :o
2 very long ranged CC, very good pokes early, and a shield/armour MR buff. I dont like ori support cause her base values aren't amazing. the cc is superb, but they're more or less soft cc and the hard cc of janna/ali/taric are arguably much better. not only that but she's a mana whore; philo stone/shurelias wont be nearly enough for her mana needs and as support you're not gonna get blue buff nor have enough gold to really itemize for mana outside of maybe a tear, catalyst tops. Even then you're probably still going to have mana problems w/out blue.
Chalice? If you have problems with Chalice/Reverie and optional mp5 seals, you're doing something really wrong. Chalice is money, and it only costs like 400g for the mana regen. Orianna's costs are about the same as Sona's, a little higher at 18, but she has less of a reason to cast 5 spells every 5 seconds.
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On December 13 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances.
AP Garen is fun. I would say AP anything is viable sub 700 Elo.
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Germany8679 Posts
On December 13 2011 01:10 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:41 TheYango wrote:On December 12 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
My problem with getting an aegis as a jungler is that normally I can buy something that benefits the team more (IE an actual full tank item) that just lets me either kill everything or tank everything. The exception being champs that have an absurd amount of built in resists already like shyvana where an aegis is all you really need to bump your resists up to stupid levels.
Like my problem with aegis is that its a good item, but there really isnt a single role that feels good buying it. Support gets shurelias for the movespeed, jungle has better options (and at this point is damn near as gold starved as support), ap and ad carries arent gonna get it. To me, it seems like solo top tanky dps is realistically the best bet since they get the most farm for a class that benefits from aegis directly, but again, there are better options that bring more power for a tp dragon fight (ie damage or direct tank).
So ya. Its a good item. Its just IMO there is no decent option to pick one up outside a few edge cases. What? Aegis is fantastic on junglers, particularly on 3rd/4th position junglers who won't be farming hard enough to see the gold for carry items. And what the hell are you talking about "an actual full tank item"? Aegis is more reliable survivability than virtually any other completed survivability item in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't waste gold on stuff like regen (which is redundant when virtually all junglers build a sustainability item in the jungle already) or weird offensive stuff like CDR or the Sunfire burn. Compare the gain in defensive stats from Aegis + Negatron or Aegis + Chain Vest to Sunfire, Randuin, BVeil, FoN, etc.--Aegis blows them all out of the water at similar cost. You have to be making use of their niche utility (e.g. Randuin active), or have a kit that's overly synergistic with one of those items (e.g. Warwick and pure resist+CDR items) for them to be better. As far as a stable survivability option that's never bad, Aegis take the cake for junglers. It gives you stats you want and doesn't give you stats you don't want (the aura is basically free). The only item that can potentially surpass Aegis is Warmog's because while Warmog's is giving you a poor mix of stats, a fully charged Warmog's has such high cost-effectiveness to make up for it. But this also means Warmog's is an item choice made with the expectation of carry-level farm--if you're not getting it fast enough and charging it all the way, it's not good enough to make up for the fact that pure HP + hp5 is a pretty shitty mix of stats. If you're playing 3rd position or lower, Aegis makes way more sense, especially since Aegis builds from extremely easy-to-buy components, rather than needing you to save 1k gold at once. Honestly, freshly-completed Aegis makes me feel more unkillable than at any other stage of the game on most tanky junglers. See thats the problem I have with aegis on junglers- its a 3-4 item at best, far past when 12 armor and 15 mr feels optimal (Note I dont say it may not be optimal- it FEELS shitty to get late game, which is when you are getting that 3-4 item on a tank). Not to mention I personally feel there are better alternatives- warmogs, wits end, atmas, and randuins that may not be as cost effective (whatever that means) but are definitely effective in game. It could just be a playstyle issue though. I play more like saint than I play like the odd one.
It seems more like a logic issue to me.
Small numbers on an item only matter if you run out of slots. Junglers and Supports usually have enough slots to fit an Aegis in even lategame. Otherwise all that matters is cost effectiveness. A concept you seem to have difficulty with, yet it is absolutely essential.
On December 13 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances.
LB has a 1.0 AD ratio on her autoattack, right from the start.
Garen can aquire a 1.0 AP ratio with 2 sec cooldown on his autoattack for 3000 gold.
Quite the difference imo.
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It's not playstyle it's just your imagination. It's not about building aegis as sacrificing carrying potential to help your team it's simply a really good item and you just haven't built it enough that you feel the difference. For a while I wasn't feeling aegis either, but recently it just feels so strong for 1925 even without the team wide buff.
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On December 13 2011 01:45 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 12 2011 22:41 TheYango wrote:On December 12 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
My problem with getting an aegis as a jungler is that normally I can buy something that benefits the team more (IE an actual full tank item) that just lets me either kill everything or tank everything. The exception being champs that have an absurd amount of built in resists already like shyvana where an aegis is all you really need to bump your resists up to stupid levels.
Like my problem with aegis is that its a good item, but there really isnt a single role that feels good buying it. Support gets shurelias for the movespeed, jungle has better options (and at this point is damn near as gold starved as support), ap and ad carries arent gonna get it. To me, it seems like solo top tanky dps is realistically the best bet since they get the most farm for a class that benefits from aegis directly, but again, there are better options that bring more power for a tp dragon fight (ie damage or direct tank).
So ya. Its a good item. Its just IMO there is no decent option to pick one up outside a few edge cases. What? Aegis is fantastic on junglers, particularly on 3rd/4th position junglers who won't be farming hard enough to see the gold for carry items. And what the hell are you talking about "an actual full tank item"? Aegis is more reliable survivability than virtually any other completed survivability item in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't waste gold on stuff like regen (which is redundant when virtually all junglers build a sustainability item in the jungle already) or weird offensive stuff like CDR or the Sunfire burn. Compare the gain in defensive stats from Aegis + Negatron or Aegis + Chain Vest to Sunfire, Randuin, BVeil, FoN, etc.--Aegis blows them all out of the water at similar cost. You have to be making use of their niche utility (e.g. Randuin active), or have a kit that's overly synergistic with one of those items (e.g. Warwick and pure resist+CDR items) for them to be better. As far as a stable survivability option that's never bad, Aegis take the cake for junglers. It gives you stats you want and doesn't give you stats you don't want (the aura is basically free). The only item that can potentially surpass Aegis is Warmog's because while Warmog's is giving you a poor mix of stats, a fully charged Warmog's has such high cost-effectiveness to make up for it. But this also means Warmog's is an item choice made with the expectation of carry-level farm--if you're not getting it fast enough and charging it all the way, it's not good enough to make up for the fact that pure HP + hp5 is a pretty shitty mix of stats. If you're playing 3rd position or lower, Aegis makes way more sense, especially since Aegis builds from extremely easy-to-buy components, rather than needing you to save 1k gold at once. Honestly, freshly-completed Aegis makes me feel more unkillable than at any other stage of the game on most tanky junglers. See thats the problem I have with aegis on junglers- its a 3-4 item at best, far past when 12 armor and 15 mr feels optimal (Note I dont say it may not be optimal- it FEELS shitty to get late game, which is when you are getting that 3-4 item on a tank). Not to mention I personally feel there are better alternatives- warmogs, wits end, atmas, and randuins that may not be as cost effective (whatever that means) but are definitely effective in game. It could just be a playstyle issue though. I play more like saint than I play like the odd one. It seems more like a logic issue to me. Small numbers on an item only matter if you run out of slots. Junglers and Supports usually have enough slots to fit an Aegis in even lategame. Otherwise all that matters is cost effectiveness. A concept you seem to have difficulty with, yet it is absolutely essential.
Buying an aegis actually does suck, inventory-wise. Boots GP5 GP5 Ruby Cloth Mantle is a full inventory, and unless you're either skipping out on HoG or not warding, you're going to run into a situation where you're sitting on effective gold for longer than you really want to. It's still a really good item, but the raw logistics of the damn thing makes it way harder to build than Reverie.
Honest suggestion? Change Aegis' combine from Ruby+Cloth+Mantle to HoG+Cloth+Mantle, up the health to 300 and lower the combine cost to either 450 (2k) or 550 (2100). HoG could stand building into a less niche item - so could the others, but this would be a good opportunity to do it for HoG in particular.
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On December 13 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances.
I thought it was incredibly stupid too but a post on the forums inspired me to try it and it worked better in-game than theorycraft would suggest. She felt weaker in terms of damage than a real carry like Cait, but her survivability is amazing. I mean, it's not good, but it's not AP Ashe or anything.
Kennen's W is very minimal outside of the laning phase. The reason AD Kennen is ok is because he has good range, incredible base stats for an AD, easy kiting and and can peel for himself.
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EPT
