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On December 13 2011 03:17 spinesheath wrote:
If gold/10 items had more build options, people would stack them even more religiously.
A nightmare.
I definitely agree that supports have a very large role in lanes and teamfights, to the point where I find myself buying efficient items for myself over having super heavy ward coverage, but I think that the use of gold/5 items wouldn't drastically change because almost everyone already buys them.
Anyone who wants to build a Philo into a Reverie or Miracle already does. Most of the people who buy HoG never even build it into anything. And Kage's and Avarice Blade could stand to be looked at as weak items, regardless. Adding them in to items as the secondary component (the Amp tome to WotA's revolver, the Cloak of Agility to PD's Zeal), might make them attractive enough to look at as build choices, and that's not exactly a terrible thing.
If anything, they'd be less damaging than the current Philo status right now, which lets you stack 5 Shurelya's auras without running into the same limitations that 5 WotAs or 5 Aegises would give.
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No I do not want to see Sona buying kages pick into wota. She already has incredible early damage with out buying any ap. Please don't give her a reason to get early ap.
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On December 13 2011 03:32 Sabin010 wrote:
No I do not want to see Sona buying kages pick into wota. She already has incredible early damage with out buying any ap. Please don't give her a reason to get early ap.
But AP isn't her best method of personal scaling or her best method of helping her team. Philo/Chalice would, in most cases, wind up doing more for her both in lane and in teamfights, because of the large costs associated with her skills.
Sona can already build a WotA after finishing Shurelya's, but given how mana dependent she is, I don't think rushing it would be viable for her at all. The earliest she could potentially get it would be after getting Philo, but even then, I think you'd be worse off than just being able to cast your spells twice as often.
e: if you replace 'Sona' with 'Soraka' there, I can see the concern. Soraka hurts like a motherfucker as a solo, but, again, there's nothing stopping a Soraka from rushing WotA already. To be honest, I just want them to have an excuse to nerf WotA's spellvamp percentage :V
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It's pretty hard to justify getting a second gp10 after philo stone a lot of the time. Philo stone in general is just a great laning item for all the support champs and you're going to be opening with faerie and 3 wards + 2 pots or 1 pink and 2 wards, so building into philo stone just happens pretty naturally. Shurelias is always a great item to get later on as well. But after that it's kinda iffy. Randuins is a great item but you are realistically never ever going to be able to afford it, and a lot of support champs should not get randuins at all because they should never be getting that close to the enemy to begin with. But even on the champs that do get into melee range like Alistar, it is far more realistic to build towards and get aegis and it will be more beneficial to do so for the entire team. But conversely, for those other champs that shouldn't be getting into melee range, the other gp10 item is kage... and kage sucks, period.
With gold quints and the gold masteries you are starting off with 5gp10 anyway. With dodge runes getting removed a lot of supports will probably switch over to the new gold seals coming out, and once that happens I think we'll see people taking a second gold item far less.
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Ap actually scales pretty well on sona, as it does on all supports, so i dont see anything 'technically' wrong with pick -> wota, except that you'll run oom (can prob be solved by mana masteries in util + mp5 runes), and you wont have revierie, which i have something of an obsession with, and buy on all my supports.
i just dont buy the idea that there's a single 'good' way to build supports, since they all have outrageous scaling, in nearly all stats and directions.
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United States37500 Posts
I don't see any reason for supports to every deviate from the Faerie Charm => Philo => HoG opening. Philo you've explained already and right after that, some HP is necessary so enemies who are starting to hit 6 don't burst you down. If anything, Gold Quints/Seals should help you get a HoG even earlier now, allowing it to pay for itself faster than before.
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Looks like South America is going to be split into a separate region from NA.
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On December 13 2011 03:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
I don't see any reason for supports to every deviate from the Faerie Charm => Philo => HoG opening. Philo you've explained already and right after that, some HP is necessary so enemies who are starting to hit 6 don't burst you down. If anything, Gold Quints/Seals should help you get a HoG even earlier now, allowing it to pay for itself faster than before.
Faerie charm-->Philo-->Kindlegem is what I usually prefer.
For the record i really like chalice+shurelyas on sona, because it gives you enough mana to perma spam W at 0 mana. I always get aegis if nobody else has it. Being tanky is important on sona because it lets you stay alive to spam your consistent damage and healing and auras more. You shouldn't look for damage coming your way but if you can get insta bursted by anyone then you're in bad shape to get in range to use your passive and Q.
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On December 13 2011 03:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
I don't see any reason for supports to every deviate from the Faerie Charm => Philo => HoG opening. Philo you've explained already and right after that, some HP is necessary so enemies who are starting to hit 6 don't burst you down. If anything, Gold Quints/Seals should help you get a HoG even earlier now, allowing it to pay for itself faster than before.
actually before i started my obsession with reverie, i built gp5 only about 1/2 the time. never had any problems winning/warding/protecting my ranged AD, so i never understood the gp5 stacking craze on supports.
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On December 13 2011 03:47 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 03:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
I don't see any reason for supports to every deviate from the Faerie Charm => Philo => HoG opening. Philo you've explained already and right after that, some HP is necessary so enemies who are starting to hit 6 don't burst you down. If anything, Gold Quints/Seals should help you get a HoG even earlier now, allowing it to pay for itself faster than before. actually before i started my obsession with reverie, i built gp5 only about 1/2 the time. never had any problems winning/warding/protecting my ranged AD, so i never understood the gp5 stacking craze on supports.
Philo is a thing because it's a stupid efficient item that builds into something good. HoG? I have no fucking idea, it's really just the best of a subpar to bad bunch. Support should be built around 2 or 3 midrange items, imo, instead of 50 wards in 30 minutes.
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Yep, you've convinced me to try rushing Reverie (using the gem for the hp) then Aegis.
Ghost Reverie Maokai still best engage tho (and so much fun against badly positioned AD carries).
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Man I love my farie charm 2 green 1 pink opening. So fun to say fuck your ward, enemy ward bitch. Then that's when you pull the lane and gank them.
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On December 13 2011 03:49 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 03:47 barbsq wrote:On December 13 2011 03:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
I don't see any reason for supports to every deviate from the Faerie Charm => Philo => HoG opening. Philo you've explained already and right after that, some HP is necessary so enemies who are starting to hit 6 don't burst you down. If anything, Gold Quints/Seals should help you get a HoG even earlier now, allowing it to pay for itself faster than before. actually before i started my obsession with reverie, i built gp5 only about 1/2 the time. never had any problems winning/warding/protecting my ranged AD, so i never understood the gp5 stacking craze on supports. Philo is a thing because it's a stupid efficient item that builds into something good. HoG? I have no fucking idea. Support should be built around 2 or 3 midrange items, imo, instead of 50 wards in 30 minutes.
actually for me, i ONLY get philo because of reverie. I dont give a shit about how efficient the stats are or w/e, i only want reverie because i love the active to death. before that, i did a lot of strange, and somewhat unusual stuff, not limited to emblem rushes (my frustration with faerie charm openings, and wanting rejuv bead openings to work), straight ward openings into dring stacks (which i got from uta), as well as some experiments with pseudo 'AD' and 'AP' carry builds (emblem -> bruta with janna was prob one of my favorites).
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I agree with barbsq,I look to turn my philo into reverie asap.Its a completely broken item.
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On December 13 2011 03:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
I don't see any reason for supports to every deviate from the Faerie Charm => Philo => HoG opening. Philo you've explained already and right after that, some HP is necessary so enemies who are starting to hit 6 don't burst you down. If anything, Gold Quints/Seals should help you get a HoG even earlier now, allowing it to pay for itself faster than before.
On Alistar I would rather build to aegis quicker. Buying the components to aegis gives you a lot of defense and once you finish aegis you get really strong for a little while. I might still take hog when I go cv/heal on other champs though, but forgoing flash for heal on supports is something I haven't really had enough experience with.
On December 13 2011 03:54 Sabin010 wrote:
Man I love my farie charm 2 green 1 pink opening. So fun to say fuck your ward, enemy ward bitch. Then that's when you pull the lane and gank them.
I do this every game with Soraka. Some supports tend to need the 2pots though.
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You don't need the farie charm on soraka on the opening, like Nhat from epik often doesn't take it. What does a soraka do with a couple mp5? I know it builds towards philo, but getting it early doesn't make it get you philo any faster and you'd need to pick Q on lvl 1 and spam that like crazy as soraka to OOM.
He often saves the gold entirely or just gets additional wards.
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Mp5 on Soraka = more E harass.
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On December 13 2011 04:21 daemir wrote:
You don't need the farie charm on soraka on the opening, like Nhat from epik often doesn't take it. What does a soraka do with a couple mp5? I know it builds towards philo, but getting it early doesn't make it get you philo any faster and you'd need to pick Q on lvl 1 and spam that like crazy as soraka to OOM.
Opening faerie does let you get your philo faster lol and it lets you stay longer in lane if needed, use E to harass or w/e etc.
The only good alternative would be all wards if you're planning to get a philo.
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On December 13 2011 03:42 NeoIllusions wrote:
I don't see any reason for supports to every deviate from the Faerie Charm => Philo => HoG opening. Philo you've explained already and right after that, some HP is necessary so enemies who are starting to hit 6 don't burst you down. If anything, Gold Quints/Seals should help you get a HoG even earlier now, allowing it to pay for itself faster than before.
Neo don't you remember what happened last time we had this discussion :|
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On December 13 2011 04:25 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 04:21 daemir wrote:
You don't need the farie charm on soraka on the opening, like Nhat from epik often doesn't take it. What does a soraka do with a couple mp5? I know it builds towards philo, but getting it early doesn't make it get you philo any faster and you'd need to pick Q on lvl 1 and spam that like crazy as soraka to OOM. Opening faerie does let you get your philo faster lol and it lets you stay longer in lane if needed, use E to harass or w/e etc. The only good alternative would be all wards if you're planning to get a philo.
No, it doesn't get your philo faster than saving the gold does, while saving the gold leaves you more potential options for a first back, say if your lane got a double kill and you swim in money you can opt for something totally different, like a HoG first to make laning safer after a good start.
How likely is it your AD doesn't require any mana back on lane? And everytime you have to do that you replenish your own mana. Not to mention the heal cd and mana cost mean you're quite hard pressed to oom yourself.
Realistically, how likely is it your laning as SORAKA suffers till the first back whether you have extra 3 mp5 or not? Naturally it isn't a big deal either way you do it, it's just a small thing you can do on soraka.
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EPT
