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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 13 2011 01:45 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 12 2011 22:41 TheYango wrote:On December 12 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
My problem with getting an aegis as a jungler is that normally I can buy something that benefits the team more (IE an actual full tank item) that just lets me either kill everything or tank everything. The exception being champs that have an absurd amount of built in resists already like shyvana where an aegis is all you really need to bump your resists up to stupid levels.
Like my problem with aegis is that its a good item, but there really isnt a single role that feels good buying it. Support gets shurelias for the movespeed, jungle has better options (and at this point is damn near as gold starved as support), ap and ad carries arent gonna get it. To me, it seems like solo top tanky dps is realistically the best bet since they get the most farm for a class that benefits from aegis directly, but again, there are better options that bring more power for a tp dragon fight (ie damage or direct tank).
So ya. Its a good item. Its just IMO there is no decent option to pick one up outside a few edge cases. What? Aegis is fantastic on junglers, particularly on 3rd/4th position junglers who won't be farming hard enough to see the gold for carry items. And what the hell are you talking about "an actual full tank item"? Aegis is more reliable survivability than virtually any other completed survivability item in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't waste gold on stuff like regen (which is redundant when virtually all junglers build a sustainability item in the jungle already) or weird offensive stuff like CDR or the Sunfire burn. Compare the gain in defensive stats from Aegis + Negatron or Aegis + Chain Vest to Sunfire, Randuin, BVeil, FoN, etc.--Aegis blows them all out of the water at similar cost. You have to be making use of their niche utility (e.g. Randuin active), or have a kit that's overly synergistic with one of those items (e.g. Warwick and pure resist+CDR items) for them to be better. As far as a stable survivability option that's never bad, Aegis take the cake for junglers. It gives you stats you want and doesn't give you stats you don't want (the aura is basically free). The only item that can potentially surpass Aegis is Warmog's because while Warmog's is giving you a poor mix of stats, a fully charged Warmog's has such high cost-effectiveness to make up for it. But this also means Warmog's is an item choice made with the expectation of carry-level farm--if you're not getting it fast enough and charging it all the way, it's not good enough to make up for the fact that pure HP + hp5 is a pretty shitty mix of stats. If you're playing 3rd position or lower, Aegis makes way more sense, especially since Aegis builds from extremely easy-to-buy components, rather than needing you to save 1k gold at once. Honestly, freshly-completed Aegis makes me feel more unkillable than at any other stage of the game on most tanky junglers. See thats the problem I have with aegis on junglers- its a 3-4 item at best, far past when 12 armor and 15 mr feels optimal (Note I dont say it may not be optimal- it FEELS shitty to get late game, which is when you are getting that 3-4 item on a tank). Not to mention I personally feel there are better alternatives- warmogs, wits end, atmas, and randuins that may not be as cost effective (whatever that means) but are definitely effective in game. It could just be a playstyle issue though. I play more like saint than I play like the odd one. It seems more like a logic issue to me. Small numbers on an item only matter if you run out of slots. Junglers and Supports usually have enough slots to fit an Aegis in even lategame. Otherwise all that matters is cost effectiveness. A concept you seem to have difficulty with, yet it is absolutely essential. Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances. LB has a 1.0 AD ratio on her autoattack, right from the start. Garen can aquire a 1.0 AP ratio with 2 sec cooldown on his autoattack for 3000 gold. Quite the difference imo.
Yeah, I would have to think that LB going ad is way better than a pure-physical champ going AP (ok, ult is magical but has no AP ratio). Sure, her auto range/attack animation aren't great, and her late-game stats like aspd and are pretty weak. LB at least has a fair bit of cc and great escape power/positioning.
Edit: OK, I think they are both troll builds, but LB is slightly less ridiculous.
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On December 13 2011 01:52 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:45 spinesheath wrote:On December 13 2011 01:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 12 2011 22:41 TheYango wrote:On December 12 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
My problem with getting an aegis as a jungler is that normally I can buy something that benefits the team more (IE an actual full tank item) that just lets me either kill everything or tank everything. The exception being champs that have an absurd amount of built in resists already like shyvana where an aegis is all you really need to bump your resists up to stupid levels.
Like my problem with aegis is that its a good item, but there really isnt a single role that feels good buying it. Support gets shurelias for the movespeed, jungle has better options (and at this point is damn near as gold starved as support), ap and ad carries arent gonna get it. To me, it seems like solo top tanky dps is realistically the best bet since they get the most farm for a class that benefits from aegis directly, but again, there are better options that bring more power for a tp dragon fight (ie damage or direct tank).
So ya. Its a good item. Its just IMO there is no decent option to pick one up outside a few edge cases. What? Aegis is fantastic on junglers, particularly on 3rd/4th position junglers who won't be farming hard enough to see the gold for carry items. And what the hell are you talking about "an actual full tank item"? Aegis is more reliable survivability than virtually any other completed survivability item in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't waste gold on stuff like regen (which is redundant when virtually all junglers build a sustainability item in the jungle already) or weird offensive stuff like CDR or the Sunfire burn. Compare the gain in defensive stats from Aegis + Negatron or Aegis + Chain Vest to Sunfire, Randuin, BVeil, FoN, etc.--Aegis blows them all out of the water at similar cost. You have to be making use of their niche utility (e.g. Randuin active), or have a kit that's overly synergistic with one of those items (e.g. Warwick and pure resist+CDR items) for them to be better. As far as a stable survivability option that's never bad, Aegis take the cake for junglers. It gives you stats you want and doesn't give you stats you don't want (the aura is basically free). The only item that can potentially surpass Aegis is Warmog's because while Warmog's is giving you a poor mix of stats, a fully charged Warmog's has such high cost-effectiveness to make up for it. But this also means Warmog's is an item choice made with the expectation of carry-level farm--if you're not getting it fast enough and charging it all the way, it's not good enough to make up for the fact that pure HP + hp5 is a pretty shitty mix of stats. If you're playing 3rd position or lower, Aegis makes way more sense, especially since Aegis builds from extremely easy-to-buy components, rather than needing you to save 1k gold at once. Honestly, freshly-completed Aegis makes me feel more unkillable than at any other stage of the game on most tanky junglers. See thats the problem I have with aegis on junglers- its a 3-4 item at best, far past when 12 armor and 15 mr feels optimal (Note I dont say it may not be optimal- it FEELS shitty to get late game, which is when you are getting that 3-4 item on a tank). Not to mention I personally feel there are better alternatives- warmogs, wits end, atmas, and randuins that may not be as cost effective (whatever that means) but are definitely effective in game. It could just be a playstyle issue though. I play more like saint than I play like the odd one. It seems more like a logic issue to me. Small numbers on an item only matter if you run out of slots. Junglers and Supports usually have enough slots to fit an Aegis in even lategame. Otherwise all that matters is cost effectiveness. A concept you seem to have difficulty with, yet it is absolutely essential. Buying an aegis actually does suck, inventory-wise. Boots GP5 GP5 Ruby Cloth Mantle is a full inventory, and unless you're either skipping out on HoG or not warding, you're going to run into a situation where you're sitting on effective gold for longer than you really want to. It's still a really good item, but the raw logistics of the damn thing makes it way harder to build than Reverie. Honest suggestion? Change Aegis' combine from Ruby+Cloth+Mantle to HoG+Cloth+Mantle, up the health up to 300, and lower the combine cost to either 450 (2k) or 550 (2100).
You can probably skip the HOG if you're building an aegis, though. Half the reason HoG&Philo are good has nothing to do with GP5 and everything to do with the fact that you're getting stats you need while ALSO getting GP5 (this is why kage's makes me mildly annoyed - it's horridly inefficient at the stats it gives, and supports aren't planning on building a DFG.)
My favorite support items to build are aegis wota and starks. Obviously I'm not going to get to build all of those in one gamae, though :< Unless it's like 60 mins long and other people are at 6 items so i get to pick up farm and stop buying oracle.
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On December 13 2011 01:53 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances. I thought it was incredibly stupid too but a post on the forums inspired me to try it and it worked better in-game than theorycraft would suggest. She felt weaker in terms of damage than a real carry like Cait, but her survivability is amazing. I mean, it's not good, but it's not AP Ashe or anything. Kennen's W is very minimal outside of the laning phase. The reason AD Kennen is ok is because he has good range, incredible base stats for an AD, easy kiting and and can peel for himself.
I've played AD Lux a couple of times, sure it can be fun but it's no good vs anyone who actually has a clue about this game(most people don't lOl) but it's still trolling>.>
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On December 13 2011 02:16 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:53 starfries wrote:On December 13 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances. I thought it was incredibly stupid too but a post on the forums inspired me to try it and it worked better in-game than theorycraft would suggest. She felt weaker in terms of damage than a real carry like Cait, but her survivability is amazing. I mean, it's not good, but it's not AP Ashe or anything. Kennen's W is very minimal outside of the laning phase. The reason AD Kennen is ok is because he has good range, incredible base stats for an AD, easy kiting and and can peel for himself. I've played AD Lux a couple of times, sure it can be fun but it's no good vs anyone who actually has a clue about this game(most people don't lOl) but it's still trolling>.>
yeah AD Lux and support Lux are pretty bad imo, unless you're going for a burst damage bot lane.
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It occurs to me that I listed off all the remotely viable support champions in the last thread and no one bothered to point out that I didn't list Zilean. </random>
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On December 13 2011 02:00 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:52 Niton wrote:On December 13 2011 01:45 spinesheath wrote:On December 13 2011 01:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 12 2011 22:41 TheYango wrote:On December 12 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
My problem with getting an aegis as a jungler is that normally I can buy something that benefits the team more (IE an actual full tank item) that just lets me either kill everything or tank everything. The exception being champs that have an absurd amount of built in resists already like shyvana where an aegis is all you really need to bump your resists up to stupid levels.
Like my problem with aegis is that its a good item, but there really isnt a single role that feels good buying it. Support gets shurelias for the movespeed, jungle has better options (and at this point is damn near as gold starved as support), ap and ad carries arent gonna get it. To me, it seems like solo top tanky dps is realistically the best bet since they get the most farm for a class that benefits from aegis directly, but again, there are better options that bring more power for a tp dragon fight (ie damage or direct tank).
So ya. Its a good item. Its just IMO there is no decent option to pick one up outside a few edge cases. What? Aegis is fantastic on junglers, particularly on 3rd/4th position junglers who won't be farming hard enough to see the gold for carry items. And what the hell are you talking about "an actual full tank item"? Aegis is more reliable survivability than virtually any other completed survivability item in the game, due to the fact that it doesn't waste gold on stuff like regen (which is redundant when virtually all junglers build a sustainability item in the jungle already) or weird offensive stuff like CDR or the Sunfire burn. Compare the gain in defensive stats from Aegis + Negatron or Aegis + Chain Vest to Sunfire, Randuin, BVeil, FoN, etc.--Aegis blows them all out of the water at similar cost. You have to be making use of their niche utility (e.g. Randuin active), or have a kit that's overly synergistic with one of those items (e.g. Warwick and pure resist+CDR items) for them to be better. As far as a stable survivability option that's never bad, Aegis take the cake for junglers. It gives you stats you want and doesn't give you stats you don't want (the aura is basically free). The only item that can potentially surpass Aegis is Warmog's because while Warmog's is giving you a poor mix of stats, a fully charged Warmog's has such high cost-effectiveness to make up for it. But this also means Warmog's is an item choice made with the expectation of carry-level farm--if you're not getting it fast enough and charging it all the way, it's not good enough to make up for the fact that pure HP + hp5 is a pretty shitty mix of stats. If you're playing 3rd position or lower, Aegis makes way more sense, especially since Aegis builds from extremely easy-to-buy components, rather than needing you to save 1k gold at once. Honestly, freshly-completed Aegis makes me feel more unkillable than at any other stage of the game on most tanky junglers. See thats the problem I have with aegis on junglers- its a 3-4 item at best, far past when 12 armor and 15 mr feels optimal (Note I dont say it may not be optimal- it FEELS shitty to get late game, which is when you are getting that 3-4 item on a tank). Not to mention I personally feel there are better alternatives- warmogs, wits end, atmas, and randuins that may not be as cost effective (whatever that means) but are definitely effective in game. It could just be a playstyle issue though. I play more like saint than I play like the odd one. It seems more like a logic issue to me. Small numbers on an item only matter if you run out of slots. Junglers and Supports usually have enough slots to fit an Aegis in even lategame. Otherwise all that matters is cost effectiveness. A concept you seem to have difficulty with, yet it is absolutely essential. Buying an aegis actually does suck, inventory-wise. Boots GP5 GP5 Ruby Cloth Mantle is a full inventory, and unless you're either skipping out on HoG or not warding, you're going to run into a situation where you're sitting on effective gold for longer than you really want to. It's still a really good item, but the raw logistics of the damn thing makes it way harder to build than Reverie. Honest suggestion? Change Aegis' combine from Ruby+Cloth+Mantle to HoG+Cloth+Mantle, up the health up to 300, and lower the combine cost to either 450 (2k) or 550 (2100). You can probably skip the HOG if you're building an aegis, though. Half the reason HoG&Philo are good has nothing to do with GP5 and everything to do with the fact that you're getting stats you need while ALSO getting GP5 (this is why kage's makes me mildly annoyed - it's horridly inefficient at the stats it gives, and supports aren't planning on building a DFG.) My favorite support items to build are aegis wota and starks. Obviously I'm not going to get to build all of those in one gamae, though :< Unless it's like 60 mins long and other people are at 6 items so i get to pick up farm and stop buying oracle.
I think Philo is good regardless of stats, but I don't think I'd build a pure health item earlygame without the gold/5 attachment. More than anything, though, I feel like the gold/5 items as a group and auras as a group could stand to see a rebalancing as a whole. Philo being the only gp5 item to build into 2 items is dumb!
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On December 13 2011 02:26 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 02:16 JackDino wrote:On December 13 2011 01:53 starfries wrote:On December 13 2011 01:38 JackDino wrote:
Aegis is also great if the enemy has a lot of mixed damage and you need a bit of both resistances.
AD Leblanc is, no offence, incredibly stupid. Unless you want to troll, but then you shouldn't move it out of the troll category. Why would you build AD on someone who has 0 synergy with AD. Kennen's W atleast scales with AD(or his E can't remember) and he can play stunbot.
It's like playing AP Garen with a lichbane/DFG. Sure it's fun, but it's not really effective, though it's actually better than ad Leblanc.
Lebonk has nothing going for her other than ok-ish kiting. If you want a non traditional AD carry pick Annie. Great Range, has a stun and free resistances. I thought it was incredibly stupid too but a post on the forums inspired me to try it and it worked better in-game than theorycraft would suggest. She felt weaker in terms of damage than a real carry like Cait, but her survivability is amazing. I mean, it's not good, but it's not AP Ashe or anything. Kennen's W is very minimal outside of the laning phase. The reason AD Kennen is ok is because he has good range, incredible base stats for an AD, easy kiting and and can peel for himself. I've played AD Lux a couple of times, sure it can be fun but it's no good vs anyone who actually has a clue about this game(most people don't lOl) but it's still trolling>.> yeah AD Lux and support Lux are pretty bad imo, unless you're going for a burst damage bot lane.
Support Lux is pretty good depending on your partner, you can root anyone who wants to be agressive and do quite some dmg and you can possibly save some gold on wards:p. @ 6, if you root someone it usually is a kill.
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On December 13 2011 01:52 Niton wrote:
Buying an aegis actually does suck, inventory-wise. Boots GP5 GP5 Ruby Cloth Mantle is a full inventory, and unless you're either skipping out on HoG or not warding, you're going to run into a situation where you're sitting on effective gold for longer than you really want to. It's still a really good item, but the raw logistics of the damn thing makes it way harder to build than Reverie.
Honest suggestion? Change Aegis' combine from Ruby+Cloth+Mantle to HoG+Cloth+Mantle, up the health to 300 and lower the combine cost to either 450 (2k) or 550 (2100). HoG could stand building into a less niche item - so could the others, but this would be a good opportunity to do it for HoG in particular.
Did you see my "what does a good support do" post earlier? Don't pretend that double gold/10 was mandatory for supports for some reason. It's perfectly reasonable to go straight for Aegis without a single gold/10 item if you don't need any of the gold/10 items for a good reason (Philo for the mana regen and building Reverie, HoG for the HP but you are building Aegis and Kindlegem >>> HoG anyways).
You also know how it's possible to buy a T2 item without buying every single part at first?
This goddamn gold/10 on supports crap is getting really annoying...
Here's how you decide whether to buy a specific gold/10 item or not:
Will you build something from the gold/10 item in the near future (not after you spent another 4000 gold)?
If yes, buy that gold/10 item.
Will you not die from holding an inefficient item for an extended period of time, and will it not have a significant impact on your performance if you hold said item during that duration?
If yes, buy that gold/10 item.
But how often does the second point really occur? That HoG could be a Kindlegem, already improving your performance, and leading to an earlier Reverie which has a HUGE impact. Now if you're a GP top, can't die and won't leave the lane for the next 20 minutes, sure that's a different thing. But don't tell me you won't be involved in fights from minute 10 to 30 as a support.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 13 2011 02:36 spinesheath wrote:
But how often does the second point really occur? That HoG could be a Kindlegem, already improving your performance, and leading to an earlier Reverie which has a HUGE impact. Now if you're a GP top, can't die and won't leave the lane for the next 20 minutes, sure that's a different thing. But don't tell me you won't be involved in fights from minute 10 to 30 as a support.
Not to mention that getting your 2nd gp10 at 10 minutes on a support is EXTREMELY ambitious.
Hell if you're warding proactively, you'll be lucky to have your 1st gp10 at 10 mins if no kills have happened.
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On December 13 2011 02:36 spinesheath wrote:
Did you see my "what does a good support do" post earlier? Don't pretend that double gold/10 was mandatory for supports for some reason. It's perfectly reasonable to go straight for Aegis without a single gold/10 item if you don't need any of the gold/10 items for a good reason (Philo for the mana regen and building Reverie, HoG for the HP but you are building Aegis and Kindlegem >>> HoG anyways).
You also know how it's possible to buy a T2 item without buying every single part at first?
This goddamn gold/10 on supports crap is getting really annoying...
Here's how you decide whether to buy a specific gold/10 item or not:
Will you build something from the gold/10 item in the near future (not after you spent another 4000 gold)?
If yes, buy that gold/10 item.
Will you not die from holding an inefficient item for an extended period of time, and will it not have a significant impact on your performance if you hold said item during that duration?
If yes, buy that gold/10 item.
But how often does the second point really occur? That HoG could be a Kindlegem, already improving your performance, and leading to an earlier Reverie which has a HUGE impact. Now if you're a GP top, can't die and won't leave the lane for the next 20 minutes, sure that's a different thing. But don't tell me you won't be involved in fights from minute 10 to 30 as a support.
It's not mandatory. But because of support scaling, it's also often a very strong choice. It's rarer for me to buy a HoG than a Philo, but it's very obvious as to why it is powerful. The issue I have with Gold/10 in general, though, is that it feels bad to buy any of the items period if you might have to teamfight. Even Philo is really pretty weak for actual teamfighting, since the bulk of its stats are in a true-passive stat (HP5). If I had a second option that wasn't some endgame (HoG, Avarice) or niche (Kage's) item on the other Gold/10 items, I think i'd wind up looking at them way more than I currently do.
As a stat, though, it feels like Gold/10itself is simultaneously not that good, but also good enough to choke out pretty almost all the other options in the 1-2k gold range (except for Reverie, which builds out of Philo). Chalice, Spirit Visage, Fiendish Codex, Glacial Shroud and Warden's Mail are all items that would be really interesting choices for a lot of champions, but the belief that gold/10 is so good (which is somewhat correct) keeps them from seeing a lot of early play. A big part of me would like to see the game without those items entirely, to see what kind of strategies evolved, but i'm not sure that'll ever happen.
Failing the actual removal, I think working the current Gold/10 items into more recipes might work. Add HoG to Aegis, Kage's to WotA and Avarice Blade to PD (just as examples), and you might see people debating what they wanted to get first more than you do now.
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What's with all these trynda players all of sudden, there's like 1 in every game but most of them are really bad :/, has some famous streamer been spamming trynd games or smth?
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He's getting nerfed tomorrow. So everybody thinks they need to play the op champion before it becomes un-op.
Edit: Similarly to the few days before the gunblade nerf I was random locking and building two on everybody.
Edit2: And with the gold/10 nerf. The few days before I was building two philos on everybody.
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If you've ever played him and crit your lane opponent for 180+ damage at lvl1, you'll see why trynd is so fun to play lol
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On December 13 2011 03:06 JackDino wrote:
What's with all these trynda players all of sudden, there's like 1 in every game but most of them are really bad :/, has some famous streamer been spamming trynd games or smth?
I'm more concerned about how much more popular Shaco suddenly became within like a 2-3 week period. It went from never seeing him ever to seeing him like 1/4 - 1/3 of my games. Conversely, Nocturne just completely disappeared off the map after the nerf on his E. I've been literally the only Nocturne player I've seen in my games for a really long while now.
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Been kind of away from the LoL scene last few months, has there been any changes to irelia or her opposite toplanes that affects her item/mastery/rune build?
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On December 13 2011 03:08 Haemonculus wrote:
If you've ever played him and crit your lane opponent for 180+ damage at lvl1, you'll see why trynd is so fun to play lol
That happened to me as Jax, and I pressed W while autoing him and you'll see why Jax is more fun to play lol.
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New masteries make going 21 utility really bad. I've been using an 82 mr rune page at level 1 vs fizz rumble and akali. thats about it.
Edit: With regards to Irelia in the past few months.
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On December 13 2011 03:10 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 03:06 JackDino wrote:
What's with all these trynda players all of sudden, there's like 1 in every game but most of them are really bad :/, has some famous streamer been spamming trynd games or smth? I'm more concerned about how much more popular Shaco suddenly became within like a 2-3 week period. It went from never seeing him ever to seeing him like 1/4 - 1/3 of my games. Conversely, Nocturne just completely disappeared off the map after the nerf on his E. I've been literally the only Nocturne player I've seen in my games for a really long while now.
i wouldn't be concerned about shaco until people stop sucking with him first
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On December 13 2011 02:59 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 02:36 spinesheath wrote:
Did you see my "what does a good support do" post earlier? Don't pretend that double gold/10 was mandatory for supports for some reason. It's perfectly reasonable to go straight for Aegis without a single gold/10 item if you don't need any of the gold/10 items for a good reason (Philo for the mana regen and building Reverie, HoG for the HP but you are building Aegis and Kindlegem >>> HoG anyways).
You also know how it's possible to buy a T2 item without buying every single part at first?
This goddamn gold/10 on supports crap is getting really annoying...
Here's how you decide whether to buy a specific gold/10 item or not:
Will you build something from the gold/10 item in the near future (not after you spent another 4000 gold)?
If yes, buy that gold/10 item.
Will you not die from holding an inefficient item for an extended period of time, and will it not have a significant impact on your performance if you hold said item during that duration?
If yes, buy that gold/10 item.
But how often does the second point really occur? That HoG could be a Kindlegem, already improving your performance, and leading to an earlier Reverie which has a HUGE impact. Now if you're a GP top, can't die and won't leave the lane for the next 20 minutes, sure that's a different thing. But don't tell me you won't be involved in fights from minute 10 to 30 as a support. It's not mandatory. But because of support scaling, it's also often a very strong choice. It's rarer for me to buy a HoG than a Philo, but it's very obvious as to why it is powerful. The issue I have with Gold/10 in general, though, is that it feels bad to buy any of the items period if you might have to teamfight. Even Philo is really pretty weak for actual teamfighting, since the bulk of its stats are in a true-passive stat (HP5). If I had a second option that wasn't some endgame (HoG, Avarice) or niche (Kage's) item on the other Gold/10 items, I think i'd wind up looking at them way more than I currently do. As a stat, though, it feels like Gold/10itself is simultaneously not that good, but also good enough to choke out pretty almost all the other options in the 1-2k gold range (except for Reverie, which builds out of Philo). Chalice, Spirit Visage, Fiendish Codex, Glacial Shroud and Warden's Mail are all items that would be really interesting choices for a lot of champions, but the belief that gold/10 is so good (which is somewhat correct) keeps them from seeing a lot of early play. A big part of me would like to see the game without those items entirely, to see what kind of strategies evolved, but i'm not sure that'll ever happen. Failing the actual removal, I think working the current Gold/10 items into more recipes might work. Add HoG to Aegis, Kage's to WotA and Avarice Blade to PD (just as examples), and you might see people debating what they wanted to get first more than you do now.
Why do you have an issue with gold/10 items being bad for teamfighting? That's the whole point. You get gold/10, but you lose out on combat strength. The common opinion seems to be that supports can't improve their teamfight impact anyways (which is plain wrong), and thus it would be fine to generate gold on them which you can put into wards for your team.
If gold/10 items had more build options, people would stack them even more religiously.
A nightmare.
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Reverie is a monster of an Item in team fights. Makes your whole team ghost after some one.
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EPT
