EPT[Patch 1.0.0.130: Volibear] General Discussion - Page 195
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On December 12 2011 17:14 sob3k wrote: The problem with Starks is that while it gives great sustain, it cost so much and gives so little general survivability in a straight up fight (cant build it first), that by the time you would get one the laning phase is over and the sustain isn't nearly as useful. This sure has never been a problem for me. And I build Stark's on supports a lot. It doesn't give you protection against burst, but it makes your allies never die. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
Otherwise you're so squishy you straight up die. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
That being said, it should be taken more often on bruisers in competitive play. Nothing on Starks is wasted for an AD bruiser and it will benefit your range AD as well. The build-up to starks also isnt that bad either. Emblem is good for lane sustain and recurve can be nice for more deeps. Wriggles is taken much more often for the lane sustain, but I can definitely see Emblem trumping Wriggles in terms of sustain. Wriggles gives 30 armor, 23 AD, 15% lifesteal, and the ward for 1600g. Emblem gives 10 hp/5, 17% lifesteal for 800g. For half the price of wriggles, you get more lifesteal and hp/5. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On December 12 2011 17:40 BlackPaladin wrote: Yeah you need to actually be good with support and not get caught with poor positioning if you build starks on support :p Otherwise you're so squishy you straight up die. supports are so squishy they straight up die anyway though. been getting starks recently on my supports or atleast emblem, its fairly good imo | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
On December 12 2011 17:40 Ryuu314 wrote: That being said, it should be taken more often on bruisers in competitive play. Nothing on Starks is wasted for an AD bruiser and it will benefit your range AD as well. The build-up to starks also isnt that bad either. Emblem is good for lane sustain and recurve can be nice for more deeps. Wriggles is taken much more often for the lane sustain, but I can definitely see Emblem trumping Wriggles. Wriggles gives 30 armor, 23 AD, 15% lifesteal, and the ward for 1600g. Emblem gives 10 hp/5, 17% lifesteal for 800g. For half the price of wriggles, you get more lifesteal and hp/5. actually that sounds quite nice, especially on someone like Irelia who really likes attack speed. it's a little awkward though since I really like opening cloth/5. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 12 2011 18:24 starfries wrote: actually that sounds quite nice, especially on someone like Irelia who really likes attack speed. it's a little awkward though since I really like opening cloth/5. Well currently cloth/5 can be followed up into mercs, esp. on irelia since she has innate cc reduction anyways. After dodge removal I have no idea. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 12 2011 18:20 arb wrote: supports are so squishy they straight up die anyway though. been getting starks recently on my supports or atleast emblem, its fairly good imo I tend to build tanky-support, mostly because it's the best way to get the most utility out of support imo. Support with sustain is much better than a support that lasts only 1 second. Ranuins/AOTL/Abyssal scepter. Warmogs if I can afford it. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On December 12 2011 18:38 wei2coolman wrote: I tend to build tanky-support, mostly because it's the best way to get the most utility out of support imo. Support with sustain is much better than a support that lasts only 1 second. Ranuins/AOTL/Abyssal scepter. Warmogs if I can afford it. So you're taking a solo lane and not buying any wards? | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On December 12 2011 18:38 wei2coolman wrote: I tend to build tanky-support, mostly because it's the best way to get the most utility out of support imo. Support with sustain is much better than a support that lasts only 1 second. Ranuins/AOTL/Abyssal scepter. Warmogs if I can afford it. You have not yet understood the concept "support". 1) A good support is a champ that is effective without a lot of gold and levels. 2) A good support funnels most of his gold and possibly some experience away from himself and towards the team. That's pretty much it. Buying wards is just a way to achieve 2), running CV is not actually directly related to playing a support, making calls or taking timers is not related to playing support at all. Some examples how to achieve 1) Champs with lots of CC and high base values on skills are naturally fit for supports. Janna for example is mostly a ton of CC, and an AD buff that doesn't scale. Items barely do anything. Soraka has high base values on her heals and especially on the Armor buff. Some champs need to be played in a special way to be fit as supports. Nunu for example can be a great support if the enemy anti-carries are all autoattackers; he just sits next to the ranged AD and snowballs any dangerous targets. His ult is just used for the slow as well. A non-support nunu would typically try to kill the enemy ranged AD or land a big ult, you can't do that as support Nunu. Maokai is another potential support similar to Nunu. LeBlanc can be played as a support because she mainly has her earlygame, and that earlygame is pretty damn strong without any gold. Lategame she is even weaker than usual, though. But she still has enough mobility and burst damage to finish people off after they took some damage. She doesn't need a lot of gold to kill a ranged AD at 30% HP. Some examples how to achieve 2) Don't take a cs if your allies can get it. Don't take a kill if it is absolutely clear and safe to wait for someone else to take it. Buy wards so that your allies don't have to. Buy aura items or Shurelya's Reverie. Why are supports running CV? (not that they still should, but that's a different issue) not much gold for defense items => most supports are squishy => most supports position relatively safely. That makes combat summoners less effective on them. buy wards for team => need to check brushes before you can go there and ward => convenient to have CV. Notice that "buy gold/10 items" does not follow from either of these 2 rules. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
2 very long ranged CC, very good pokes early, and a shield/armour MR buff. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 12 2011 20:25 mr_tolkien wrote: All this just reminds me how good Orianna support is :o 2 very long ranged CC, very good pokes early, and a shield/armour MR buff. I dont like ori support cause her base values aren't amazing. the cc is superb, but they're more or less soft cc and the hard cc of janna/ali/taric are arguably much better. not only that but she's a mana whore; philo stone/shurelias wont be nearly enough for her mana needs and as support you're not gonna get blue buff nor have enough gold to really itemize for mana outside of maybe a tear, catalyst tops. Even then you're probably still going to have mana problems w/out blue. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On December 12 2011 12:18 Bwaaaa wrote: Ok so I got thinking last night about what is the best start for a standard ap caster like annie or brand so I listed the 4 standard starts below. 3 Doran's Rings Gold: 1425 Stats: 300 health, 45 ap, 15 mp5 and 3 item slots. 4 Doran's Rings Gold: 1900 Stats: 400 health, 60ap, 20mp5 and 4 item slots. ROA Gold: 3035 Stats: 450+180 health, 525+200 mana, 60+20ap, 250 health and 200 mana restored on each lvl and 1 item slot. Morello's Evil Tome Gold: 2350 Stats: 75ap, 12mp5, 20% cdr and 1 item slot. Take what you will from the stats, I have no real idea why I just did that. I know I'm probably late to the party (just trying to catch up what happened in GD last night and I'm replying before actually finishing to do so), but AT LEAST 2 examples of this are not standard in my book. 4 Doran's is basically never seen, just because it takes up too much slots and delays your actualy items by such a significant amount. Morello's is basically never seen on AP Carries, because blue buff+blue elixir pretty much caps CDR, so a lot of stats on Morello's would be wasted. RoA is good, but I think there's a limited amount of APs who make better use of it than of Rabadon's. For what it's worth, I think the most standard start for casters is Boots 3 Pots -> 2 Doran's -> Sorc Shoes -> Deathcap. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On December 12 2011 20:32 Ryuu314 wrote: I dont like ori support cause her base values aren't amazing. the cc is superb, but they're more or less soft cc and the hard cc of janna/ali/taric are arguably much better. not only that but she's a mana whore; philo stone/shurelias wont be nearly enough for her mana needs and as support you're not gonna get blue buff nor have enough gold to really itemize for mana outside of maybe a tear, catalyst tops. Even then you're probably still going to have mana problems w/out blue. Just go 6MP5/lvl and 3MP5 flat yellows and you're good to go :o Her base damage on Q is very high btw, if you only harass with this you have absolutely no problem to shield/speed up your carry in case of fights. And her ult is just so powerful when she roams around mid/top. 850 range hard CC followed by a slow and a speed up of your teammate is just stupid, you get a kill EVERY gank if you come by a non-warded path. Late game, she scales very well if you have a strong front lane, she has high disruptive power, and doesn't need to get in dangerous range to use it, so she doesn't need any tankiness ! She's just awesome :D | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
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seRapH
United States9807 Posts
I imagine it'd be pretty much the same thing as a lux support. (also there's 5 "standard" supports) | ||
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ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
On December 12 2011 22:28 epoc wrote: Yeah I wonder too why we haven't seen orianna support much. Sure she's not as good as the regular 4 but we have seen gp and maokai so why not orianna? GP can support with E and Q, while not being able to be ganked with W and his highest base hp ingame. Also his ult is global, wich is huge. Orianna can speed up and slow down and shield your allys, but its just not as effective as a GP imo. Id like to see more leona supports tho, the damage on that on lvl3 is insane (about how sick maokais lvl5 damage is) | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On December 12 2011 22:34 ihasaKAROT wrote: GP can support with E and Q, while not being able to be ganked with W and his highest base hp ingame. Also his ult is global, wich is huge. Orianna can speed up and slow down and shield your allys, but its just not as effective as a GP imo. Id like to see more leona supports tho, the damage on that on lvl3 is insane (about how sick maokais lvl5 damage is) Leona support is nice but gets hard countered by Orianna support : ball = free bushward with ZERO possibility of removing it. I forgot to say that :D But VS Blitz/Leona, Orianna is just stupid. You can't deny them vision. | ||
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