EPT[Patch 1.0.0.128: Shyvana] General Discussion - Page 7
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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On November 01 2011 22:53 Potatisodlaren wrote: What's the point of discussing gameplay if we don't discuss the specifics? Should we just say we want this and that cool idea and ridicule those who wants specifics like you (ItsFunToLose) and flame riot for not implementing ideas that are poorly thought out? We can't really discuss the specifics without playtesting, plus this is all just for fun because unless you work at Riot I doubt they trawl this thread for the latest champ abilities. | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
TerrorBlades Ulti, He swaps his max HP with yours. It's hilarious the combo was. Invis (Can't remember what the item was called) Ult then Lvl 5 Dagon. Imagine this here :3 | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On November 01 2011 22:54 Sabin010 wrote: I can only imagine how broken portal champion would be. Put exit on the pool and entrance in brush..... Unsuspecting enemy walks in and is transported to the lazer. Even if they see the exit portal under the tower all it takes is one knock back/ pull and they get ported. I don't need to explain how devistating at low levels it is to take one tower hit. Eh you'd make them not have huge range portal to portal. I can't see it being any stronger than blitz, plus all you have to do is not step on it. | ||
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ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
On November 01 2011 22:56 sob3k wrote: We can't really discuss the specifics without playtesting, plus this is all just for fun because unless you work at Riot I doubt they trawl this thread for the latest champ abilities. The point of discussing gameplay is to discuss game play, not dear diary neverneverland where you dream about making your own game/heroes/spells. 3 pages of "i bet you 2000 dollars you can't come up with one original idea" troll bait, and 4 tangents discussing how to balance movement based gold gain ...really? | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On November 01 2011 22:38 sob3k wrote: See I though pickpocket was a nuts unbalancable mechanic too, but I changed my mind after thinking about it for a bit. If you think about it stealing gold is already in the game 100% of the time, every time you zone out an enemy in lane, force them to CS under a tower, or especially kill them, you are getting disproportionate amount of gold to them. It doesn't matter if you are actively taking it out of their inventory, or just using a gank to leverage and bully them back to shop, the net effect is that they have less gold and you have more. The amounts in question have been balanced for all the mechanics already implemented, and I don't see why the same couldn't be attempted with pickpocket. You give this outcome chart: a) they will get super ahead in farm because they can farm and steal farm from the enemy champion b) all of their other skills will suffer because they have a significant gold advantage without any counter gameplay c) the hero is more broken than the original TF d) the cooldown of the spell would be super long and boring because you'll have to sit there and wait forever for it to CD e) it won't steal enough gold for it to be worth the mana cost f) it will be an ultimate so your basic skills don't have a seriously long cd. At that point it just feels like a waste because it's not flashy enough to be an ultimate. This is the part that I think the whole thing hinges on, why can't their be any counter gameplay? There is counter play to all skills, you can even give the stealing spell all sorts of interesting conditions like you have to be behind the enemy, or they have to be low health, or just give it a low range on a hero who doesn't really want to get up close, or make it some sort of skillshot. This gives all sorts of opportunities for a good player to rob another one blind, or to be shut down hard, or to just pick enough to keep gold parity in the lane. If you think about it its really not any different balancewise as a matchup between someone with great pushing capacity (morgana), and someone with poor (Malph early), every time morg spams pool and pushes malph under turret she is essentially "stealing" his gold (the only thing that matters is the differential between the players). Sure it would have to be balanced, in exactly the same way characters are balanced now, Sivir is gonna get more farm than Akali, Akali's strat to keep up is to kill Sivir. The pickpocket character would have to be balanced like you said with either weaker farming skills and/or skillshots/PvP weakness or whatever. Thats how all characters are balanced, and its actually pretty comparitively simple to do in this case because most of what you are changing is simple gold amounts and maybe a CD. See here's the thing. Stealing things you have sucks, preventing you from getting more sucks less. If you have a tv and someone steals it, you're pretty mad. IF you are going to buy a TV and they dont have the one you want, you're significantly less mad. | ||
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Craton
United States17232 Posts
On November 01 2011 22:54 clickrush wrote: that xypherous comment is just BS. zoneing is not even that significant in LoL since you cannot deny your creeps which means your opponent only loses a part of the CS and an even smaller part of the EXP. I believe the real reason behind this is that players with strong mechanics will play such a champ 10 times more effectively than mechanically weak players, which would make this champ too pubstompy if balanced around top play and almost worthless at lower levels. Hardly. You already see how absurd it is on Yorick. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On November 01 2011 23:02 ItsFunToLose wrote: The point of discussing gameplay is to discuss game play, not dear diary neverneverland where you dream about making your own game/heroes/spells. 3 pages of "i bet you 2000 dollars you can't come up with one original idea" troll bait, and 4 tangents discussing how to balance movement based gold gain ...really? I don't really understand what level of detail you want here....I really don't think throwing out mana cost numbers and CD's is going to be realistic or productive. Im game for anything else though | ||
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ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
On November 01 2011 22:57 RogerX wrote: Lets talk about another OP ult thats quite nostalgic. TerrorBlades Ulti, He swaps his max HP with yours. It's hilarious the combo was. Invis (Can't remember what the item was called) Ult then Lvl 5 Dagon. Imagine this here :3 There was a cap to it. I believe it was like 33% at level 1. 10% HP terrorblade ults a 95% HP hero. enemy now has 33%, terrorblade now has 95%. TB ult + Dagon was a pub stomp build that squandered a 1v5ing hypercarry's gold on a 1v1 lulz trick. | ||
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ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
Yorick? He's pretty unique and proved what happens when you do take unique ideas. You end up with a balancing nightmare of a champion that's going to either be absurdly strong or completely irrelevant. But there are more unique champion ideas recently implemented like, Skarner. An ult that moves people around rather than just a target location? Pretty unique and unlike other champion skills. Then what about Xerath who feels very different from other mages? He has a skill where all it does is roots him and increases his range on all of his other abilities. It's unique and unlike anything else and he's probably OP. Then there are champions that don't necessarily implement new ideas but that feel really unique and fresh like Riven. Having four jumps and just being super strong so early in the game is a really fun and fresh feeling. It may not be completely unique but it feels unique. I haven't even gone as far back as champions like Rumble or Karma or Maokai. All of which have pretty unique concepts behind them that make them unlike other champions in LoL. Sure there may not be this huge range of weird ass abilities like in DotA but the idea that Riot is only releasing the same old concepts is pretty silly when numerous champions have unique and interesting ideas behind their design. You can draw similarities between any two champions in the game if you wanted to but recent champions haven't been too bland imo, although in some cases (like Yorick) the design has been pretty bad and created balancing issues. Finally, let's look at the new champion. She looks like a melee Nidalee with some skills that seem similar to other champions. Sure, she's probably not got the most original or unique skill set but without knowing if she's strong or not I can tell that all of her skills seem to synergize well together. She seems like a well designed and interesting champion. Don't know if she'll be fun to play or if she'll be any good but at the very least she seems well designed and not OP broken. I could bitch for pages probably about why I don't like how often we get new champions because I really do think they should slow down on champion releases. But I don't understand how people can bitch that champion design seems unoriginal. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 01 2011 22:54 clickrush wrote: that xypherous comment is just BS. zoneing is not even that significant in LoL since you cannot deny your creeps which means your opponent only loses a part of the CS and an even smaller part of the EXP. I believe the real reason behind this is that players with strong mechanics will play such a champ 10 times more effectively than mechanically weak players, which would make this champ too pubstompy if balanced around top play and almost worthless at lower levels. I think there are alot of basic ingame mechanics you could add to balance such a champion. For example make minions aggro on your champ when your pet attacks, or have the two share a bond that spreads out part of the damage they take etc. on a completely unrelated note: I dont like the new champion's kit. looks like everything just promotes you to smash buttons and rightklick. She has no real "wow"-effect besides her ult which is really only a gapcloser with a steroid. Some of the champion designers are too lost in designing tricky steroid-mechanics as it seems which only makes the itemization/builds interesting to figure out but that's it. A champion doesn't need tricky steroid-mechanics to be usefull. I'ts cool to have a couple of those, which i would call hardcarries (in the sense of dota) but look at some of the older champs for example: ashe's ult, zil's ult, fiddle's ult, janna's ult-> those kinds of abilities can be completely gamechanging, some of them are simpler than other ones but still create those huge gaps between using them wrong, right or ingeniously. looking at talon's patch history makes me a little sad too. The guy definitely does not need nerf's at all. The base damage and utility on his abilities are low enough to create a need of offensive items for him to be effective, while his laneing phase is highly dependand on his opponent's champion (which in my book makes a champ balanced by default because he can be counterpicked). Again riot manages to balance around pub-stomp-level of play. Instead of doing this kind of balancing they should make learning videos/texts/guides in collaboration with some of the very good players to give the community a better look at things. This way ppl would accept that its not the champions fault but their own, and give them room and tips to improve on. Come on, we both know that that's a silly argument. "It was different and easier in DotA, so it's not that strong!" Seriously? The reason Orianna was nerfed, the reason Cait and Kog are picks/bans in about 90% of high level play, the reason Xerath has stupidly high potential is that range is rediculously powerful in this game, and zoning with that range wins lanes so easily. And, in some cases, that zoning and area control just shuts champions down hardcore. Kog is hard to engage because he can crush you before you approach him, Cait trap/jump/QR/super range and never touch her, Ori used to be impossible to even approach. Imagine if Ori's ball could attack independent of her, and could move under it's own power. That's terrifying. It could be balanced, but it would be a nightmare from a design perspective. | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
In any game design, particularly the Zileas school of thought (which is pretty darn important), there are two important factors to consider. Depth+Options, and the Fun created when you introduce anything new, or decide to iterate upon an existing concept. Unless these areas are considered first and foremost, then no concept can be considered to work appropriately for a general audience. Depth and Options These two are very closely related. In essence, it is about making sure that new additions to your game increase the scope of play. If you add something that is redundant or too similar to an existing option, it means that you will end up in a straight up comparison against the pre-existing thing. Given that competitive play is all about "the best/min-maxing/mathcraft" it then leads to the problem that either you use the new addition, or you ignore it completely. Therefore, any new addition must have some form to them that has a clearly defined role and sets them apart from what currently exists. Furthermore, any new additions much never decrease the options that are available to players. The problem with mechanics such as gold loss is that it closes off options to the player in question. This is particularly a concern when we consider the reward-recovery balance. (Read the post for more details... I'm not going to go over it again.) Sure, you can argue that there's "more depth" when you have gold loss mechanics. However, you also lose an incredible amount of options as a result of this, as well as heavily skewing the reward-recovery balance. In an extreme scenario, you could have a champion who never progresses beyond the 475g they started with. The gold loss does not even have to come from death to create a skew in the reward-recovery balance. This entire balance is simply a measure of snowballing between two entities that occurs that dictates power levels in game. Pushing this see-saw to a single thin line only creates incredibly harsh and unforgiving gameplay. Also, there must be the element of response through learning. Unless it is clear what you did wrong and what you can do better, then the design is flawed. Pre-nerfed-into-the-ground Evelyn was like this because for the lesser skilled or new players, she stomped all over them. You can argue: "Yeah, but just l2ward and oracles". However, the problem is not that there exists a counter mechanic. The problem is that for a completely new player, they have no idea why they died or what they are supposed to do. It is not intuitive nor obvious. The inherent burden of knowledge of unintuitive designs creates friction in the game experience and deters your audience. Sure, you have have hardcore games which completely screw with you. However, creating arbitrary difficultly for the sake of difficulty is wrong. If you want to make life difficult for yourself, just play blindfolded. Fun and Anti-Fun: This is a beloved concept championed by Tom Cadwell, who some may know as Zileas. What this principle states is that any option or depth created in a game, not matter how viable or interesting, should not have their antifun component exceed their fun component. Overall, they can be summed up as follows:
And don't give me the "we shouldn't target all people" nonsense. I don't mean literally everyone including zombies and babies. I mean it in a general sense. And sure, you can target to a tiny group of hardcore people who are emo and obsess over cutting themselves and play Super Kaizo Mario. But really, that shouldn't be the standard for game design | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
"you think we make our game based around baddies? DEAL WITH IT". Riot lost me with the Nid nerfs. I finally found a character that took some mechanical skill and thought to play decently and Riot came in and said "no no no if you're good it's too easy to get out in front of bad players and stay there". what the fuck, I thought that was the point? dota 2 cannot come out fast enough. as far as this patch goes it's a small set of changes but I'm nominating Talon for the new J4; good to garbage in a manner of weeks because of repeated and unnecessary patching. LoL is still stilted way too heavily. Early the damage/defense ratio is way too far on defense, because yet again it's not "fun" to get blown up because you're an idiot. Can we please have a PTR with no flash just to try it out? | ||
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Shinshady
Canada1237 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1lYdZ.png) It seems to have been added with the Shyvana patch. Definitely not complaining though, more IP is good IP ;D. Someone on another forum speculated the more you play the same character the higher it goes... but I have school in an hour so I can't test xD.... and Graves free week so unless I suddenly feel like a role change I think that'll be me only game as Graves Q_Q.... | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On November 01 2011 23:41 red_b wrote: oh look it's another post that basically says: "you think we make our game based around baddies? DEAL WITH IT". Riot lost me with the Nid nerfs. I finally found a character that took some mechanical skill and thought to play decently and Riot came in and said "no no no if you're good it's too easy to get out in front of bad players and stay there". what the fuck, I thought that was the point? dota 2 cannot come out fast enough. as far as this patch goes it's a small set of changes but I'm nominating Talon for the new J4; good to garbage in a manner of weeks because of repeated and unnecessary patching. LoL is still stilted way too heavily. Early the damage/defense ratio is way too far on defense, because yet again it's not "fun" to get blown up because you're an idiot. Can we please have a PTR with no flash just to try it out? Why not just play with some liquidparty'ers and establish an honor system no-flash games | ||
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azarat
Australia155 Posts
For example, look at ranged AD carries, old versus new: Ashe: A hunter. Her E and R give her the ability to scout out terrain and choose her fight. She has slows to kite with, but if she picks the wrong fight or wrong enemy, she's super squishy and has no mobility escape. A very strong but skill-shot based initiator. Tristana: Mobility and burst early game, long range late game. Can change course of fights with well placed ultimate. She does have an escape, but her abilities are high mana cost and long cooldowns so you need to think about when you're using them. Has no slow outside of her W. Abilities scale with AP. Extremely low base stats of all kinds, and poor scaling of these stats. vs. Graves: A long range multi-target (or single target for bonus damage) nuke. Utility through smokescreen which not only does damage and slows but renders people caught in it useless for several seconds. A mobility skill that can be used offensively and defensively and is an attack speed steroid with cooldown reduction through auto attack. A strong skill-shot ultimate that double dips and scales with AD. Has a slightly shorter range than most other ADs, but has a survivability passive. I'm not saying Ashe or Tristana is UP, or that Graves is OP. What I am saying is that Graves' kit has no real discernible weaknesses. He has mobility to use on offense or defense (and which escapes through walls). He has a slow and team utility. He has a steroid that scales well with offensive stats (more damage and a lower cooldown), and an AoE ultimate. His abilities scale with AD. His abilities are quite expensive mana wise but he has a large base mana pool and regen, and has higher scaling of both. Outside of whether his abilities are "unique", the point is that the function of his abilities are a conglomeration of everything an AD carry "wants" without any aspect of a weakness. Graves has everything that Tristana has except her range but better, and makes up for the range with much higher survivability and team utility. You can see the same thing with Talon vs Master Yi. Both assassin types, but one has extremely clear weaknesses while the other has much less so. Yi purely on speed and chasing. He doesn't have burst, or any CC whatsoever. He relies solely on being faster than you and having greater sustained damage. But you still need to pick your targets extremely carefully; his abilities are very mana intensive and his base mana is low. Talon doesn't have such a "niche". He has burst, but also has low enough cooldowns to produce high sustained damage. His abilities scale with AD, whereas Yi's do not. He also has an escape that doubles as a movement modifier and as bonus damage. Essentially, Yi's unique weaknesses and strengths are integral to the champion; he functions as and fulfills the "assassin" moniker well, whereas Talon is simply... strong. You can't abuse any real apparent weaknesses, and thus he is required not to have any real unique strengths in order to not be incredibly overpowered. I think they need to move away from this paradigm. There needs to be risk and reward for champion skills, you can't simply wash them out by making every new champion have every new skill. It devalues the game as a whole by eclipsing older champions and by making the game more and more generic. Instead of "ticking the boxes", Riot needs to be thinking of ways in which to make champions UNIQUELY strong and weak. | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On November 01 2011 23:41 red_b wrote: oh look it's another post that basically says: "you think we make our game based around baddies? DEAL WITH IT". Riot lost me with the Nid nerfs. I finally found a character that took some mechanical skill and thought to play decently and Riot came in and said "no no no if you're good it's too easy to get out in front of bad players and stay there". what the fuck, I thought that was the point? dota 2 cannot come out fast enough. as far as this patch goes it's a small set of changes but I'm nominating Talon for the new J4; good to garbage in a manner of weeks because of repeated and unnecessary patching. LoL is still stilted way too heavily. Early the damage/defense ratio is way too far on defense, because yet again it's not "fun" to get blown up because you're an idiot. Can we please have a PTR with no flash just to try it out? ...Eh? I went into a comprehensive explanation of what makes a good game design and also game examples of how and why. I'm not sure how I'm saying LoL is balanced around baddies. I'm saying that the design team primarily considers the effects of their actions at a much more fundamental level that "hey this looks cool". Also, I'm not sure about the whole Nida nerfs meaning she can't dance around the other team. HSGG is still doing it fine in tournaments doing crazy stuff all the time. Tank Nida is now a viable build and AP Nida still works, just differently. Nidalee heal was pretty obnoxious anyway, so it's not like that was a bad thing. You whole post is just really bitter and angry and I really don't understand what you're trying to say... | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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