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On November 06 2014 05:52 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 05:51 deth2munkies wrote:On November 06 2014 05:47 Raisauce wrote:On November 06 2014 05:34 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
Well i mean, yeah im playing in a lower MMR, but in a heroe that although i've got all of the talents, im not as expereinced as with my "main heroes". And also if you play in lower MMR there are more chances of people i dont know, using the terror to defend, or using the plant against heroes and that kind of stuff. Also, when i play with my "mains" i notice way less people using free rotation heroes, while if i play with, lets say arthas, practically everyone is a free hero, except nova and valla. That means your enemies will be at a lower MMR as well so it doesn't matter. Your teammates skill level will be the same as your enemies skill level. The difference will be you and how well you play. There are so many fallacies with this statement I don't know where to begin. I'll just let it sit as the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. Someone else handle it. dunno dude he's literally exactly right so
How? This is a team game, trying to direct players in lower mmr is like sitting on a cactus productive. I think the only heroes you can carry a team with (ish) are Illidan Nova and Zeratul.
Lili is garbage, I've not died with her once, gone 15-0 and above in the two games I've played as her, got the most exp the most healing (out of both teams) 3rd best siege damage 4th best hero damage and still lost comprehensively I know she's a support but it feels like I'm not impacting on anything during the fights other than keeping people alive (ish)
Malfurion on the other hand feels great, so does Uther and Tyrande heroes that I can get stuck in with and keep my teammates in the fights. Haven't played LiLi because others have said she's garbage, trying to get her to level 5 and I'm at level 2 and I already want to stop playing her.
This rotation has tanked my hotslogs in my quest for gold, now plat from diamond only heroes I've done well with is Arthas and Kerrigan.
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I don't understand whats so hard to grasp about ur mmr going down = easier games.
If ur a masters player playing on a silver account, there's literally never an excuse to lose. Shitty teammates don't matter one bit, ur opponents are equally shitty.
You might argue that your games are lower quality, and I'm happy to agree with that. But you can't say ur winrate would go down as a result of playing with a lower MMR thats simply fact-denial.
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And we finally have our first discussion of "elo hell" of sorts...
I do wonder how blizzard adjusts mmr according to hero level, it shouldn't really be that big of a difference. Even given the small player base, I doubt people in hero/diamond players who switch to a level 1 hero will all of a sudden be paired with bronze.
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On November 06 2014 07:13 sushiko wrote:
And we finally have our first discussion of "elo hell" of sorts...
To be fair, the concept is a little bit more legitimate in a game like HotS where ur dependant on ur team to farm u XP and you can't actually farm gold etc.
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I agree as well, the ability to carry the team is a lot harder, but if you know how to play at a high level and you're up against lower mmr opponents, you should still be able to gain a bit more advantage to win more than you lose. Game enjoyment might be stupidly painful as you said though.
Edit: this is more directed at previous posts, not you sno, I know you know 😙
If you don't trust your opponents, then grab terror/dragon and try and communicate strats. Solo queue doesn't always mean do everything yourself.
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On November 06 2014 07:15 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 07:13 sushiko wrote:
And we finally have our first discussion of "elo hell" of sorts... To be fair, the concept is a little bit more legitimate in a game like HotS where ur dependant on ur team to farm u XP and you can't actually farm gold etc.
Still the argument of 4idiots and a good player makes a better team than 5 idiots holds.
If you are above your current MMR, you will have over 50%winrate because of the above clause, and you will rise in MMR.
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On November 06 2014 07:22 sushiko wrote:
I agree as well, the ability to carry the team is a lot harder, but if you know how to play at a high level and you're up against lower mmr opponents, you should still be able to gain a bit more advantage to win more than you lose. Game enjoyment might be stupidly painful as you said though.
Edit: this is more directed at previous posts, not you sno, I know you know 😙
If you don't trust your opponents, then grab terror/dragon and try and communicate strats. Solo queue doesn't always mean do everything yourself.
And when they don't listen and say (no idiot this game is all about teamfights) what then? "Elo Hell" does exist in this game, see my updated post at the top of this page, unless I'm going to q all the time with strong heroes that can be impactful by themselves you will struggle getting much higher than a 53% win ratio with a support hero that isn't super impactful (Tassadar looking at you)
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How do you define "Elo Hell"?
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On November 06 2014 07:30 TMG26 wrote:
How do you define "Elo Hell"?
As an excuse for being bad at the game/losing.
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@Ovid
Sure, unuseable heroes probably exist. The games in alpha. That doesn't mean that having a lower MMR is making you lose.
There's also the bit where certain heroes are better at certain MMRs (I heard something about illidan being unplayable bad yet a top pick in tournaments? I don't have the game myself).
That doesn't change the fact that the idea that having a lower MMR might negatively impact your winrate is ridiculous.
I will say that having a separate MMR for each hero is probably retarded but thats blizz for u.
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On November 06 2014 07:33 Sn0_Man wrote:
@Ovid
Sure, unuseable heroes probably exist. The games in alpha. That doesn't mean that having a lower MMR is making you lose.
There's also the bit where certain heroes are better at certain MMRs (I heard something about illidan being unplayable bad yet a top pick in tournaments? I don't have the game myself).
That doesn't change the fact that the idea that having a lower MMR might negatively impact your winrate is ridiculous.
I will say that having a separate MMR for each hero is probably retarded but thats blizz for u.
Not trying to sound harsh but I would reserve judgement on peoples opinions until you have played the game yourself, I would agree lower MMR is easier in Dota (Haven't played LoL so won't comment) because I can just go carry and make the plays. This game is so hard to make plays without a team, so so hard. When you have a bad team your skill can't impact enough to carry the game.
Li Li for sure is unusable without at least a 3 man team.
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Ovid, if you're playing heroes for the first time, and correct me if I'm wrong I don't know if you played pre-wipe, then perhaps you aren't playing the hero to its fullest. Hero control is still a huge part of the game and can be a deciding factor in winning important team fights (ie shrines, seeds, coins). Especially if your talent gated for 2-4 matches, then playing with full talents, I expect myself to play suboptimally for a few games before I play at the level of my 9 tyrande. Lili is definitely not the hero to play as her abilities have very little influence in team fights...
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MMR is a number that represents your probability of victory. "MMR hell" is the idea that at some given MMR, your teammates are so bad that your individual skill is irrelevant and your MMR is stuck even if you are more skilled than your MMR would indicate.
If MMR hell existed, then the game must BY DEFINITION grant no reward for player skill.
If you wish to argue that that is the case for HotS, then I'll admit that I haven't played it and it's possible that there is literally not one shred of skill anywhere in the game. But I find that hard to believe.
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No matter how much team based the game is, being better than the opponents will give you over 50% win rate, considering your team is as bad as your opponents. The dependency on team would just change from something like 70% to something like 55%
A thing like Elo Hell, can't possibly exist in a game that isn't 100% random.
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On November 06 2014 08:00 TMG26 wrote:
No matter how much team based the game is, being better than the opponents will give you over 50% win rate, considering your team is as bad as your opponents. The dependency on team would just change from something like 70% to something like 55%
A thing like Elo Hell, can't possibly exist in a game that isn't 100% random.
It can't exist in a game that is 100% random either. If skill doesn't matter, everyone will be correctly placed at the same MMR and every player will have a 50% winrate. It would be the most acurate matchmaking ever.
Elo Hell is an absurd concept no matter the situation anyone can possibly imagine.
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The fact that he's trying to claim it gets harder with worse players in the game makes me less inclined to play the game.
If you can't shine individually no matter how much better you are, where is the skill involved? Is it really only teamplay and communication?
If I queue up on a smurf or with some teammates that are 2k less mmr than me in dota, I can win the game singlehandely with pretty much every hero, just by having way better mechanics and understanding of the game.
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On November 06 2014 08:32 kaztah wrote:
The fact that he's trying to claim it gets harder with worse players in the game makes me less inclined to play the game.
If you can't shine individually no matter how much better you are, where is the skill involved? Is it really only teamplay and communication?
If I queue up on a smurf or with some teammates that are 2k less mmr than me in dota, I can win the game singlehandely with pretty much every hero, just by having way better mechanics and understanding of the game.
Mechanics in dota will definitely enable you to carry harder due to the nature of last hitting -> more gold -> items. In hots, the only advantage you have in terms of power is experience. Coupled with short game times (20-25mins depending on map), heroes of the storm is about outplaying the opponents as a team. With that said, I can and have destroyed my lane early on leading to exp lead, map control and if fort goes down, even more exp leads. Since you have access to all skills sans ultimate in the laning phase, you can easily dominate the opponents. Lane match ups do exist though so also learning to rotate or counter certain "cheese" strats is part skill and more parts teamwork.
The sheer amount of decisions you make individually is still equally, if not more, important as team fights.
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On November 06 2014 08:18 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 08:00 TMG26 wrote:
No matter how much team based the game is, being better than the opponents will give you over 50% win rate, considering your team is as bad as your opponents. The dependency on team would just change from something like 70% to something like 55%
A thing like Elo Hell, can't possibly exist in a game that isn't 100% random. It can't exist in a game that is 100% random either. If skill doesn't matter, everyone will be correctly placed at the same MMR and every player will have a 50% winrate. It would be the most acurate matchmaking ever. Elo Hell is an absurd concept no matter the situation anyone can possibly imagine.
I believe it's just people incapable of recognizing their own faults. Blaming the team is just easier.
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On November 06 2014 07:32 Hider wrote:As an excuse for being bad at the game/losing.
The right and true response. The only common factor is all the games you lose is you.
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On November 06 2014 07:39 Ovid wrote:
Li Li for sure is unusable without at least a 3 man team.
So don't play Li Li? I hear Arthas, Nova, Uther all stronk.
As everybody else is saying, MMR records your personal impact by means of using you as a constant and milling through lots of random teammates/enemies. It might rise slower than you like, but if your winrate is <50%, you are less good than other players at your current MMR over the period you're calculating the winrate.
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EPT
