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[Guide] Sleep and Insomnia - Page 6

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evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
April 02 2011 20:23 GMT
#101
great post man, but my problems is staying up browsing the web and playing sc2. T_T
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24793 Posts
April 02 2011 20:24 GMT
#102
On April 03 2011 05:23 evanthebouncy! wrote:
great post man, but my problems is staying up browsing the web and playing sc2. T_T

Yes I had similar problems when I considered myself an insomniac. Also I'm using Flux which is a program that dims your monitor a bit at night... not going to specifically recommend it though as I can't make any promises about it... but it seems to help me a bit.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
0meg4
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil97 Posts
April 02 2011 20:28 GMT
#103
Do not use cocain.
One minute to learn, a lifetime to master
son1dow
Profile Joined May 2009
Lithuania322 Posts
April 02 2011 21:02 GMT
#104
OH GOD. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

I really have nothing else to say. Just mad props. And also thanks to the guy who bumped it.
Play more Quake.
Siniyas
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany66 Posts
April 02 2011 21:47 GMT
#105
Ok Guys. Im a guy who sleeps in very long and has a hard time getting up. Also often have dificulty going to sleep.
I found a solution and also know the how i get into this bad sleeping schedule now, so i want to share what i found out.
So what happened in my normal sleep behavior was. i look at the time in the evening, saying to myself, man i should go to bed if i want to get to my lectures on time. But im not tired, like alot of you, so i surf the net/watch some shows bla bla. Then i go to bed, feeling a little sleepy but not that much. I try to sleep, but as for alot of you, my thoughts start racing(not always alot bu sometimes i stay up in bed like 40-60mins. Obviously that sucks. Then in the morning, i get up if i hear the alarm, which takes alot of willpower, oftentimes i roll over to the side go to sleep for another 30-40 mins and have some weird dreams.

When i have nothing to do for the day its even worse. I wake up, go to sleep, wake up ,go to sleep. The longer the holidays with nothing to do and no events that require getting up early, i go to bed later and later and wake up later too.

Now why is that? Why does this vicious cycle go on and on and on.
The one major reasons, that all others are suplemental to, is sleep quality. Sleep quality sucks, you sleep longer, take longer to get up, take longer to wind down and suddenly you have a 28 hour cycle or something. Now for me one of the major things with getting this undone, was sleeping at the right time. And for me and i believe for most humans, this time is between the sun going down and the sun rising.
That is because when the sunlight hits you, your body naturally wakes up and when it gets dark your body winds down. Looking at my morning routine i see, when i wake up at 11-12 i never feel awake. There is always drowsynes that pulls me back to sleep. The sun is trying to wake me up, my body is trying to get more sleep. So to fix this, i needed to go to bed way earlier.
I tried often to go to bed 1 hour earlier each day, but that didnt work out, as for proably alot of you.

Now second method. Pulling an all nighter, or sleeping very little one day and waking up super early.
This didnt work out for me in the past. But after having to get up early for an exam, it did.

What did i do? I simply stayed up. In earlier tries i either went to bed early like 18-20 or late 20-23.
What happened was, i either sleept for like 5-6 hours and was awake in the middle of the night, tried to get some more sleep and then slept through to 11-12 or just slept through to 11-12.

Obviously very devestating.
This time i went to bed early and woke up in the middle of the night like 3:00 but didnt go to bed again. I fought my way through to 21:00 went to bed and woke up at like 5:00. You can, see where this is going. I fit more and more into this natural cycle of going to bed at like 22:00-22:30 and waking up at like 7:00, when the rays of morning sunlight brace my face, feeling rested. It was actually easy to get up. At night time, i felt profoundly tired. As soon as the feeling would come over me i would go to bed pretty quickly. No reading or other activity to wind down like usually.

Now you may say, dude just block out the sun. Close down your windows. But i think it is not that simple. First the sun light helps you to wake up and stay awake. Even though i would say, get woken up prematurly by the sun is worse than having no sunlight. But still when i woke up in the range of 2-3 i would feel very tired after i while usually around 5-7 and it would carry on, even though getting lighter, to like 12:00 . The second thing is, beeing up at the normal hours gets you more activity, which makes more tired in the evening. There is a large diference if you fill 3-4 hours on the computer, with 3-4 hours, in the city, or in a park, or simply cleaning up your place.

The last 2 parts, that are important , are eating and habit. For eating, i think its important to not eat well in advance of sleeping anything that gives power. Dont have a big dinner, of meat and carbs and sweets, like i often did for myself late at night. You will feel tired after eating, but this is not a good time to sleep. And after an hour or two energy will start to rise strongly and keep beeing there. That mixed with not feeling sleepy, because you havent been awake long enough, is part of what keeps your thoughts racing in bed.

For habit, people often try to change the habit itself, which never really worked for me. Go to bed earlier! Stop thinking and go to sleep! Get up immedietly! Many of you have probably tried doing and saying this to yourself. But it is tremendously hard, because of the physiogical state of yourself. Some people might say, " dude just have discipline". But does figurativly smasching your head against a wall till it breaks really require more discipline? How about just going around that wall?
It was so easy for me to get into the habit of a healthy sleep cycle once conditions were met and those habits actually enforced by my body and having success.
Dont try to just magically change your habits, they will grow and provide a savety-net for you over time.
Your old habits are going to stay there also and it is easy to slip back into them, which happened to me 2 times already, but it is also possible to stay in this healthy cycle and not try to move a mountain everytime you wake up and try to get up.

Hope this helps some people, who have similar problems.
Let it rip
Vain
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Netherlands1115 Posts
April 11 2011 11:17 GMT
#106
i've just been awake for 24 hours. GOODNIGHT
Battle.net 2.0 is a waiter and he's a dick
Frigo
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary1023 Posts
April 11 2011 11:46 GMT
#107
My record is about ~30 hours of being awake

I've noticed that the more I study, the more difficult it is to fall asleep. This peaked when I was studying for Calculus 3 finals, I was staring at the ceiling for 8 hours straight instead of sleeping.

Also, sometimes I just fall asleep in the middle of the day, taking a nap anywhere within the 1..9 hour range.

Otherwise I have a healthy 27 hour cycle :3
http://www.fimfiction.net/user/Treasure_Chest
Ricjames
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Czech Republic1047 Posts
April 11 2011 14:47 GMT
#108
+ Show Spoiler +
On April 03 2011 06:47 Siniyas wrote:
Ok Guys. Im a guy who sleeps in very long and has a hard time getting up. Also often have dificulty going to sleep.
I found a solution and also know the how i get into this bad sleeping schedule now, so i want to share what i found out.
So what happened in my normal sleep behavior was. i look at the time in the evening, saying to myself, man i should go to bed if i want to get to my lectures on time. But im not tired, like alot of you, so i surf the net/watch some shows bla bla. Then i go to bed, feeling a little sleepy but not that much. I try to sleep, but as for alot of you, my thoughts start racing(not always alot bu sometimes i stay up in bed like 40-60mins. Obviously that sucks. Then in the morning, i get up if i hear the alarm, which takes alot of willpower, oftentimes i roll over to the side go to sleep for another 30-40 mins and have some weird dreams.

When i have nothing to do for the day its even worse. I wake up, go to sleep, wake up ,go to sleep. The longer the holidays with nothing to do and no events that require getting up early, i go to bed later and later and wake up later too.

Now why is that? Why does this vicious cycle go on and on and on.
The one major reasons, that all others are suplemental to, is sleep quality. Sleep quality sucks, you sleep longer, take longer to get up, take longer to wind down and suddenly you have a 28 hour cycle or something. Now for me one of the major things with getting this undone, was sleeping at the right time. And for me and i believe for most humans, this time is between the sun going down and the sun rising.
That is because when the sunlight hits you, your body naturally wakes up and when it gets dark your body winds down. Looking at my morning routine i see, when i wake up at 11-12 i never feel awake. There is always drowsynes that pulls me back to sleep. The sun is trying to wake me up, my body is trying to get more sleep. So to fix this, i needed to go to bed way earlier.
I tried often to go to bed 1 hour earlier each day, but that didnt work out, as for proably alot of you.

Now second method. Pulling an all nighter, or sleeping very little one day and waking up super early.
This didnt work out for me in the past. But after having to get up early for an exam, it did.

What did i do? I simply stayed up. In earlier tries i either went to bed early like 18-20 or late 20-23.
What happened was, i either sleept for like 5-6 hours and was awake in the middle of the night, tried to get some more sleep and then slept through to 11-12 or just slept through to 11-12.

Obviously very devestating.
This time i went to bed early and woke up in the middle of the night like 3:00 but didnt go to bed again. I fought my way through to 21:00 went to bed and woke up at like 5:00. You can, see where this is going. I fit more and more into this natural cycle of going to bed at like 22:00-22:30 and waking up at like 7:00, when the rays of morning sunlight brace my face, feeling rested. It was actually easy to get up. At night time, i felt profoundly tired. As soon as the feeling would come over me i would go to bed pretty quickly. No reading or other activity to wind down like usually.

Now you may say, dude just block out the sun. Close down your windows. But i think it is not that simple. First the sun light helps you to wake up and stay awake. Even though i would say, get woken up prematurly by the sun is worse than having no sunlight. But still when i woke up in the range of 2-3 i would feel very tired after i while usually around 5-7 and it would carry on, even though getting lighter, to like 12:00 . The second thing is, beeing up at the normal hours gets you more activity, which makes more tired in the evening. There is a large diference if you fill 3-4 hours on the computer, with 3-4 hours, in the city, or in a park, or simply cleaning up your place.

The last 2 parts, that are important , are eating and habit. For eating, i think its important to not eat well in advance of sleeping anything that gives power. Dont have a big dinner, of meat and carbs and sweets, like i often did for myself late at night. You will feel tired after eating, but this is not a good time to sleep. And after an hour or two energy will start to rise strongly and keep beeing there. That mixed with not feeling sleepy, because you havent been awake long enough, is part of what keeps your thoughts racing in bed.

For habit, people often try to change the habit itself, which never really worked for me. Go to bed earlier! Stop thinking and go to sleep! Get up immedietly! Many of you have probably tried doing and saying this to yourself. But it is tremendously hard, because of the physiogical state of yourself. Some people might say, " dude just have discipline". But does figurativly smasching your head against a wall till it breaks really require more discipline? How about just going around that wall?
It was so easy for me to get into the habit of a healthy sleep cycle once conditions were met and those habits actually enforced by my body and having success.
Dont try to just magically change your habits, they will grow and provide a savety-net for you over time.
Your old habits are going to stay there also and it is easy to slip back into them, which happened to me 2 times already, but it is also possible to stay in this healthy cycle and not try to move a mountain everytime you wake up and try to get up.

Hope this helps some people, who have similar problems.


It is nice that you managed to straighten your sleep habits, however i tried to do this many times and the result was horrible. Earlier i go to sleep, the longer i sleep and more tired i feel when i wake up. I am lately getting app. 5 hours of sleep during week nights and 8-10 hours during weekends. However i feel very tired in the evening between 18-20pm, sometimes i even crash during these hours and then i can't fall asleep again before 2 am and the circle continous. The worst thing is when i start to sleep too much, there are days when i sleep from 3 am. until 15pm and i even fall asleep again at 17-18pm cause i feel so tired.


Brood War is the best RTS that has ever been created.
Retgery
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1229 Posts
September 12 2011 23:13 GMT
#109
I feel like I should bump this because it helped me alot. You should really post a link to the Flux program in the OP.
Fall down 7 times, stand up 8.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24793 Posts
September 29 2011 03:29 GMT
#110
On September 13 2011 08:13 Retgery wrote:
I feel like I should bump this because it helped me alot. You should really post a link to the Flux program in the OP.

I just noticed this bump of yours because.... someone made a thread about the flux program haha XD
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
October 01 2011 05:56 GMT
#111
I convinced myself, despite being awake, or feeling awake, that i was falling asleep. Fell asleep within the hour, instead of the usual 1.5-2
☺
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
October 03 2011 12:23 GMT
#112
Very nice guide! Since this is an active area of interest for me, I had a couple of comments.

Do a lot of people on tl have Delayed Phase Disorder?

Probably. Delayed Phase Disorder is the tendency to be unable to fall asleep until 3am or 4am, but then get a good 7-8 hours of sleep. The opposite can also occur where you have trouble staying awake past 8pm (elderly people for example). These problems can be treated with artificial bright-light boxes that simulate the sun and adjust your body temperature cycle to a more appropriate time. However, bright-light boxes are not required. This is especially true on bright mornings where you can go outside in order to jump-start your wakefulness system (just don't wear sunglasses).

I agree that this is very likely affecting gamers - including myself! Even light from a computer screen is plenty bright to reset the circadian clock - although the Flux program may indeed help that, as the circadian clock is sensitive to shorter wavelength light that the visual system. The really important message here is: Light exposure near or after your bedtime will delay your circadian clock. That means the next night, your body will want to go to bed later. So now if you try to go to bed at the same time as the night before, you may experience insomnia. Because the body has its own clock, you cannot just choose when you want to go to bed - the body anticipates an expected bedtime based on your behavior on prior days. That's what makes weekend to weekday transitions particularly hard - when you abruptly shift to an earlier schedule on Sunday/Monday you are effectively jet-lagged. The way to keep your body on an earlier schedule is to cut out light exposure near bedtime, and increase light exposure in the morning after you wake up.


Does this mean that you should panic if you realize you are going to get less than five and a half hours of sleep? Certainly not. Even if you are getting as little as three hours of sleep per night (as is the case with some demanding professions or at certain times), you can function without significant consequences (think of the Apollo 13 astronauts who slept three hours a night and yet performed the operations to get the ship back to Earth safely).

The idea of 'core' sleep isn't very well founded - especially since we still have a pretty loose grasp on what sleep is actually doing from a functional perspective. There is evidence that regularly sleeping 6 h per night results in measurable cognitive deficits relative to sleeping 8 h per night, and that these deficits continue to accumulate almost linearly day by day over a period of 2 weeks (see Van Dongen et al., Sleep, 2003). Worse still, subjective assessments of performance level out after a few days under these conditions, meaning if you're chronically deprived of sleep, you're probably no longer even aware of how poorly you're functioning!
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
T3tra
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States406 Posts
October 17 2011 14:51 GMT
#113
Absolutely incredible guide. Thanks for taking the time to post it, micro. I'm going to start applying some of this to my sleeping habits ASAP to hopefully alleviate some of the stress I've accumulated due to sleeplessness lately.
I need this place like I need a shotgun blast to the face.
ilikeLIONZ
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany427 Posts
October 17 2011 15:22 GMT
#114
thanks a lot for writing this guide, i haven't read the entirety of it yet, but it started out be amazing.
i could notice a lot of similarities to the basics of psychology and pedagogy which i learned in school for 2 years, so that guide was very convincing for me.

was a great read so far, thanks for the effort!
slytown
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Korea (South)1411 Posts
October 17 2011 15:26 GMT
#115
Very nice. Everyone here, especially progamers, need this guide. I suffered Insomnia my Junior year of college and thankfully grew out of it. Others don't have that luxury.
The best Flash meme ever: http://imgur.com/zquoK
ilikeLIONZ
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 17:48:17
October 17 2011 17:45 GMT
#116
On April 11 2011 23:47 Ricjames wrote:

It is nice that you managed to straighten your sleep habits, however i tried to do this many times and the result was horrible. Earlier i go to sleep, the longer i sleep and more tired i feel when i wake up. I am lately getting app. 5 hours of sleep during week nights and 8-10 hours during weekends. However i feel very tired in the evening between 18-20pm, sometimes i even crash during these hours and then i can't fall asleep again before 2 am and the circle continous. The worst thing is when i start to sleep too much, there are days when i sleep from 3 am. until 15pm and i even fall asleep again at 17-18pm cause i feel so tired.




you should let a dentist check if you grind your teeth during night, there might be tentions in your muscles during sleep if you do so. that prevents a relaxing and refreshing sleep.
you get a thingy to put on a row of teeth, which is supposed to prevent that, but it apparently doesn't work in my case

it's worth to ask it, next time when you're at the dentist!
IMHope
Profile Joined February 2011
Korea (South)1241 Posts
October 17 2011 18:17 GMT
#117
Really nice post. I found it very educational and it shed some light on why I have a hard time falling asleep. I also liked how you talked about if we really need 8 hours of sleep. Was a long read but it was completely worth it, thx =D
Jessica Jung, Kim Taeyeon, Kwon Yuri <333
Nizaris
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 19:04:43
October 17 2011 18:47 GMT
#118
Thx for bumping this. And thx micro for making it. I am a terrible sleeper maybe this will help. I'm happy if i take less then 2 hours to fall asleep. And if i don't put an alarm clock i'll wake up at 5pm on the weekends (after going to bed at 3)...

always refused sleeping pills because i found them stupid. They don't treat the cause, therefore are u gonna take pills all your life ? I'd rather have bad sleep then being on medication for life.
Gnight
Profile Joined September 2011
77 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 18:58:21
October 17 2011 18:57 GMT
#119
Ooh, a rather pleasant surprise to see this guide/thread and I have to say Micro, you did quite a amazing job at writing this all out.

As someone who is suffering from Insomnia for over 10 years now I can see you did your reasarch (as much as has been researched) on this subject and you put forth alot of informative and, most important, helpfull things in this guide for people who suffer from Insomnia to help them treat this. Though I would like to not that it's more so for the "lighter cases" of Insomnia that this guide is meant too as for me the guide will not help me treat my Insomnia in any way, not that I expected anything else to be honest.

Would be nice if this (that it's mainly meant towards the "lighter" forms of Insomnia) was clearly stated somewhere at the start of the guide, in order to avoid misunderstandings. I say this because alot of people who hear/realise I suffer from Insomnia often underestimate right away the severity of it and this isn't something I like to see. But it's not a big deal either way, just a small bit of advice.

Also you might want to ask (or do it yourself if you have that power on this forum) to change the location of this thread towards the Health & Fitness section. Feel it will fit more in that section then in the General Forum section. The date of when this was created might be the cause of why, seeing I don't think there was a Health & Fitness section at that time.

On October 03 2011 21:23 whatthefat wrote:

Show nested quote +

Does this mean that you should panic if you realize you are going to get less than five and a half hours of sleep? Certainly not. Even if you are getting as little as three hours of sleep per night (as is the case with some demanding professions or at certain times), you can function without significant consequences (think of the Apollo 13 astronauts who slept three hours a night and yet performed the operations to get the ship back to Earth safely).

The idea of 'core' sleep isn't very well founded - especially since we still have a pretty loose grasp on what sleep is actually doing from a functional perspective. There is evidence that regularly sleeping 6 h per night results in measurable cognitive deficits relative to sleeping 8 h per night, and that these deficits continue to accumulate almost linearly day by day over a period of 2 weeks (see Van Dongen et al., Sleep, 2003). Worse still, subjective assessments of performance level out after a few days under these conditions, meaning if you're chronically deprived of sleep, you're probably no longer even aware of how poorly you're functioning!


Pretty much what whatthefat says here.

As someone who catches less sleep then 3 hours a day (if I had to go for a average, as it can vary quite a bit from day to day and week to week, it would be around the 7-9 hours sleep a week) getting less sleep can have a big impact on one's health. Of course this varies for each person and there are alot of different factors that one has to take into account to, but getting less sleep can (and most likely will) result in significant consequences.

The example made here of the Apollo 13 astronauts is a rather poorly made one (no offense Micro), because those astronauts were (to my knowledge) prepared for such situations and trained for it. Of course for them getting less sleep wasn't much of a impact on their capabilities of operating, because of their training, but on top of this also comes the time span they had less sleep. The expedition wasn't a long one and they most likely could have even functioned without significant consequences if they hadn't had any sleep whatsoever, because they prepared their body and mind to function under such conditions and the human body is quite capable of adapting.

Though it's a completely other matter if they would continue to get 3 hours of sleep after their expedition for a longer period of time, then they would face rather big consequences for their functioning and health. Even with their training, preparations for their body adapting to this, their is a limit to how far the human body can go and I know this, as I have crossed that line a long time ago and I have to live with it every day. I can type out a long list of the significant consequences I face, in my every day life or the long run, but I don't think that is really needed to get my point across.


While I have a tiny urge to go deeper into everything put forward in the guide, I think it's best to refrain from doing this. It's clear that this guide is meant for the "lighter" cases of Insomnia and I shouldn't complicate things with my experience. Besides, there's alot of information in the guide that I could go deeper into or is up for discussion in that guide, a bit too much to do it all for my taste right now. ^ ^


As for research, Insomnia isn't really well covered. There's still alot of it that is more theory based then scientific based, which is a shame on one hand, but it does show that it isn't something to be taking lightly. I have been asked multiple times to aid in research (as a Insomnia subject), but so far I have refused most of those requests because of privacy reasons.


Either way, a nice read nonetheless, so thanks for that Micro.
“Sleep is like the unicorn - it is rumored to exist, but I doubt I will see any”
doss
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada137 Posts
October 17 2011 19:28 GMT
#120
What would be the result of someone having a 'higher-than-average' level of arousal in the Reticular Activating System?
https://sites.google.com/site/starcraft2doss/home/home/
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