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United States24734 Posts
On October 22 2009 07:25 Loophole wrote:
Nice guide Micro. I have insomnia and some symptoms of narcolepsy. I'll definitely try some of this out. You need to start playing SC again though.
I can't stand it when someone posts a well written article and people complain that it's too long. You can't get everything in 2 paragraphs people.
Did I mention you need to start playing more SC?
I play a game or two a week I guess lol.... pretty busy and trying to become gosu in golf.
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On October 22 2009 07:13 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 05:01 Foucault wrote:
Interesting guide Micronesia.
However, I think a few key elements to promote good sleep is missing here. Pardon me if I didn't notice them, I tried to skim through it all.
* Cut Caffeine
* Exercise. Do intensive cardiovascular activity and your sleep will improve without a doubt.
* Do more stuff in general, don't just sit around all day
* TAKE MAGNESIUM SUPPLEMENTS
I will go into magnesium a bit more, since it's been found to make people sleep better. Because of how much magnesium that is depleted every day and the scarcity of it in food, most people don't get their daily recommended intake.
Solution: Buy a magnesium supplement. DON'T buy Magnesiumoxide, it has ridiculously bad bioavailability (something like 2% get's absorbed in your body). I ready a study on pubmed about the bioavailability of different kinds of magnesium. Either get magnesium-glycinate/taurate/lactate/citrate/malatate most preferrably. Magnesiumaspartate is fine too unless you are hyperactive or something similar, since aspartate is a precursor to aspartam, which raises several catecholamines (stress hormones) in your brain.
tl;dr: Buy Magnesium supplements and take 30-60 minutes before sleep on an empty stomach. (not magnesiumoxide).
Do report back if this helped anyone, which I'm sure it will. Cutting caffeine is a good idea (although a pretty obvious solution I think). I did talk about exercise. Do more stuff in general is a good point. Magnesium supplements I can neither agree with nor argue against due to my lack of knowledge on them, but I generally stand by my earlier comment that medicine/supplements are not a good first step towards solving sleeping related problems. Maybe for some people your suggestion is a good one though.
I suggest people to give it a try since there are no risks involved whatsoever and magnesium only does good regarding sleep, helping the muscles in your body to relax, lower your heart rate and epinephrine release, boost GABA etc.
Magnesium is a mineral that we get through food every day so I don't consider it a medicine or "unnatural" aid per se. The problem is that magnesium defiency and sleep are closely related and the fact that a huge amount of americans don't get their recommended daily intake of magnesium makes supplementing magnesium quite favorable. The fact that magnesium is also depleted through stress, exercise, caffeine and other stimulants makes it even more likely for many people today to suffer from magnesium deficiency.
"There is a close association between sleep architecture, especially slow wave sleep, and activity in the glutamatergic and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)ergic system. Because magnesium is a natural N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA)antagonist and GABA agonist, magnesium apparently plays a key role in the regulation of sleep. Such a role is supported by supplementation, correlation, and animal studies showing that magnesium intake or status affects sleep organization.
"Other researchers have found in both human and animal studies that magnesium deficiency results in sleep disturbances, such as agitated sleep and frequent periods of awakenings. This has been related to changes in electrical activity in the brain. It looks like magnesium is important for a good night sleep."
http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=10874
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On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health.
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On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote:
On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health.
Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable.
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On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote:
On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable.
And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point.
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United States24734 Posts
Foucault my sleep problems are mostly gone right now (thanks to what I learned when preparing to write my guide) so I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing although I'll keep my eyes open for more information about magnesium.
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On October 22 2009 07:59 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote:
On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable. And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point.
Surely but magnesium has a wide margin for usage. And unless you eat HUGE amounts of Magnesium it won't be toxic since it isn't stored in the liver unlike some fat-soluble vitamins/minerals like A, D and E and alot of metals.
Basically there's nothing to worry about whatsoever if you supplement magnesium because 1) Many things deplete magnesium from our bodys on a daily basis and 2) The bioavailability isn't 100%. This means that if a magnesium supplement says 300 mg magnesium, it's hugely dependant on what the magnesium is bound to. If it's magnesiumoxide your body takes up something like 2% of that 300 mg, for other sorts of magnesium the amount your body takes up is vastly bigger but never 300 mg.
I think the RDI for young adults in america is 400 mg daily, and this is way low considering many people ate 1000 mg daily a 100 years ago due to food being less processed and other factors. Also it's actually quite hard to get more than like 200 mg from typical daily food because high magnesium is mainly found in sunflower seeds and some sorts of beans which isn't typical for most people to eat. Also alot of stuff drive magnesium out of your body such as calcium, stress and caffeine.
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On October 22 2009 08:05 micronesia wrote:
Foucault my sleep problems are mostly gone right now (thanks to what I learned when preparing to write my guide) so I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing although I'll keep my eyes open for more information about magnesium.
Ok that's great and I applaude your guide because it's thorough and adressed many issues of insomnia. But the underlying issue with sleeping will many times be worsened by or caused by magnesium, since sleep after all is a biological function which magnesium governs to a large degree. Now, mental stress and what not draws out magnesium from your system which will make the problem worse, and at the same time magnesium promotes healthy neural activity which involves sleep and mood.
So it's all connected, body and mind.
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On October 22 2009 08:10 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 07:59 fanatacist wrote:On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote:
On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable. And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point. Surely but magnesium has a wide margin for usage. And unless you eat HUGE amounts of Magnesium it won't be toxic since it isn't stored in the liver unlike some fat-soluble vitamins/minerals like A, D and E and alot of metals. Basically there's nothing to worry about whatsoever if you supplement magnesium because 1) Many things deplete magnesium from our bodys on a daily basis and 2) The bioavailability isn't 100%. This means that if a magnesium supplement says 300 mg magnesium, it's hugely dependant on what the magnesium is bound to. If it's magnesiumoxide your body takes up something like 2% of that 300 mg, for other sorts of magnesium the amount your body takes up is vastly bigger but never 300 mg. I think the RDI for young adults in america is 400 mg daily, and this is way low considering many people ate 1000 mg daily a 100 years ago due to food being less processed and other factors. Also it's actually quite hard to get more than like 200 mg from typical daily food because high magnesium is mainly found in sunflower seeds and some sorts of beans which isn't typical for most people to eat. Also alot of stuff drive magnesium out of your body such as calcium, stress and caffeine.
Cool n_n; Didn't know. Is this related to your job/major somehow?
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great thread, I can't believe I missed it the first time :O
thanks!
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On October 22 2009 08:16 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 08:10 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:59 fanatacist wrote:On October 22 2009 07:56 Foucault wrote:On October 22 2009 07:53 fanatacist wrote:
On that note, it's a rule of thumb that an excess of ANY metal in your system will reflect poorly on your health. Yeah except that you won't get any excess magnesium in your body because it's water soluable. And there is no saturation point? I wouldn't know, but everything I know of has a saturation point. Surely but magnesium has a wide margin for usage. And unless you eat HUGE amounts of Magnesium it won't be toxic since it isn't stored in the liver unlike some fat-soluble vitamins/minerals like A, D and E and alot of metals. Basically there's nothing to worry about whatsoever if you supplement magnesium because 1) Many things deplete magnesium from our bodys on a daily basis and 2) The bioavailability isn't 100%. This means that if a magnesium supplement says 300 mg magnesium, it's hugely dependant on what the magnesium is bound to. If it's magnesiumoxide your body takes up something like 2% of that 300 mg, for other sorts of magnesium the amount your body takes up is vastly bigger but never 300 mg. I think the RDI for young adults in america is 400 mg daily, and this is way low considering many people ate 1000 mg daily a 100 years ago due to food being less processed and other factors. Also it's actually quite hard to get more than like 200 mg from typical daily food because high magnesium is mainly found in sunflower seeds and some sorts of beans which isn't typical for most people to eat. Also alot of stuff drive magnesium out of your body such as calcium, stress and caffeine. Cool n_n; Didn't know. Is this related to your job/major somehow?
Not really, I've just read a HUGE amount of articles and research on vitamins/minerals and exercise is a big interest of mine.
Random fact: Did you know for example that the molecular structure of valium and benzos was created by pharmacologists trying to copy the exact structure of vitamin B3, which binds to the same neuro-transmitters as benzos and is anxiolytic in higher doses.
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I was just having some sleep problems, so came back and reread this guide and its been helping me.
Worth the bump I think if other people can get some help from it too.
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I'm going to bump this as well because it's been helping me lately. I finally fell asleep after 3 days in a row awake in which even sleeping pills stopped working 
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I don't mean to shit all over your long post, but I'm gonna go ahead and and say that I used to have sleeping problems(minor), and I just started exercising, moving around a lot more(not being lazy to do stuff), and I started eating better and smarter, but the main thing that I feel really helped me was cannabis before going to sleep. I know you said drugs shouldn't be the first outlet to try but I feel as if it did wonders for me; and btw I don't condone any other drugs for sleeping and I think sleeping pills are horrible.
But yea marijuana did wonders for me, now I easily go to sleep without smoking because I slowly stopped smoking before sleeping and I get so tired from exercising and doing stuff all day that I cant imagine not hitting the sack(no pun intended lol).
You eat good, exercise good, smoke good(marijuana is one of if not the best stress reliever known to us), and your body and mind(as foucault pointed out) have no choice but to sleep good.
sweet dreams my friends  :z
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I'm sure there is little science to it, but I have a great deal falling asleep in silent darkness. My brain just will not turn off if there is no input to the system, however with a show or music or movie or even if I focus on the white noise of the computer I can quiet my mind. But ya, my head goes to all kinda of weird places in SILENT darkness.
Also I have found that smoking a small amount of weed 5 or 10 minutes before bed will set things perfectly as well. Nothing like some plant to get things working. xD
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Great guide, I used to be an insomniac, and followed very similar methods. I sleep like a baby now.
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Thank you for the read. For years I've been sleeping bad. Constant questions about sleep spooked through my head. The questions surely will disappear because of your write-up.
Thanks.
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Nice writing macro ability you got there, micro!
Nice read aswell 
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Great job and initiative writing the guide. I like it.
As someone studying psychology there are a few things I feel I have to bring up.
On June 14 2009 10:35 micronesia wrote:
[Guide]
What about psychotherapy? Will that help me?
Not only is psychotherapy expensive and time-consuming, but it is usually ineffective in treating insomnia. This is because insomnia is not usually caused by psychological problems. Furthermore, wrongfully believing that your insomnia is caused by problems of the psyche induces feelings of helplessness and lowered self-esteem which can contribute towards increasing the severity of insomnia symptoms. Most importantly, there is no scientific proof that psychotherapy is effective for treating insomnia. Of course, there may be times when psychotherapy is appropriate, so keep that in mind.
I can see how your target audience for this guide is everyday people who are having trouble sleeping. It's not the group that must seek a therapist.
At the same time, I think calling it out to be detrimental and having an effect on the self-esteem with feelings of shamefulness is just too much. From a cognitive standpoint I don't see a rational reason why visiting a therapist needs to be shameful.
Because the thing is your entire guide is based on a cognitive behavioural therapy just as it is done in CBT psychotherapy only here it is in written form. I don't see how doing the same things that are in your guide, but with a therapist, would be such a bad thing. I'm not saying that everyone needs it, in fact I think written guides like this could be just right for most people.
But you say that psychotherapy has no scientific proof as an effective treatment, yet there are many well performed studies giving empirical support for CBT being effective in treating insomnia[here: clinical diagnosis not your broader definition]. This exact evidence is what I assume Gregg Jacobs book is based on, and in turn your guide. Only the book probably hasn't been in randomized clinical trials.
I'm getting a bit argumentative, not really my intention. Maybe you're in fact talking about psychodynamic therapy because as far as I know there is no scientific support for that being effective and I would suddenly agree with the whole paragraph except the self-esteem and shame. But as a future CBT-psychologist (even though I doubt I'll work with it) I felt I had to write few things.
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United States24734 Posts
On April 03 2011 05:04 Sablar wrote:Great job and initiative writing the guide. I like it. As someone studying psychology there are a few things I feel I have to bring up. Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 10:35 micronesia wrote:
[Guide]
What about psychotherapy? Will that help me?
Not only is psychotherapy expensive and time-consuming, but it is usually ineffective in treating insomnia. This is because insomnia is not usually caused by psychological problems. Furthermore, wrongfully believing that your insomnia is caused by problems of the psyche induces feelings of helplessness and lowered self-esteem which can contribute towards increasing the severity of insomnia symptoms. Most importantly, there is no scientific proof that psychotherapy is effective for treating insomnia. Of course, there may be times when psychotherapy is appropriate, so keep that in mind.
I can see how your target audience for this guide is everyday people who are having trouble sleeping. It's not the group that must seek a therapist. At the same time, I think calling it out to be detrimental and having an effect on the self-esteem with feelings of shamefulness is just too much. From a cognitive standpoint I don't see a rational reason why visiting a therapist needs to be shameful. Because the thing is your entire guide is based on a cognitive behavioural therapy just as it is done in CBT psychotherapy only here it is in written form. I don't see how doing the same things that are in your guide, but with a therapist, would be such a bad thing. I'm not saying that everyone needs it, in fact I think written guides like this could be just right for most people. But you say that psychotherapy has no scientific proof as an effective treatment, yet there are many well performed studies giving empirical support for CBT being effective in treating insomnia[here: clinical diagnosis not your broader definition]. This exact evidence is what I assume Gregg Jacobs book is based on, and in turn your guide. Only the book probably hasn't been in randomized clinical trials. I'm getting a bit argumentative, not really my intention. Maybe you're in fact talking about psychodynamic therapy because as far as I know there is no scientific support for that being effective and I would suddenly agree with the whole paragraph except the self-esteem and shame. But as a future CBT-psychologist (even though I doubt I'll work with it) I felt I had to write few things.
Hm I think a bit of miss communication... I'm not saying you should feel shameful for needing therapy, or anything like that. I'm saying if you don't need psychotherapy you shouldn't get it. If you are unable to treat your insomnia by yourself then getting help from someone else makes sense.... but getting it before you need it could make your recovery more drawn out.
Also what I've written is slightly outdated in terms of recent scientific findings. But yes the guide is meant to try to help people before they seek out any type of a professional.... it definitely cannot help everyone and I am not an expert.
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EPT
