|
On May 19 2022 18:46 GreenHorizons wrote:I'm curious if you're familiar with " Indian schools" in North America and how you would compare them to what you know about the Uighur facilities?
The constant non-stop criticism of China is strategic.
A good offense is a good defense. Keep yapping about how bad China is and keep pointing fingers at China then current and past bad acts done by the countries of the free world never come up.
This same strat gets used at workplaces by mediocre and incompetent performers. They just point fingers all day long shifting focus away from their own mediocrity.
|
I think China's environnementals costs are far higher than they're willing to say. Their economic growth never takes it into account, and climate change is sure to apply more pressure on that weakness. They also have to transform their economy to a tertiary as their wages is going up. Most factories are going south, where workers wages are lower.
Also it'd be nice if China could stop targeting a new minority every 15years to supply their organ transplant industry..
|
|
|
|
|
On May 20 2022 02:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2022 01:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 19 2022 18:46 GreenHorizons wrote:I'm curious if you're familiar with " Indian schools" in North America and how you would compare them to what you know about the Uighur facilities? The constant non-stop criticism of China is strategic. A good offense is a good defense. Keep yapping about how bad China is and keep pointing fingers at China then current and past bad acts done by the countries of the free world never come up. This same strat gets used at workplaces by mediocre and incompetent performers. They just point fingers all day long shifting focus away from their own mediocrity. https://twitter.com/ThomasSowell/status/1490342033109798915 Are you suggesting that in a Chinese politics thread we do not talk abiut China? In the other pol threads we tend to talk about the goings on in those countries or regions. Strange it is a problem here.
Isn't it so fucking funny to have a conservative who hates "CRT" talk about burying the "past bad acts done by the countries of the free world"
jesus reality is stranger than fiction
|
I am providing a motive for the China criticism.
|
On May 20 2022 02:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I am providing a motive for the China criticism.
No, you're deflecting the current criticism on China with "but the other country also did bad shit". You also linked the countries who are criticizing China with "bad performers at work". And then you added a sowell quote clearly mocking modern conservatives.
|
On May 20 2022 02:29 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2022 02:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
I am providing a motive for the China criticism. No, you're deflecting the current criticism on China with "but the other country also did bad shit". You also linked the countries who are criticizing China with "bad performers at work". And then you added a sowell quote clearly mocking modern conservatives.
Mocking modern conservatives? huh? i am not mocking modern conservatives. I will make it more clear: Sowell's term "constant criticisms' are what I call "finger pointing". Maybe there is a language barrier or I am incorrectly using local idioms and this is causing confusion.
Constant finger-pointing//criticism keeps the focus off one's own mediocrity. That's it. As I said, "A Good Offense Is A Good Defense".
For further examination into the motives of the Chna criticisms and to bring this back to the questions the OP asked please read my post.
https://tl.net/forum/general/592484-the-chinese-conundrum?page=3#59
|
I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China.
|
|
|
On May 20 2022 03:04 Manit0u wrote:
I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China.
People are not missing the point, they are wilfully trying to deflect criticism by bringing up unrelated scenarios.
|
This Atlantic article relates the experiences of Uyghurs who have moved from China to Turkey and whose families back home have disappeared:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/12/the-autocrats-are-winning/620526/
Tursun is a Uyghur, a member of China’s predominantly Muslim Chinese minority, born in the territory that the Chinese call Xinjiang and that many Uyghurs know as East Turkestan. Tursun had six children—too many in a country where there are strict rules limiting births. Also, she wanted to raise them as Muslims; that, too, was a problem in China. When she became pregnant again, she feared being harassed by police, as women with more than two children often are. She and her husband decided to move to Turkey. They got passports for themselves and for their youngest child, but were told the other passports would take longer. Because of her pregnancy, the three of them came to Istanbul anyway; after she and her daughter were settled, her husband returned for the rest of the family. Then he disappeared.
That was five years ago. Tursun has not spoken with her husband since. In July 2017, she spoke with her sister, who promised to take care of her remaining children. Then they lost contact. A year after that, Tursun came across a video being passed around on WhatsApp. Shot at what appeared to be a Chinese orphanage, it showed Uyghur children, heads shaved and all dressed alike, learning to speak Chinese. One of the children was her daughter Ayshe.
Tursun showed me the video of her daughter. She also showed me a picture of her husband standing in an Istanbul mosque. She cannot speak to either one of them, or to any of the rest of her children in China. She has no way to know what they are thinking. They might not know she has searched for them. They might believe she has abandoned them on purpose. They might have forgotten she exists.
[snip]
The translator for my conversation with Tursun was Nursiman Abdureshid. She is also a Uyghur, also from Xinjiang, also married, also with a daughter, also now living in Istanbul. Abdureshid came to Turkey as a student, convinced that she had the backing of the Chinese state. A graduate of Shanghai University of Finance and Economics, she had studied business administration, learned excellent Turkish and English, made ethnic-Chinese friends. She had never thought of herself as a rebel or a dissident. Why would she have? She was a Chinese success story.
Abdureshid’s break with her old life came in June 2017, when, after an ordinary conversation with her family back in China, they stopped answering her calls. She texted and got no response. Weeks passed. After many months, she contacted the consulate in Istanbul—she asked a Turkish friend to call for her—and officials there finally told her the truth: Her father, mother, and younger brother were in prison camps, each for “preparing to commit terrorist activities.”
Here is a two-page report by the US Congressional Research Service about the Uyghur people in Xinjiang:
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF10281/36
With the apparent strong backing of Communist Party
General Secretary Xi Jinping, beginning in 2016, the new
Communist Party Secretary of the XUAR, former Tibet
Party Secretary Chen Quanguo, stepped up security
measures aimed at the Uyghur population. Such actions
have included the installation of thousands of neighborhood
police kiosks, more intrusive monitoring of Internet use,
and the collection of biometric data for identification
purposes. The central government sent an estimated one
million officials and state workers from outside Xinjiang,
mostly ethnic Han, to live temporarily in the homes of
Uyghurs to assess their loyalty to the Communist Party.
According to some estimates, since 2017, Xinjiang
authorities have arbitrarily detained approximately 1.5
million Turkic Muslims, mostly ethnic Uyghurs and a
smaller number of Kazakhs, in “reeducation camps.” PRC
officials describe the Xinjiang facilities as “vocational
education and training centers” where “trainees” study
Chinese, learn job skills, undergo “de-extremization” and
be “cured of ideological infection.” Some may have
engaged in religious and ethnic cultural practices that the
government now perceives as extremist, or as manifesting
“strongly religious” views or thoughts that could lead to the
spread of religious extremism or terrorism. Detainees
reportedly are compelled to renounce many of their Islamic
beliefs and customs and to undergo self-criticisms.
According to some former detainees, treatment and
conditions in the camps include crowded and unsanitary
conditions, forced labor, food deprivation, beatings, and
sexual abuse.
|
On May 20 2022 04:13 emperorchampion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2022 03:04 Manit0u wrote:
I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China. People are not missing the point, they are wilfully trying to deflect criticism by bringing up unrelated scenarios.
No, I am answering the questions posed in the OP.
https://tl.net/forum/general/592484-the-chinese-conundrum?page=3#59
I do not want US military spending to rise because I think the "Chinese threat" is exaggerated similar to how the USSR threat was exaggerated from 1950 to 1990. Despite total media saturation on the topic the impending Nuclear Holocaust never happened. The US Taxpayer got clowned. Based on video games and hollywood tho ... everyone loves a good "post apocalypse". So they were preaching to the choir.
|
On May 20 2022 04:50 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2022 04:13 emperorchampion wrote:On May 20 2022 03:04 Manit0u wrote:
I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China. People are not missing the point, they are wilfully trying to deflect criticism by bringing up unrelated scenarios. No, I am answering the questions posed in the OP. https://tl.net/forum/general/592484-the-chinese-conundrum?page=3#59I do not want US military spending to rise because I think the "Chinese threat" is exaggerated similar to how the USSR threat was exaggerated from 1950 to 1990. Despite total media saturation on the topic the impending Nuclear Holocaust never happened. The US Taxpayer got clowned. Based on video games and hollywood tho ... everyone loves a good "post apocalypse". So they were preaching to the choir.
My comment wasn't really related to yours. Anyhow, it's pure speculation, but I agree that US military spending will, unfortunately, probably stay around where it is for the foreseeable future. Thankfully I don't pay taxes there.
|
|
|
On May 20 2022 07:36 JimmiC wrote:
When a soverign country just invades another military spending does not seem as wasteful. I think most countries will be increasing tgeir budgets.
Unfortunately yes almost certainly
|
[QUOTE]On May 20 2022 04:40 Djabanete wrote:
This Atlantic article relates the experiences of Uyghurs who have moved from China to Turkey and whose families back home have disappeared:
[url=https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/12/the-autocrats-are-winning/620526/]https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/12/the-autocrats-are-winning/620526/[/url]
[quote]
Tursun is a Uyghur, a member of China’s predominantly Muslim Chinese minority, born in the territory that the Chinese call Xinjiang and that many Uyghurs know as East Turkestan. Tursun had six children—too many in a country where there are strict rules limiting births. Also, she wanted to raise them as Muslims; that, too, was a problem in China. When she became pregnant again, she feared being harassed by police, as women with more than two children often are. She and her husband decided to move to Turkey. They got passports for themselves and for their youngest child, but were told the other passports would take longer. Because of her pregnancy, the three of them came to Istanbul anyway; after she and her daughter were settled, her husband returned for the rest of the family. Then he disappeared.
That was five years ago. Tursun has not spoken with her husband since. In July 2017, she spoke with her sister, who promised to take care of her remaining children. Then they lost contact. A year after that, Tursun came across a video being passed around on WhatsApp. Shot at what appeared to be a Chinese orphanage, it showed Uyghur children, heads shaved and all dressed alike, learning to speak Chinese. One of the children was her daughter Ayshe.
Tursun showed me the video of her daughter. She also showed me a picture of her husband standing in an Istanbul mosque. She cannot speak to either one of them, or to any of the rest of her children in China. She has no way to know what they are thinking. They might not know she has searched for them. They might believe she has abandoned them on purpose. They might have forgotten she exists.
[snip]
[url=https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF10281/36]https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF10281/36[/url]
[quote]
[/quote][/QUOTE]
I don't think that magazine published the backgrounds, which are not stories but facts.
On March 1st,2014, 8 Xinjiang terrorist killing people insanely with machetes at Kunming Railwaystation Waiting Hall, caused 31 death and 141 injured.
On April 30th,2014，2 terrorist detonated explosives in crowds at Xinjiang Urumuqi South Railwaystaion,caused 3 death and 79 injured.
On March 22nd,2014，5 terrorist using jeeps and explosives at Urumuqi Shayibak Park, caused 39death and 94 injured.
On September 18th, 2015，a group of terrorists attacked a mining at Aksu Xinjiang, caused 16 death and 18 injured........
So I guess the story you supplied sounds reasonable if the so-called Tursun's relatives are involved in above events. And I find many flaws in your story.
Considering you and I are not living in Xinjiang, we both do not know what is the real situations there, UyghurLifeMatter, that's something we both agree. btw on chinese magazines they don't bother to describe how painful Floyd died or the sorrow of his wife/son....that's a difference.
|
@Dejabenet
I can offer you even better stories, true tragic stories that happened around me recently, during the lock-down period in my city and rural areas, a family is stopped at the entrance of a hospital because they lack of recent 48h nucleic acid test results, their baby died due to untimely help.
you can imagine the anger of people on such a tragic.
Does it prove that the chinese local goverment is shit? or the whole system is wrong? Not every chinese is satisfied with the goverment, there is complains everywhere, but...if you suggest that for this reason the chinese goverment is evil and must be overthrow, I don't think many chinese will agree with you.
|
On May 20 2022 10:44 fakovski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2022 04:40 Djabanete wrote:This Atlantic article relates the experiences of Uyghurs who have moved from China to Turkey and whose families back home have disappeared: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/12/the-autocrats-are-winning/620526/
Tursun is a Uyghur, a member of China’s predominantly Muslim Chinese minority, born in the territory that the Chinese call Xinjiang and that many Uyghurs know as East Turkestan. Tursun had six children—too many in a country where there are strict rules limiting births. Also, she wanted to raise them as Muslims; that, too, was a problem in China. When she became pregnant again, she feared being harassed by police, as women with more than two children often are. She and her husband decided to move to Turkey. They got passports for themselves and for their youngest child, but were told the other passports would take longer. Because of her pregnancy, the three of them came to Istanbul anyway; after she and her daughter were settled, her husband returned for the rest of the family. Then he disappeared.
That was five years ago. Tursun has not spoken with her husband since. In July 2017, she spoke with her sister, who promised to take care of her remaining children. Then they lost contact. A year after that, Tursun came across a video being passed around on WhatsApp. Shot at what appeared to be a Chinese orphanage, it showed Uyghur children, heads shaved and all dressed alike, learning to speak Chinese. One of the children was her daughter Ayshe.
Tursun showed me the video of her daughter. She also showed me a picture of her husband standing in an Istanbul mosque. She cannot speak to either one of them, or to any of the rest of her children in China. She has no way to know what they are thinking. They might not know she has searched for them. They might believe she has abandoned them on purpose. They might have forgotten she exists.
[snip]
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF10281/36
I don't think that magazine published the backgrounds, which are not stories but facts. On March 1st,2014, 8 Xinjiang terrorist killing people insanely with machetes at Kunming Railwaystation Waiting Hall, caused 31 death and 141 injured. On April 30th,2014，2 terrorist detonated explosives in crowds at Xinjiang Urumuqi South Railwaystaion,caused 3 death and 79 injured. On March 22nd,2014，5 terrorist using jeeps and explosives at Urumuqi Shayibak Park, caused 39death and 94 injured. On September 18th, 2015，a group of terrorists attacked a mining at Aksu Xinjiang, caused 16 death and 18 injured........ So I guess the story you supplied sounds reasonable if the so-called Tursun's relatives are involved in above events. And I find many flaws in your story. Considering you and I are not living in Xinjiang, we both do not know what is the real situations there, UyghurLifeMatter, that's something we both agree. btw on chinese magazines they don't bother to describe how painful Floyd died or the sorrow of his wife/son....that's a difference.
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
Not gonna react to your next whataboutism.
|
I actually wanted to say "How can one just ssume that story is true without any evidence, simply because its on AtlanticsMagazine?"
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
