On May 19 2022 11:41 fakovski wrote: Urkrainian, when they naively choose a comedian，they put their fate in others' hands.
Russia's tragic blundering in Ukraine is not the example I would select if I wanted to portray dictatorships as more powerful than democracies.
Exactly. I think Zelensky is doing way better than anyone had imagined him (or anyone else) doing.
Electing anyone else (except maybe a hardcore Putin stooge) wouldn't have stopped this from happening. And Zelensky is basically crushing it. Keeping up fighting moral, getting international support and so forth. Leading to Ukraine starting to win the war at this point.
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
This has to be the worst argument i have read in a long time.
Just because people are suffering does not mean that they don't birth children. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The countries fertility rates very strongly negatively correspond with wealth in a country. The countries where people tend to have the most children are also the countries where life in general is pretty shitty.
Regarding the second part, that is a very classic whataboutism. I am not from the US, and i was very opposed to the US wars in the last decades. And yet this still is not an argument in any way related to how shitty china treats its minorities.
Edit: Also, the fact that you don't have access to huge parts of the internet should really make you think.
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
Indians were annihilated, millions african slaves were captured to america, US troops kill civilians everywhere in the name of anti-terrorist, is that bloody killing fanaticism the nature of Anglo-Saxons？ the problem of their humanity as a whole?
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
This has to be the worst argument i have read in a long time.
Just because people are suffering does not mean that they don't birth children. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The countries fertility rates very strongly negatively correspond with wealth in a country. The countries where people tend to have the most children are also the countries where life in general is pretty shitty.
Regarding the second part, that is a very classic whataboutism. I am not from the US, and i was very opposed to the US wars in the last decades. And yet this still is not an argument in any way related to how shitty china treats its minorities.
Edit: Also, the fact that you don't have access to huge parts of the internet should really make you think.
I was limited by my English skills, man , I do have many minority-race friends in China, I don't know "how shitty" could it be. BTW I was living in Germany between 2002-2008, when I had"access to huge parts of the internet", the things I found on the web do make me think, how could they be so blind and deaf.
On May 19 2022 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: If you have low self esteem your life is lousy no matter how good the social safety net is.
Perhaps, but neither is self-esteem a substitute for the material necessities that allow for a dignified existence.
Also, the idea that you cannot have healthy self-esteem while benefiting from social programs is absurd.
Here ends my derailment of this thread about China.
On May 19 2022 11:41 fakovski wrote: Urkrainian, when they naively choose a comedian，they put their fate in others' hands.
Russia's tragic blundering in Ukraine is not the example I would select if I wanted to portray dictatorships as more powerful than democracies.
I meant, if Urkrainians selected a wise leader, they might have avoided the fate of a pawn,
... by becoming the property of Russia?
This train of thought originated with you saying that dictatorships are looking stronger than democracies. Your example of democratic weakness is Ukraine *not* surrendering to a dictator when given the chance. But to me, it’s an example of a dictator’s weakness that he tried to f*** with a former comedian and now is totally alone in the world.
I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
On May 19 2022 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: If you have low self esteem your life is lousy no matter how good the social safety net is.
Perhaps, but neither is self-esteem a substitute for the material necessities that allow for a dignified existence.
Also, the idea that you cannot have healthy self-esteem while benefiting from social programs is absurd.
Here ends my derailment of this thread about China.
On May 19 2022 11:41 fakovski wrote: Urkrainian, when they naively choose a comedian，they put their fate in others' hands.
Russia's tragic blundering in Ukraine is not the example I would select if I wanted to portray dictatorships as more powerful than democracies.
I meant, if Urkrainians selected a wise leader, they might have avoided the fate of a pawn,
... by becoming the property of Russia?
This train of thought originated with you saying that dictatorships are looking stronger than democracies. Your example of democratic weakness is Ukraine *not* surrendering to a dictator when given the chance. But to me, it’s an example of a dictator’s weakness that he tried to f*** with a former comedian and now is totally alone in the world.
no I suggested nothing about surrending, I mean if they have a wise leader who can choose to stop seeking for NATO membership, the war might be avoided. Finnland were not seeking for NATO membership , were they feel unsafe before the war?Russia is now a weak country, do you think they are eager to start a war?maybe they just dont want to someday wake up in the morning and find missile-plants 700kms(kiev) south of Moscow? edit: If someday China made a millitary organization and called mexico to join in, what will the americans do?
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
It is, unfortunately, a very pervasive culture in China to mind your own business. It's very commonly thought that if you get nosy you get in trouble that isn't yours to begin with.
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
Indians were annihilated, millions african slaves were captured to america, US troops kill civilians everywhere in the name of anti-terrorist, is that bloody killing fanaticism the nature of Anglo-Saxons？ the problem of their humanity as a whole?
I stand by what I said. Human rights abuses are fundamentally the concern of all people. It is morally repugnant to pretend they don’t exist when they do exist or to justify them by invoking other human rights abuses done by other people.
“What we do to our ethnic minorities is our own business, and even if it is wrong, it’s not as bad as the genocide of the Native Americans and the enslavement of Africans.” <— Red flag
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
This has to be the worst argument i have read in a long time.
Just because people are suffering does not mean that they don't birth children. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The countries fertility rates very strongly negatively correspond with wealth in a country. The countries where people tend to have the most children are also the countries where life in general is pretty shitty.
Regarding the second part, that is a very classic whataboutism. I am not from the US, and i was very opposed to the US wars in the last decades. And yet this still is not an argument in any way related to how shitty china treats its minorities.
Edit: Also, the fact that you don't have access to huge parts of the internet should really make you think.
I was limited by my English skills, man , I do have many minority-race friends in China, I don't know "how shitty" could it be. BTW I was living in Germany between 2002-2008, when I had"access to huge parts of the internet", the things I found on the web do make me think, how could they be so blind and deaf.
I'm curious if you're familiar with "Indian schools" in North America and how you would compare them to what you know about the Uighur facilities?
It seems to me that some people in the West generally believe that regarding the Uighur facilities, like American-Indian boarding schools in North America, what was/is portrayed by the government, media, etc as reasonable assimilation is, for all intents and purposes, genocidal.
I don't have enough reliable information to confidently claim I know where Uighur facilities fall on the "humane assimilation to genocidal" scale (In NA, policies toward Indigenous peoples particularly in the US were and arguably still are genocidal) but I'd appreciate your perspective in that context.
Perhaps something about what your government and mainstream media tell you about Uighur's circumstances in/after those facilities and how that compares to what it is you personally believe it is like for them. I recognize you don't think they are as bad as they are portrayed in Western media and I'm inclined to agree with that. I do wonder though if they are and/or you believe they are exactly as the Chinese government portrays them internationally.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
Chinese people are about as smart or stupid as everyone else.
You constantly refer to the past to make your arguments. That does not really work though. Just because China has supposedly been peaceful for 5000 years (which is a completely baseless statement btw.) this does not mean they keep this up. Just because uyghurs reproduced a lot in the last 50 years this does not mean they are not suffering right now.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
Chinese people are about as smart or stupid as everyone else.
You constantly refer to the past to make your arguments. That does not really work though. Just because China has supposedly been peaceful for 5000 years (which is a completely baseless statement btw.) this does not mean they keep this up. Just because uyghurs reproduced a lot in the last 50 years this does not mean they are not suffering right now.
The reason I use uyghurs population is for a flagrant contrast to the population of indians in North America, I said I am over 2000KMs away from xingjiang, that is like talking about what happend in italy while sitting in moscow.......sorry I have no time now, I am off-work for a date, it is 6:20p.m here.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021)
I think the question here is if the end justify the means: When you have a look at the chinese history of the last century you'll find atrocities which the CCP is responsible for or memebers of the CCP. If those atrocities were justified and necessary(!) evils to get China to where it is today nobody can anwser. We will never know if they were necessary because we cannot turn back time and do it differently. Also there's no correct anwser when it comes to questions like ,,is it justifiable''; morals and ethics are relative not absolute terms, depending on the interpretation of each individual.
For example, you have to anwser the following question yourself: Do you believe it was necessary and do you think it was justified that many million chinese were directly or indirectly murdered to get china where it is today by the CCP or not?
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: [...] one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
I don't think anyone questions that there are smart chinese people. Why would you even differentiate by nationality when it comes to intelligence or smartness or w/e?
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
Try to imaging following scene: You listen to one of the speeches by any of the NSDAP higher-ups sometime between 1933 and 1939. They more or less directly mention they don't really like jews and they plan on taking care of them. Whatever they mean by that. Later you're talking to some german guy on the internet. You tell him you're kinda worried for the jews in the world bc of things those german political figures with power are stating. Also Germany's economy is growing rapidly and they invest more and more money in their military. That german guy is kind of confused and anwsers: Why would you be worried about Germany? It's a responsible power with a culture that dates back thousand years or more.
I don't think I have to put that in context for you except for maybe the ,,don't really like jew part''. It's no secret that the CCP condemns ,,western'' values like freedom of speech/press or universal values of human rights; also democracy itself. Xi jinping actually stated these things are among the 7 biggest dangers to china itself. (I'm refering to the so called document 9 that was leaked sometime in 2012 i believe.) Also he swore to fight for communism after he was elected as CCP leader.
So, I hope you understand why i don't think your argument is reassuring when it comes to whether or not China is a global threat or not.
Finally i want to mention that when i'm talking about China i'm talking about its government not it's people.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
People don't admit that the Chinese are smart and diligent people. First smartness is proven not to exist and is a function of educating the right minds, something china lags behind almost the entire world in it's workforce, and secondly we know about the culture of cheating and sloth in responsibility in China. It's a culture everywhere and having empty cities filed with concrete coffin apartments doesn't inspire much for people.
You don't need to reinvent the wheel to have a wheel. All those things aren't new inventive or bespoke achievements. Most are tech transfers from Russia on the military side and are reverse engineered from all the things made in china over the years on the civilian side. Half of those things china has to claim that it's decades at best behind the west despite having examples of it everywhere to follow.
I will admit that it's going to be nice to be in a new cold war with a nation that isn't going to war with us and isn't interested in it. China is admirable that they'd prefer the long game over everything.
On an aside though what are they saying about the lockdowns in the major cities and the covid spreading in nk? I don't really trust much of what comes out of China to us but they have to tell their own people the truth about what's going on right?
Try to imaging following scene: You listen to one of the speeches by any of the NSDAP higher-ups sometime between 1933 and 1939. They more or less directly mention they don't really like jews and they plan on taking care of them. Whatever they mean by that. Later you're talking to some german guy on the internet. You tell him you're kinda worried for the jews in the world bc of things those german political figures with power are stating. Also Germany's economy is growing rapidly and they invest more and more money in their military. That german guy is kind of confused and anwsers: Why would you be worried about Germany? It's a responsible power with a culture that dates back thousand years or more.
I don't think I have to put that in context for you except for maybe the ,,don't really like jew part''. It's no secret that the CCP condemns ,,western'' values like freedom of speech/press or universal values of human rights; also democracy itself. Xi jinping actually stated these things are among the 7 biggest dangers to china itself. (I'm refering to the so called document 9 that was leaked sometime in 2012 i believe.) Also he swore to fight for communism after he was elected as CCP leader.
Now I understand your logic, your logic is perfect and invincible IF XI is a potential Hitler!
When I was abroad I was given leaflets of so-called "secret documents of CCP", 20 years later I still can remember a wide-spread article called"the 9 sins of CCP", but do you know that it was on some Taiwan-sponsored papers. Xi was born in a communist family, so its natural for him to fight for communism, so what's the wrong with his oath? He is fighting for communism doesn't mean he will bring people to a new revolution.
China has 80million CCP members, I am NOT one of them, most ppl are not actually interested in politics today and those who want to join the party are merely seeking for some convenience , party members get a slight bigger chance to promote in govermental jobs(for high rank jobs, membership is more useful but not a must).
And for the "It's no secret that the CCP condemns ,,western'' values like freedom of speech/press or universal values of human rights" thing, I don't know how do you come this far, in your description CCP sounds quite evil. I don't deny that in the 1960-70s the "culture revolution" caused great starvation and millions death. It was a total tragic and the biggest mistake of MAO, but the CCP learned from her faults and start an openling policy shortly after. China today is more like a capitalism society, IF the CCP is still what she is in the 1950s, your worring sounds more reasonable .
Things have changed, so should be the minds of people.
btw I seem to be the only chinese in this topic, I don't have so much energy and interest to debate with everyone, especially when these debates are endless and usually makeno changes in real world.
EPT
