Since we have all of those politics/economics mega-threads I thought it was quite warranted to create one specifically for China as stuff that's going down there is really absurd.
I've been following the developments there ever since before COVID went global and a lot has happened but let's just look at the most recent events:
1. No more freedom of religion in Hong Kong. They've also arrested a 90 year old Catholic cardinal. 2. 0 COVID policy is getting ridiculous, you have millions of people locked in their homes in big cities like Shanghai or even entire provinces. The thing is, lockdown should last 14 days but whenever someone in your building tests positive for COVID they reset the counter for the whole building. Now they've reset the counter for everyone, just because. Some people have been locked up for 2 months now. Potentially more people will die from starvation or suicide than would ever die if there were absolutely no measures implemented against COVID. Another thing is that this caused the biggest port in the world to be closed, which will severely disrupt supply chains on a global scale. 3. Most Chinese people can no longer leave the country. Their passports are being shredded, as well as foreign green cards. 4. A lot of businesses are moving out of China and setting up shop elsewhere (Vietnam mostly), which will probably have huge impact on Chinese economy. 5. China and Eritreia are the only countries in the world who voted against UN investigation into potential war crimes in the Russian/Ukrainian war. 6. The official US policy on Taiwan has changed. The Department of State has changed its Taiwan relationship website. The sentence "The US does not support Taiwan independence." has been removed.
And that's just a few of the recent news coming from there. It's actually pretty scary reading/hearing all about it and what it will all lead to. Potential uprising when people can no longer stand being oppressed so much? CCP has even banned the first line of Chinese national anthem from the Internet and media as people started shouting it out aloud from their windows when locked up (the line in English reads "Stand up! Those who refuse to be slaves!").
I wonder what are other people's thoughts on the current situation in China and where will it lead potentially.
As the vassal of China it has gotten bad enough that north Korea is admitting there is an outbreak in the country now. That's super bad for both sides.
Yeah those Hong Kong protests were huge, until Covid hit and the harsh lockdowns killed them off.Its been downhill fast for HK since then.
As for the new lockdowns in Shanghai I did mention them on the coronavirus thread a few weeks back but nobody really posts there anymore.You still get a few people that support lockdowns but I doubt you’ll find any outside China supporting the insanity happening in Shanghai.
Another subject that's quite fascinating, how shitty apartments in China are worth millions of US dollars while at the same time there's thousands of apartment complexes that are completely empty.
I have to wonder if those lockdowns are logistically worth it? Like, living in America during the Trump administration, I was kinda envious how serious China was taking the disease, being able to build hospitals in days to maintain the crisis while we had so much red states completely ignoring the crisis and the federal government doin absolutely nothing.
The thing with a pandemic though is, drastic measures look exactly like adequate measures, when we’re dealing with a exponentially spreading virus.
At the start they made sense considering the huge loss of life and large uncertainties surrounding Covid. But especially since there are good vaccines and there's been enough time to vaccinate they don't make much sense anymore. China's zero covid strategy made a lot of sense to buy time to fully vaccinate with good vaccines but they didn't do the last part. For whatever reason they don't use the best (western) vaccines and aren't willing to mandate vaccines for the elderly even though they have no problem locking everyone down in their homes for months. So they're stuck in perpetual lockdowns without a good way out.
On May 17 2022 17:00 RvB wrote: At the start they made sense considering the huge loss of life and large uncertainties surrounding Covid. But especially since there are good vaccines and there's been enough time to vaccinate they don't make much sense anymore. China's zero covid strategy made a lot of sense to buy time to fully vaccinate with good vaccines but they didn't do the last part. For whatever reason they don't use the best (western) vaccines and aren't willing to mandate vaccines for the elderly even though they have no problem locking everyone down in their homes for months. So they're stuck in perpetual lockdowns without a good way out.
They don't use western vaccines because of ideological differences. The Party, having relentlessly advertised the supremacy of the "Chinese system" to its people, cannot be seen to rely on evil western imperialists for vaccines.
On May 14 2022 18:38 Manit0u wrote: Since we have all of those politics/economics mega-threads I thought it was quite warranted to create one specifically for China as stuff that's going down there is really absurd.
I've been following the developments there ever since before COVID went global and a lot has happened but let's just look at the most recent events:
1. No more freedom of religion in Hong Kong. They've also arrested a 90 year old Catholic cardinal. 2. 0 COVID policy is getting ridiculous, you have millions of people locked in their homes in big cities like Shanghai or even entire provinces. The thing is, lockdown should last 14 days but whenever someone in your building tests positive for COVID they reset the counter for the whole building. Now they've reset the counter for everyone, just because. Some people have been locked up for 2 months now. Potentially more people will die from starvation or suicide than would ever die if there were absolutely no measures implemented against COVID. Another thing is that this caused the biggest port in the world to be closed, which will severely disrupt supply chains on a global scale. 3. Most Chinese people can no longer leave the country. Their passports are being shredded, as well as foreign green cards. 4. A lot of businesses are moving out of China and setting up shop elsewhere (Vietnam mostly), which will probably have huge impact on Chinese economy. 5. China and Eritreia are the only countries in the world who voted against UN investigation into potential war crimes in the Russian/Ukrainian war. 6. The official US policy on Taiwan has changed. The Department of State has changed its Taiwan relationship website. The sentence "The US does not support Taiwan independence." has been removed.
And that's just a few of the recent news coming from there. It's actually pretty scary reading/hearing all about it and what it will all lead to. Potential uprising when people can no longer stand being oppressed so much? CCP has even banned the first line of Chinese national anthem from the Internet and media as people started shouting it out aloud from their windows when locked up (the line in English reads "Stand up! Those who refuse to be slaves!").
I wonder what are other people's thoughts on the current situation in China and where will it lead potentially.
Well now I have some time to respond to your "sacry" hearings, This post could lead to a ban (if it did happen, check the last centence of answer 1.)
1. I search on chinese website, there is indeed a piece of news about this story, and his church is not really some serious church as we all know, and US is founding those "anti-china" groups or organizations as always. Usually, as a common chinese I don't really care about what happend in HK, you know ，China is as big as Europe, so a cardinal arrested in HK is not as interesting as news like "some urkrainian refregee got raped in poland". You got such information from CNN or whatever western papers, you don't really know what really happened and feel scary for some unknow reason? you can call me or any chinese "brain-washed", well, how do you know you are not? can you find enough rus-urk war news from the rus side? information-block happens everywhere ,even on a game forum.
2.why 0 COVID policy is ridiculous? because we are not behave the same way with you, so we are ridiculous? CNN reported a million death caused by covid in the US, if china lay down like other countries, at least 5million death would be expected....the goverment care about people's lives, is that wrong? oh, you might find it not "free" , but under some serious circumstances personal freedom need to be constrained for the great objectives, my city got a 2 week lockdown, I don't complain about that, I didn't see anyone around get mad about the policy. remeber days ago some 18year-old kid kill 10+ with a rifle in newyork state? that is really impressive freedom
3. I checked the news,it is a rumor, and offically refuted, my passport is staying in a drawer, and I will not have any plan to travel around in such days.
4. That is a truth, but the impact is not that huge .
5. I checked on chinese website, because I was curious where are the russians ,it is true. China has her own opinion on the whole event. Well, this is hard to explain, but I believe, russia, as a weak country in recent 30 years, are not willing to start a war, unless she is pushed to the last standing point?
6. I don't really care about the American policy. if a war is not avoidable between China and U.S, it will be a true desarster to everyone.
I don't smell any "scary" things are closing, and if you are a polish, shouldn't you worry about the war on your door, rather than a remote country in the orient
sorry for my cutting words, I am not really good at this language.
On May 17 2022 17:00 RvB wrote: At the start they made sense considering the huge loss of life and large uncertainties surrounding Covid. But especially since there are good vaccines and there's been enough time to vaccinate they don't make much sense anymore. China's zero covid strategy made a lot of sense to buy time to fully vaccinate with good vaccines but they didn't do the last part. For whatever reason they don't use the best (western) vaccines and aren't willing to mandate vaccines for the elderly even though they have no problem locking everyone down in their homes for months. So they're stuck in perpetual lockdowns without a good way out.
They don't use western vaccines because of ideological differences. The Party, having relentlessly advertised the supremacy of the "Chinese system" to its people, cannot be seen to rely on evil western imperialists for vaccines.
Can't they just copy western vaccines and sell under new name like they do with everything else?
On May 17 2022 17:00 RvB wrote: At the start they made sense considering the huge loss of life and large uncertainties surrounding Covid. But especially since there are good vaccines and there's been enough time to vaccinate they don't make much sense anymore. China's zero covid strategy made a lot of sense to buy time to fully vaccinate with good vaccines but they didn't do the last part. For whatever reason they don't use the best (western) vaccines and aren't willing to mandate vaccines for the elderly even though they have no problem locking everyone down in their homes for months. So they're stuck in perpetual lockdowns without a good way out.
They don't use western vaccines because of ideological differences. The Party, having relentlessly advertised the supremacy of the "Chinese system" to its people, cannot be seen to rely on evil western imperialists for vaccines.
Can't they just copy western vaccines and sell under new name like they do with everything else?
They don't yet have mRNA technology, they're trying but clinical trials haven't passed yet.
On May 17 2022 17:00 RvB wrote: At the start they made sense considering the huge loss of life and large uncertainties surrounding Covid. But especially since there are good vaccines and there's been enough time to vaccinate they don't make much sense anymore. China's zero covid strategy made a lot of sense to buy time to fully vaccinate with good vaccines but they didn't do the last part. For whatever reason they don't use the best (western) vaccines and aren't willing to mandate vaccines for the elderly even though they have no problem locking everyone down in their homes for months. So they're stuck in perpetual lockdowns without a good way out.
They don't use western vaccines because of ideological differences. The Party, having relentlessly advertised the supremacy of the "Chinese system" to its people, cannot be seen to rely on evil western imperialists for vaccines.
The official propaganda states that western vaccines are not suited for Chinese physiology...
On May 17 2022 15:33 lestye wrote: I have to wonder if those lockdowns are logistically worth it? Like, living in America during the Trump administration, I was kinda envious how serious China was taking the disease, being able to build hospitals in days to maintain the crisis while we had so much red states completely ignoring the crisis and the federal government doin absolutely nothing.
The thing with a pandemic though is, drastic measures look exactly like adequate measures, when we’re dealing with a exponentially spreading virus.
Lockdowns are good if implemented right. Just look how Vietnam or New Zealand have cracked down on COVID in the beginning, employing strict distancing, masks etc. and they had 1-2 new cases daily instead of thousands.
What China is doing now is serious overkill, especially that it has led to the collapse of food delivery systems and now people under lockdown are potentially dying of starvation. Some westerners (who have preferential treatment) that got caught in it were reporting that they get food delivered but it's like once a week or two and you get a bag of rotten vegetables. Hardly something you can subsist on for extended periods of time.
And regarding those hospitals that were built in days, I don't think any of them have actually been functional. People who have recently been moved to such facilities have posted some disturbing images with people in beds covered with tarp or plastic because the rain is literally pouring down on them etc.
On May 17 2022 17:00 RvB wrote: At the start they made sense considering the huge loss of life and large uncertainties surrounding Covid. But especially since there are good vaccines and there's been enough time to vaccinate they don't make much sense anymore. China's zero covid strategy made a lot of sense to buy time to fully vaccinate with good vaccines but they didn't do the last part. For whatever reason they don't use the best (western) vaccines and aren't willing to mandate vaccines for the elderly even though they have no problem locking everyone down in their homes for months. So they're stuck in perpetual lockdowns without a good way out.
They don't use western vaccines because of ideological differences. The Party, having relentlessly advertised the supremacy of the "Chinese system" to its people, cannot be seen to rely on evil western imperialists for vaccines.
Can't they just copy western vaccines and sell under new name like they do with everything else?
They don't yet have mRNA technology, they're trying but clinical trials haven't passed yet.
Even after stealing what they can it's extremely difficult to catch up on the last 4-6 years of technology when you have the lowest percentage of college and high school educated workforce in your economic tier. Us pharmaceutical companies aren't going to open a factory in China for the vaccine knowing how it's gone for everyone else.
On May 17 2022 21:41 fakovski wrote: very interesting to digest imaginations and speculation out of the heads on the other side of the planet
I mean yeah it's hard to get uncensored media coverage out of some parts of the world. It's good to hear what they are telling you over there as much as it's for you to find out what they say over here.
On May 17 2022 22:16 JimmiC wrote: China has been increasing their coal use and is one of the few countries that is still actively building coal power plants. These are one of, if not the, worst forms of a energy for humanity to use to power itself. China has said it will peak its carbon pollution by before 2030 and then work toward carbon neutrality. While this is still possible this increase in coal is going to make it much harder to achieve either and WAY more expensive.
China Currently produces 29.18% (7.38 per capita) of the worlds Co2 and that is rising (Us is 2 and 14.02 (15.52 per capita), India at 7.09 (1.91 per capita) and Russia at 4.65 (11.44 per capita).
Here is a long article for those interested. It contains both critics and very optimistic government sources. It discusses the whys behind the continued rise of coal and when it may stop, China's announced environmental goals and a whole host of other topics.
Hmm... This seems doubly counter-productive in that China can't even meet it's own current coal demands without huge imports and they cancelled their deal with Australia for their coal which was a huge blow to their energy sector, resulting in power shortages and blackouts across the country (even some major cities need to have traffic lights and street lights turned off at night, plenty of factories can't operate etc.)
I guess this might have something to do with some of their other energy sources failing. There seems to be one nuclear power plant leaking (but it's OK as they simply increase the allowed radiation limit in the province every week or month so there's no problem, right?) and several of their dams failing (which might be quite catastrophic in case of a domino effect).
Yes, that's definitely part of that. The biggest problem for them with cancelling this deal is not just the large quantities of coal imported from Australia, it was also of much higher quality than their domestic coal, which makes it even harder to replace as they have to burn much more of their own coal to achieve similar results.
On May 17 2022 23:31 Manit0u wrote: Yes, that's definitely part of that. The biggest problem for them with cancelling this deal is not just the large quantities of coal imported from Australia, it was also of much higher quality than their domestic coal, which makes it even harder to replace as they have to burn much more of their own coal to achieve similar results.
That is too bad since it also likely means more pollutants. If people thought communism was going to save us from environmental impact China would like to have words with you. Going to have to stop blaming political ideology and other people and all work together on this or we are phucked.
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
I am not even sure what is left of communism in China except a party dictatorship.
I have warned about the unsustainable covid-0 policy China is up to. This should do long term damage to China as a trading partner, but probably less than Russia did by invading Ukraine.
On May 17 2022 18:01 fakovski wrote: 2.why 0 COVID policy is ridiculous? because we are not behave the same way with you, so we are ridiculous? CNN reported a million death caused by covid in the US, if china lay down like other countries, at least 5million death would be expected....the goverment care about people's lives, is that wrong? oh, you might find it not "free" , but under some serious circumstances personal freedom need to be constrained for the great objectives, my city got a 2 week lockdown, I don't complain about that, I didn't see anyone around get mad about the policy. remeber days ago some 18year-old kid kill 10+ with a rifle in newyork state? that is really impressive freedom
I'm just curious about this point. I'm in Portugal, where almost 100% of all adults are vaccinated, the vast majority with 3 doses of mRNA vaccines. We're undergoing a COVID wave right now. Meanwhile, there are no mask mandates anymore outside of public transit. Life is mostly normal. We accept the 'cost' of the cases, the same way we accept the cost of bad cases of flu.
Given that the virus is going to stay here on Earth in circulation, and it will continue to evolve, what is the long-term plan in China? Will cities lockdown every single time there are a few cases? Does that mean, in practice, that circulation of people between China and the rest of the world is locked forever? Will Chinese cities be locking down four times every year?
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Maybe what was commonly referred to as communism in the West. Doesn't have much to do with communism itself. That would entail having a stateless, classless society where the people control the means of production. China is none of that. Quite the opposite, actually. It is an authoritarian state (turning totalitarian again), with explicit classes. The people have very limited influence on the means of production.
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Maybe what was commonly referred to as communism in the West. Doesn't have much to do with communism itself. That would entail having a stateless, classless society where the people control the means of production. China is none of that. Quite the opposite, actually. It is an authoritarian state (turning totalitarian again), with explicit classes. The people have very limited influence on the means of production.
Kind of strange to say people "in the west" considering China calls itself communist, people in Russia likely do and all over the world.
There is philosophical communism and what communism has looked like in practice. From China to North Korea, to USSR to so on it has looked like this. Authoritarianism where the scape goat is "capitalism" but it functions the same as any other authoritarianism including fascism.
The party calls itself communist (and North Korea calls itself "democratic", by the way), but neither China nor the USSR ever claimed to be communist, afaik. They only tell their people that they're striving to one day become a communist society.
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Maybe what was commonly referred to as communism in the West. Doesn't have much to do with communism itself. That would entail having a stateless, classless society where the people control the means of production. China is none of that. Quite the opposite, actually. It is an authoritarian state (turning totalitarian again), with explicit classes. The people have very limited influence on the means of production.
Kind of strange to say people "in the west" considering China calls itself communist, people in Russia likely do and all over the world.
There is philosophical communism and what communism has looked like in practice. From China to North Korea, to USSR to so on it has looked like this. Authoritarianism where the scape goat is "capitalism" but it functions the same as any other authoritarianism including fascism.
The party calls itself communist (and North Korea calls itself "democratic", by the way), but neither China nor the USSR ever claimed to be communist, afaik. They only tell their people that they're striving to one day become a communist society.
That is part of the schitck, you can never get out of that stage as the "capitalists" are always there fighting you (see deep state, nazis or jews depending on the facsist ideology). The leaders keep requiring extra power to defeat who ever the scape goat is but the more they get the wealthier them and their families get but somehow the scapegoats remain to powerful to stop.
This post I read on Reddit says it better than I could on what the party itself is saying, so I saved it. Now why it needs billionaires and lives a absolute luxury for those in control never really gets explained, but for anyone not drinking the koolaid it is pretty obvious that most/all authoritarianism run countries are the same they just all have their own take on the marketing/branding to make them the heros.
f you mean to say that China is not a communist country because it has not achieved a "Communist" stage of economic development, then you are not only correct, but the Chinese Communist Party itself agrees with you.
In the west, the term "Communist" in the context of countries is used to refer primarily to Marxist-Leninist states. Most famously these would be the Soviet Union and China, which were both headed by Communist Parties. The thing is, even though every one of these countries followed Communist ideology, none of them ever claimed to be Communist. If you read Russian or Chinese texts you will notice that they always mention "Socialism" and claim to be "Socialist countries".
This is because in the Communist idea of historic dialectic set out by Marx and Engels, the human stages of economic development go in the following order: Feudalism > Capitalism > Socialism > Communism . In other words, Communism was the "end goal" that all the Marxists (traditional Communists) set out to achieve.
However, if you look at Russian and Chinese history you will notice that they attempted to go from semi-feudal agrarian societies to jump directly into the "Socialism" stage without going through the capitalism stage. This turned out to be a mistake, since market capitalism was much more capable of providing surplus than socialist state run economies. This is where the stereotypes of constant food and commodity shortages of the Eastern bloc originate from.
It was from this context that China in the 1970s began to switch gears to a more market driven "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" under Deng Xiaoping. Market reforms were introduced, moving China away from the stereotypical Marxist-Leninist "Communist" type of state run economy. This may seem to many like an admission that Communism is flawed, but in fact, it is almost the opposite.
Deng Xiaoping was a staunch communist, and his shift towards market capitalism was in fact an attempt to drive China back into the "correct" communist path. So instead of going Feudalism > Socialism > Communism, and skipping capitalism, he would put the "Capitalism" stage back in, as Marx had originally envisioned. The idea is to let the nation become wealthy with surplus first, before reigning it back in under the state.
To this day, this remains under this ideology of having communism as the end goal, and the Chinese Communist Party retains heavy "socialist" economic policies - All major banks continue to be state run, funded by the central bank, and major companies are all either directly run by or heavily influenced by the Party, even when in the eyes of western economic analysts it would be far more efficient to further implement market reforms. In fact, these days the Communist party is starting to go in the opposite direction, as it is attempting to bring back the influence of the state run economy, which they believe has run too far from the proper "Communist" way.
In other words, China was never a Communist country. But Communism remains the goal of the leaders of China. And in the west, where Communism is not well understood, a country with Communism as the end goal is considered a Communist country. In this regards, China is just as Communist as it was under Chairman Mao, it's just much richer while doing it. No country was ever Communist. But if any country could be called "Communist", it would be China.
TL/DR: "Communists" are those who consider "Communism" to be the end goal. The Chinese Government considers "Communism" to be the end goal. Therefore China is "Communist".
I think we're roughly on the same page. The reason why I objected is because classifying China as "communist" rests on the assumption that they are genuinely striving to reach a communist society one day. I don't think that's the case. As you put it, communism for China is just a brand. They use it to fool their own citizens and people like GH.
In addition, aside from a top-down approach to building a communist society, there are various bottom-up approaches, such as anarcho-communism and such. Whatever China's failing are, they are not inherent to communism itself (that has never been reached) but rather to their top-down approach.
The analysis you shared is also missing an important aspect, imo. The distinction between capitalism and communism is not only about who controls the means of production, but also about the motives in the system. In capitalism goal is making profit while in communism - it's meeting the needs of the society. In capitalism, the latter is a by-product. The inverse is true in communism. Lastly, the question of ownership of the means of production is additionally muddied by the fact that state control over the economy is not the same as social control over the means of production. You can't have the latter if the society does not democratically control the government. The situation in China is somewhat similar to republican Rome, where the state owned large swaths of property but the political elites treated it as their private property.
They use it to fool their own citizens and people like GH.
Fool us into what exactly?
On May 17 2022 21:41 fakovski wrote: very interesting to digest imaginations and speculation out of the heads on the other side of the planet
fwiw the Sinophobia that dominates around here is not universal. Some of us recognize that while China isn't perfect, it's working relentlessly to at least leave a habitable planet for future generations because it recognizes capitalism's endless profit seeking is not in and of itself a path to meeting societies needs. In fact, capitalism often explicitly stands in the way of meeting societies needs as exemplified by the WHO vaccine patent waiver. It nakedly prioritizes profit at the expense of societies needs.
On May 17 2022 21:41 fakovski wrote: very interesting to digest imaginations and speculation out of the heads on the other side of the planet
fwiw the Sinophobia that dominates around here is not universal. Some of us recognize that while China isn't perfect, it's working relentlessly to at least leave a habitable planet for future generations because it recognizes capitalism's endless profit seeking is not in and of itself a path to meeting societies needs. In fact, capitalism often explicitly stands in the way of meeting societies needs as exemplified by the WHO vaccine patent waiver. It nakedly prioritizes profit at the expense of societies needs.
If you were hoping China is trying to leave a habitable planet for future generations, you should be quite disappointed.
On May 17 2022 18:01 fakovski wrote: 2.why 0 COVID policy is ridiculous? because we are not behave the same way with you, so we are ridiculous? CNN reported a million death caused by covid in the US, if china lay down like other countries, at least 5million death would be expected....the goverment care about people's lives, is that wrong? oh, you might find it not "free" , but under some serious circumstances personal freedom need to be constrained for the great objectives, my city got a 2 week lockdown, I don't complain about that, I didn't see anyone around get mad about the policy. remeber days ago some 18year-old kid kill 10+ with a rifle in newyork state? that is really impressive freedom
I'm just curious about this point. I'm in Portugal, where almost 100% of all adults are vaccinated, the vast majority with 3 doses of mRNA vaccines. We're undergoing a COVID wave right now. Meanwhile, there are no mask mandates anymore outside of public transit. Life is mostly normal. We accept the 'cost' of the cases, the same way we accept the cost of bad cases of flu.
Given that the virus is going to stay here on Earth in circulation, and it will continue to evolve, what is the long-term plan in China? Will cities lockdown every single time there are a few cases? Does that mean, in practice, that circulation of people between China and the rest of the world is locked forever? Will Chinese cities be locking down four times every year?
Portugal has a population of 10million,while china-1600million, in most chinese cities ppl got vaccinated for free, I don't know what is the long-term plan in China, I guess the circulation of ppl between china and the rest of the world will be locked for a long time (at least another 6-12months), life is mostly normal in china too, I check the news today.....about 200+ new cases daily, shanghai is the only city locked-down.
I surfed on TL since 2002, when 20years ago ppl are more friendly , unfortunately China is developing too fast that she become a main threat to the U.S (and her allies), I can even feel ppl from those countries have a different view of China comparing with ppl from other countries. It will not be pleasant to argue with them, and it would not be helpful to anyone, China is making firm progress under such questionings and prejudice since her foundation in1949, so I suggest everyone put aside those arguements and try to make the world better for everyone.
On May 18 2022 10:42 fakovski wrote: I surfed on TL since 2002, when 20years ago ppl are more friendly , unfortunately China is developing too fast that she become a main threat to the U.S (and her allies), I can even feel ppl from those countries have a different view of China comparing with ppl from other countries. It will not be pleasant to argue with them, and it would not be helpful to anyone, China is making firm progress under such questionings and prejudice since her foundation in1949, so I suggest everyone put aside those arguements and try to make the world better for everyone.
With energy being so central to human development in the modern world China's leaping ahead of the globe (including the much more capitalized US and her allies) in the vital technology/production of cleaner/renewable energy has certainly enflamed longstanding orientalism which cascades into the Sinophobia and prejudice you accurately describe China progressing through (and you'll unfortunately probably see a lot more of here).
While I wouldn't expect you to endure arguing with people here I do hope you continue to offer your perspectives on things as I find them refreshing
I think the Chinese would be talking about their supposed leaps in green technology more than anyone and attempting to license that tech across the globe instead there is a constant stream of embarrassing news about the pollution and other damage they cause to the environment. The wreckage they're causing to the Mekong basin in the Indo-chinese peninsula is exceptionally callous to their neighbor's environment and a significant food source for their own people.
We've seen fantastical production numbers come from China but they've never been verified by any independent source. We've seen the bad numbers and failures out of the west because they're unable to stop the truth from getting out.
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Maybe what was commonly referred to as communism in the West. Doesn't have much to do with communism itself. That would entail having a stateless, classless society where the people control the means of production. China is none of that. Quite the opposite, actually. It is an authoritarian state (turning totalitarian again), with explicit classes. The people have very limited influence on the means of production.
Kind of strange to say people "in the west" considering China calls itself communist, people in Russia likely do and all over the world.
There is philosophical communism and what communism has looked like in practice. From China to North Korea, to USSR to so on it has looked like this. Authoritarianism where the scape goat is "capitalism" but it functions the same as any other authoritarianism including fascism.
The party calls itself communist (and North Korea calls itself "democratic", by the way), but neither China nor the USSR ever claimed to be communist, afaik. They only tell their people that they're striving to one day become a communist society.
A country called the Union of Soviet Socalist Republics that had a hammer and sickle on their flag was NOT claiming it was communist? really?
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Their political system is certainly authoritarian. Communism does not have a shit ton of billionaires.
Billionaires who only exist by grace of the party. If they do something which the party deems unacceptable they get cut down to size (like for example Jack Ma from Alibaba who started critizing the government). And this is what Deng's reforms were about. The economy was partly liberalised and private citizens are allowed to enjoy these economic freedoms but the political system is still in firm hands of the party.
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Maybe what was commonly referred to as communism in the West. Doesn't have much to do with communism itself. That would entail having a stateless, classless society where the people control the means of production. China is none of that. Quite the opposite, actually. It is an authoritarian state (turning totalitarian again), with explicit classes. The people have very limited influence on the means of production.
Kind of strange to say people "in the west" considering China calls itself communist, people in Russia likely do and all over the world.
There is philosophical communism and what communism has looked like in practice. From China to North Korea, to USSR to so on it has looked like this. Authoritarianism where the scape goat is "capitalism" but it functions the same as any other authoritarianism including fascism.
The party calls itself communist (and North Korea calls itself "democratic", by the way), but neither China nor the USSR ever claimed to be communist, afaik. They only tell their people that they're striving to one day become a communist society.
That is part of the schitck, you can never get out of that stage as the "capitalists" are always there fighting you (see deep state, nazis or jews depending on the facsist ideology). The leaders keep requiring extra power to defeat who ever the scape goat is but the more they get the wealthier them and their families get but somehow the scapegoats remain to powerful to stop.
This post I read on Reddit says it better than I could on what the party itself is saying, so I saved it. Now why it needs billionaires and lives a absolute luxury for those in control never really gets explained, but for anyone not drinking the koolaid it is pretty obvious that most/all authoritarianism run countries are the same they just all have their own take on the marketing/branding to make them the heros.
f you mean to say that China is not a communist country because it has not achieved a "Communist" stage of economic development, then you are not only correct, but the Chinese Communist Party itself agrees with you.
In the west, the term "Communist" in the context of countries is used to refer primarily to Marxist-Leninist states. Most famously these would be the Soviet Union and China, which were both headed by Communist Parties. The thing is, even though every one of these countries followed Communist ideology, none of them ever claimed to be Communist. If you read Russian or Chinese texts you will notice that they always mention "Socialism" and claim to be "Socialist countries".
This is because in the Communist idea of historic dialectic set out by Marx and Engels, the human stages of economic development go in the following order: Feudalism > Capitalism > Socialism > Communism . In other words, Communism was the "end goal" that all the Marxists (traditional Communists) set out to achieve.
However, if you look at Russian and Chinese history you will notice that they attempted to go from semi-feudal agrarian societies to jump directly into the "Socialism" stage without going through the capitalism stage. This turned out to be a mistake, since market capitalism was much more capable of providing surplus than socialist state run economies. This is where the stereotypes of constant food and commodity shortages of the Eastern bloc originate from.
It was from this context that China in the 1970s began to switch gears to a more market driven "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" under Deng Xiaoping. Market reforms were introduced, moving China away from the stereotypical Marxist-Leninist "Communist" type of state run economy. This may seem to many like an admission that Communism is flawed, but in fact, it is almost the opposite.
Deng Xiaoping was a staunch communist, and his shift towards market capitalism was in fact an attempt to drive China back into the "correct" communist path. So instead of going Feudalism > Socialism > Communism, and skipping capitalism, he would put the "Capitalism" stage back in, as Marx had originally envisioned. The idea is to let the nation become wealthy with surplus first, before reigning it back in under the state.
To this day, this remains under this ideology of having communism as the end goal, and the Chinese Communist Party retains heavy "socialist" economic policies - All major banks continue to be state run, funded by the central bank, and major companies are all either directly run by or heavily influenced by the Party, even when in the eyes of western economic analysts it would be far more efficient to further implement market reforms. In fact, these days the Communist party is starting to go in the opposite direction, as it is attempting to bring back the influence of the state run economy, which they believe has run too far from the proper "Communist" way.
In other words, China was never a Communist country. But Communism remains the goal of the leaders of China. And in the west, where Communism is not well understood, a country with Communism as the end goal is considered a Communist country. In this regards, China is just as Communist as it was under Chairman Mao, it's just much richer while doing it. No country was ever Communist. But if any country could be called "Communist", it would be China.
TL/DR: "Communists" are those who consider "Communism" to be the end goal. The Chinese Government considers "Communism" to be the end goal. Therefore China is "Communist".
I think we're roughly on the same page. The reason why I objected is because classifying China as "communist" rests on the assumption that they are genuinely striving to reach a communist society one day. I don't think that's the case. As you put it, communism for China is just a brand. They use it to fool their own citizens and people like GH.
In addition, aside from a top-down approach to building a communist society, there are various bottom-up approaches, such as anarcho-communism and such. Whatever China's failing are, they are not inherent to communism itself (that has never been reached) but rather to their top-down approach.
The analysis you shared is also missing an important aspect, imo. The distinction between capitalism and communism is not only about who controls the means of production, but also about the motives in the system. In capitalism, but goal is making profit. In communism, it's meeting the needs of the society. In capitalism, the latter is a by-product. The inverse is true in communism. Lastly, the question of ownership of the means of production is additionally muddied by the fact that state control over the economy is not the same as social control over the means of production. You can't have the latter if the society does not democratically control the government. The situation in China is somewhat similar to republican Rome, where the state owned large swaths of property but the political elites treated it as their private property.
Mao and his revolutionary buddies certainly were striving for a communist society. I don't think this was just a brand back then and I don't think it is now. That their reforms did not end up in the ideal communist society is true but also not a very interesting observation. Reality doesn't change just because you have thought out a nice theory. The practical implementation will always differ from the theoretical framework. More interesting is looking at why these communist revolutions always end up in an authoritarian dictatorship.
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Maybe what was commonly referred to as communism in the West. Doesn't have much to do with communism itself. That would entail having a stateless, classless society where the people control the means of production. China is none of that. Quite the opposite, actually. It is an authoritarian state (turning totalitarian again), with explicit classes. The people have very limited influence on the means of production.
Kind of strange to say people "in the west" considering China calls itself communist, people in Russia likely do and all over the world.
There is philosophical communism and what communism has looked like in practice. From China to North Korea, to USSR to so on it has looked like this. Authoritarianism where the scape goat is "capitalism" but it functions the same as any other authoritarianism including fascism.
The party calls itself communist (and North Korea calls itself "democratic", by the way), but neither China nor the USSR ever claimed to be communist, afaik. They only tell their people that they're striving to one day become a communist society.
A country called the Union of Soviet Socalist Republics that had a hammer and sickle on their flag was NOT claiming it was communist? really?
That's true. Even the last constitution of USSR (in 1977) in the first chapter stated that "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is the socialist state of the people, expressing the will and interests of peasants, workers and intelligentsia, working people from all nations and peoples of the state".
Communism there represented as an ideal to be strived for, as in preamble "The highest goal of the Soviet state is building declassified communist society with a developed communist self-governance".
There is a difference between Socialism and Communism (well, theoretical one at least), because communist ideal is kinda unreachable. It's an idealistic utopia, requiring a perfect human being who will work overtime just for the enjoyment of it, and take the minimal resources necessary for him to exist with a bit of comfort. Since human nature isn't exactly that, it still remains an utopia. USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, DPRK, Maoist China - they all are/were socialist, not communist.
But as was correctly stated above, they all turned into that state from a not-very-developed agrarian society, and often after a great turmoil (World War 1 and Civil War in Russia, World War 2 and Civil War in China, World War 2 in DPRK, overall poverty and revolutions/coups in Cuba/Venezuela) which leads to authoritarian tendencies, and that differs this socialism from the continuous peaceful process happening in, lets say, Scandinavia, whose internal policies are often described as socialistic (despite them still being capitalist countries, of course), since the end goal of Socialism is creating a maximum possible equality in the society (without completely removing the need for state and personal property, as Communism proposes). The difference is, either people will be equally poor or equally rich.
On May 18 2022 15:30 Ardias wrote: There is a difference between Socialism and Communism (well, theoretical one at least), because communist ideal is kinda unreachable. It's an idealistic utopia, requiring a perfect human being who will work overtime just for the enjoyment of it, and take the minimal resources necessary for him to exist with a bit of comfort. Since human nature isn't exactly that, it still remains an utopia. USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, DPRK, Maoist China - they all are/were socialist, not communist.
ah , interesting.
In North America, the USSR was considered a communist country. They had no "professional hockey players" they were all amateurs who were in the army and paid by the government. There were no profits made by any hockey teams. No profits + No Private Run Hockey Teams = Communism www.youtube.com
Ron Ellis: "it was like war ... it was Canada against Russia ... democracy against Communism" "Excelling in athletics was proof the communist system is the better system"... this is the stuff fed to Canadians during the USSR's existence. The implication being.... USSR IS a communist country.
The fans chanted at Phil Esposito "communism is best" when the USSR defeated Canada in Game 4 of an 8 game series. Canadians viewed the USSR as a communist state. Communism had just won. www.youtube.com
BTW, I hope Ovechkin breaks Gretzky's goal record. Gretzky is a whiner and Ovechkin is a more pure goal scorer any way.
Truth be told, both capitalism and communism are flawed at the very core of the idea as the perfect form of either can't be achieved (communism requires infinite resources while capitalism requires the possibility of infinite growth).
It is kind of amusing that pretty much all countries that were striving towards communism have ended up as isolationist dictatorships (China, Russia, NKR, Cuba). It seems that the happiest people are in countries where you have a healthy mixture of systems - consistently winning in happiness rankings seems to be Denmark, which is a socialist country with free market etc.
Sosialism in accordance with Marx and Engels' philosophy have always been the transitionary stage from capitalism to communism. In socialism, one require a strong state to regain ownership of the means of production from the capitalists / private enterprise and chaperone it until the situation is ready for it to be transferred to the people, when the people are ready to cohabitat in communes where they all share equally in the ownership of and surplus of their commonly owned means of production (which will then be shared with other communes through markets). Once the transition is done, the strong state is dissolved, leaving the people through their communes in charge. This marks the end of socialism, and start of communism.
Nothings ever gotten past the "strong state"-part without breaking though, no matter if countries have labelled themselves as, or been labelled as, communist, and as thus, there has been no communist countries in accordance to the philosophy dictating the term.
As with all other utopian ideologies, itd at best work within a segregated, self-sufficient microsociety.
On May 18 2022 08:51 GreenHorizons wrote: Fool us into what exactly?
Into shilling for China. Takes some serious brainwashing to convince a far left person to support the closest thing we've had to a fascist state in modern days (until Russia's recent descent into fascism).
fwiw the Sinophobia that dominates around here is not universal. Some of us recognize that while China isn't perfect, it's working relentlessly to at least leave a habitable planet for future generations because it recognizes capitalism's endless profit seeking is not in and of itself a path to meeting societies needs. In fact, capitalism often explicitly stands in the way of meeting societies needs as exemplified by the WHO vaccine patent waiver. It nakedly prioritizes profit at the expense of societies needs.
Sorry to break it to you, but China has had a capitalist economy for a few decades now, lol.
China has lifted over 100 million people out of poverty. The majority of the population seems to be happy with how things are beeing ran. Who are we to critizise them?
This thread is nothing but China bashing,the openings post clearly sets the tone. Its like one of those threads you see on reddit. A very one sided and negative discussion about another country.
China has its flaws like any country but it has also done many great things.
I am not "shilling" for China. (another constructed narrative to counter anyone who doesnt go along with the bashing). Its the mindless bashing ,straight up propaganda,that bothers me in the discussions that you see on the internet these days. Its very one sided. Everyone who posts negative about China gets upvotes (not on this forum luckily) and everyone who doesnt fully go along with it gets downvoted and called beeing a "shill". There is no room for a nuanced position,you have to either bash or you are a shill.
On May 19 2022 02:58 pmh wrote: China has lifted over 100 million people out of poverty. The majority of the population seems to be happy with how things are beeing ran. Who are we to critizise them?
This thread is nothing but China bashing,the openings post clearly sets the tone. Its like one of those threads you see on reddit. A very one sided and negative discussion about another country.
China has its flaws like any country but it has also done many great things.
I am not "shilling" for China. (another constructed narrative to counter anyone who doesnt go along with the bashing). Its the mindless bashing ,straight up propaganda,that bothers me in the discussions that you see on the internet these days. Its very one sided. Everyone who posts negative about China gets upvotes (not on this forum luckily) and everyone who doesnt fully go along with it gets downvoted and called beeing a "shill". There is no room for a nuanced position,you have to either bash or you are a shill.
I think China's economic renaissance is inspiring. bravo. Germany's coal imports are set to rise 8% this year. India and China coal based electricity production are going up 9 to 12 percent. USA will also start burning coal like crazy again. So I don't see why everyone is ragging on China. I'd like to see Canada start more coal based electricity production as well. The province of Ontario had the cheapest electricity prices in NA when the government run energy company "Ontario Hydro" burned lots of coal. stupidly cheap electricity helped make Ontario an economic juggernaut in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s.
Russia's coal consumption and production rose from 2014 to 2016. What did the world do? Nuttin. In fact, I think Germany imported even more Russian coal during 2016. If the world won't directly intervene in Russia taking over the Ukraine what is the world really going to do about Russia consuming more coal? The same thing the world has already been doing: nothing.
Again, I don't see why everyone is ragging on China about its coal use. All we hear from the rest of the world is a lot of yapping about cutting back on coal. They are talking the talk.. they sure ain't walking the walk.
On May 18 2022 20:08 plated.rawr wrote: As with all other utopian ideologies, itd at best work within a segregated, self-sufficient microsociety.
the only way to be a utopia level happy adult is for that adult to possess high self esteem. high self esteem is built on choices and hard work executed by the individual and can't be given to them by any government or any other human for that matter.
the turbulence of our times demands strong selves with a clear sense of identity, competence, and worth. with the breakdown of cultural consensus , an absense of worthy role models, little in the public arena to inspire our allegiance ,,,, and disorientingly rapid change a permanent feature of our lives.. with all that ... it is a dangerous moment in history not to know who we are... or not to trust ourselves. The stability we can not find in the world we must create in our own persons.
If you have low self esteem your life is lousy no matter how good the social safety net is.
On May 19 2022 02:58 pmh wrote: China has lifted over 100 million people out of poverty. The majority of the population seems to be happy with how things are beeing ran. Who are we to critizise them?
This thread is nothing but China bashing,the openings post clearly sets the tone. Its like one of those threads you see on reddit. A very one sided and negative discussion about another country.
China has its flaws like any country but it has also done many great things.
I am not "shilling" for China. (another constructed narrative to counter anyone who doesnt go along with the bashing). Its the mindless bashing ,straight up propaganda,that bothers me in the discussions that you see on the internet these days. Its very one sided. Everyone who posts negative about China gets upvotes (not on this forum luckily) and everyone who doesnt fully go along with it gets downvoted and called beeing a "shill". There is no room for a nuanced position,you have to either bash or you are a shill.
That about sums it up. At least they have a place that kind of trash "belongs" now
Both capitalism and socialism has its fatal flaws, and democracy is not a magic drug. The westners are bashing China for her dictatorship, however, democratic countries without strong leadership are true disasters. India is a good example. Urkrainian, when they naively choose a comedian，they put their fate in others' hands.
On May 14 2022 18:38 Manit0u wrote: 4. A lot of businesses are moving out of China and setting up shop elsewhere (Vietnam mostly), which will probably have huge impact on Chinese economy.
It'll be interesting to see what happens. Also, if China really shuts down information flow out of the country it might become impossible to measure the Chinese economy.
On May 19 2022 13:30 Djabanete wrote: Also, the idea that you cannot have healthy self-esteem while benefiting from social programs is absurd.
You misread my comment. The government can not give any individual high/healthy self esteem. High self esteem is only attainable via an individual's carefully strategized choices and carefully executed actions. Therefore, an "ideal" political system can not create even one single happy healthy solid self esteem individual. Not one. Ultimately, it is up to an individual person to create their own happiness. Such an endeavour is a lot of hard work.
On May 19 2022 11:41 fakovski wrote: Both capitalism and socialism has its fatal flaws, and democracy is not a magic drug.
ya, good points. IMO, there is no perfect system. Work with what ya got... + Show Spoiler +
and if the place you are located is really bad and you can pull it off then move to a different/better country. Toronto, Ontario, Canada is home to 100s of thousands who left a bad situation in a different country. Doing so is pretty tough. Often one must learn a new language and adapt to a completely different culture. That said , hundreds of thousands, even millions manage to pull it off. Neighbouring New York state has tonnes of people from the Toronto area who left and went to New York for even better opportunities than Canada offers.
"The money is out there gents... you pick up its yours ... you don't ... i got no sympathy for ya", Blake in GlenGary GlenRoss 1992.
On May 14 2022 18:38 Manit0u wrote: 1. No more freedom of religion in Hong Kong. They've also arrested a 90 year old Catholic cardinal.
3. Most Chinese people can no longer leave the country. Their passports are being shredded, as well as foreign green cards. 4. A lot of businesses are moving out of China and setting up shop elsewhere (Vietnam mostly), which will probably have huge impact on Chinese economy. I wonder what are other people's thoughts on the current situation in China and where will it lead potentially.
I think it will lead to US politicians having more excuses/reasons/rationale for increasing military spending.
US politicians can reasonably claim China is becoming like the USSR of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. US politicians can then use this as a reason to spend more money on military to protect against the "Chinese Communist threat".
China has many problems but also many successes and it is foolish to dismiss them. For example China accounted for the vast majority of poverty reduction in the Millenium Goals, due to its rapid development.
The issue people in the West have with China is more that they reject its system of government. They see it as inherently evil or inferior, because it emphasizes the continued leadership of the Party over any individual rights. Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
On May 19 2022 11:41 fakovski wrote: Urkrainian, when they naively choose a comedian，they put their fate in others' hands.
Russia's tragic blundering in Ukraine is not the example I would select if I wanted to portray dictatorships as more powerful than democracies.
Exactly. I think Zelensky is doing way better than anyone had imagined him (or anyone else) doing.
Electing anyone else (except maybe a hardcore Putin stooge) wouldn't have stopped this from happening. And Zelensky is basically crushing it. Keeping up fighting moral, getting international support and so forth. Leading to Ukraine starting to win the war at this point.
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
This has to be the worst argument i have read in a long time.
Just because people are suffering does not mean that they don't birth children. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The countries fertility rates very strongly negatively correspond with wealth in a country. The countries where people tend to have the most children are also the countries where life in general is pretty shitty.
Regarding the second part, that is a very classic whataboutism. I am not from the US, and i was very opposed to the US wars in the last decades. And yet this still is not an argument in any way related to how shitty china treats its minorities.
Edit: Also, the fact that you don't have access to huge parts of the internet should really make you think.
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
Indians were annihilated, millions african slaves were captured to america, US troops kill civilians everywhere in the name of anti-terrorist, is that bloody killing fanaticism the nature of Anglo-Saxons？ the problem of their humanity as a whole?
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
This has to be the worst argument i have read in a long time.
Just because people are suffering does not mean that they don't birth children. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The countries fertility rates very strongly negatively correspond with wealth in a country. The countries where people tend to have the most children are also the countries where life in general is pretty shitty.
Regarding the second part, that is a very classic whataboutism. I am not from the US, and i was very opposed to the US wars in the last decades. And yet this still is not an argument in any way related to how shitty china treats its minorities.
Edit: Also, the fact that you don't have access to huge parts of the internet should really make you think.
I was limited by my English skills, man , I do have many minority-race friends in China, I don't know "how shitty" could it be. BTW I was living in Germany between 2002-2008, when I had"access to huge parts of the internet", the things I found on the web do make me think, how could they be so blind and deaf.
On May 19 2022 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: If you have low self esteem your life is lousy no matter how good the social safety net is.
Perhaps, but neither is self-esteem a substitute for the material necessities that allow for a dignified existence.
Also, the idea that you cannot have healthy self-esteem while benefiting from social programs is absurd.
Here ends my derailment of this thread about China.
On May 19 2022 11:41 fakovski wrote: Urkrainian, when they naively choose a comedian，they put their fate in others' hands.
Russia's tragic blundering in Ukraine is not the example I would select if I wanted to portray dictatorships as more powerful than democracies.
I meant, if Urkrainians selected a wise leader, they might have avoided the fate of a pawn,
... by becoming the property of Russia?
This train of thought originated with you saying that dictatorships are looking stronger than democracies. Your example of democratic weakness is Ukraine *not* surrendering to a dictator when given the chance. But to me, it’s an example of a dictator’s weakness that he tried to f*** with a former comedian and now is totally alone in the world.
I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
On May 19 2022 06:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: If you have low self esteem your life is lousy no matter how good the social safety net is.
Perhaps, but neither is self-esteem a substitute for the material necessities that allow for a dignified existence.
Also, the idea that you cannot have healthy self-esteem while benefiting from social programs is absurd.
Here ends my derailment of this thread about China.
On May 19 2022 11:41 fakovski wrote: Urkrainian, when they naively choose a comedian，they put their fate in others' hands.
Russia's tragic blundering in Ukraine is not the example I would select if I wanted to portray dictatorships as more powerful than democracies.
I meant, if Urkrainians selected a wise leader, they might have avoided the fate of a pawn,
... by becoming the property of Russia?
This train of thought originated with you saying that dictatorships are looking stronger than democracies. Your example of democratic weakness is Ukraine *not* surrendering to a dictator when given the chance. But to me, it’s an example of a dictator’s weakness that he tried to f*** with a former comedian and now is totally alone in the world.
no I suggested nothing about surrending, I mean if they have a wise leader who can choose to stop seeking for NATO membership, the war might be avoided. Finnland were not seeking for NATO membership , were they feel unsafe before the war?Russia is now a weak country, do you think they are eager to start a war?maybe they just dont want to someday wake up in the morning and find missile-plants 700kms(kiev) south of Moscow? edit: If someday China made a millitary organization and called mexico to join in, what will the americans do?
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
It is, unfortunately, a very pervasive culture in China to mind your own business. It's very commonly thought that if you get nosy you get in trouble that isn't yours to begin with.
On May 19 2022 15:20 gobbledydook wrote: Whereas many Chinese do believe that those human rights allegations are excuses to attack China and the Chinese people, and they don't see why they have to follow the rules set by foreigners and that what China does is none of their business.
Saying that my country’s human rights abuses are nobody else’s business rings as true as saying that the stranger I’ve tied up in my garage is nobody else’s business because it’s my garage. I don’t think anybody’s moral compass accepts that as reasonable.
This is not to say that China is the only country with human rights abuses, but rather that such abuses are by their nature the problem of humanity as a whole.
Indians were annihilated, millions african slaves were captured to america, US troops kill civilians everywhere in the name of anti-terrorist, is that bloody killing fanaticism the nature of Anglo-Saxons？ the problem of their humanity as a whole?
I stand by what I said. Human rights abuses are fundamentally the concern of all people. It is morally repugnant to pretend they don’t exist when they do exist or to justify them by invoking other human rights abuses done by other people.
“What we do to our ethnic minorities is our own business, and even if it is wrong, it’s not as bad as the genocide of the Native Americans and the enslavement of Africans.” <— Red flag
On May 19 2022 16:19 pebble444 wrote: Been following this channel for years now, really shows you what’s going on;
Haven’ t seen anyone mention how the Uighur people have been and are being treated by the goverment authorities in China https://youtube.com/watch?v=n4rJUtdUqvk
I have no access to youtube without buying or using free VPN, I just don't bother to do that (TL is not blocked byw). I GUESS you are suggesting that Uighurs are suffering in China?Uighur popultion in China increase from 2.2million to 12million in the last 60years, they must be foolish to birth so many where life is hard for them？By the way, americans kill muslim everywhere, but they do care about muslim in China, isn't that ironic.
This has to be the worst argument i have read in a long time.
Just because people are suffering does not mean that they don't birth children. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The countries fertility rates very strongly negatively correspond with wealth in a country. The countries where people tend to have the most children are also the countries where life in general is pretty shitty.
Regarding the second part, that is a very classic whataboutism. I am not from the US, and i was very opposed to the US wars in the last decades. And yet this still is not an argument in any way related to how shitty china treats its minorities.
Edit: Also, the fact that you don't have access to huge parts of the internet should really make you think.
I was limited by my English skills, man , I do have many minority-race friends in China, I don't know "how shitty" could it be. BTW I was living in Germany between 2002-2008, when I had"access to huge parts of the internet", the things I found on the web do make me think, how could they be so blind and deaf.
I'm curious if you're familiar with "Indian schools" in North America and how you would compare them to what you know about the Uighur facilities?
It seems to me that some people in the West generally believe that regarding the Uighur facilities, like American-Indian boarding schools in North America, what was/is portrayed by the government, media, etc as reasonable assimilation is, for all intents and purposes, genocidal.
I don't have enough reliable information to confidently claim I know where Uighur facilities fall on the "humane assimilation to genocidal" scale (In NA, policies toward Indigenous peoples particularly in the US were and arguably still are genocidal) but I'd appreciate your perspective in that context.
Perhaps something about what your government and mainstream media tell you about Uighur's circumstances in/after those facilities and how that compares to what it is you personally believe it is like for them. I recognize you don't think they are as bad as they are portrayed in Western media and I'm inclined to agree with that. I do wonder though if they are and/or you believe they are exactly as the Chinese government portrays them internationally.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
Chinese people are about as smart or stupid as everyone else.
You constantly refer to the past to make your arguments. That does not really work though. Just because China has supposedly been peaceful for 5000 years (which is a completely baseless statement btw.) this does not mean they keep this up. Just because uyghurs reproduced a lot in the last 50 years this does not mean they are not suffering right now.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
Chinese people are about as smart or stupid as everyone else.
You constantly refer to the past to make your arguments. That does not really work though. Just because China has supposedly been peaceful for 5000 years (which is a completely baseless statement btw.) this does not mean they keep this up. Just because uyghurs reproduced a lot in the last 50 years this does not mean they are not suffering right now.
The reason I use uyghurs population is for a flagrant contrast to the population of indians in North America, I said I am over 2000KMs away from xingjiang, that is like talking about what happend in italy while sitting in moscow.......sorry I have no time now, I am off-work for a date, it is 6:20p.m here.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021)
I think the question here is if the end justify the means: When you have a look at the chinese history of the last century you'll find atrocities which the CCP is responsible for or memebers of the CCP. If those atrocities were justified and necessary(!) evils to get China to where it is today nobody can anwser. We will never know if they were necessary because we cannot turn back time and do it differently. Also there's no correct anwser when it comes to questions like ,,is it justifiable''; morals and ethics are relative not absolute terms, depending on the interpretation of each individual.
For example, you have to anwser the following question yourself: Do you believe it was necessary and do you think it was justified that many million chinese were directly or indirectly murdered to get china where it is today by the CCP or not?
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: [...] one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
I don't think anyone questions that there are smart chinese people. Why would you even differentiate by nationality when it comes to intelligence or smartness or w/e?
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
Try to imaging following scene: You listen to one of the speeches by any of the NSDAP higher-ups sometime between 1933 and 1939. They more or less directly mention they don't really like jews and they plan on taking care of them. Whatever they mean by that. Later you're talking to some german guy on the internet. You tell him you're kinda worried for the jews in the world bc of things those german political figures with power are stating. Also Germany's economy is growing rapidly and they invest more and more money in their military. That german guy is kind of confused and anwsers: Why would you be worried about Germany? It's a responsible power with a culture that dates back thousand years or more.
I don't think I have to put that in context for you except for maybe the ,,don't really like jew part''. It's no secret that the CCP condemns ,,western'' values like freedom of speech/press or universal values of human rights; also democracy itself. Xi jinping actually stated these things are among the 7 biggest dangers to china itself. (I'm refering to the so called document 9 that was leaked sometime in 2012 i believe.) Also he swore to fight for communism after he was elected as CCP leader.
So, I hope you understand why i don't think your argument is reassuring when it comes to whether or not China is a global threat or not.
Finally i want to mention that when i'm talking about China i'm talking about its government not it's people.
On May 19 2022 17:57 fakovski wrote: I made some friends from Germany, US, Poland,,,,,they are quite nice people too, but when facing such unfriendly speeches, I need to defend my country, I know some facts they said could be true because I am not an expert on Chinese Policies, but one have to admit for most things the CCP had done well. She made a really poor country (GDP per capita is $33 in 1949) to the second superpower in the world (GDP per capita $12500 in 2021), and one have to admit that the Chinese are really diligent and smart people, they can not have nuclearweapons/intercontinental missiles/carriers/5generationfighters/megacomputers/spacestation/airliner/moon-landing....almost everything by "stealling tecnologies" under technological blockade in some critical areas.
If I were an european or american, I could also be worried about an unknown superpower challenging the "world order", I totally understand ,but you know, Chinese are not fond of violence, a responsible power with 5000years culture in the East is not a real threat to the planet.
People don't admit that the Chinese are smart and diligent people. First smartness is proven not to exist and is a function of educating the right minds, something china lags behind almost the entire world in it's workforce, and secondly we know about the culture of cheating and sloth in responsibility in China. It's a culture everywhere and having empty cities filed with concrete coffin apartments doesn't inspire much for people.
You don't need to reinvent the wheel to have a wheel. All those things aren't new inventive or bespoke achievements. Most are tech transfers from Russia on the military side and are reverse engineered from all the things made in china over the years on the civilian side. Half of those things china has to claim that it's decades at best behind the west despite having examples of it everywhere to follow.
I will admit that it's going to be nice to be in a new cold war with a nation that isn't going to war with us and isn't interested in it. China is admirable that they'd prefer the long game over everything.
On an aside though what are they saying about the lockdowns in the major cities and the covid spreading in nk? I don't really trust much of what comes out of China to us but they have to tell their own people the truth about what's going on right?
Try to imaging following scene: You listen to one of the speeches by any of the NSDAP higher-ups sometime between 1933 and 1939. They more or less directly mention they don't really like jews and they plan on taking care of them. Whatever they mean by that. Later you're talking to some german guy on the internet. You tell him you're kinda worried for the jews in the world bc of things those german political figures with power are stating. Also Germany's economy is growing rapidly and they invest more and more money in their military. That german guy is kind of confused and anwsers: Why would you be worried about Germany? It's a responsible power with a culture that dates back thousand years or more.
I don't think I have to put that in context for you except for maybe the ,,don't really like jew part''. It's no secret that the CCP condemns ,,western'' values like freedom of speech/press or universal values of human rights; also democracy itself. Xi jinping actually stated these things are among the 7 biggest dangers to china itself. (I'm refering to the so called document 9 that was leaked sometime in 2012 i believe.) Also he swore to fight for communism after he was elected as CCP leader.
Now I understand your logic, your logic is perfect and invincible IF XI is a potential Hitler!
When I was abroad I was given leaflets of so-called "secret documents of CCP", 20 years later I still can remember a wide-spread article called"the 9 sins of CCP", but do you know that it was on some Taiwan-sponsored papers. Xi was born in a communist family, so its natural for him to fight for communism, so what's the wrong with his oath? He is fighting for communism doesn't mean he will bring people to a new revolution.
China has 80million CCP members, I am NOT one of them, most ppl are not actually interested in politics today and those who want to join the party are merely seeking for some convenience , party members get a slight bigger chance to promote in govermental jobs(for high rank jobs, membership is more useful but not a must).
And for the "It's no secret that the CCP condemns ,,western'' values like freedom of speech/press or universal values of human rights" thing, I don't know how do you come this far, in your description CCP sounds quite evil. I don't deny that in the 1960-70s the "culture revolution" caused great starvation and millions death. It was a total tragic and the biggest mistake of MAO, but the CCP learned from her faults and start an openling policy shortly after. China today is more like a capitalism society, IF the CCP is still what she is in the 1950s, your worring sounds more reasonable .
Things have changed, so should be the minds of people.
btw I seem to be the only chinese in this topic, I don't have so much energy and interest to debate with everyone, especially when these debates are endless and usually makeno changes in real world.
On May 19 2022 18:46 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm curious if you're familiar with "Indian schools" in North America and how you would compare them to what you know about the Uighur facilities?
The constant non-stop criticism of China is strategic.
A good offense is a good defense. Keep yapping about how bad China is and keep pointing fingers at China then current and past bad acts done by the countries of the free world never come up.
This same strat gets used at workplaces by mediocre and incompetent performers. They just point fingers all day long shifting focus away from their own mediocrity.
I think China's environnementals costs are far higher than they're willing to say. Their economic growth never takes it into account, and climate change is sure to apply more pressure on that weakness. They also have to transform their economy to a tertiary as their wages is going up. Most factories are going south, where workers wages are lower. Also it'd be nice if China could stop targeting a new minority every 15years to supply their organ transplant industry..
On May 19 2022 18:46 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm curious if you're familiar with "Indian schools" in North America and how you would compare them to what you know about the Uighur facilities?
The constant non-stop criticism of China is strategic.
A good offense is a good defense. Keep yapping about how bad China is and keep pointing fingers at China then current and past bad acts done by the countries of the free world never come up.
Are you suggesting that in a Chinese politics thread we do not talk abiut China? In the other pol threads we tend to talk about the goings on in those countries or regions. Strange it is a problem here.
Isn't it so fucking funny to have a conservative who hates "CRT" talk about burying the "past bad acts done by the countries of the free world" jesus reality is stranger than fiction
On May 20 2022 02:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I am providing a motive for the China criticism.
No, you're deflecting the current criticism on China with "but the other country also did bad shit". You also linked the countries who are criticizing China with "bad performers at work". And then you added a sowell quote clearly mocking modern conservatives.
On May 20 2022 02:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I am providing a motive for the China criticism.
No, you're deflecting the current criticism on China with "but the other country also did bad shit". You also linked the countries who are criticizing China with "bad performers at work". And then you added a sowell quote clearly mocking modern conservatives.
Mocking modern conservatives? huh? i am not mocking modern conservatives. I will make it more clear: Sowell's term "constant criticisms' are what I call "finger pointing". Maybe there is a language barrier or I am incorrectly using local idioms and this is causing confusion.
Constant finger-pointing//criticism keeps the focus off one's own mediocrity. That's it. As I said, "A Good Offense Is A Good Defense".
I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China.
On May 20 2022 03:04 Manit0u wrote: I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China.
People are not missing the point, they are wilfully trying to deflect criticism by bringing up unrelated scenarios.
Tursun is a Uyghur, a member of China’s predominantly Muslim Chinese minority, born in the territory that the Chinese call Xinjiang and that many Uyghurs know as East Turkestan. Tursun had six children—too many in a country where there are strict rules limiting births. Also, she wanted to raise them as Muslims; that, too, was a problem in China. When she became pregnant again, she feared being harassed by police, as women with more than two children often are. She and her husband decided to move to Turkey. They got passports for themselves and for their youngest child, but were told the other passports would take longer. Because of her pregnancy, the three of them came to Istanbul anyway; after she and her daughter were settled, her husband returned for the rest of the family. Then he disappeared.
That was five years ago. Tursun has not spoken with her husband since. In July 2017, she spoke with her sister, who promised to take care of her remaining children. Then they lost contact. A year after that, Tursun came across a video being passed around on WhatsApp. Shot at what appeared to be a Chinese orphanage, it showed Uyghur children, heads shaved and all dressed alike, learning to speak Chinese. One of the children was her daughter Ayshe.
Tursun showed me the video of her daughter. She also showed me a picture of her husband standing in an Istanbul mosque. She cannot speak to either one of them, or to any of the rest of her children in China. She has no way to know what they are thinking. They might not know she has searched for them. They might believe she has abandoned them on purpose. They might have forgotten she exists.
[snip]
The translator for my conversation with Tursun was Nursiman Abdureshid. She is also a Uyghur, also from Xinjiang, also married, also with a daughter, also now living in Istanbul. Abdureshid came to Turkey as a student, convinced that she had the backing of the Chinese state. A graduate of Shanghai University of Finance and Economics, she had studied business administration, learned excellent Turkish and English, made ethnic-Chinese friends. She had never thought of herself as a rebel or a dissident. Why would she have? She was a Chinese success story.
Abdureshid’s break with her old life came in June 2017, when, after an ordinary conversation with her family back in China, they stopped answering her calls. She texted and got no response. Weeks passed. After many months, she contacted the consulate in Istanbul—she asked a Turkish friend to call for her—and officials there finally told her the truth: Her father, mother, and younger brother were in prison camps, each for “preparing to commit terrorist activities.”
Here is a two-page report by the US Congressional Research Service about the Uyghur people in Xinjiang:
With the apparent strong backing of Communist Party General Secretary Xi Jinping, beginning in 2016, the new Communist Party Secretary of the XUAR, former Tibet Party Secretary Chen Quanguo, stepped up security measures aimed at the Uyghur population. Such actions have included the installation of thousands of neighborhood police kiosks, more intrusive monitoring of Internet use, and the collection of biometric data for identification purposes. The central government sent an estimated one million officials and state workers from outside Xinjiang, mostly ethnic Han, to live temporarily in the homes of Uyghurs to assess their loyalty to the Communist Party.
According to some estimates, since 2017, Xinjiang authorities have arbitrarily detained approximately 1.5 million Turkic Muslims, mostly ethnic Uyghurs and a smaller number of Kazakhs, in “reeducation camps.” PRC officials describe the Xinjiang facilities as “vocational education and training centers” where “trainees” study Chinese, learn job skills, undergo “de-extremization” and be “cured of ideological infection.” Some may have engaged in religious and ethnic cultural practices that the government now perceives as extremist, or as manifesting “strongly religious” views or thoughts that could lead to the spread of religious extremism or terrorism. Detainees reportedly are compelled to renounce many of their Islamic beliefs and customs and to undergo self-criticisms. According to some former detainees, treatment and conditions in the camps include crowded and unsanitary conditions, forced labor, food deprivation, beatings, and sexual abuse.
On May 20 2022 03:04 Manit0u wrote: I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China.
People are not missing the point, they are wilfully trying to deflect criticism by bringing up unrelated scenarios.
I do not want US military spending to rise because I think the "Chinese threat" is exaggerated similar to how the USSR threat was exaggerated from 1950 to 1990. Despite total media saturation on the topic the impending Nuclear Holocaust never happened. The US Taxpayer got clowned. Based on video games and hollywood tho ... everyone loves a good "post apocalypse". So they were preaching to the choir.
On May 20 2022 03:04 Manit0u wrote: I think most people are missing the point here. No one is denying that there are other countries that did pretty horrible shit, US genocide of natives and then using the biggest social experiment in the world to bury it in the guise of children's play (cowboys and Indians), British Empire not allowing slavery on their home turf yet having no problem in trading slaves and shipping them off to America, Shanti fighting the British but at the same time selling slaves to the Dutch... There are countless examples of atrocities committed across the world and there's no denying them.
Ultimately though this thread is about China and the difference here is that while US, UK and others did commit horrible things they most likely couldn't do it now while China is violating human rights as we speak. That's the crux of it. There's no point in bringing up XVIII century stuff, unless it's for the sake of comparisons. Sure, there's still dubious stuff going on even in the West (US being partly-exempt from the "no torture" bill, where they can't do it on their own territory but they still have plenty of prisons around the world where there are rumors of torture etc.) but nothing on the scale that's happening in China.
People are not missing the point, they are wilfully trying to deflect criticism by bringing up unrelated scenarios.
I do not want US military spending to rise because I think the "Chinese threat" is exaggerated similar to how the USSR threat was exaggerated from 1950 to 1990. Despite total media saturation on the topic the impending Nuclear Holocaust never happened. The US Taxpayer got clowned. Based on video games and hollywood tho ... everyone loves a good "post apocalypse". So they were preaching to the choir.
My comment wasn't really related to yours. Anyhow, it's pure speculation, but I agree that US military spending will, unfortunately, probably stay around where it is for the foreseeable future. Thankfully I don't pay taxes there.
On May 20 2022 07:36 JimmiC wrote: When a soverign country just invades another military spending does not seem as wasteful. I think most countries will be increasing tgeir budgets.
[QUOTE]On May 20 2022 04:40 Djabanete wrote: This Atlantic article relates the experiences of Uyghurs who have moved from China to Turkey and whose families back home have disappeared:
[quote] Tursun is a Uyghur, a member of China’s predominantly Muslim Chinese minority, born in the territory that the Chinese call Xinjiang and that many Uyghurs know as East Turkestan. Tursun had six children—too many in a country where there are strict rules limiting births. Also, she wanted to raise them as Muslims; that, too, was a problem in China. When she became pregnant again, she feared being harassed by police, as women with more than two children often are. She and her husband decided to move to Turkey. They got passports for themselves and for their youngest child, but were told the other passports would take longer. Because of her pregnancy, the three of them came to Istanbul anyway; after she and her daughter were settled, her husband returned for the rest of the family. Then he disappeared.
That was five years ago. Tursun has not spoken with her husband since. In July 2017, she spoke with her sister, who promised to take care of her remaining children. Then they lost contact. A year after that, Tursun came across a video being passed around on WhatsApp. Shot at what appeared to be a Chinese orphanage, it showed Uyghur children, heads shaved and all dressed alike, learning to speak Chinese. One of the children was her daughter Ayshe.
Tursun showed me the video of her daughter. She also showed me a picture of her husband standing in an Istanbul mosque. She cannot speak to either one of them, or to any of the rest of her children in China. She has no way to know what they are thinking. They might not know she has searched for them. They might believe she has abandoned them on purpose. They might have forgotten she exists.
[/quote][/QUOTE] I don't think that magazine published the backgrounds, which are not stories but facts. On March 1st,2014, 8 Xinjiang terrorist killing people insanely with machetes at Kunming Railwaystation Waiting Hall, caused 31 death and 141 injured. On April 30th,2014，2 terrorist detonated explosives in crowds at Xinjiang Urumuqi South Railwaystaion,caused 3 death and 79 injured. On March 22nd,2014，5 terrorist using jeeps and explosives at Urumuqi Shayibak Park, caused 39death and 94 injured. On September 18th, 2015，a group of terrorists attacked a mining at Aksu Xinjiang, caused 16 death and 18 injured........
So I guess the story you supplied sounds reasonable if the so-called Tursun's relatives are involved in above events. And I find many flaws in your story. Considering you and I are not living in Xinjiang, we both do not know what is the real situations there, UyghurLifeMatter, that's something we both agree. btw on chinese magazines they don't bother to describe how painful Floyd died or the sorrow of his wife/son....that's a difference.
@Dejabenet I can offer you even better stories, true tragic stories that happened around me recently, during the lock-down period in my city and rural areas, a family is stopped at the entrance of a hospital because they lack of recent 48h nucleic acid test results, their baby died due to untimely help. you can imagine the anger of people on such a tragic. Does it prove that the chinese local goverment is shit? or the whole system is wrong? Not every chinese is satisfied with the goverment, there is complains everywhere, but...if you suggest that for this reason the chinese goverment is evil and must be overthrow, I don't think many chinese will agree with you.
On May 20 2022 04:40 Djabanete wrote: This Atlantic article relates the experiences of Uyghurs who have moved from China to Turkey and whose families back home have disappeared:
Tursun is a Uyghur, a member of China’s predominantly Muslim Chinese minority, born in the territory that the Chinese call Xinjiang and that many Uyghurs know as East Turkestan. Tursun had six children—too many in a country where there are strict rules limiting births. Also, she wanted to raise them as Muslims; that, too, was a problem in China. When she became pregnant again, she feared being harassed by police, as women with more than two children often are. She and her husband decided to move to Turkey. They got passports for themselves and for their youngest child, but were told the other passports would take longer. Because of her pregnancy, the three of them came to Istanbul anyway; after she and her daughter were settled, her husband returned for the rest of the family. Then he disappeared.
That was five years ago. Tursun has not spoken with her husband since. In July 2017, she spoke with her sister, who promised to take care of her remaining children. Then they lost contact. A year after that, Tursun came across a video being passed around on WhatsApp. Shot at what appeared to be a Chinese orphanage, it showed Uyghur children, heads shaved and all dressed alike, learning to speak Chinese. One of the children was her daughter Ayshe.
Tursun showed me the video of her daughter. She also showed me a picture of her husband standing in an Istanbul mosque. She cannot speak to either one of them, or to any of the rest of her children in China. She has no way to know what they are thinking. They might not know she has searched for them. They might believe she has abandoned them on purpose. They might have forgotten she exists.
I don't think that magazine published the backgrounds, which are not stories but facts. On March 1st,2014, 8 Xinjiang terrorist killing people insanely with machetes at Kunming Railwaystation Waiting Hall, caused 31 death and 141 injured. On April 30th,2014，2 terrorist detonated explosives in crowds at Xinjiang Urumuqi South Railwaystaion,caused 3 death and 79 injured. On March 22nd,2014，5 terrorist using jeeps and explosives at Urumuqi Shayibak Park, caused 39death and 94 injured. On September 18th, 2015，a group of terrorists attacked a mining at Aksu Xinjiang, caused 16 death and 18 injured........
So I guess the story you supplied sounds reasonable if the so-called Tursun's relatives are involved in above events. And I find many flaws in your story. Considering you and I are not living in Xinjiang, we both do not know what is the real situations there, UyghurLifeMatter, that's something we both agree. btw on chinese magazines they don't bother to describe how painful Floyd died or the sorrow of his wife/son....that's a difference.
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
Not gonna react to your next whataboutism.
Good to know, people who follow the media like sheep and never question their truthfulness better think before posting.
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
Not gonna react to your next whataboutism.
Good to know, people who follow the media like sheep and never question their truthfulness better think before posting.
I don't think the report by the US Congressional Research Service (CRS) that I linked on the previous page really counts as "the media."
Anyway, what's your more reliable source of information?
*****
A quick Google search for the terms [ Uyghur detainee interview ] will turn up about a dozen videos and articles with interviews of detainees and even a former police officer.
In order to help verify his testimony, Jiang showed CNN his police uniform, official documents, photographs, videos, and identification from his time in China, most of which can't be published to protect his identity. CNN has submitted detailed questions to the Chinese government about his accusations, so far without a response.
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
Not gonna react to your next whataboutism.
Good to know, people who follow the media like sheep and never question their truthfulness better think before posting.
I don't think the report by the US Congressional Research Service (CRS) that I linked on the previous page really counts as "the media."
Anyway, what's your more reliable source of information?
Do you really think that CRS reports more reliable than the media? American goverment make "China Humanrights Report" like annually, you can read it as a thriller novel. I have resources in Chinese, do you read Chinese? I don't think anything printed in Chinese is reliable for you...
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
Not gonna react to your next whataboutism.
Good to know, people who follow the media like sheep and never question their truthfulness better think before posting.
I don't think the report by the US Congressional Research Service (CRS) that I linked on the previous page really counts as "the media."
Anyway, what's your more reliable source of information?
Do you really think that CRS reports more reliable than the media? American goverment make "China Humanrights Report" like annually, you can read it as a thriller novel. I have resources in Chinese, do you read Chinese? I don't think anything printed in Chinese is reliable for you...
No, I don't read Chinese. Nevertheless, if you'd like to share what resources you find trustworthy and explain what they say about this matter, that would be a useful contribution to the thread.
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
Not gonna react to your next whataboutism.
Good to know, people who follow the media like sheep and never question their truthfulness better think before posting.
I don't think the report by the US Congressional Research Service (CRS) that I linked on the previous page really counts as "the media."
Anyway, what's your more reliable source of information?
Do you really think that CRS reports more reliable than the media? American goverment make "China Humanrights Report" like annually, you can read it as a thriller novel. I have resources in Chinese, do you read Chinese? I don't think anything printed in Chinese is reliable for you...
No, I don't read Chinese. Nevertheless, if you'd like to share what resources you find trustworthy and explain what they say about this matter, that would be a useful contribution to the thread.
I am afraid my English skills is not sufficient for the job. Regarding to your new resources, I have access to the cnn report, and can't access the link of bbc news or google, there are horrible personal testimonies , I don't want to say it is fake or not , however I would not be surprised if they are partly truth. There are “nation split force” in Xinjiang , they did terrible things to civilians ,you can read my former posts, so the goverment must react on that, and the torture parts are quite similar to what happened in iraq or afganistan or anyother nations with anti-terrorist fights. so what are your suggestions? nevermind , I can't do anything too.
As you seemed to be a caring and studious man, I suggest you to search some documentary on what Urkrainian gerverment did in Donbass and Lukansk since 2014 , there is a little bit off-topic but still helps people to understand the complex conflicts inside and between nations. I can't give you direct links cos now I have no access to youtube.
On May 20 2022 16:40 fakovski wrote: There are “nation split force” in Xinjiang , they did terrible things to civilians ,you can read my former posts, so the goverment must react on that
There are an estimated one million Uyghur people in "re-education" centers / prisons / concentration camps. The idea that they are all terrorists is ludicrous.
On May 20 2022 16:40 fakovski wrote: There are “nation split force” in Xinjiang , they did terrible things to civilians ,you can read my former posts, so the goverment must react on that
There are an estimated one million Uyghur people in "re-education" centers / prisons / concentration camps. The idea that they are all terrorists is ludicrous.
Do people think it is the same million+ from years ago?
So, without any evidence, you just assume that the family of this random person (including the children?) is involved in terrorism, just because of their ethnicity. And you wonder why people think that maybe this ethnicity is being mistreated?
Not gonna react to your next whataboutism.
Good to know, people who follow the media like sheep and never question their truthfulness better think before posting.
Do people in mainland China have access to this site? If not how are you getting it? This response is so QAnon style, as are much of yours.
Other people have provided sources and info you and those agree with you have provided nothing but "nuhuh" and accusations of racism.
Yes of course, I am now sitting right in mainland China without VPN. I have access to CNN too, but not BBC，do you know why BBC is banned in China? They make great documentaries on Nature and Science, but most of their photo on China is gloomy , the Chinese even make a specil word for BBC style- Infernal Filter.
Though I don't understand “QAon” and "nuhuh", I still have the patience to reply here. I actually translated some of your opinions on China and posted in chinese forums, no one is interested. Yes, most chinese don't really care what the western look on them, oh, for the infos that not worth refuting， I did not reply.
I am grateful that this post reveals some of the ture thoughts on China, which is not quite different from what I expected.
On May 20 2022 16:40 fakovski wrote: There are “nation split force” in Xinjiang , they did terrible things to civilians ,you can read my former posts, so the goverment must react on that
There are an estimated one million Uyghur people in "re-education" centers / prisons / concentration camps. The idea that they are all terrorists is ludicrous.
yes , ESTIMATED obviously I and common chinese don't think so, I think "thousands" could be a proper unit.
Another subject that's quite fascinating, how shitty apartments in China are worth millions of US dollars while at the same time there's thousands of apartment complexes that are completely empty.
that's something every chinese feels really ridiculous , it should not happen in a socialism country
On May 20 2022 16:40 fakovski wrote: There are “nation split force” in Xinjiang , they did terrible things to civilians ,you can read my former posts, so the goverment must react on that
There are an estimated one million Uyghur people in "re-education" centers / prisons / concentration camps. The idea that they are all terrorists is ludicrous.
Do people think it is the same million+ from years ago?
Does 1/25th of the entire population of their race, highest in the world work? Do you have any actual information to provide or just condecending, innacurate one liners?
the tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs
that last line of your info: Wu reported from Taipei, Taiwan. I actually have NO information on "how many Uyghurs in prison" , you can find chinese goverment's reports on the web, which is offical but unbelievable for you. Only they have numbers, so what do you expect ME to do? You require too much for a common chinese. I don't work for the goverment, I am not quite interested in politics ,I am only an Engineer who happens to get some interest to reply you guys.
Thank you for phraise my grammar,I was good at English, however, without using this language for years，my spellings are sick now. I don't use translation softwares, so sometimes I find it difficult to express my thoughts acurately. I will not be in jail for posting here, and I think no one will.
On May 20 2022 16:40 fakovski wrote: There are “nation split force” in Xinjiang , they did terrible things to civilians ,you can read my former posts, so the goverment must react on that
There are an estimated one million Uyghur people in "re-education" centers / prisons / concentration camps. The idea that they are all terrorists is ludicrous.
Do people think it is the same million+ from years ago?
Does 1/25th of the entire population of their race, highest in the world work? Do you have any actual information to provide or just condecending, innacurate one liners?
Any luck finding any actual source on it not being as bad as it is and been reported on and vetted?
Might be time to stop looking for information to prove your conclusion correct and instead use information to form your conclusions.
the tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs
that last line of your info: Wu reported from Taipei, Taiwan. I actually have NO information on "how many Uyghurs in prison" , you can find chinese goverment's reports on the web, which is offical but unbelievable for you. Only they have numbers, so what do you expect ME to do? You require too much for a common chinese. I don't work for the goverment, I am not quite interested in politics ,I am only an Engineer who happens to get some interest to reply you guys.
You could provide a source. Do you not have newspapers and online reporting? I do not have thr kind of access or understanding of the language.
If it is so easy do it. In fact sourcing your claims is the minimum requirement of politics threads.
OK， I printed "xinjiang humanrights report" in chinese on chinese searching engine baidu, and got about 9,990,000 results, here is one on the first page, you can read it with translation apps. https://www.chinanews.com.cn/gj/2021/06-29/9509626.shtml
I didn't read through the whole articles, I just found some news for you to read. and the first article is related with Italians and the last one is an answer to a french press on excatly the question. I don't know much about SaudiArabia, are they not member of american allies? oh someone got dismembered years ago? The might have bad human rights there, they agreeing with our govs policy doesn't mean anything to me, western countries agree with our gov policies too, sometimes at least.
On May 21 2022 12:15 fakovski wrote: that's why I didn't search any info for you , man see what they want to see anyway.
For what it's worth I appreciate you giving some insight on your perspective of what is going on there.
My intention isn't to be patronizing so I apologize if I come off that way. I don't want to pester you with "As a Chinese person in China...?" type questions but if you'd prefer to field some questions about your (or general Chinese) experiences/life in China I've got some ready.
One would be: Do you personally vote in your local elections?
On May 21 2022 12:15 fakovski wrote: that's why I didn't search any info for you , man see what they want to see anyway.
For what it's worth I appreciate you giving some insight on your perspective of what is going on there.
My intention isn't to be patronizing so I apologize if I come off that way. I don't want to pester you with "As a Chinese person in China...?" type questions but if you'd prefer to field some questions about your (or general Chinese) experiences/life in China I've got some ready.
One would be: Do you personally vote in your local elections?
NO . I am living in a city,usually elections are down by party leaders in your block. they vote for upper class of leaders, and those leaders vote for city governers, and province governers...state governers....
In rural areas, farmers do vote personaly for village leaders or town leaders, then those leaders vote for upper class leaders.
On May 21 2022 12:15 fakovski wrote: that's why I didn't search any info for you , man see what they want to see anyway.
For what it's worth I appreciate you giving some insight on your perspective of what is going on there.
My intention isn't to be patronizing so I apologize if I come off that way. I don't want to pester you with "As a Chinese person in China...?" type questions but if you'd prefer to field some questions about your (or general Chinese) experiences/life in China I've got some ready.
One would be: Do you personally vote in your local elections?
NO . I am living in a city,usually elections are down by party leaders in your block. they vote for upper class of leaders, and those leaders vote for city governers, and province governers...state governers....
In rural areas, farmers do vote personaly for village leaders or town leaders, then those leaders vote for upper class leaders.
Thanks. Did you grow up in the city or move there at some later age? I ask because I'm curious if you also have personal experience in a more rural part of China so I can stick to asking stuff you're more familiar with.
On May 21 2022 12:15 fakovski wrote: that's why I didn't search any info for you , man see what they want to see anyway.
For what it's worth I appreciate you giving some insight on your perspective of what is going on there.
My intention isn't to be patronizing so I apologize if I come off that way. I don't want to pester you with "As a Chinese person in China...?" type questions but if you'd prefer to field some questions about your (or general Chinese) experiences/life in China I've got some ready.
One would be: Do you personally vote in your local elections?
NO . I am living in a city,usually elections are down by party leaders in your block. they vote for upper class of leaders, and those leaders vote for city governers, and province governers...state governers....
In rural areas, farmers do vote personaly for village leaders or town leaders, then those leaders vote for upper class leaders.
Thanks. Did you grow up in the city or move there at some later age?
Grown up in the city. I hadn't voted yet, when there's no TV debate and you don't really know what are the thoughts of potential leaders, vote became a gamble, however I find its no better in foreign lands. "King of know-all" and "King of sleep"we call Trump and Biden.
I tried google both in english and Chinese to see if they were complimenting or mock Trump. Can you point me in the direction of these chats or articles?
of course there’s no article about mocking foreign leaders. Its just a nickname we Chinese webbers use. try to search in Chinese “懂王” and “睡王” instead.
On May 21 2022 12:32 fakovski wrote: I didn't read through the whole articles, I just found some news for you to read. and the first article is related with Italians and the last one is an answer to a french press on excatly the question. I don't know much about SaudiArabia, are they not member of american allies? oh someone got dismembered years ago? The might have bad human rights there, they agreeing with our govs policy doesn't mean anything to me, western countries agree with our gov policies too, sometimes at least.
Yes terrible, that is the point and why them supporting China on human rights is not a positive. No one who would be positive would ir did agree.
I did not want random articles in Chinese, I could google those, I asked for insightful local sources that helped with your perspective.
I notice you dodge all my direct questions, which is very telling.
Do you think that if the Gov is censoring for such silly reasons as too gloomy that they are also censoring any critism, especially those that include not flattering truth?
Im not american so your weak and blatant dodge really missed the mark. But me and Americans have no problem finding, reading and commenting on negative things about our countries, their allies, politicians and so on.
This is not a my country is perfect and yours is not. This is a your country is commiting massive human rights abuses, is terrible for the environment, does not allow free speech, is terrible on LGBTQ+ issues, censors all news and information, is imperialistic, has rampant nepotism and privilege, is imperialistic and expansionist, leads the world in dealth penalty, political prisioners.
China like every country should be open to critism and if they feel it is unfair or untrue they should explain why. Censoring, hiding information, not letting everyone see should make everyone question what those curating the news and raking in billions intrests really are.
I will reply on this later，when I have more spare time.
Found out a new one yesterday watching a documentary on the Yangtze River; apperently Chinese citizens are not even allowed to own their own house; they can only lease it long term from the goverment, and, as in the case of the building of the great damn, which allegedly powers 1/10 of chinas massive energetical needs, over 5 million people had to forcefully give up their homes, because the homes ended up being flooded; Now a lot of people where not happy with having to be relocated against their will for “the greater good” ; especially old people that where farmers and know of no other way of life. Because they do not dwell well in their new homes that look like Soviet blocks. The goverment did spend also 150 million usd to relocate historical buildings that where going to be submerged underwater. And many of them did indeed go underwater, as moving to higher ground a 2000 year old building does not always go as planned.
I did not want random articles in Chinese, I could google those, I asked for insightful local sources that helped with your perspective.
I notice you dodge all my direct questions, which is very telling.
Do you think that if the Gov is censoring for such silly reasons as too gloomy that they are also censoring any critism, especially those that include not flattering truth?
Im not american so your weak and blatant dodge really missed the mark. But me and Americans have no problem finding, reading and commenting on negative things about our countries, their allies, politicians and so on.
This is not a my country is perfect and yours is not. This is a your country is commiting massive human rights abuses, is terrible for the environment, does not allow free speech, is terrible on LGBTQ+ issues, censors all news and information, is imperialistic, has rampant nepotism and privilege, is imperialistic and expansionist, leads the world in dealth penalty, political prisioners.
China like every country should be open to critism and if they feel it is unfair or untrue they should explain why. Censoring, hiding information, not letting everyone see should make everyone question what those curating the news and raking in billions intrests really are.
I did not want random articles in Chinese, I could google those, I asked for insightful local sources that helped with your perspective.----- what I offered you are local insightful sources, I searched the keywords on your question, they are local so they are in Chinese, and I offered my testimony, isn't that enough? or maybe you tell me what is really insightful for you? a self-criticism on china' systems? There are many chinese books on ridiculous educational systems/high prices of house/ famers' burden/vulnerable members of the society....., they are very good, unfortunately they are not translated into English. Do you think that if the Gov is censoring for such silly reasons as too gloomy that they are also censoring any critism, especially those that include not flattering truth? --------They are not fully censored, we hear critisms like everyday, the most recent one is that on 17th May, "Nelson， Director of NASA blame China for stealling technology from U.S. and the day before yesterday the United States Department of Justice criticize on Chinese human rights. I found these news on chinese websites, and I am sitting here facing your critism, isn't that much telling? It is , a bit silly, I would say, to ban BBC or youtube, but they did it for some reasons. There are many vicious contents on the web,for example, you would not advice your kid to view porntube, or your ppl to view “dark past of ccp".
Im not american so your weak and blatant dodge really missed the mark. But me and Americans have no problem finding, reading and commenting on negative things about our countries, their allies, politicians and so on.--------when I saw you ID I thought you were a chinese, because JimmyChen is a very common English name for a chinese, and webbers from taiwan or HK are the most anti-china ppl. I didn't dodge anything, my speech here are quite plain. We chinese ppl talk about corruptions of goverment leaders on chinese forums too, but not the president. If you make such a topic, it will come to a immediately deletion. However, our president doesn't make much speech on TV, what to argue ?His policies are good for people, his books and articles are mainly focus on improving people's lives. I am not targeting American or Canada, I know the people there are usually nice. I have some american church members friends.
This is not a my country is perfect and yours is not. ------who said that? The chinese ppl know clearly of our imperfections, it is the Internet-era , when bad things happen you hear it on smartphones 5minutes after. We have an app called wechat and ppl share info/videos instantly，you can not cosore millions messages at every second, you know what I mean?
This is a your country is commiting massive human rights abuses--- partly truth, for example, many ppl work additional hours without fair payment （damn capitalists!), as for the Urguns problems even thousands is not a massive number comparing with their population. millions? are you kidding me.
is terrible for the environment---------- when you are the world factory and have the largest population , you of course produce more pollutions than other countries. The goverment is taking actions on environmental protections，the chines laws of environmental protections are published in 2014,I can feel the progress we made.
does not allow free speech--------ppl talk about everything on chinese forums, they can do peacefully demonstration to protest, I saw protestors gathering infront of local goverment doors like several times a year. and if they are not satisfied they can go to Beijing，there is a Letters and Complaints Bureau.
is terrible on LGBTQ+ issues---------- this is the most ridiculous part, LGBTQs are not descriminated today in China, I do have a transsexual friend in suzhou,china.However, homo-married is still not allowed. They don't put you jail or you are not losing jobs for your sexual orientations.as for my own perspectives, I want to say that caring LGBTQs or animals doesn't make you more humane, I met ppl who really like cats&dogs but treat man badly. you know what I mean? To care everyone is virtue, to blame someone for not caring everyone is not. censors all news and information------ not all, as I said is imperialistic----- oh really? has rampant nepotism and privilege---that is truth and since Xi, the gov are fighting against corruption ，in2020 there were about 628000 cases investigated, and most were sent to jail I think。 is imperialistic and expansionist,--- come to the word "imperialistic", only nazi germany/japan/italy back in WWII shared such honor, In PRC's 73 years history, where did we expand? Chinese military expenditure were and is below 2% GDP. are you suggesting taiwan?check Sino US joint communique in1972 leads the world in dealth penalty, ----yes I know political prisioners- depends on how you define political. there are many ppl who were incited to try to take down the party or gov, if 100 deaths per year I would not be surprised, while in other countries the number is quite low because there are no death penalties or whatever.
On May 21 2022 17:18 pebble444 wrote: Found out a new one yesterday watching a documentary on the Yangtze River; apperently Chinese citizens are not even allowed to own their own house; they can only lease it long term from the goverment, and, as in the case of the building of the great damn, which allegedly powers 1/10 of chinas massive energetical needs, over 5 million people had to forcefully give up their homes, because the homes ended up being flooded; Now a lot of people where not happy with having to be relocated against their will for “the greater good” ; especially old people that where farmers and know of no other way of life. Because they do not dwell well in their new homes that look like Soviet blocks. The goverment did spend also 150 million usd to relocate historical buildings that where going to be submerged underwater. And many of them did indeed go underwater, as moving to higher ground a 2000 year old building does not always go as planned.
On May 21 2022 12:32 fakovski wrote: I didn't read through the whole articles, I just found some news for you to read. and the first article is related with Italians and the last one is an answer to a french press on excatly the question. I don't know much about SaudiArabia, are they not member of american allies? oh someone got dismembered years ago? The might have bad human rights there, they agreeing with our govs policy doesn't mean anything to me, western countries agree with our gov policies too, sometimes at least.
In Saudi Arabia you still have people selling castrated slaves. It's actually one of the worst offenders when it comes to human rights abuses.
It’s surreal that fakovski says people can talk about whatever they want online, except that they can’t criticize the president — such a topic would be deleted — which is fine because he never does anything wrong.
chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
People read this thread and conclude that the evil West wishes to colonize China? Would you mind unpacking that logic?
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
People read this thread and conclude that the evil West wishes to colonize China? Would you mind unpacking that logic?
The opium wars are an interesting read. Can't blame the Chinese for not thinking that they wouldn't get ripped off if the west had its way.
On May 22 2022 09:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Ya'll are racist af and it strengthens chinese ultra nationalism in a reactionary manner
Calling names is not discussion. "Racist" is a serious insult, and calling anyone critizising you a racist is not a stance I can respect, from anyone.
It is possible to talk about flaws with a country without meaning the people living there are awful. A nationality is very personal, but there are wonderful people living under the most awful regimes. Please don't take critizism of your government as a personal insult.
I was totally wrong , on the fundamental level. I tried to explain things that happend in China to westerners in their language and the 8-pages debate turned out to be a fierce wrangling, vicious words are at the lips. I suppose that my image here is a lying/sophistry/stone-head man, and should stop talking but facing the truth, Which is EXACTLY the image of CHINA in western media.
Before I fleet away, I still have something to say, The arguing here is actually not me with some western guys, its core is not even human rights or democracy in China, it reveals the conflict between a rising China and a falling West, a conflict bewteen two great civilizations.
Westerners will never understand things happened in China without understanding China itself.
It's a widespread assumption in the West that as countries modernize, they also westernize. This is an illusion. It's an assumption that modernity is a product simply of competition, markets and technology. It is not. It is also shaped equally by history and culture.
China is not like the West, and it will not become like the West. It will remain in very fundamental respects very differently.
China is not really a nation-state. Okay, it called itself a nation-state for the last hundred years, but everyone who knows anything about China knows it's a lot older than this. Now what is extraordinary about this is, what gives China its sense of being China, what gives the Chinese the sense of what it is to be Chinese, comes not from the last hundred years, not from the nation-state period, which is what happened in the West, but from the period, if you like, of the civilization-state. I'm thinking here, for example, of customs like ancestral worship, of a very distinctive notion of the state, likewise, a very distinctive notion of the family, social relationships like guanxi, Confucian values and so on. These are all things that come from the period of the civilization-state. In other words, China, unlike the Western states and most countries in the world, is shaped by its sense of civilization, its existence as a civilization-state, rather than as a nation-state. And there's one other thing to add to this, and that is this: Of course we know China's big, huge, demographically and geographically, with a population of 1.6 billion people. What we often aren't really aware of is the fact that China is extremely diverse and very pluralistic, and in many ways very decentralized. You can't run a place on this scale simply from Beijing, even though the westerners think this to be the case. It's never been the case.
So this is China, a civilization-state, rather than a nation-state. And what does it mean? Well, I think it has all sorts of profound implications. I'll give you two quick ones. The first is that the most important political value for the Chinese is unity, is the maintenance of Chinese civilization. You know, 2,000 years ago, Europe: breakdown -- the fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire. It divided, and it's remained divided ever since. China, over the same time period, went in exactly the opposite direction, very painfully holding this huge civilization, civilization-state, together. The second is Hong Kong. Do you remember the handover of Hong Kong by Britain to China in 1997? You may remember what the Chinese constitutional proposition was. One country, two systems. And I bet that barely anyone in the West believed them. "Window dressing. When China gets its hands on Hong Kong, that won't be the case." 25 years on, the political and legal system in Hong Kong is as now as it was in 1997. The westerners were wrong because they thought, naturally enough, in nation-state ways. Think of German unification, 1990. What happened? Well, basically the East was swallowed by the West. One nation, one system. That is the nation-state mentality. But you can't run a country like China, a civilization-state, on the basis of one civilization, one system. It doesn't work.
Let me offer you another building block to try and understand China -- maybe not sort of a comfortable one. The Chinese have a very, very different conception of race to most other countries. Do you know, of the 1.6 billion Chinese, over 90 percent of them think they belong to the same race, the Han? Now, this is completely different from the world's other most populous countries. India, the United States, Indonesia, Brazil -- all of them are multiracial. The Chinese don't feel like that. China is only multiracial really at the margins. So the question is, why? Well the reason, I think, essentially is, again, back to the civilization-state. A history of at least 2,000 years, a history of conquest, occupation, absorption, assimilation and so on, led to the process by which, over time, this notion of the Han emerged -- of course, nurtured by a growing and very powerful sense of cultural identity. Now the great advantage of this historical experience has been that, without the Han, China could never have held together. The Han identity has been the cement which has held this country together.
Or let me give you my third building block, the Chinese state. Now the relationship between the state and society in China is very different from that in the West. In the West overwhelmingly seem to think -- in these days at least -- that the authority and legitimacy of the state is a function of democracy. The problem with this proposition is that the Chinese state enjoys more legitimacy and more authority amongst the Chinese than is true with any Western state. And the reason for this is because -- well, there are two reasons, I think. And it's obviously got nothing to do with democracy, because in western terms the Chinese certainly don't have a democracy. And the reason for this is, firstly, because the state in China is given a very special -- it enjoys a very special significance as the representative, the embodiment and the guardian of Chinese civilization, of the civilization-state. This is as close as China gets to a kind of spiritual role.
And the second reason is because, whereas in Europe and North America, the state's power is continuously challenged -- I mean in the European tradition, historically against the church, against other sectors of the aristocracy, against merchants and so on -- for 1,000 years, the power of the Chinese state has not been challenged. It's had no serious rivals. So you can see that the way in which power has been constructed in China is very different from experience in Western history. The result, by the way, is that the Chinese have a very different view of the state. Whereas westerners tend to view it as an intruder, a stranger, certainly an organ whose powers need to be limited or defined and constrained, the Chinese don't see the state like that at all. The Chinese view the state as an intimate -- not just as an intimate actually, as a member of the family -- not just in fact as a member of the family, but as the head of the family, the patriarch of the family. This is the Chinese view of the state -- very, very different to the western. It's embedded in society in a different kind of way to what is the case in the West.
And I would suggest to you that actually what we are dealing with here, in the Chinese context, is a new kind of paradigm, which is different from anything in the past.
Westerners try to understand China by simply drawing on Western experience, looking at it through Western eyes, using Western concepts. Unfortunately, I think, I have to say that I think attitude towards China is that of a kind of little Westerner mentality. It's kind of arrogant. It's arrogant in the sense that westerners think that they are best, and therefore they have the universal measure. And secondly, it's ignorant. They refuse to really address the issue of difference. You know, there's a very interesting passage in a book by Paul Cohen, the American historian. And Paul Cohen argues that the West thinks of itself as probably the most cosmopolitan of all cultures. But it's not. In many ways, it's the most parochial, because for 200 years, the West has been so dominant in the world that it's not really needed to understand other cultures, other civilizations. Because, at the end of the day, it could, if necessary by force, get its own way. Whereas those cultures -- virtually the rest of the world, in fact, which have been in a far weaker position, vis-a-vis the West -- have been thereby forced to understand the West, because of the West's presence in those societies. And therefore, they are, as a result, more cosmopolitan in many ways than the West.
For 200 years, the world was essentially governed by a fragment of the human population. That's what Europe and North America represented. The arrival of countries like China and India -- between them 38 percent of the world's population -- and others like Indonesia and Brazil and so on, represent the most important single act of democratization in the last 200 years. Civilizations and cultures, which had been ignored, which had no voice, which were not listened to, which were not known about, will have a different sort of representation in this world. As humanists, we must welcome, surely, this transformation, and we will have to learn about these civilizations.
Remember, the West conquered the world with GUNS, not values, The westerners kept fight each other ,ignited WWI/II ,bringing war and millions death to other races too. They are fighting even NOW in East Europe. SO, it is VERY, VERY, hard for them to peddeling values and human rights to people in Arab/Afganistan or China.
On May 22 2022 23:17 fakovski wrote: I was totally wrong , on the fundamental level. I tried to explain things that happend in China to westerners in their language and the 8-pages debate turned out to be a fierce wrangling, vicious words are at the lips. I suppose that my image here is a lying/sophistry/stone-head man, and should stop talking but facing the truth, Which is EXACTLY the image of CHINA in western media.
Before I fleet away, I still have something to say, The arguing here is actually not me with some western guys, its core is not even human rights or democracy in China, it reveals the conflict between a rising China and a falling West, a conflict bewteen two great civilizations.
Westerners will never understand things happened in China without understanding China itself.
It's a widespread assumption in the West that as countries modernize, they also westernize. This is an illusion. It's an assumption that modernity is a product simply of competition, markets and technology. It is not. It is also shaped equally by history and culture.
China is not like the West, and it will not become like the West. It will remain in very fundamental respects very differently.
China is not really a nation-state. Okay, it called itself a nation-state for the last hundred years, but everyone who knows anything about China knows it's a lot older than this. Now what is extraordinary about this is, what gives China its sense of being China, what gives the Chinese the sense of what it is to be Chinese, comes not from the last hundred years, not from the nation-state period, which is what happened in the West, but from the period, if you like, of the civilization-state. I'm thinking here, for example, of customs like ancestral worship, of a very distinctive notion of the state, likewise, a very distinctive notion of the family, social relationships like guanxi, Confucian values and so on. These are all things that come from the period of the civilization-state. In other words, China, unlike the Western states and most countries in the world, is shaped by its sense of civilization, its existence as a civilization-state, rather than as a nation-state. And there's one other thing to add to this, and that is this: Of course we know China's big, huge, demographically and geographically, with a population of 1.6 billion people. What we often aren't really aware of is the fact that China is extremely diverse and very pluralistic, and in many ways very decentralized. You can't run a place on this scale simply from Beijing, even though the westerners think this to be the case. It's never been the case.
So this is China, a civilization-state, rather than a nation-state. And what does it mean? Well, I think it has all sorts of profound implications. I'll give you two quick ones. The first is that the most important political value for the Chinese is unity, is the maintenance of Chinese civilization. You know, 2,000 years ago, Europe: breakdown -- the fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire. It divided, and it's remained divided ever since. China, over the same time period, went in exactly the opposite direction, very painfully holding this huge civilization, civilization-state, together. The second is Hong Kong. Do you remember the handover of Hong Kong by Britain to China in 1997? You may remember what the Chinese constitutional proposition was. One country, two systems. And I bet that barely anyone in the West believed them. "Window dressing. When China gets its hands on Hong Kong, that won't be the case." 25 years on, the political and legal system in Hong Kong is as now as it was in 1997. The westerners were wrong because they thought, naturally enough, in nation-state ways. Think of German unification, 1990. What happened? Well, basically the East was swallowed by the West. One nation, one system. That is the nation-state mentality. But you can't run a country like China, a civilization-state, on the basis of one civilization, one system. It doesn't work.
Let me offer you another building block to try and understand China -- maybe not sort of a comfortable one. The Chinese have a very, very different conception of race to most other countries. Do you know, of the 1.6 billion Chinese, over 90 percent of them think they belong to the same race, the Han? Now, this is completely different from the world's other most populous countries. India, the United States, Indonesia, Brazil -- all of them are multiracial. The Chinese don't feel like that. China is only multiracial really at the margins. So the question is, why? Well the reason, I think, essentially is, again, back to the civilization-state. A history of at least 2,000 years, a history of conquest, occupation, absorption, assimilation and so on, led to the process by which, over time, this notion of the Han emerged -- of course, nurtured by a growing and very powerful sense of cultural identity. Now the great advantage of this historical experience has been that, without the Han, China could never have held together. The Han identity has been the cement which has held this country together.
Or let me give you my third building block, the Chinese state. Now the relationship between the state and society in China is very different from that in the West. In the West overwhelmingly seem to think -- in these days at least -- that the authority and legitimacy of the state is a function of democracy. The problem with this proposition is that the Chinese state enjoys more legitimacy and more authority amongst the Chinese than is true with any Western state. And the reason for this is because -- well, there are two reasons, I think. And it's obviously got nothing to do with democracy, because in western terms the Chinese certainly don't have a democracy. And the reason for this is, firstly, because the state in China is given a very special -- it enjoys a very special significance as the representative, the embodiment and the guardian of Chinese civilization, of the civilization-state. This is as close as China gets to a kind of spiritual role.
And the second reason is because, whereas in Europe and North America, the state's power is continuously challenged -- I mean in the European tradition, historically against the church, against other sectors of the aristocracy, against merchants and so on -- for 1,000 years, the power of the Chinese state has not been challenged. It's had no serious rivals. So you can see that the way in which power has been constructed in China is very different from experience in Western history. The result, by the way, is that the Chinese have a very different view of the state. Whereas westerners tend to view it as an intruder, a stranger, certainly an organ whose powers need to be limited or defined and constrained, the Chinese don't see the state like that at all. The Chinese view the state as an intimate -- not just as an intimate actually, as a member of the family -- not just in fact as a member of the family, but as the head of the family, the patriarch of the family. This is the Chinese view of the state -- very, very different to the western. It's embedded in society in a different kind of way to what is the case in the West.
And I would suggest to you that actually what we are dealing with here, in the Chinese context, is a new kind of paradigm, which is different from anything in the past.
Westerners try to understand China by simply drawing on Western experience, looking at it through Western eyes, using Western concepts. Unfortunately, I think, I have to say that I think attitude towards China is that of a kind of little Westerner mentality. It's kind of arrogant. It's arrogant in the sense that westerners think that they are best, and therefore they have the universal measure. And secondly, it's ignorant. They refuse to really address the issue of difference. You know, there's a very interesting passage in a book by Paul Cohen, the American historian. And Paul Cohen argues that the West thinks of itself as probably the most cosmopolitan of all cultures. But it's not. In many ways, it's the most parochial, because for 200 years, the West has been so dominant in the world that it's not really needed to understand other cultures, other civilizations. Because, at the end of the day, it could, if necessary by force, get its own way. Whereas those cultures -- virtually the rest of the world, in fact, which have been in a far weaker position, vis-a-vis the West -- have been thereby forced to understand the West, because of the West's presence in those societies. And therefore, they are, as a result, more cosmopolitan in many ways than the West.
For 200 years, the world was essentially governed by a fragment of the human population. That's what Europe and North America represented. The arrival of countries like China and India -- between them 38 percent of the world's population -- and others like Indonesia and Brazil and so on, represent the most important single act of democratization in the last 200 years. Civilizations and cultures, which had been ignored, which had no voice, which were not listened to, which were not known about, will have a different sort of representation in this world. As humanists, we must welcome, surely, this transformation, and we will have to learn about these civilizations.
Remember, the West conquered the world with GUNS, not values, The westerners kept fight each other ,ignited WWI/II ,bringing war and millions death to other races too. They are fighting even NOW in East Europe. SO, it is VERY, VERY, hard for them to peddeling values and human rights to people in Arab/Afganistan or China.
So, which one of you is the real one, the one throwing broken english one liners at the forum to stir up controversy or the one posting long flawless english opinion pieces with a vocabulary that would fit a native language professor? I have no problem confessing that i don't understand chinese society and that i am watching it with a western perspective. I am also not stupid enough to claim that other people don't have to criticize my culture, just because they are not part of it. And i don't try to paint a chinese civilization vs western civilisation picture, and try to underline it with the 2000y my country as existed and the myth, that all the steps this region of the world took had to lead to the now existing society and was a contant positive development up to what it is now. That is pure bullshit and you know it.
On May 22 2022 23:17 fakovski wrote: The second is Hong Kong. Do you remember the handover of Hong Kong by Britain to China in 1997? You may remember what the Chinese constitutional proposition was. One country, two systems. And I bet that barely anyone in the West believed them. "Window dressing. When China gets its hands on Hong Kong, that won't be the case." 25 years on, the political and legal system in Hong Kong is as now as it was in 1997. The westerners were wrong because they thought, naturally enough, in nation-state ways. Think of German unification, 1990. What happened? Well, basically the East was swallowed by the West. One nation, one system. That is the nation-state mentality. But you can't run a country like China, a civilization-state, on the basis of one civilization, one system. It doesn't work.
The West was 100% right and I don’t know if this is some weird lie you’re peddling or if you’re genuinely unaware of the protests and crackdowns in Hong Kong. If you’re genuinely unaware then this is about the most perfect example of the perspective of someone who doesn’t understand they live in a dictatorship.
The one country two systems agreement for HK fell apart when the Chinese government couldn’t accept the freedoms the people of HK took for granted. They stripped HK of its political freedoms, imposed new laws on speech and expression, and moved in outside law enforcement to impose their will. HK was protesting for years.
You present HK as an example of success despite western doubts when it has been one of the most high profile failures and exactly what the west said would happen. That you somehow did not know what happened in HK is exactly why you’re not free. You think you’re free but you’re drawing your conclusions from a world that has been carefully constructed and curated for you. How can you possibly evaluate the success of one country two systems if you never see the failures.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
People read this thread and conclude that the evil West wishes to colonize China? Would you mind unpacking that logic?
The opium wars are an interesting read. Can't blame the Chinese for not thinking that they wouldn't get ripped off if the west had its way.
Carnivorous Sheep said people would read “threads like these” and conclude Xi was right [that the evil colonialists are out to get them]. I think it is fair to ask what aspect of this thread supports that view. I was hoping the explanation would make reference to one or more specific posts.
China is a dictatorship, that allows no personal freedom to its citizens or foreigners visiting the country. The goverment there harvests peoples organs, prohibits religious freedom, inhibits development of the mind and body of the people living there. Possibly even brainwashing people.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
Chinese people travel over seas to Canada, wow it is sure nice amd the governmemt is not as awful, people treat them well. Then they stay.
Not so sure about this. When it comes to chinese students studying abroad, theres been a huge increase in those returning home compared to staying in foreign countries. This is an older article from 2018, but it shows the trend of chinese students electing to return home rather than stay in their study abroad countries. https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
I think a major factor people don't understand that Carnivorous Sheep doesn't really explain is that, at least for the young people of China born maybe 1985 onwards, all they've seen is growth in the economy and living standards go up. It's not like young people are idiots that are brainwashed either. It's not incredibly difficult to get a VPN in China. IIRC Huawei phones when they were still on Android literally came preinstalled with a VPN lol. Young chinese people know much more of what's going on in the west compared to western people knowing whats going in China. A lot of my friends who were overseas students initially came here with high expectations of the US being welcoming and friendly and ended up being disappointed. Imagine, you come to a foreign country to study that you have respect for. But when you get there, all you see every day in their media is how shit your country is and how bad it is, even though that doesn't line up at all with your actual lived experience, then get insulted for almost no reason just because you came from that country. That would leave a bad taste in your mouth wouldn't it? You'd probably think "man, the government was right. western people really do not like us. And at least our government is doing a good job improving our living standards" That would push you farther into just hanging out w/ people from your home country and desire to go home.
For the HK situation, they kind of fucked themselves in 1997 when they were ~20-25% of the GDP of China. HK people are notorious for being snobby and assholes to people from mainland China. They did not try to help improve the situation of the entire China, nor did they attempt to be friendly with the mainland people back in 1997. Much of the problems in HK really don't come from being governed by China, but their own system e.g. HK is such a business hub because of low taxes, but they are only able to have such low taxes since a large portion government income comes from sales of land. This incentivizes the government to increase the price of land by limiting supply of it i.e. no new housing. Plus a third of their voting population are literally companies, not people, since their system includes a vote for industries. So you have a generation of young people who grew up living in a place controlled by corporations and a perception that the future will not improve. That's a really easy group to take advantage of to further political goals; in this case, independence movements or if you buy into conspiracy theories, western insurrection. But in reality even independence wouldn't help HK at all. And the only people that possibly could've helped HK were the mainland people, but due to shitty behaviour, HKers already burned that bridge a long time ago.
edit: Just wanted to mention the perception of the strength of chinese censorship is greatly exaggerated in the west. You can totally criticize the government in personal conversations and on the internet. It just gets sketch when you have a huge audience and are calling for some sort of action against the government. But yeah, where do you think the xi = pooh meme came from lol.
Yeah I don't uh think he did that all on his own. Most of their post is ripped from various Martin Jaques quotes and changed slightly to try and hide it. If you run that post through a plagiarism tracker throws up tons of red flags.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
Chinese people travel over seas to Canada, wow it is sure nice amd the governmemt is not as awful, people treat them well. Then they stay.
Not so sure about this. When it comes to chinese students studying abroad, theres been a huge increase in those returning home compared to staying in foreign countries. This is an older article from 2018, but it shows the trend of chinese students electing to return home rather than stay in their study abroad countries. https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
I think a major factor people don't understand that Carnivorous Sheep doesn't really explain is that, at least for the young people of China born maybe 1985 onwards, all they've seen is growth in the economy and living standards go up. It's not like young people are idiots that are brainwashed either. It's not incredibly difficult to get a VPN in China. IIRC Huawei phones when they were still on Android literally came preinstalled with a VPN lol. Young chinese people know much more of what's going on in the west compared to western people knowing whats going in China. A lot of my friends who were overseas students initially came here with high expectations of the US being welcoming and friendly and ended up being disappointed. Imagine, you come to a foreign country to study that you have respect for. But when you get there, all you see every day in their media is how shit your country is and how bad it is, even though that doesn't line up at all with your actual lived experience, then get insulted for almost no reason just because you came from that country. That would leave a bad taste in your mouth wouldn't it? You'd probably think "man, the government was right. western people really do not like us. And at least our government is doing a good job improving our living standards" That would push you farther into just hanging out w/ people from your home country and desire to go home.
For the HK situation, they kind of fucked themselves in 1997 when they were ~20-25% of the GDP of China. HK people are notorious for being snobby and assholes to people from mainland China. They did not try to help improve the situation of the entire China, nor did they attempt to be friendly with the mainland people back in 1997. Much of the problems in HK really don't come from being governed by China, but their own system e.g. HK is such a business hub because of low taxes, but they are only able to have such low taxes since a large portion government income comes from sales of land. This incentivizes the government to increase the price of land by limiting supply of it i.e. no new housing. Plus a third of their voting population are literally companies, not people, since their system includes a vote for industries. So you have a generation of young people who grew up living in a place controlled by corporations and a perception that the future will not improve. That's a really easy group to take advantage of to further political goals; in this case, independence movements or if you buy into conspiracy theories, western insurrection. But in reality even independence wouldn't help HK at all. And the only people that possibly could've helped HK were the mainland people, but due to shitty behaviour, HKers already burned that bridge a long time ago.
edit: Just wanted to mention the perception of the strength of chinese censorship is greatly exaggerated in the west. You can totally criticize the government in personal conversations and on the internet. It just gets sketch when you have a huge audience and are calling for some sort of action against the government. But yeah, where do you think the xi = pooh meme came from lol.
Chinese have such a gigantic chip on their shoulder. Everything is westerns fault or HK fault. They come in and take up education slots in top US universities and well paying US jobs while allowing zero Americans to do the reverse and that is still not good enough for them. On top of that they are so incredibly arrogant about how everything is so much better in China while living in the US and doing zero to integrate.
To be fair college educated Chinese people work a lot of benefits for America and for those they are coming over.
The economic opportunity for college educated people in China is electronically better than staying in America. The education gap between the average worker and a graduate of an American university is massive. They will be able to bypass any censorship from the government and still enjoy every economic benefit possible. These aren't the people buying concrete coffins in an empty city.
They staff a lot of teaching assistant positions eagerly, especially in the stem fields, allowing for the university system to provide a lot more of the same classes without burdening professors. Anyone who says they "take up spots" is perpetuating a racist trope and a misunderstanding on how colleges work. Yes asians are overrepresented in stem fields and colleges in general but it has nothing to do with Chinese students.
On a more perverse side for America these college students are a fertile ground for spy recruitment and creates a long term destabilizing influence on china. They need to get through liberal arts classes to get that degree and the ideas in those class's are not compatable with a dictatorial regime. Not everyone is going to be converted to western propaganda but ideas like political representation and human rights can and will be spread back to China by people that have money and will be in positions of economic authority.
You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists, but you can't expect to extrapolate examples of things to the entire nationality with authority.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
Chinese people travel over seas to Canada, wow it is sure nice amd the governmemt is not as awful, people treat them well. Then they stay.
Not so sure about this. When it comes to chinese students studying abroad, theres been a huge increase in those returning home compared to staying in foreign countries. This is an older article from 2018, but it shows the trend of chinese students electing to return home rather than stay in their study abroad countries. https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
I think a major factor people don't understand that Carnivorous Sheep doesn't really explain is that, at least for the young people of China born maybe 1985 onwards, all they've seen is growth in the economy and living standards go up. It's not like young people are idiots that are brainwashed either. It's not incredibly difficult to get a VPN in China. IIRC Huawei phones when they were still on Android literally came preinstalled with a VPN lol. Young chinese people know much more of what's going on in the west compared to western people knowing whats going in China. A lot of my friends who were overseas students initially came here with high expectations of the US being welcoming and friendly and ended up being disappointed. Imagine, you come to a foreign country to study that you have respect for. But when you get there, all you see every day in their media is how shit your country is and how bad it is, even though that doesn't line up at all with your actual lived experience, then get insulted for almost no reason just because you came from that country. That would leave a bad taste in your mouth wouldn't it? You'd probably think "man, the government was right. western people really do not like us. And at least our government is doing a good job improving our living standards" That would push you farther into just hanging out w/ people from your home country and desire to go home.
For the HK situation, they kind of fucked themselves in 1997 when they were ~20-25% of the GDP of China. HK people are notorious for being snobby and assholes to people from mainland China. They did not try to help improve the situation of the entire China, nor did they attempt to be friendly with the mainland people back in 1997. Much of the problems in HK really don't come from being governed by China, but their own system e.g. HK is such a business hub because of low taxes, but they are only able to have such low taxes since a large portion government income comes from sales of land. This incentivizes the government to increase the price of land by limiting supply of it i.e. no new housing. Plus a third of their voting population are literally companies, not people, since their system includes a vote for industries. So you have a generation of young people who grew up living in a place controlled by corporations and a perception that the future will not improve. That's a really easy group to take advantage of to further political goals; in this case, independence movements or if you buy into conspiracy theories, western insurrection. But in reality even independence wouldn't help HK at all. And the only people that possibly could've helped HK were the mainland people, but due to shitty behaviour, HKers already burned that bridge a long time ago.
edit: Just wanted to mention the perception of the strength of chinese censorship is greatly exaggerated in the west. You can totally criticize the government in personal conversations and on the internet. It just gets sketch when you have a huge audience and are calling for some sort of action against the government. But yeah, where do you think the xi = pooh meme came from lol.
Chinese have such a gigantic chip on their shoulder. Everything is westerns fault or HK fault. They come in and take up education slots in top US universities and well paying US jobs while allowing zero Americans to do the reverse and that is still not good enough for them. On top of that they are so incredibly arrogant about how everything is so much better in China while living in the US and doing zero to integrate.
This strikes me as racist. The conversations we were having before Carnivorous Sheep showed up and said "ya'll are racist af" did not strike me as racist because I didn't see anybody making or implying generalizations about Chinese people.
On May 23 2022 05:09 Sermokala wrote: You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
Chinese people travel over seas to Canada, wow it is sure nice amd the governmemt is not as awful, people treat them well. Then they stay.
Not so sure about this. When it comes to chinese students studying abroad, theres been a huge increase in those returning home compared to staying in foreign countries. This is an older article from 2018, but it shows the trend of chinese students electing to return home rather than stay in their study abroad countries. https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
I think a major factor people don't understand that Carnivorous Sheep doesn't really explain is that, at least for the young people of China born maybe 1985 onwards, all they've seen is growth in the economy and living standards go up. It's not like young people are idiots that are brainwashed either. It's not incredibly difficult to get a VPN in China. IIRC Huawei phones when they were still on Android literally came preinstalled with a VPN lol. Young chinese people know much more of what's going on in the west compared to western people knowing whats going in China. A lot of my friends who were overseas students initially came here with high expectations of the US being welcoming and friendly and ended up being disappointed. Imagine, you come to a foreign country to study that you have respect for. But when you get there, all you see every day in their media is how shit your country is and how bad it is, even though that doesn't line up at all with your actual lived experience, then get insulted for almost no reason just because you came from that country. That would leave a bad taste in your mouth wouldn't it? You'd probably think "man, the government was right. western people really do not like us. And at least our government is doing a good job improving our living standards" That would push you farther into just hanging out w/ people from your home country and desire to go home.
For the HK situation, they kind of fucked themselves in 1997 when they were ~20-25% of the GDP of China. HK people are notorious for being snobby and assholes to people from mainland China. They did not try to help improve the situation of the entire China, nor did they attempt to be friendly with the mainland people back in 1997. Much of the problems in HK really don't come from being governed by China, but their own system e.g. HK is such a business hub because of low taxes, but they are only able to have such low taxes since a large portion government income comes from sales of land. This incentivizes the government to increase the price of land by limiting supply of it i.e. no new housing. Plus a third of their voting population are literally companies, not people, since their system includes a vote for industries. So you have a generation of young people who grew up living in a place controlled by corporations and a perception that the future will not improve. That's a really easy group to take advantage of to further political goals; in this case, independence movements or if you buy into conspiracy theories, western insurrection. But in reality even independence wouldn't help HK at all. And the only people that possibly could've helped HK were the mainland people, but due to shitty behaviour, HKers already burned that bridge a long time ago.
edit: Just wanted to mention the perception of the strength of chinese censorship is greatly exaggerated in the west. You can totally criticize the government in personal conversations and on the internet. It just gets sketch when you have a huge audience and are calling for some sort of action against the government. But yeah, where do you think the xi = pooh meme came from lol.
Chinese have such a gigantic chip on their shoulder. Everything is westerns fault or HK fault. They come in and take up education slots in top US universities and well paying US jobs while allowing zero Americans to do the reverse and that is still not good enough for them. On top of that they are so incredibly arrogant about how everything is so much better in China while living in the US and doing zero to integrate.
This strikes me as racist. The conversations we were having before Carnivorous Sheep showed up and said "ya'll are racist af" did not strike me as racist because I didn't see anybody making or implying generalizations about Chinese people.
On May 23 2022 05:09 Sermokala wrote: You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists.
Also pretty uncharitable IMO.
There is nothing racist about it. I was supporting people from HK. They are the same ethnicity as people from mainland China. The guy I am responding to said the people from HK were snobby and assholes.
On May 23 2022 05:09 Sermokala wrote: To be fair college educated Chinese people work a lot of benefits for America and for those they are coming over.
The economic opportunity for college educated people in China is electronically better than staying in America. The education gap between the average worker and a graduate of an American university is massive. They will be able to bypass any censorship from the government and still enjoy every economic benefit possible. These aren't the people buying concrete coffins in an empty city.
They staff a lot of teaching assistant positions eagerly, especially in the stem fields, allowing for the university system to provide a lot more of the same classes without burdening professors. Anyone who says they "take up spots" is perpetuating a racist trope and a misunderstanding on how colleges work. Yes asians are overrepresented in stem fields and colleges in general but it has nothing to do with Chinese students.
On a more perverse side for America these college students are a fertile ground for spy recruitment and creates a long term destabilizing influence on china. They need to get through liberal arts classes to get that degree and the ideas in those class's are not compatable with a dictatorial regime. Not everyone is going to be converted to western propaganda but ideas like political representation and human rights can and will be spread back to China by people that have money and will be in positions of economic authority.
You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists, but you can't expect to extrapolate examples of things to the entire nationality with authority.
I said nothing about Asians. I said about Chinese citizens, or Chinese for short. They are allowed to study at elite American Universities and take jobs at high paying companies. If they allowed the reverse, there would be no problem. But for every slot they take, an American Citizen can't take it. And Americans don't get high paying jobs in China. Sure they will let a few underpaid English teachers in.
Trying to dismiss legit criticism against China as racism is so tiresome. No one is criticizing Taiwanese which are the same ethnicity, no one is criticizing Americans with Chinese ancestors. All the criticism has been against Chinese citizens.
China's education imports are very double-edged. Yes, there are some issues for China in importing democratic sentiment, but that's minor compared to the benefit they gain from knowledge transfer. If the process wasn't a net positive to the CCP, it wouldn't have been encouraged the way it has.
Under President Xi Jinping, the Communist Party has invested massively in science in order to make China the leading world power by 2050. The state aims to achieve this goal through "military-civilian fusion." According to this doctrine, civilian research must also serve the People's Liberation Army. Patriotism is a researcher's duty.
A joint investigation by 11 European media outlets [...] documents the importance of collaborative research with European universities to China's plans for its own advancement. [...] We discovered that German scientists have collaborated closely with colleagues affiliated with the Chinese military. Almost 350 joint studies attest to this, many of them in sensitive fields like artificial intelligence and quantum science that will decide the future of warfare.
For the next stage of the investigation, DW and its partners scrutinized the publicly available data of a number of top Chinese scientists, who [...] had been in Germany for an extended period during the past 10 years, and who were conducting research in the fields of mathematics, computer science, natural sciences and technology. With the help of the Center for Security and Emerging Technology at Georgetown University in Washington D.C., we identified 80 people.
We then analyzed 26 particularly striking profiles in detail. All of these scientists now work at elite universities that cooperate particularly closely with the military. Twenty-two of them were [...] brought back via the Thousand Talents Plan. Twelve of them had a fellowship from the Humboldt Foundation, a renowned [German] state-funded body that supports academic research.
According to the Max Planck Society, "around one-third" of all scientific management positions in China today are held by people who were trained in Germany. These include the chemist who is advancing military materials research and the engineer who is training the next generation for the defense industry.
Didi Kirsten Tatlow [...] believes Germany's great openness to visiting Chinese scientists is a serious security risk. "In English, I like to say that there's a saying: Don't bite the hand that feeds you. I would actually turn it around and say: Don't feed the hand that bites you."
In ideal world, educational exchange is a net benefit for everyone. I'm worried that world is quickly falling away behind us.
I woke up in the morning and found that I was banned for a reason called PBU, anythone knows what is that? yes, I quoted Martin Jacques' words(a repectful researcher on international relationships at Cambidge Uni) without indicating the original author, in case they criticize those opinions and I can tell them it was from a TED speech by MJ. And ridiculously they banned me before I give any replies, which comfirms their arrogance which MJ predicted years ago. Actually the whole topic is a proof of MJ's theories.
Chinese have such a gigantic chip on their shoulder. Everything is westerns fault or HK fault. They come in and take up education slots in top US universities and well paying US jobs while allowing zero Americans to do the reverse and that is still not good enough for them. On top of that they are so incredibly arrogant about how everything is so much better in China while living in the US and doing zero to integrate.
This strikes me as racist. The conversations we were having before Carnivorous Sheep showed up and said "ya'll are racist af" did not strike me as racist because I didn't see anybody making or implying generalizations about Chinese people.
On May 23 2022 05:09 Sermokala wrote: You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists.
Also pretty uncharitable IMO.
There is nothing racist about it. I was supporting people from HK. They are the same ethnicity as people from mainland China. The guy I am responding to said the people from HK were snobby and assholes.
Here's an article detailing some actions certain hong kongers have committed upon finding out you speak mandarin or are from mainland china. It's unfortunately a paid article, but I think the examples in the first few paragraphs are good enough to get some examples of why mainlanders might not be so friendly to hong kongers. Celebrating china getting invaded by Japan, who committed some of the worst atrocities against, as you said, the same ethnicity, might not be seen in such a friendly light and make you not want to support the HK protesters.
I also didn't say everything is the west or HK's fault. I was explaining how some chinese feel about the situation and adding some background info to better explain Carnivorous Sheep's posts. There are many complaints chinese people have with the chinese government. As JimmiC said, some people decide to stay in the west because they prefer it. If you wanted to hear complaints about chinese government from chinese people from china, just ask them.
For sure I could have worded my thoughts better, and if what I said was confusing, then that's on me.
On May 22 2022 09:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Ya'll are racist af and it strengthens chinese ultra nationalism in a reactionary manner
After extensive research and going through quite a few of my best sources (like we all do in here) I can refute this argument and say: No you are the racist one. [1] If you have any local Chinese news to say otherwise please post them.
Chinese have such a gigantic chip on their shoulder. Everything is westerns fault or HK fault. They come in and take up education slots in top US universities and well paying US jobs while allowing zero Americans to do the reverse and that is still not good enough for them. On top of that they are so incredibly arrogant about how everything is so much better in China while living in the US and doing zero to integrate.
This strikes me as racist. The conversations we were having before Carnivorous Sheep showed up and said "ya'll are racist af" did not strike me as racist because I didn't see anybody making or implying generalizations about Chinese people.
On May 23 2022 05:09 Sermokala wrote: You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists.
Also pretty uncharitable IMO.
There is nothing racist about it. I was supporting people from HK. They are the same ethnicity as people from mainland China. The guy I am responding to said the people from HK were snobby and assholes.
Here's an article detailing some actions certain hong kongers have committed upon finding out you speak mandarin or are from mainland china. It's unfortunately a paid article, but I think the examples in the first few paragraphs are good enough to get some examples of why mainlanders might not be so friendly to hong kongers. Celebrating china getting invaded by Japan, who committed some of the worst atrocities against, as you said, the same ethnicity, might not be seen in such a friendly light and make you not want to support the HK protesters.
I also didn't say everything is the west or HK's fault. I was explaining how some chinese feel about the situation and adding some background info to better explain Carnivorous Sheep's posts. There are many complaints chinese people have with the chinese government. As JimmiC said, some people decide to stay in the west because they prefer it. If you wanted to hear complaints about chinese government from chinese people from china, just ask them.
For sure I could have worded my thoughts better, and if what I said was confusing, then that's on me.
China is violently repressing the people of Hong Kong but that is ok because a paywalled article says some Hong Kongers were rude. Keep carrying that facist water.
On May 20 2022 00:45 fakovski wrote: Now I understand your logic, your logic is perfect and invincible IF XI is a potential Hitler!
I don't think you understand my logic.
On May 20 2022 00:45 fakovski wrote: When I was abroad I was given leaflets of so-called "secret documents of CCP", 20 years later I still can remember a wide-spread article called"the 9 sins of CCP", but do you know that it was on some Taiwan-sponsored papers.
I don't know what you are refering to. I'm talking about this en.wikipedia.org
On May 20 2022 00:45 fakovski wrote: Xi was born in a communist family, so its natural for him to fight for communism, so what's the wrong with his oath? He is fighting for communism doesn't mean he will bring people to a new revolution.
Yeah? That's how it is? Why don't you ask his sister what she thinks of the CCP? I'm talking about the one who commited suicide. Also, i mentioned that because of the word ''fight''.
On May 20 2022 00:45 fakovski wrote: And for the "It's no secret that the CCP condemns ,,western'' values like freedom of speech/press or universal values of human rights" thing, I don't know how do you come this far, in your description CCP sounds quite evil. I don't deny that in the 1960-70s the "culture revolution" caused great starvation and millions death. It was a total tragic and the biggest mistake of MAO, but the CCP learned from her faults and start an openling policy shortly after. China today is more like a capitalism society, IF the CCP is still what she is in the 1950s, your worring sounds more reasonable .
Things have changed, so should be the minds of people.
I don't agree with you in your assessment the CCP learned from its faults. Good example and something that was talked about here before is the reeducation and detention of millions of Uyghurs. If you don't think this is real I certainly won't convince you. But this is a fact. There is overwhelming evidence even though the chinese state tries hard to keep it under the rug.
On May 20 2022 00:45 fakovski wrote: btw I seem to be the only chinese in this topic, I don't have so much energy and interest to debate with everyone, especially when these debates are endless and usually makeno changes in real world.
That I totally understand and I agree with you Have a good one :>
Chinese have such a gigantic chip on their shoulder. Everything is westerns fault or HK fault. They come in and take up education slots in top US universities and well paying US jobs while allowing zero Americans to do the reverse and that is still not good enough for them. On top of that they are so incredibly arrogant about how everything is so much better in China while living in the US and doing zero to integrate.
This strikes me as racist. The conversations we were having before Carnivorous Sheep showed up and said "ya'll are racist af" did not strike me as racist because I didn't see anybody making or implying generalizations about Chinese people.
On May 23 2022 05:09 Sermokala wrote: You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists.
Also pretty uncharitable IMO.
There is nothing racist about it. I was supporting people from HK. They are the same ethnicity as people from mainland China. The guy I am responding to said the people from HK were snobby and assholes.
Here's an article detailing some actions certain hong kongers have committed upon finding out you speak mandarin or are from mainland china. It's unfortunately a paid article, but I think the examples in the first few paragraphs are good enough to get some examples of why mainlanders might not be so friendly to hong kongers. Celebrating china getting invaded by Japan, who committed some of the worst atrocities against, as you said, the same ethnicity, might not be seen in such a friendly light and make you not want to support the HK protesters.
I also didn't say everything is the west or HK's fault. I was explaining how some chinese feel about the situation and adding some background info to better explain Carnivorous Sheep's posts. There are many complaints chinese people have with the chinese government. As JimmiC said, some people decide to stay in the west because they prefer it. If you wanted to hear complaints about chinese government from chinese people from china, just ask them.
For sure I could have worded my thoughts better, and if what I said was confusing, then that's on me.
China is violently repressing the people of Hong Kong but that is ok because a paywalled article says some Hong Kongers were rude. Keep carrying that facist water.
Look, having lived in Hong Kong for a long time, it is actually true that many Hong Kongers hate the Chinese and call them all sorts of bad name. One popular one was to call them locusts, as in they sweep in with overwhelming numbers and take everything. That was used in particular to refer to the vast numbers of Chinese tourists before Covid happened.
There are also Chinese netizens who call Hong Kongers ungrateful brats that need a lesson beaten into them. The mutual disrespect is real here.
Chinese have such a gigantic chip on their shoulder. Everything is westerns fault or HK fault. They come in and take up education slots in top US universities and well paying US jobs while allowing zero Americans to do the reverse and that is still not good enough for them. On top of that they are so incredibly arrogant about how everything is so much better in China while living in the US and doing zero to integrate.
This strikes me as racist. The conversations we were having before Carnivorous Sheep showed up and said "ya'll are racist af" did not strike me as racist because I didn't see anybody making or implying generalizations about Chinese people.
On May 23 2022 05:09 Sermokala wrote: You can criticize a lot of stuff about Chinese people, like their tourists.
Also pretty uncharitable IMO.
There is nothing racist about it. I was supporting people from HK. They are the same ethnicity as people from mainland China. The guy I am responding to said the people from HK were snobby and assholes.
Here's an article detailing some actions certain hong kongers have committed upon finding out you speak mandarin or are from mainland china. It's unfortunately a paid article, but I think the examples in the first few paragraphs are good enough to get some examples of why mainlanders might not be so friendly to hong kongers. Celebrating china getting invaded by Japan, who committed some of the worst atrocities against, as you said, the same ethnicity, might not be seen in such a friendly light and make you not want to support the HK protesters.
I also didn't say everything is the west or HK's fault. I was explaining how some chinese feel about the situation and adding some background info to better explain Carnivorous Sheep's posts. There are many complaints chinese people have with the chinese government. As JimmiC said, some people decide to stay in the west because they prefer it. If you wanted to hear complaints about chinese government from chinese people from china, just ask them.
For sure I could have worded my thoughts better, and if what I said was confusing, then that's on me.
China is violently repressing the people of Hong Kong but that is ok because a paywalled article says some Hong Kongers were rude. Keep carrying that facist water.
Look, having lived in Hong Kong for a long time, it is actually true that many Hong Kongers hate the Chinese and call them all sorts of bad name. One popular one was to call them locusts, as in they sweep in with overwhelming numbers and take everything. That was used in particular to refer to the vast numbers of Chinese tourists before Covid happened.
There are also Chinese netizens who call Hong Kongers ungrateful brats that need a lesson beaten into them. The mutual disrespect is real here.
But only one of them is living under the rule of the other.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
Chinese people travel over seas to Canada, wow it is sure nice amd the governmemt is not as awful, people treat them well. Then they stay.
Not so sure about this. When it comes to chinese students studying abroad, theres been a huge increase in those returning home compared to staying in foreign countries. This is an older article from 2018, but it shows the trend of chinese students electing to return home rather than stay in their study abroad countries. https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
I think a major factor people don't understand that Carnivorous Sheep doesn't really explain is that, at least for the young people of China born maybe 1985 onwards, all they've seen is growth in the economy and living standards go up. It's not like young people are idiots that are brainwashed either. It's not incredibly difficult to get a VPN in China. IIRC Huawei phones when they were still on Android literally came preinstalled with a VPN lol. Young chinese people know much more of what's going on in the west compared to western people knowing whats going in China. A lot of my friends who were overseas students initially came here with high expectations of the US being welcoming and friendly and ended up being disappointed. Imagine, you come to a foreign country to study that you have respect for. But when you get there, all you see every day in their media is how shit your country is and how bad it is, even though that doesn't line up at all with your actual lived experience, then get insulted for almost no reason just because you came from that country. That would leave a bad taste in your mouth wouldn't it? You'd probably think "man, the government was right. western people really do not like us. And at least our government is doing a good job improving our living standards" That would push you farther into just hanging out w/ people from your home country and desire to go home.
For the HK situation, they kind of fucked themselves in 1997 when they were ~20-25% of the GDP of China. HK people are notorious for being snobby and assholes to people from mainland China. They did not try to help improve the situation of the entire China, nor did they attempt to be friendly with the mainland people back in 1997. Much of the problems in HK really don't come from being governed by China, but their own system e.g. HK is such a business hub because of low taxes, but they are only able to have such low taxes since a large portion government income comes from sales of land. This incentivizes the government to increase the price of land by limiting supply of it i.e. no new housing. Plus a third of their voting population are literally companies, not people, since their system includes a vote for industries. So you have a generation of young people who grew up living in a place controlled by corporations and a perception that the future will not improve. That's a really easy group to take advantage of to further political goals; in this case, independence movements or if you buy into conspiracy theories, western insurrection. But in reality even independence wouldn't help HK at all. And the only people that possibly could've helped HK were the mainland people, but due to shitty behaviour, HKers already burned that bridge a long time ago.
edit: Just wanted to mention the perception of the strength of chinese censorship is greatly exaggerated in the west. You can totally criticize the government in personal conversations and on the internet. It just gets sketch when you have a huge audience and are calling for some sort of action against the government. But yeah, where do you think the xi = pooh meme came from lol.
People want to think of propaganda as a really shocking and powerful force, when it's more of a insidious force, creeping in when you're not paying attention, applying pressure at all point. Someone who grew up in that kind of environnement will have a view of the world radically different from someone who didn't. It's kind of like watching a serie from start to begin opposed to just popping in for 5min 24episodes in. You don't get it, it looks stupid and cringe, but to the watcher it makes perfect sense as the world built itself upon lies.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
Chinese people travel over seas to Canada, wow it is sure nice amd the governmemt is not as awful, people treat them well. Then they stay.
Not so sure about this. When it comes to chinese students studying abroad, theres been a huge increase in those returning home compared to staying in foreign countries. This is an older article from 2018, but it shows the trend of chinese students electing to return home rather than stay in their study abroad countries. https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
I think a major factor people don't understand that Carnivorous Sheep doesn't really explain is that, at least for the young people of China born maybe 1985 onwards, all they've seen is growth in the economy and living standards go up. It's not like young people are idiots that are brainwashed either. It's not incredibly difficult to get a VPN in China. IIRC Huawei phones when they were still on Android literally came preinstalled with a VPN lol. Young chinese people know much more of what's going on in the west compared to western people knowing whats going in China. A lot of my friends who were overseas students initially came here with high expectations of the US being welcoming and friendly and ended up being disappointed. Imagine, you come to a foreign country to study that you have respect for. But when you get there, all you see every day in their media is how shit your country is and how bad it is, even though that doesn't line up at all with your actual lived experience, then get insulted for almost no reason just because you came from that country. That would leave a bad taste in your mouth wouldn't it? You'd probably think "man, the government was right. western people really do not like us. And at least our government is doing a good job improving our living standards" That would push you farther into just hanging out w/ people from your home country and desire to go home.
For the HK situation, they kind of fucked themselves in 1997 when they were ~20-25% of the GDP of China. HK people are notorious for being snobby and assholes to people from mainland China. They did not try to help improve the situation of the entire China, nor did they attempt to be friendly with the mainland people back in 1997. Much of the problems in HK really don't come from being governed by China, but their own system e.g. HK is such a business hub because of low taxes, but they are only able to have such low taxes since a large portion government income comes from sales of land. This incentivizes the government to increase the price of land by limiting supply of it i.e. no new housing. Plus a third of their voting population are literally companies, not people, since their system includes a vote for industries. So you have a generation of young people who grew up living in a place controlled by corporations and a perception that the future will not improve. That's a really easy group to take advantage of to further political goals; in this case, independence movements or if you buy into conspiracy theories, western insurrection. But in reality even independence wouldn't help HK at all. And the only people that possibly could've helped HK were the mainland people, but due to shitty behaviour, HKers already burned that bridge a long time ago.
edit: Just wanted to mention the perception of the strength of chinese censorship is greatly exaggerated in the west. You can totally criticize the government in personal conversations and on the internet. It just gets sketch when you have a huge audience and are calling for some sort of action against the government. But yeah, where do you think the xi = pooh meme came from lol.
1. Funny how you are blaming the "HK government" and the HK system - which is nothing more than a puppet regime. China/CCP laid out a framework for Hong Kong - "one country two system" (Proposed by Deng XiaoPing as a "unique" idea) with eventualy universal suffrage for the governer. They did not really honour this promise and is interefering with the everyday politics, restricting HK ppl's freedom etc... Jiang Zemin also said “Well water [Hong Kong] does not mix with river water [the Mainland]”
2. Most of the hate of the Hong Kong people is directed against the CCP. In fact a lot of them or their parents/grandparents fled the CCP - obviously some fled the war with Japan/the civil war - most still have relatives back home. You get some feeling of anti-Chinese people but it is by no means a majority. Some of it could be behaviour issues/
Hong Kong people do want to improve mainland China - a year after Tiananmen Square protests/masscare more than 150,000 people went to the memorial. You can also look at the amount of fund raised during flooding/earthquakes. A lot of HK people are quite optimistic after the handover initially....
3. Not many people (if any) wanted HK independence - they are not stupid afterall. What they want is to have their freedom/rights - which has been promised in the treaty but never fulfilled.
1. Funny how you are blaming the "HK government" and the HK system - which is nothing more than a puppet regime. China/CCP laid out a framework for Hong Kong - "one country two system" (Proposed by Deng XiaoPing as a "unique" idea) with eventualy universal suffrage for the governer. They did not really honour this promise and is interefering with the everyday politics, restricting HK ppl's freedom etc... Jiang Zemin also said “Well water [Hong Kong] does not mix with river water [the Mainland]”
2. Most of the hate of the Hong Kong people is directed against the CCP. In fact a lot of them or their parents/grandparents fled the CCP - obviously some fled the war with Japan/the civil war - most still have relatives back home. You get some feeling of anti-Chinese people but it is by no means a majority. Some of it could be behaviour issues/
Hong Kong people do want to improve mainland China - a year after Tiananmen Square protests/masscare more than 150,000 people went to the memorial. You can also look at the amount of fund raised during flooding/earthquakes. A lot of HK people are quite optimistic after the handover initially....
3. Not many people (if any) wanted HK independence - they are not stupid afterall. What they want is to have their freedom/rights - which has been promised in the treaty but never fulfilled.
1. I actually generally agree with your first point. To build upon it, HK people have consistently been fucked politically since 1841. The British agreed during the handover with the chinese proposal, and also benefited from the created government through the industry vote with many businesses leveraging their voting power in the functional constituencies. IIRC a lot of government owned land was sold to British companies right before the 1997 handover. That's in addition to pre-1970s corruption reforms preferential treatment to British businesses.
2. I do not agree that most hong kong people hate is directed against the CCP. Obviously it varies person to person, but from my own personal experience and online, young people from hong kong say the wildest shit about people from the mainland without even mentioning the government e.g. someone mentioned higher up in the thread about calling mainlanders locusts. When I went to the hong kong I was told by a drunk dude to "go home locust," for speaking mandarin. I'm not even from the mainland. I also find theres an age gap. Older people, I would say, are less racist against mainlanders compared to younger people and more in line with what you said. They mainly don't like the CCP but generally consider themselves chinese. It's not so simple to say "oh hong kong people only hate the chinese government," because it's not at all true. I think the hate is much more onesided of hong kong people not liking mainlanders than the other way around. Much of mainland hate is in response to getting hate from hong kong, and mainly deal with politics rather than the actual hong kong people. Unfortunately from my own experience, the same can't really be said for people I've met from hong kong. Granted, I could just be unlucky to meet those certain asshole people.
3. In general, I agree with your point here. Most normal (non extreme) people aren't really looking for independence, but their promised rights for at least 50 years as promised. However, I want to add, even the protests weren't universally loved in hong kong. A decent amount of people were annoyed by them because of blocking streets to get to work and general violence interrupting business. This is coming from the POV of small business owners e.g. restaurant owners and shop owners. Obviously the case could be made if China wasn't increasing their reach in HK, there wouldn't be protests therefore the interruptions wouldn't have happened. But I feel that additional POVs on the issue are useful to look at.
edit: probably gonna be my last post in this thread. political debates on internet forums are generally unproductive, and my main reason of posting was to clarify carnivorous sheep's posts about reactions to these types of threads from chinese people.
On May 22 2022 02:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: chinese govt: the West are evil colonialists who want to treat us like they did africa and latin america chinese ppl: no way chinese people go overseas / read english forums and sees threads like this chinese ppl: damn, xi was right. all hail ccp
Chinese people travel over seas to Canada, wow it is sure nice amd the governmemt is not as awful, people treat them well. Then they stay.
Not so sure about this. When it comes to chinese students studying abroad, theres been a huge increase in those returning home compared to staying in foreign countries. This is an older article from 2018, but it shows the trend of chinese students electing to return home rather than stay in their study abroad countries. https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home-after-studying-abroad/
I think a major factor people don't understand that Carnivorous Sheep doesn't really explain is that, at least for the young people of China born maybe 1985 onwards, all they've seen is growth in the economy and living standards go up. It's not like young people are idiots that are brainwashed either. It's not incredibly difficult to get a VPN in China. IIRC Huawei phones when they were still on Android literally came preinstalled with a VPN lol. Young chinese people know much more of what's going on in the west compared to western people knowing whats going in China. A lot of my friends who were overseas students initially came here with high expectations of the US being welcoming and friendly and ended up being disappointed. Imagine, you come to a foreign country to study that you have respect for. But when you get there, all you see every day in their media is how shit your country is and how bad it is, even though that doesn't line up at all with your actual lived experience, then get insulted for almost no reason just because you came from that country. That would leave a bad taste in your mouth wouldn't it? You'd probably think "man, the government was right. western people really do not like us. And at least our government is doing a good job improving our living standards" That would push you farther into just hanging out w/ people from your home country and desire to go home.
For the HK situation, they kind of fucked themselves in 1997 when they were ~20-25% of the GDP of China. HK people are notorious for being snobby and assholes to people from mainland China. They did not try to help improve the situation of the entire China, nor did they attempt to be friendly with the mainland people back in 1997. Much of the problems in HK really don't come from being governed by China, but their own system e.g. HK is such a business hub because of low taxes, but they are only able to have such low taxes since a large portion government income comes from sales of land. This incentivizes the government to increase the price of land by limiting supply of it i.e. no new housing. Plus a third of their voting population are literally companies, not people, since their system includes a vote for industries. So you have a generation of young people who grew up living in a place controlled by corporations and a perception that the future will not improve. That's a really easy group to take advantage of to further political goals; in this case, independence movements or if you buy into conspiracy theories, western insurrection. But in reality even independence wouldn't help HK at all. And the only people that possibly could've helped HK were the mainland people, but due to shitty behaviour, HKers already burned that bridge a long time ago.
edit: Just wanted to mention the perception of the strength of chinese censorship is greatly exaggerated in the west. You can totally criticize the government in personal conversations and on the internet. It just gets sketch when you have a huge audience and are calling for some sort of action against the government. But yeah, where do you think the xi = pooh meme came from lol.
1. Funny how you are blaming the "HK government" and the HK system - which is nothing more than a puppet regime. China/CCP laid out a framework for Hong Kong - "one country two system" (Proposed by Deng XiaoPing as a "unique" idea) with eventualy universal suffrage for the governer. They did not really honour this promise and is interefering with the everyday politics, restricting HK ppl's freedom etc... Jiang Zemin also said “Well water [Hong Kong] does not mix with river water [the Mainland]”
2. Most of the hate of the Hong Kong people is directed against the CCP. In fact a lot of them or their parents/grandparents fled the CCP - obviously some fled the war with Japan/the civil war - most still have relatives back home. You get some feeling of anti-Chinese people but it is by no means a majority. Some of it could be behaviour issues/
Hong Kong people do want to improve mainland China - a year after Tiananmen Square protests/masscare more than 150,000 people went to the memorial. You can also look at the amount of fund raised during flooding/earthquakes. A lot of HK people are quite optimistic after the handover initially....
3. Not many people (if any) wanted HK independence - they are not stupid afterall. What they want is to have their freedom/rights - which has been promised in the treaty but never fulfilled.
1. That is true and is one of the biggest factors causing the divide.
2. That might be true for the older generation but there is genuine hate against people from mainland China among the younger generation. Of course the source of this is political, they are being seen as invaders from a different country, not as countrymen.
3. That was true until the actions of China fanned the flames. Hong Kong independence was a fringe issue until the Chinese government kept saying it was a real thing, then because of that it actually became a real issue. Talk about self fulfilling prophesies.
The BBC published a report based on data hacked from Xinjiang regarding Uyghur detention. I think it really highlights some of the worst aspects of the CCP rule: use of digital surveillance, bullshit claims used for detention (e.g., growing a beard, listening to muslim lectures), "re-education camps", mass internment.
Also this thread should probably be renamed to "The China Politics Thread" or something, "The Chinese Conundrum" is a bit prejudiced (not exactly the word I'm looking for but can't find it atm).
On May 24 2022 14:51 emperorchampion wrote: Also this thread should probably be renamed to "The China Politics Thread" or something, "The Chinese Conundrum" is a bit prejudiced (not exactly the word I'm looking for but can't find it atm).
I agree. "The Chinese Conumdrum" is pretty much "The Chinese Question", which implies that there is a vague problem and this problem needs to be solved. True as it may be, it assumes an adversarial viewpoint to begin with, and I can't see good discussion coming from that.
On May 24 2022 14:49 emperorchampion wrote: The BBC published a report based on data hacked from Xinjiang regarding Uyghur detention. I think it really highlights some of the worst aspects of the CCP rule: use of digital surveillance, bullshit claims used for detention (e.g., growing a beard, listening to muslim lectures), "re-education camps", mass internment.
The only Chinese who spoke objectively was banned. It's really difficult to communicate objectively with each other. As long as you criticize the news of China, you think it is right. And did not question whether those are false news or deliberately discredit China's news. As long as there is no news criticizing the Chinese government, you all look at it with suspicion. If you want to hear the views of Chinese people from China, what he said is the truth.
If you want to understand Xinjiang, you can understand Xinjiang only after living in Xinjiang for a period of time. If the BBC comes to China to interview and deliberately reports negative news or false news, how do you know what is true? You can also say how I know what they reported is false, and I can't prove it to you. I'm just an ordinary person living in China. You want to know about China, and I'm happy to share it with you. But it's hard for me to argue with you on various issues in China. I'm not a politician. I can only say that a lot of your information is wrong.
It's funny that if you ask ten Chinese people, nine Chinese people will say that the Chinese government is too good to the people of Xinjiang. For the same test, Xinjiang people only need lower scores. China has family planning policies, and people in Xinjiang do not need to abide by these policies. If Xinjiang people commit a crime, they will receive very low punishment. If you've really been to China, you can ask any Chinese.
On May 25 2022 17:35 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The only Chinese who spoke objectively was banned. It's really difficult to communicate objectively with each other. As long as you criticize the news of China, you think it is right. And did not question whether those are false news or deliberately discredit China's news. As long as there is no news criticizing the Chinese government, you all look at it with suspicion. If you want to hear the views of Chinese people from China, what he said is the truth.
I'm not sure that the banned accounts were objective (there were a few new accounts banned around the same time for the same reason). (At least for me a clarification on what "PBU" means would be useful.) A decent portion of the BBC report that I linked is related to validation of the data, e.g., they had an AI specialist examine if the images were artificially generated (they concluded they are genuine) and correlated some of the images with those available of the detention center.
On May 25 2022 17:45 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: If you want to understand Xinjiang, you can understand Xinjiang only after living in Xinjiang for a period of time. If the BBC comes to China to interview and deliberately reports negative news or false news, how do you know what is true? You can also say how I know what they reported is false, and I can't prove it to you. I'm just an ordinary person living in China. You want to know about China, and I'm happy to share it with you. But it's hard for me to argue with you on various issues in China. I'm not a politician. I can only say that a lot of your information is wrong.
"Negative" things happen. That there may be "positive" things happening does not mean that there cannot be negative things also. It is important to report the negative things so that they can be fixed. Ignoring negative things does not fix them and does not make them go away.
I would be happy to hear about what information regarding what was reported by the BBC / other organizations regarding the leaked data is wrong since you know that it is wrong.
On May 25 2022 17:52 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: It's funny that if you ask ten Chinese people, nine Chinese people will say that the Chinese government is too good to the people of Xinjiang. For the same test, Xinjiang people only need lower scores. China has family planning policies, and people in Xinjiang do not need to abide by these policies. If Xinjiang people commit a crime, they will receive very low punishment. If you've really been to China, you can ask any Chinese.
Lower test scores and lesser criminal punishment do not make up for the current and likely past (I'm not an expert on the history of Xinjiang) and future generations of state-imposed abuse. The people that are saying the government are too good don't understand the concept of equity: marginalized people require additional support and resources. Especially when issues are caused by outside intervention (i.e., it's understandable if test scores are lower when you are in extremely adverse situation such as seems to be the case in Xinjiang). The people that are saying the government are too good to the people of Xinjiang are likely ignorant (people like this exist all over the world).
On May 24 2022 14:51 emperorchampion wrote: Also this thread should probably be renamed to "The China Politics Thread" or something, "The Chinese Conundrum" is a bit prejudiced (not exactly the word I'm looking for but can't find it atm).
I agree. "The Chinese Conumdrum" is pretty much "The Chinese Question", which implies that there is a vague problem and this problem needs to be solved. True as it may be, it assumes an adversarial viewpoint to begin with, and I can't see good discussion coming from that.
Since you've read the articles and watched the videos can you give a brief summary of the general conclusions? edit: with respect to the leaked data about Xinjiang.
On May 25 2022 17:52 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: It's funny that if you ask ten Chinese people, nine Chinese people will say that the Chinese government is too good to the people of Xinjiang. For the same test, Xinjiang people only need lower scores. China has family planning policies, and people in Xinjiang do not need to abide by these policies. If Xinjiang people commit a crime, they will receive very low punishment. If you've really been to China, you can ask any Chinese.
The people doing the podcast I have linked up above are not some random guys that don't like China. They have lived in China for 15+ years, their wives are Chinese and they have plenty of friends and family there. Before they started doing all those demystifying videos and podcasts they did a lot of materials on China itself as they have traveled across it on their bikes, visiting small towns and villages and plenty of places outside your typical tourist locations. You could say that they have seen more of China than most Chinese people will in their lives. They also have a unique perspective, one being South African and the other American, of not being susceptible to CCP propaganda and thus seeing what's going on in there more clearly.
They're not against China, they actually love China, but they're making all those videos in hopes that someday in the future the Chinese people will be able to move forward when CCP will stop holding them back.
On May 25 2022 17:45 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: If you want to understand Xinjiang, you can understand Xinjiang only after living in Xinjiang for a period of time. If the BBC comes to China to interview and deliberately reports negative news or false news, how do you know what is true? You can also say how I know what they reported is false, and I can't prove it to you. I'm just an ordinary person living in China.
You state that you cannot prove that the information contained in this BBC report is false, yet you clearly believe that it is false. How did you come by that belief? Do you assume that any information presented by the BBC that isn’t favorable to China is false? Or do you have other sources of information on this matter?
You said nine out of ten Chinese people think Uyghur people in Xinjiang are too well treated. I’m not sure I believe that, but assuming it’s true, does that contradict the information in the BBC story? Is the perception that religious freedom is respected, due process is followed, surveillance is not invasive, and everybody gets a fair trial? Or is the perception that religious freedom is not respected, due process is not followed, surveillance is invasive, and not everybody gets a trial, but none of that matters if you’re combating terrorism?
Also, to what degree is public opinion in China an accurate guide to the Uyghur experience? Is the public educated in this matter, or ignorant? Again, what are the trustworthy sources if you don’t trust the BBC/CNN/etc.?
Is this topic on the radar in Chinese public discourse?
Do you know what the Chinese government’s rhetoric is like on this topic? I ask because one can often gain information from a party’s stated position even if one suspends judgment on their credibility.
I am trying to understand the headspace of someone who considers the BBC story to be full of lies, which, if you and fakovski are correct, is most Chinese people.
On May 25 2022 17:45 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: If you want to understand Xinjiang, you can understand Xinjiang only after living in Xinjiang for a period of time. If the BBC comes to China to interview and deliberately reports negative news or false news, how do you know what is true? You can also say how I know what they reported is false, and I can't prove it to you. I'm just an ordinary person living in China. You want to know about China, and I'm happy to share it with you. But it's hard for me to argue with you on various issues in China. I'm not a politician. I can only say that a lot of your information is wrong.
These aren't arguments or even attempts to provide comment. You are making authoritative statements while also saying you have no authority.
Line 1 is a made-up argument no one is having. No one wants to live in a region where they believe that concentration camps are operating in to reprogram people the government doesn't like. Thats a silly ask to make for people.
Line 2 is assuming motivation, if you take that nonsupported assumption out its a question posed to you that I would ask.
Line 3 basically is you saying that you don't know if the stuff BBC posted is false or not and you explaining why you shouldn't be believed on why its false or not because you have no authority or credibility in your own opinion
Line 4 is what we are asking for and what you are providing already.
Line 5 is really insidious. You are saying you can't argue on issues in China because you're not apart of the CCP and therefore you can only belive that negative information about china is false because the CCP tells you its false. Are you admitting that the CCP is the one that decides what is true and not for you?
To be honest, I don't want to defend anything. It takes time to consult a lot of information. I don't have so much time to do it. A Chinese has done it once before。 I'm not good at nitpicking to find loopholes。 I just want to share the views of ordinary Chinese, if you are interested in this. To tell you the truth, most of the Chinese people's congresses don't care or pay attention to Xinjiang. After all, it's too far away from us. I only have a few friends living in Xinjiang. You want to know what ordinary people think of Xinjiang, that is, China has decades of preferential policies for Xinjiang and terrorist activities in Xinjiang. If you want to ask other questions, I'll answer them as much as I can.
On May 26 2022 10:27 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: To be honest, I don't want to defend anything. It takes time to consult a lot of information. I don't have so much time to do it. A Chinese has done it once before。 I'm not good at nitpicking to find loopholes。 I just want to share the views of ordinary Chinese, if you are interested in this. To tell you the truth, most of the Chinese people's congresses don't care or pay attention to Xinjiang. After all, it's too far away from us. I only have a few friends living in Xinjiang. You want to know what ordinary people think of Xinjiang, that is, China has decades of preferential policies for Xinjiang and terrorist activities in Xinjiang. If you want to ask other questions, I'll answer them as much as I can.
Fair enough. Is it fair to say that people you interact with just don’t really care about the situation there?
Xinjiang is 3000-4000 kilometers away from most parts of China. In addition to deliberately searching, ordinary Chinese people will not check the situation in Xinjiang. Xinjiang in the eyes of ordinary Chinese people has several characteristics： 1，Xinjiang people are the people with the highest status in China. They enjoy too many preferential policies in all aspects 2，Xinjiang is economically underdeveloped. It is a place with beautiful scenery and suitable for tourism 3，There are many delicious foods in Xinjiang, including mutton, roast fish, fruit and cotton. 4，There are separatist forces and terrorists in Xinjiang, but there have been no major terrorist incidents in recent years. 5，The issue of Xinjiang is constantly attacked by politicians from various countries, which is the reason why there are more Chinese News in Xinjiang, otherwise it is not reported by the news 6，People from other regions will be promoted after working in Xinjiang for a few years. This is the reason why many people are attracted to Xinjiang (not everyone can go and need to be selected). Two of my classmates have worked in Xinjiang for three years. We call it supporting Xinjiang.
Finally, once again, I have no intention to defend anything, but to objectively share the lives and views of ordinary Chinese people.
On May 26 2022 12:57 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: Xinjiang is 3000-4000 kilometers away from most parts of China. In addition to deliberately searching, ordinary Chinese people will not check the situation in Xinjiang. Xinjiang in the eyes of ordinary Chinese people has several characteristics： 1，Xinjiang people are the people with the highest status in China. They enjoy too many preferential policies in all aspects 2，Xinjiang is economically underdeveloped. It is a place with beautiful scenery and suitable for tourism 3，There are many delicious foods in Xinjiang, including mutton, roast fish, fruit and cotton. 4，There are separatist forces and terrorists in Xinjiang, but there have been no major terrorist incidents in recent years. 5，The issue of Xinjiang is constantly attacked by politicians from various countries, which is the reason why there are more Chinese News in Xinjiang, otherwise it is not reported by the news 6，People from other regions will be promoted after working in Xinjiang for a few years. This is the reason why many people are attracted to Xinjiang (not everyone can go and need to be selected). Two of my classmates have worked in Xinjiang for three years. We call it supporting Xinjiang.
Finally, once again, I have no intention to defend anything, but to objectively share the lives and views of ordinary Chinese people.
There are some reports coming in that China is preparing to move to war economy setting and is planning some big operation around the July-October period. Might be Taiwan, might be Russia...
There is no value in invading Taiwan. The government has said they will destroy the chip plants before surrendering and they have spent decades and billions of dollars preparing for the invasion. The us doesn't need to move into the range of any of China's ships when it can just rally their aircraft carrier battle groups at pearl harbor and the indian sea to end the Chinese states ability to obtain food and oil.
They wouldn't need to shift anything to invade Russia when their entire military is tied up in the west. Sure it would take them a while but they could match to the artic just in time to freeze to death in the winter.
India is across a massive mountain range with an equally large army. Vietnam has been tried a few times over the years for no gain. Thailand has maybe a few roads now through the golden triangle but that's equally thick jungle. Supplying an army over tibet would be... A choice but unless they want to invade the stans when Russia is distracted there isn't much in that direction.
So Taiwan Japan and South Korea? I mean if they want to server ties to their food supply their oil supply and their economy that's their decision to make.
China doesn't think short term of a war like that. They might be seeing some horrific numbers coming in for their economy but they wouldn't lash out when they have nothing to even think of gaining.
There is no value in invading Taiwan. when they have nothing to even think of gaining.
Thats the western way of thinking about war. We have to gain something economically by going to war. But countries go to war for other reasons as well,for example ideological reasons.
Seems unlikely to me that China would make a move on Taiwan. There is a window of opportunity but i do think they have other priorities for now and time is more or less on their side. They could do it though and there is nothing the US would do to stop them. If China would stop all exports to the US (which i would guess is likely in such a situation) then you could end up with tripple digit inflation in the US.
The world would get triple digit inflation when 70% of the world's chip supply suddenly drops off the market. Sure there are those stories about "secret chip machinery hidden in the swiss mountains in case of war" but even India on its own can plant a few ships in the indian ocean to "suggest" tankers to stop going east. We know Chinese ships don't have the range to even get that far into the Indian ocean and forget pearl harbor being the edge of the world for anyone the us deems it to be. China hasn't had enough food to feed itself for a long time and its hard to see how any sort of distribution happens without gas refined in the middle east.
But sure tell me the ideological reasons on how a hostile Taiwan with no chips to give is worth sacrificing 100's of millions of lives and the end of the Chinese economy. I would genuinely want to understand china more if that ideology exists.
That's why some people analyzing the situation assume China will move towards Russia. They've been conducting large scale military drills in the northeast since February. Vladivostok is a juicy target and with Russia being occupied in the west and having sent most of its military and equipment there I guess China wouldn't have much trouble securing large chunks of land, perhaps even getting as far as the Bearing Sea and Arctic Ocean, basically cutting out about a third of Russian territory with little resistance.
On June 04 2022 09:10 Manit0u wrote: There are some reports coming in that China is preparing to move to war economy setting and is planning some big operation around the July-October period. Might be Taiwan, might be Russia...
Did anyone else stumble upon those rumors?
Where do you see this? Also, how on earth could they do anything to Russia beyond soft power and economic bullying?
On June 06 2022 05:46 JimmiC wrote: The Russia one I'm not so sure on. But that would totally turn the world upside down because they pretty much vote lock step as it tends to go democracies voting one way and dictatorships the other. Not to mention that Russia still has nukes and would likely use them over losing that much territory.
If I had to bet, they would, but only to a point that wouldn't hurt the western countries that much. I do not think they would be to the level of Russian ones. It would also probably cause the fall of Putin. I wonder if China would then become the third country to try to occupy Afghanistan.
In the end I think the Chinese leadership is too shrewd and will just get themselves way ahead by getting dirt cheap enery from Russia and likely some other deals with them to increase their power and profile.
I agree with your points about Russia, it's both China's ally as well as dangerous if attacked.
I could see them attacking a fairly weak neutral neighbor like Afghanistan, but supposedly the Chinese gov has very good relationships with the Taliban, so I don't really think that that's as interesting for them.
I still think the most likely case is Taiwan. The sanctions against China will never reach the same severity as the ones against Russia because the western economy is heavily dependent on Chinese products, a large scale trade war would ruin our economies almost as much as the Chinese. Considering that inflation in many western countries is already high due to the war in Ukraine I just don't see it happening. Secondly I strongly doubt that the USA will go into a direct military confrontation with China if they can avoid it and I don't think Taiwan is worth risking a nuclear war for (Japan or SK might). Third the CCP has strong ideological reasons to attack Taiwan, China is extremely nationalist and has expressed that they will stop at nothing to achieve the "unification" of China. Conquering Taiwan is not just a question of geopolitical usage but also prestige for the Chinese government, especially because Taiwan presents an alternative to their totalitarian regime.
On June 06 2022 12:40 Archeon wrote: Conquering Taiwan is not just a question of geopolitical usage but also prestige for the Chinese government, especially because Taiwan presents an alternative to their totalitarian regime.
Well, Taiwan is their OG government, isn't it? It's where they fled during the communist revolution, taking as many cultural heritage with them as they could since CCP wanted to destroy a lot of their original culture. It's not just a matter of unification, for them it's a matter of giving actual legitimacy to their current government.
On June 04 2022 09:10 Manit0u wrote: There are some reports coming in that China is preparing to move to war economy setting and is planning some big operation around the July-October period. Might be Taiwan, might be Russia...
Did anyone else stumble upon those rumors?
Where do you see this? Also, how on earth could they do anything to Russia beyond soft power and economic bullying?
One US military youtuber said that "Soviets always treated NATO military exercises as some show of force or political statement, while we used them to actually train". It could probably be the case here as well. Russian dependance on China is growing anyway due to cutting ties with the West. Any resource development in Russia is costly due to logistic issues (them resources being located in very remote places in taiga and tundra). China can't populate most of it's own territory anyway. Most of the natural resources worth grabbing in Russia are far away from Chinese border (oil, gas, diamonds - all this stuff is mostly close to the Polar Circle). Russian and Chinese strategic airforce conducted a joint military exercises over Sea of Japan and East China Sea just couple of weeks ago. China has been shifting focus from land forces to air and naval for over a decade already. And Russia still has nukes.
In light of all this I doubt we'll see any action on Russia-China border in a foreseeable future.
On June 06 2022 05:46 JimmiC wrote: The Russia one I'm not so sure on. But that would totally turn the world upside down because they pretty much vote lock step as it tends to go democracies voting one way and dictatorships the other. Not to mention that Russia still has nukes and would likely use them over losing that much territory.
If I had to bet, they would, but only to a point that wouldn't hurt the western countries that much. I do not think they would be to the level of Russian ones. It would also probably cause the fall of Putin. I wonder if China would then become the third country to try to occupy Afghanistan.
In the end I think the Chinese leadership is too shrewd and will just get themselves way ahead by getting dirt cheap enery from Russia and likely some other deals with them to increase their power and profile.
I agree with your points about Russia, it's both China's ally as well as dangerous if attacked.
I could see them attacking a fairly weak neutral neighbor like Afghanistan, but supposedly the Chinese gov has very good relationships with the Taliban, so I don't really think that that's as interesting for them.
I still think the most likely case is Taiwan. The sanctions against China will never reach the same severity as the ones against Russia because the western economy is heavily dependent on Chinese products, a large scale trade war would ruin our economies almost as much as the Chinese. Considering that inflation in many western countries is already high due to the war in Ukraine I just don't see it happening. Secondly I strongly doubt that the USA will go into a direct military confrontation with China if they can avoid it and I don't think Taiwan is worth risking a nuclear war for (Japan or SK might). Third the CCP has strong ideological reasons to attack Taiwan, China is extremely nationalist and has expressed that they will stop at nothing to achieve the "unification" of China. Conquering Taiwan is not just a question of geopolitical usage but also prestige for the Chinese government, especially because Taiwan presents an alternative to their totalitarian regime.
Why do you think that the US will go against their word and abandon taiwan despite constantly saying they will defend them? And why do you think that the west won't be united when a majority of the chip production globally comes offline due to the invasion? A real trade war with China would hurt China a lot more. The US can buy its products from another market rather easily while China would have to find a new USA sized market to sell its products to, which doesn't exist.
And again can someone explain to me what part of Chinese Ideology would explain risking the starvation of hundreds of millions and the end of their ability to obtain oil? Ignoreing completely the difficulty in actually invading Taiwan I just don't understand how a reckless and insane invasion of taiwan reconciles with the "long game pragmatism" we've seen from them for the longest time.
On June 06 2022 05:46 JimmiC wrote: The Russia one I'm not so sure on. But that would totally turn the world upside down because they pretty much vote lock step as it tends to go democracies voting one way and dictatorships the other. Not to mention that Russia still has nukes and would likely use them over losing that much territory.
If I had to bet, they would, but only to a point that wouldn't hurt the western countries that much. I do not think they would be to the level of Russian ones. It would also probably cause the fall of Putin. I wonder if China would then become the third country to try to occupy Afghanistan.
In the end I think the Chinese leadership is too shrewd and will just get themselves way ahead by getting dirt cheap enery from Russia and likely some other deals with them to increase their power and profile.
I agree with your points about Russia, it's both China's ally as well as dangerous if attacked.
I could see them attacking a fairly weak neutral neighbor like Afghanistan, but supposedly the Chinese gov has very good relationships with the Taliban, so I don't really think that that's as interesting for them.
I still think the most likely case is Taiwan. The sanctions against China will never reach the same severity as the ones against Russia because the western economy is heavily dependent on Chinese products, a large scale trade war would ruin our economies almost as much as the Chinese. Considering that inflation in many western countries is already high due to the war in Ukraine I just don't see it happening. Secondly I strongly doubt that the USA will go into a direct military confrontation with China if they can avoid it and I don't think Taiwan is worth risking a nuclear war for (Japan or SK might). Third the CCP has strong ideological reasons to attack Taiwan, China is extremely nationalist and has expressed that they will stop at nothing to achieve the "unification" of China. Conquering Taiwan is not just a question of geopolitical usage but also prestige for the Chinese government, especially because Taiwan presents an alternative to their totalitarian regime.
Why do you think that the US will go against their word and abandon taiwan despite constantly saying they will defend them? And why do you think that the west won't be united when a majority of the chip production globally comes offline due to the invasion? A real trade war with China would hurt China a lot more. The US can buy its products from another market rather easily while China would have to find a new USA sized market to sell its products to, which doesn't exist.
And again can someone explain to me what part of Chinese Ideology would explain risking the starvation of hundreds of millions and the end of their ability to obtain oil? Ignoreing completely the difficulty in actually invading Taiwan I just don't understand how a reckless and insane invasion of taiwan reconciles with the "long game pragmatism" we've seen from them for the longest time.
Are you telling me that entirely locking down huge cities, including closing the biggest port in the world can be considered "long game pragmatism"? If anything in recent years China has done anything but thinking long term, most of their moves were centered around strengthening the CCP short-term and unnecessary flexing that actually hurt them.
I don't think they can get any concessions or better deals, especially if we take into consideration that a lot of businesses started moving out of China and moving their production centers elsewhere. That's a big hit to China's position in the supply chain.
the issue is their pollution damage is catching up on them (and everyone around), i wonder what their real growth is Also cant help but think we still don't have the real # on covid in china
The reason why enterprises move out of China is that the wages of employees in Chinese enterprises have increased. The wages of employees in Vietnamese enterprises are only half of those in China。 China's problems are too complicated to be explained simply，Economically, militarily, historically and ideologically, there are many ethnic groups。
On June 06 2022 05:46 JimmiC wrote: The Russia one I'm not so sure on. But that would totally turn the world upside down because they pretty much vote lock step as it tends to go democracies voting one way and dictatorships the other. Not to mention that Russia still has nukes and would likely use them over losing that much territory.
If I had to bet, they would, but only to a point that wouldn't hurt the western countries that much. I do not think they would be to the level of Russian ones. It would also probably cause the fall of Putin. I wonder if China would then become the third country to try to occupy Afghanistan.
In the end I think the Chinese leadership is too shrewd and will just get themselves way ahead by getting dirt cheap enery from Russia and likely some other deals with them to increase their power and profile.
I agree with your points about Russia, it's both China's ally as well as dangerous if attacked.
I could see them attacking a fairly weak neutral neighbor like Afghanistan, but supposedly the Chinese gov has very good relationships with the Taliban, so I don't really think that that's as interesting for them.
I still think the most likely case is Taiwan. The sanctions against China will never reach the same severity as the ones against Russia because the western economy is heavily dependent on Chinese products, a large scale trade war would ruin our economies almost as much as the Chinese. Considering that inflation in many western countries is already high due to the war in Ukraine I just don't see it happening. Secondly I strongly doubt that the USA will go into a direct military confrontation with China if they can avoid it and I don't think Taiwan is worth risking a nuclear war for (Japan or SK might). Third the CCP has strong ideological reasons to attack Taiwan, China is extremely nationalist and has expressed that they will stop at nothing to achieve the "unification" of China. Conquering Taiwan is not just a question of geopolitical usage but also prestige for the Chinese government, especially because Taiwan presents an alternative to their totalitarian regime.
Why do you think that the US will go against their word and abandon taiwan despite constantly saying they will defend them? And why do you think that the west won't be united when a majority of the chip production globally comes offline due to the invasion? A real trade war with China would hurt China a lot more. The US can buy its products from another market rather easily while China would have to find a new USA sized market to sell its products to, which doesn't exist.
And again can someone explain to me what part of Chinese Ideology would explain risking the starvation of hundreds of millions and the end of their ability to obtain oil? Ignoreing completely the difficulty in actually invading Taiwan I just don't understand how a reckless and insane invasion of taiwan reconciles with the "long game pragmatism" we've seen from them for the longest time.
Are you telling me that entirely locking down huge cities, including closing the biggest port in the world can be considered "long game pragmatism"? If anything in recent years China has done anything but thinking long term, most of their moves were centered around strengthening the CCP short-term and unnecessary flexing that actually hurt them.
Yes it is. They haven't gone through the waves of the plauge like the rest of the world with an MRNA vaccine to top off people from dieing from it. If they don't lock down Bejing and Shanghai like they did their entire population gets hit with Omicron 2 with little to no resistance to it.
Leaning into nationalism in times of crisis is a classic western move. They're still building up their trade routes and buying friends in Africa while building fake islands in the south china sea. For all the unforced errors they take the money they bring to places still talks louder.
Can’ t wait till the communist regime in China falls and people actually get to experience some freedom out there;
Freedoms such as leaving the country, freedoms such as professing your religious belief system, freedoms such as owning your own house (you can only rent it as is from the goverment long term like 30 years)
People deserve better than this; also,internet freedom to enjoy YouTube, Facebook, whatever
On June 08 2022 04:07 pebble444 wrote: Can’ t wait till the communist regime in China falls and people actually get to experience some freedom out there;
Freedoms such as leaving the country, freedoms such as professing your religious belief system, freedoms such as owning your own house (you can only rent it as is from the goverment long term like 30 years)
People deserve better than this; also,internet freedom to enjoy YouTube, Facebook, whatever
Yeah, I think that if suddenly the great firewall of China would fall it would be quite a shock to many people there.
On June 08 2022 04:07 pebble444 wrote: Can’ t wait till the communist regime in China falls and people actually get to experience some freedom out there;
Freedoms such as leaving the country, freedoms such as professing your religious belief system, freedoms such as owning your own house (you can only rent it as is from the goverment long term like 30 years)
People deserve better than this; also,internet freedom to enjoy YouTube, Facebook, whatever
Yeah, I think that if suddenly the great firewall of China would fall it would be quite a shock to many people there.
It’s really not hard to get past, VPNs work fine basically all the time except for political anniversaries and shit, which has always said to me China isn’t actually that interested in totally blocking western internet, just making it annoying to access. The difference between when China is REALLY trying to stop you from accessing western internet and when they’re not is night and day.
On June 08 2022 04:07 pebble444 wrote: Can’ t wait till the communist regime in China falls and people actually get to experience some freedom out there;
Freedoms such as leaving the country, freedoms such as professing your religious belief system, freedoms such as owning your own house (you can only rent it as is from the goverment long term like 30 years)
People deserve better than this; also,internet freedom to enjoy YouTube, Facebook, whatever
Yeah, I think that if suddenly the great firewall of China would fall it would be quite a shock to many people there.
It’s really not hard to get past, VPNs work fine basically all the time except for political anniversaries and shit, which has always said to me China isn’t actually that interested in totally blocking western internet, just making it annoying to access. The difference between when China is REALLY trying to stop you from accessing western internet and when they’re not is night and day.
Yes, but it's still more a tool for more tech savvy people. I would presume that the majority of population have no idea how to use a VPN (even in the west it's hard for people to use anything that doesn't come pre-installed on their machines).
Most people who are using the internet a lot are able to use VPNs, they often dont because China has a huge tech sector with Chinese versions of western apps like Uber is DiDi, Spotify is QQ (QQ is better though,) Amazon is Taobao, WeChat is like Giga-Facebook+ApplePay, etc. so they don’t really feel the need to go through the mild hassle to go to blocked western websites.
The great firewall going down wouldn’t change much beyond western tech moving in and fighting Chinese tech. It’s not like Chinese people would see some sort of hidden light and be in awe at western magic, tech literate people would barely notice until Google tried to assert a monopoly over China and the tech illiterate Chinese wouldn’t know the difference because they’re not using the internet much anyways.
China isn’t the stonewalled North Korea brand isolated country that people imagine it to be.
I would argue that China kept the west out of their tech market for 1. Government control, and 2. to create a robust domestic tech industry that keeps them from being beholden to western corporations, which they now have.
I’d like to point out the massive amount of data harvesting the US does, immediately after the Roe v Wade leak people were warned to delete their period tracking apps because they could become a legal liability in states that aimed to criminalize any loss of pregnancy. The west is no paragon of data privacy.
I can’t fathom the idea that western corporations have an ounce of morality or integrity, frankly. They’ve shown time and again they have neither. At best they want to retain their own autonomous power and the Chinese government doesn’t take kindly to encroachments on its power in even small ways.
Also your link says Dragonfly got shut down because of disagreements with Googles privacy team, not because anyone found out about the relationship.
I mean yeah, Chinese governments authoritarianism is awful, but I take issue with the core conceit that people in China are hyper ignorant (beyond the typical hyper ignorance people from the west are equally susceptible to) because of the great firewall. It’s not nearly as big a deal as people make it out to be and they totally could make it a big deal, they prove that several times yearly (I’m not in China atm but the Tiananmen Square anniversary almost definitely had a good three days of actual legitimate western internet blockage.)
The west really has to stop thinking it’s uniquely moral or immune to information control, we’re neither of those things.
I remember people asking me “where will you sleep??” before I moved to China because they didn’t grasp that Chinese people slept in fucking beds, lol. They thought people in China lived in huts and slept on fucking piles of straw.
We’re all grossly ignorant of the places we haven’t actually been or spent any time in and we have these weird pictures of what we think those places are like but I doubt they’re often accurate.
The Chinese people I met thought America was full of rich homeowners in giant houses with white picket fences, if you showed them urban squalor or any random neighborhood that wasn’t rich they’d go “fuck this is not what I imagined at all.”
This thread had its title changed because (I presume) it was pretty heavily slanted anti-china. I don't see Zambrah's critique as going in the wrong direction, and can relate to the ignorance and bias they speak of.
Some people definitely have that sort of innate perception of moral superiority, even if only that kind of underlying kind. It’s just the nature of things, people don’t get the opportunity to experience other countries culture and have to absorb an idea of it from media and media obviously is going to offer its own slanted view of things, plenty of truth but without a lot of context to ground it in. So we get ideas of the Chinese government basically being North Korea (which I’ve never been to so they could be totally dissimilar to how we imagine them to be, to be fair) You don’t have to think the west is very moral to think then morally superior and such.
I just want to offer a perspective as a westerner who spent time living in China and got some interesting prospective insights into phenomena we’ve all mostly heard about and how those phenomena actually worked out when I was there.
Like the censorship thing is about as bad as the media makes it out, but the great firewall isn’t nearly as isolating as people think it is. CCP is authoritarian and awful but they’re not communist, they’re like crony state capitalist, etc.
Generally I now view China as an authoritarian country with a fairly competent government that I don’t think young people in the US can adequately understand. The US government is so beholden to corporations and so unbelievably short sighted and ineffective compared to the Chinese government which is basically an opposite situation.
In the power equation yeah basically, and also in a kind of literal sense, I remember the tobacco industry in particular was basically immensely corrupt and government owned and all of that hairy business when capitalism has gross sloppy sex with government.
They also have a mountain of foreign companies that operate there obviously, like Ive never seen so many fucking Adidas stores in one city before, but utilities and sort of "core" business sectors domestically are basically the government.
The price of utilities cant be beat though, 200USD for the maxiest phone and cable package, aside from that I was spending 40 bucks a month on utilities (electric, gas, and water) and I kept the AC to a crisp 60 degrees at all times.
On June 08 2022 06:47 Zambrah wrote: Most people who are using the internet a lot are able to use VPNs, they often dont because China has a huge tech sector with Chinese versions of western apps like Uber is DiDi, Spotify is QQ (QQ is better though,) Amazon is Taobao, WeChat is like Giga-Facebook+ApplePay, etc. so they don’t really feel the need to go through the mild hassle to go to blocked western websites.
The great firewall going down wouldn’t change much beyond western tech moving in and fighting Chinese tech. It’s not like Chinese people would see some sort of hidden light and be in awe at western magic, tech literate people would barely notice until Google tried to assert a monopoly over China and the tech illiterate Chinese wouldn’t know the difference because they’re not using the internet much anyways.
China isn’t the stonewalled North Korea brand isolated country that people imagine it to be.
We can visit TL without VPNs，but Still very few Chinese want to say something here Some of west friends think we are more silent because they are the winning side，the right side，the justice side。but I think its because they have the the language superiority。I have a bachelor degree，in most case I can communicate with foreigners on my work，but these political things are too hard for me to express it clear and right。 When I starded using twiter and VPNs several yeas ago， Twitter send me antiChina informations at the very first time。I saw the “fair“ of twitter，yes i believe west government do not have propaganda machines， but they control the machines。only months later I deleted it。
For most of us，we do not want to argue with west people about these，we do not care that much。I spend more than 30min to input this，and I wont do it again。
It's always nice to see people talk about the "West" as it if was some kind of block on the same level as the ccp. Critics are mostly coming from reporters, which are mostly independant and from multiples countries.
On June 08 2022 08:26 Fleetfeet wrote: This thread had its title changed because (I presume) it was pretty heavily slanted anti-china. I don't see Zambrah's critique as going in the wrong direction, and can relate to the ignorance and bias they speak of.
You seem confused. I said bias and ignorance exist. I said people do not think the west is pure and morale.
Do I genuinely seem confused to you?
You strongly indicated that you feel the sentiment of the thread leans more heavily against "the west" than it does china, and in so indicating suggested that Zambrah's criticism was misplaced if their goal is to balance the general sentiment of the thread.
I pointed out that the thread literally used to have an anti-chinese title (It was something like "The China problem" iirc) and rejected the idea that people generally have a more explicit bias against the west than they do china. I didn't imply that you were stating there was no ignorance or bias.
You made a directly comparative statement, and now seem to be backpedalling. You seem to be claiming to have said people believe the west is ALSO impure and amoral, instead of the statement you did make, which is that you believe MORE people here believe the west is MORE impure and amoral.
While that statement itself may not be incorrect it struck me as a strange way of undermining Zambrah's criticisms rather than addressing them directly, so I challenged it.
China can access most foreign websites without VPN。 Only foreigners who have lived and worked in China without prejudice to China can understand China。 There will always be various prejudices in news reports. If you believe the news completely, you are wrong。 China's news reports on the United States are basically negative information。 American shootings, American racial discrimination, Asian attacks in the United States, the United States' failure to control the COVID-19, many homeless people in the United States, the United States' expensive medical expenses, the United States has caused wars all over the world, and there are many, many negative news。 It is impossible for Chinese news media to praise the United States. American news media will not praise China either。
Many Chinese do not visit foreign websites. 99.9% of them are due to language and 0.1% are due to VPN. There are many websites in China. You won't visit them. You don't need VPN. Will you visit them or leave messages? Although many Chinese people learn English, they just to take an exam. 90% of them don't speak English. If they don't engage in English related work after graduation, they basically forget English. There is no English language environment, and most of the students who learn English don't learn very well.
On June 08 2022 08:26 Fleetfeet wrote: This thread had its title changed because (I presume) it was pretty heavily slanted anti-china. I don't see Zambrah's critique as going in the wrong direction, and can relate to the ignorance and bias they speak of.
It was not slanted anti-china. The title was "The Chinese Conundrum" which indicated it's a complicated matter (not specifying how and why).
On June 08 2022 17:03 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: China can access most foreign websites without VPN。 Only foreigners who have lived and worked in China without prejudice to China can understand China。 There will always be various prejudices in news reports. If you believe the news completely, you are wrong。 China's news reports on the United States are basically negative information。 American shootings, American racial discrimination, Asian attacks in the United States, the United States' failure to control the COVID-19, many homeless people in the United States, the United States' expensive medical expenses, the United States has caused wars all over the world, and there are many, many negative news。 It is impossible for Chinese news media to praise the United States. American news media will not praise China either。
And most of those are true. Just like the reports of torture/systemic rape/organ harvesting in china. If you visited the USPol or the covid thread, you'd see that most of us are able, and willing, to talk shit about our countries without getting arrested and beaten up. Once again, have you been to Xinjiang?
On June 08 2022 08:26 Fleetfeet wrote: This thread had its title changed because (I presume) it was pretty heavily slanted anti-china. I don't see Zambrah's critique as going in the wrong direction, and can relate to the ignorance and bias they speak of.
You seem confused. I said bias and ignorance exist. I said people do not think the west is pure and morale.
Do I genuinely seem confused to you?
You strongly indicated that you feel the sentiment of the thread leans more heavily against "the west" than it does china, and in so indicating suggested that Zambrah's criticism was misplaced if their goal is to balance the general sentiment of the thread.
I pointed out that the thread literally used to have an anti-chinese title (It was something like "The China problem" iirc) and rejected the idea that people generally have a more explicit bias against the west than they do china. I didn't imply that you were stating there was no ignorance or bias.
You made a directly comparative statement, and now seem to be backpedalling. You seem to be claiming to have said people believe the west is ALSO impure and amoral, instead of the statement you did make, which is that you believe MORE people here believe the west is MORE impure and amoral.
While that statement itself may not be incorrect it struck me as a strange way of undermining Zambrah's criticisms rather than addressing them directly, so I challenged it.
I do not know what tour issue is with me but best if you just stop interjecting with your pretend "voice of reason". Me and Zam have had many conversations and I was not talking about just this thread. If you read his follow up and mine tou can tell he knew what I was saying and I him. If you want to discuss a point by all means, this is not that.
And yes I think a large contingent of of posterd think the west is awful. "More" would depend on the individual. Many of the people here are from multiple other pol threads and you tend to know where they stand on a variety of issues.
Edit: In the US and Euro thread much of the discussion is about the faults, why that would change here I'm not sure.
d00d I legitimately explain myself and my point as clearly as possible and all I get in return is "you must be confused" or something. I'm not objecting to you personally, I'm very specifically objecting to the content of your post.
@manit0u thanks for the clarification, appreciate it.
That suits me just fine. You've yet to actually provide a satisfying response to any line of questioning and instead seem to want to draw the discussion into some kind of personal vendetta that doesn't exist. I'll continue to post as I do, and let my arguments stand on their own. The point of discourse is to clarify and better understand positions, and that's real fucking hard when the other side is reacting like they've been personally attacked.
I'm done shitting up this thread with a pointless argument that has nothing to do with the thread anymore, but can't cross-post into the uspol feedback thread, becuase mobile is being a dick and won't let me log on tl.net. If you care to respond, please do it there and I'll get back to you.
My short rebuttal is this : I take your first sentence to mean "It is because you do (personally attack me)" and I challenge you to quantify that argument.
You said you were going to ignore his posts going forward two posts ago.
And can we move on from the "you don't understand china but also I dont speak English so I win" run of posts? Like we get it you dont need to defend china on every venue you find criticism for it. No one expects the people who don't speak the language to go on the forums of that language. I'm sure German and French forums bash on America a lot but I'm not going to go on those forums with google translate to argue with them.
It just reeks of trying to plant a flag and then telling everyone the soccer field is now a football field.
On May 18 2022 01:55 RvB wrote: Their economic system is mixed like most countries in the world but their political system is certainly communist.
Maybe what was commonly referred to as communism in the West. Doesn't have much to do with communism itself. That would entail having a stateless, classless society where the people control the means of production. China is none of that. Quite the opposite, actually. It is an authoritarian state (turning totalitarian again), with explicit classes. The people have very limited influence on the means of production.
Kind of strange to say people "in the west" considering China calls itself communist, people in Russia likely do and all over the world.
There is philosophical communism and what communism has looked like in practice. From China to North Korea, to USSR to so on it has looked like this. Authoritarianism where the scape goat is "capitalism" but it functions the same as any other authoritarianism including fascism.
The party calls itself communist (and North Korea calls itself "democratic", by the way), but neither China nor the USSR ever claimed to be communist, afaik. They only tell their people that they're striving to one day become a communist society.
That is part of the schitck, you can never get out of that stage as the "capitalists" are always there fighting you (see deep state, nazis or jews depending on the facsist ideology). The leaders keep requiring extra power to defeat who ever the scape goat is but the more they get the wealthier them and their families get but somehow the scapegoats remain to powerful to stop.
This post I read on Reddit says it better than I could on what the party itself is saying, so I saved it. Now why it needs billionaires and lives a absolute luxury for those in control never really gets explained, but for anyone not drinking the koolaid it is pretty obvious that most/all authoritarianism run countries are the same they just all have their own take on the marketing/branding to make them the heros.
f you mean to say that China is not a communist country because it has not achieved a "Communist" stage of economic development, then you are not only correct, but the Chinese Communist Party itself agrees with you.
In the west, the term "Communist" in the context of countries is used to refer primarily to Marxist-Leninist states. Most famously these would be the Soviet Union and China, which were both headed by Communist Parties. The thing is, even though every one of these countries followed Communist ideology, none of them ever claimed to be Communist. If you read Russian or Chinese texts you will notice that they always mention "Socialism" and claim to be "Socialist countries".
This is because in the Communist idea of historic dialectic set out by Marx and Engels, the human stages of economic development go in the following order: Feudalism > Capitalism > Socialism > Communism . In other words, Communism was the "end goal" that all the Marxists (traditional Communists) set out to achieve.
However, if you look at Russian and Chinese history you will notice that they attempted to go from semi-feudal agrarian societies to jump directly into the "Socialism" stage without going through the capitalism stage. This turned out to be a mistake, since market capitalism was much more capable of providing surplus than socialist state run economies. This is where the stereotypes of constant food and commodity shortages of the Eastern bloc originate from.
It was from this context that China in the 1970s began to switch gears to a more market driven "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" under Deng Xiaoping. Market reforms were introduced, moving China away from the stereotypical Marxist-Leninist "Communist" type of state run economy. This may seem to many like an admission that Communism is flawed, but in fact, it is almost the opposite.
Deng Xiaoping was a staunch communist, and his shift towards market capitalism was in fact an attempt to drive China back into the "correct" communist path. So instead of going Feudalism > Socialism > Communism, and skipping capitalism, he would put the "Capitalism" stage back in, as Marx had originally envisioned. The idea is to let the nation become wealthy with surplus first, before reigning it back in under the state.
To this day, this remains under this ideology of having communism as the end goal, and the Chinese Communist Party retains heavy "socialist" economic policies - All major banks continue to be state run, funded by the central bank, and major companies are all either directly run by or heavily influenced by the Party, even when in the eyes of western economic analysts it would be far more efficient to further implement market reforms. In fact, these days the Communist party is starting to go in the opposite direction, as it is attempting to bring back the influence of the state run economy, which they believe has run too far from the proper "Communist" way.
In other words, China was never a Communist country. But Communism remains the goal of the leaders of China. And in the west, where Communism is not well understood, a country with Communism as the end goal is considered a Communist country. In this regards, China is just as Communist as it was under Chairman Mao, it's just much richer while doing it. No country was ever Communist. But if any country could be called "Communist", it would be China.
TL/DR: "Communists" are those who consider "Communism" to be the end goal. The Chinese Government considers "Communism" to be the end goal. Therefore China is "Communist".
The communism explain part is correct。 add up： 1 CPC or CCP was not being recognized as a real “Communist” party by Stalin at very beginning，for Stalin thought communist party should be build on industry workers support，while back then China do not have that much industry，CPC was build on farmers support。 2 ”Communism remains the goal of the leaders of China“-yes and No inside CPC they have discussed these theories for many years，like： is USSR socialism？answered no when broke up with USSR in 1960s……are we still socialism after 1979？ What is communism in detail？how to achieve communism？ Now they think developing the economy，making people having better life is the only thing can be certained to be right at present。 Communism is too far away to spend time on it。
On May 18 2022 10:42 fakovski wrote: I surfed on TL since 2002, when 20years ago ppl are more friendly , unfortunately China is developing too fast that she become a main threat to the U.S (and her allies), I can even feel ppl from those countries have a different view of China comparing with ppl from other countries. It will not be pleasant to argue with them, and it would not be helpful to anyone, China is making firm progress under such questionings and prejudice since her foundation in1949, so I suggest everyone put aside those arguements and try to make the world better for everyone.
I think people are less neutral than 20yrs ago on many things，Races， Religious，Gender problems，and China。 20 years ago，for a foreigner that never came to China，what he knows about us was like panda，greatwall or otherthings that is more neutral，because most people do not care a country that is so far away and do not spend minutes on knowing it。if he wants to know more he need to find somenews about china at the corner of a newspaper，or google on a computer，or watch TV news on certain time，the cost was higher than now。 Now everyone has smart phone，socialmedia apps can send you message even when you are shitting，and these app will study you，send the message you interest in，strengthen your point on certain things，make people more extreme about a lot of things。still you do not spend much time on knowing China，but apps will tell you in brief：communism，totalism，dictatorship…… and through my experience ，these app are not that fair，their bosses acted like chicken when be questioned by senators，if someone say they can stay out of government influence，I wont believe it
It seems to happen very often when people criticize China. I note that the cn posters are very adamant that you cannot run a news network without gov interference, which tells a lot on how it works in china. Everyone is biased and paid by the western gov, but the ccp. Cool stuff, def not indoctrination.
Because of the 0 COVID policy and all the lockdowns China is now facing a $1 trillion funding gap. They've lost over $370 billion in taxable income and $500 billion in land sales. Shenzen reported a 44% year-over-year drop in fiscal revenue and all the mass testing is encroaching on 2% of China's GDP.
This means huge debts and potential massive crisis down the line. Local governments will be in some deep problems come next year.
On June 10 2022 20:27 Manit0u wrote: Because of the 0 COVID policy and all the lockdowns China is now facing a $1 trillion funding gap. They've lost over $370 billion in taxable income and $500 billion in land sales. Shenzen reported a 44% year-over-year drop in fiscal revenue and all the mass testing is encroaching on 2% of China's GDP.
This means huge debts and potential massive crisis down the line. Local governments will be in some deep problems come next year.
2% of gdp is a level that I don't think you realize what it means.
A quick google and calculator says that's 294.4 billion dollars worth of testing. If china is spending 300 billion on testing 6 months into the year it's an incredible achievement in corruption we should celebrate.
On June 10 2022 20:27 Manit0u wrote: Because of the 0 COVID policy and all the lockdowns China is now facing a $1 trillion funding gap. They've lost over $370 billion in taxable income and $500 billion in land sales. Shenzen reported a 44% year-over-year drop in fiscal revenue and all the mass testing is encroaching on 2% of China's GDP.
This means huge debts and potential massive crisis down the line. Local governments will be in some deep problems come next year.
On June 11 2022 00:42 Sermokala wrote: 2% of gdp is a level that I don't think you realize what it means.
A quick google and calculator says that's 294.4 billion dollars worth of testing. If china is spending 300 billion on testing 6 months into the year it's an incredible achievement in corruption we should celebrate.
Their spending on testing is estimated at 1.8% GDP at the moment.
Again I don't think you know how much money 265 billion dollars is if you seriously believe that number. that's more than their entire military budget And then 35 billion. thats a little less than the entire entertainment and fast food industry in America combined. Thats the entire GDP of Finland.
I can belive incredible levels of corruption exist but there is no way that china has the capability of spending 265 billion on testing. That source you're quoting is considering testing a majority of the Chinese population every two days. Thats some serious Mcdonalds shrimp salad levels of testing. its giving that number IF they decide to start doing it for a much larger section of their nation than they're doing. meaning that they aren't and its not even considered if they could.
Please my friend give some sort of consideration on these numbers.
I'm just reporting what I find. If it were actually true it would be nuts, I know. I wonder if there's any reliable source that could provide some insights into Chinese spending to confirm or dismiss those claims.
On June 10 2022 20:27 Manit0u wrote: Because of the 0 COVID policy and all the lockdowns China is now facing a $1 trillion funding gap. They've lost over $370 billion in taxable income and $500 billion in land sales. Shenzen reported a 44% year-over-year drop in fiscal revenue and all the mass testing is encroaching on 2% of China's GDP.
This means huge debts and potential massive crisis down the line. Local governments will be in some deep problems come next year.
Chinas economic problem is not really a problem for them. It is mostly a problem for the USA that depends on imports from China to not have inflation spiral out of control. If China was to halt all exports to the USA then many different consumer goods would see triple digit inflation.
Chinas economic slowdown is inevitable either way for demographic reasons. The pandemic did speed up this process with maybe a few years. They are prepared for this and they want to make the transition from an export oriented growth economy to an economy that is more oriented towards domestic consumption.
It really is not a problem for them right now,if it was they would have dropped the zero covid policy. China holding on to zero covid policy is a far bigger problem for the USA then it is for China.
I'm very curious on how you think china halting all exports to the USA won't cause more problems with china than the USA. Sure there might be triple digit inflation and that would cause an economic depression but the Chinese economy is export driven and is not the only maker of cheap goods in the world. Their economy would utterly collapse while the usa would recover in a decade maybe half a decade depending on how enthusiastically nations take advantage of such a vacuum.
While China is an export-driven economy they're also a wildly import-dependent country. They need middle eastern oil and western hemispheric food shipments. They have no ability to protect their trade outside of the south china sea. How would it be possible that china would be able to last a year in any sort of trade war with the USA?
And why do you think chinas economic problem isn't a problem for them? They've got a 300 billion dollar bomb in ever grande that's officially defaulted and they have a train system that is a trillion in debt with no way to turn a profit.
I can't stop shaking my head, feel sorry, and... I'm out of words 1st have you been to China and actually live there? (I have, I was sent there to learn the language for 1.5 year than back and fort for business) 2nd if you listen to Winston Sterzel a.k.a SerpentZA and believe things that he said... (the dude is a conman and a white supremacist) 3rd if you listen to those anti China main stream media like Sky News, Fox, CNN, Washington Post, and other western main stream media about China... well...
From my experience, westerners, specially Americans have what non westerners consider brainwash by their government about their view of non western nation/people, and especially when it comes to China/Chinese (and Russian, which right now become a sensitive topic, sot gonna touch the Russia issue atm), maybe coz of those coldwar mentality still lingers on americans, western people in general or countries under heavy western influence like Japan or South Korea, so it's easy to convince those who were raise by western believe that every thing that those surviving eastern power do is bad, evil only by a snap of a finger.
China issue:
Taiwan? dude, it an ongoing civil war, leave them be, let them solve it by their own, US been meddling and try to influence china since before the WWII, putting their bets on sadly the loosing side who runs to Taiwan island, the time when US imperialism on China is long gone, US always love the weak and corrupt government of Taiwan coz US still have the dream of colonizing the entire east Asia, Japan, South Korea are practically under US control, I know some, countries, not china btw, even called Japan and Korea as US lapdog, only if only Taiwan can win their civil war, the dream will be fulfill, so until Taiwan wins, forever and ever Taiwan will be US tool, puppets and bargaining chip in regards of China
Xinjiang? Been to Xinjiang. 3 times, 1 with a tour group, twice for business visit to buy and sign deals with the Xinjiang locals, not Han Chinese, but an actually Xinjiang local farmers and businessman, base on what I saw, how the people living their lives, those abuse, oppressions story by those east Turkmenistan activist, free Xinjiang, etc etc make me wanna puke! Xinjiang human right issue are totally made up, funded by NED, while the NED is funded by the US state Department... just google it yourself, I quote some I found by goggling it "This allocation comes from within the budget of USAID, the U.S. agency for development assistance, which is part of the U.S. State Department." "22 Jan 2004 — Though the NED is officially a private, nongovernmental organization, it gets the lion's share of its funding from the U.S. Treasury; last year, " Testimony, from those so called witness who escape Xinjiang, after what happens with the testimony leading to invasion of Iraq & the fact that they are part of a movement group made by NED, well, IMO they are the joke of the century. not buying any of it or the drama which they still trying HARD to sell
HongKong? China lost the opium war, force to sign the Unequal treaty (en.wikipedia.org), hongkong is part of china, was just taken by force, got rape, and end up experiencing Stockholm syndrome, loving their british/western captors, never once during British occupation hongkongers ever given chance to have an election, now that hongkong do have an election the western countries said democracy being suppress in hongkong, get real... Hongkong riots before covid and how the it was dealt? izzit a violation of humans rights or izzit those rioters just wayyyyy out of line? here is one to consider, not from chinese media, but from western media www.youtube.com And, why not comparing the latest riot with 1967 Hong Kong riots under british rule and how it was handle by the democratic western system?
0-Covid All I know from my Chinese colleague there, it's not how its describe by the western media, it's more of trying to prevent incontrollable spread, there will be case, but how to manage it from spreading like crazy, extreme case like Shanghai lockdown is the last resort. The goals of their 0-Covid strategy is to buy time for the virus to die down or under control or until there is a more effective vaccine, medication or treatment, so, the number of cases won't go crazy like in the US, if I remember correctly, the number of covid cases in the US is around 25% of the total population, if say the same percentage applied on China 1.4 billion population, it will be 350 million cases, with this days covid mortality rate of 1.3%, it will be 4.5million people dead, the 0-Covid strategy and lockdown in an extreme case, actually saves millions of Chinese people lives
FYI, I'm not pro China or anti West, nothing is perfect, the only reason I reply to this issue simply becoz the argument is dead wrong, people get fooled easily when it comes to china issue, I admit, before I went to China, I was one of China hatters, things change when I actually comes there, and willing to actually look for more information before I took the poisonous words come from the western mainstream media or those like SerpentZA (I was his subscriber before I went to China myself lol)
It's hard to see the truth when all the information you receive are all unbalance, wrong, and in the end, I believe you end up with what Psychologist called Cognitive bias (I think, I'm not a Psychologist, just remember someone talk about it somewhere) In the end we believe what we want to believe, so... Peace dudes
You can't say that anyone critical of China is brainwashed and that all criticism is western state-funded propaganda, then try to say at the end that you're not pro china or anti west. That isn't how logic works at all.
Do you seriously think those arguments are persuasive at all?
On June 12 2022 16:23 Blue Light wrote: I can't stop shaking my head, feel sorry, and... I'm out of words 1st have you been to China and actually live there? (I have, I was sent there to learn the language for 1.5 year than back and fort for business) 2nd if you listen to Winston Sterzel a.k.a SerpentZA and believe things that he said... (the dude is a conman and a white supremacist) 3rd if you listen to those anti China main stream media like Sky News, Fox, CNN, Washington Post, and other western main stream media about China... well...
From my experience, westerners, specially Americans have what non westerners consider brainwash by their government about their view of non western nation/people, and especially when it comes to China/Chinese (and Russian, which right now become a sensitive topic, sot gonna touch the Russia issue atm), maybe coz of those coldwar mentality still lingers on americans, western people in general or countries under heavy western influence like Japan or South Korea, so it's easy to convince those who were raise by western believe that every thing that those surviving eastern power do is bad, evil only by a snap of a finger.
China issue:
Taiwan? dude, it an ongoing civil war, leave them be, let them solve it by their own, US been meddling and try to influence china since before the WWII, putting their bets on sadly the loosing side who runs to Taiwan island, the time when US imperialism on China is long gone, US always love the weak and corrupt government of Taiwan coz US still have the dream of colonizing the entire east Asia, Japan, South Korea are practically under US control, I know some, countries, not china btw, even called Japan and Korea as US lapdog, only if only Taiwan can win their civil war, the dream will be fulfill, so until Taiwan wins, forever and ever Taiwan will be US tool, puppets and bargaining chip in regards of China
Xinjiang? Been to Xinjiang. 3 times, 1 with a tour group, twice for business visit to buy and sign deals with the Xinjiang locals, not Han Chinese, but an actually Xinjiang local farmers and businessman, base on what I saw, how the people living their lives, those abuse, oppressions story by those east Turkmenistan activist, free Xinjiang, etc etc make me wanna puke! Xinjiang human right issue are totally made up, funded by NED, while the NED is funded by the US state Department... just google it yourself, I quote some I found by goggling it "This allocation comes from within the budget of USAID, the U.S. agency for development assistance, which is part of the U.S. State Department." "22 Jan 2004 — Though the NED is officially a private, nongovernmental organization, it gets the lion's share of its funding from the U.S. Treasury; last year, " Testimony, from those so called witness who escape Xinjiang, after what happens with the testimony leading to invasion of Iraq & the fact that they are part of a movement group made by NED, well, IMO they are the joke of the century. not buying any of it or the drama which they still trying HARD to sell
HongKong? China lost the opium war, force to sign the Unequal treaty (en.wikipedia.org), hongkong is part of china, was just taken by force, got rape, and end up experiencing Stockholm syndrome, loving their british/western captors, never once during British occupation hongkongers ever given chance to have an election, now that hongkong do have an election the western countries said democracy being suppress in hongkong, get real... Hongkong riots before covid and how the it was dealt? izzit a violation of humans rights or izzit those rioters just wayyyyy out of line? here is one to consider, not from chinese media, but from western media www.youtube.com And, why not comparing the latest riot with 1967 Hong Kong riots under british rule and how it was handle by the democratic western system?
0-Covid All I know from my Chinese colleague there, it's not how its describe by the western media, it's more of trying to prevent incontrollable spread, there will be case, but how to manage it from spreading like crazy, extreme case like Shanghai lockdown is the last resort. The goals of their 0-Covid strategy is to buy time for the virus to die down or under control or until there is a more effective vaccine, medication or treatment, so, the number of cases won't go crazy like in the US, if I remember correctly, the number of covid cases in the US is around 25% of the total population, if say the same percentage applied on China 1.4 billion population, it will be 350 million cases, with this days covid mortality rate of 1.3%, it will be 4.5million people dead, the 0-Covid strategy and lockdown in an extreme case, actually saves millions of Chinese people lives
FYI, I'm not pro China or anti West, nothing is perfect, the only reason I reply to this issue simply becoz the argument is dead wrong, people get fooled easily when it comes to china issue, I admit, before I went to China, I was one of China hatters, things change when I actually comes there, and willing to actually look for more information before I took the poisonous words come from the western mainstream media or those like SerpentZA (I was his subscriber before I went to China myself lol)
It's hard to see the truth when all the information you receive are all unbalance, wrong, and in the end, I believe you end up with what Psychologist called Cognitive bias (I think, I'm not a Psychologist, just remember someone talk about it somewhere) In the end we believe what we want to believe, so... Peace dudes
It’s unfortunate that you spent all that time writing that post when it could have been spent productively.
I think they're just CCP mouthpiece "bots" that scour the Internet in search of posts and comments that are not in line with whatever the party is saying and trying to derail and discredit everything.
1，Most Chinese people love their country，Not everyone loves their government and the Communist Party。Many people who are not familiar with China do not know this。 2，A small number of Chinese people come here to debate, not for the sake of the Chinese government, but just to share the facts of China normally. Or a small number of people who come to China to live, work and study also say what China is like. They are forbidden. 3，I have not the slightest comment on your criticism of the Chinese government or the Communist Party of China. The only thing I have to say is that you slander China. Some false information has shielded your eyes.
On June 13 2022 11:32 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: 1，Most Chinese people love their country，Not everyone loves their government and the Communist Party。Many people who are not familiar with China do not know this。 2，A small number of Chinese people come here to debate, not for the sake of the Chinese government, but just to share the facts of China normally. Or a small number of people who come to China to live, work and study also say what China is like. They are forbidden. 3，I have not the slightest comment on your criticism of the Chinese government or the Communist Party of China. The only thing I have to say is that you slander China. Some false information has shielded your eyes.
I am an Uyghur from Xinjiang China, I lived there for nearly 20 years before moving to a western country.
Can I talk about China? Can I talk about Xinjiang and Uyghurs?
I think you cant say I dont have any idea about china, not familiar with china etc right?
No one is saying shit about China, the Chinese nation, the people, or the Han chinese. People are debating some unfortunate mistakes that are occuring right now in China.
All countries in this world make mistakes, some learn from them, some dont. Some commit the same mistakes as others and blame the others for it, "you did it, I will do it too"
It is more dispicble knowing something is wrong from history yet still comitting it.
Uyghurs, Tibetans, Taiwanese and HongKongers don't want to be part of China. It is a fact. China should take their money and development and the China dream back to mainland China, be happy and prosper, but leave the others alone who dont want to be part of it.
On June 13 2022 11:32 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: 1，Most Chinese people love their country，Not everyone loves their government and the Communist Party。Many people who are not familiar with China do not know this。 2，A small number of Chinese people come here to debate, not for the sake of the Chinese government, but just to share the facts of China normally. Or a small number of people who come to China to live, work and study also say what China is like. They are forbidden. 3，I have not the slightest comment on your criticism of the Chinese government or the Communist Party of China. The only thing I have to say is that you slander China. Some false information has shielded your eyes.
I am an Uyghur from Xinjiang China, I lived there for nearly 20 years before moving to a western country.
Can I talk about China? Can I talk about Xinjiang and Uyghurs?
I think you cant say I dont have any idea about china, not familiar with china etc right?
No one is saying shit about China, the Chinese nation, the people, or the Han chinese. People are debating some unfortunate mistakes that are occuring right now in China.
All countries in this world make mistakes, some learn from them, some dont. Some commit the same mistakes as others and blame the others for it, "you did it, I will do it too"
It is more dispicble knowing something is wrong from history yet still comitting it.
Uyghurs, Tibetans, Taiwanese and HongKongers don't want to be part of China. It is a fact. China should take their money and development and the China dream back to mainland China, be happy and prosper, but leave the others alone who dont want to be part of it.
It's not true, even today, to say that Hong Kongers do not want to be part of China. There is indeed a small but vocal voice that demands independence but that is still outside the mainstream. Most Hong Kongers just want to be left alone to govern their own affairs and live their lives.
On June 13 2022 11:32 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: 1，Most Chinese people love their country，Not everyone loves their government and the Communist Party。Many people who are not familiar with China do not know this。 2，A small number of Chinese people come here to debate, not for the sake of the Chinese government, but just to share the facts of China normally. Or a small number of people who come to China to live, work and study also say what China is like. They are forbidden. 3，I have not the slightest comment on your criticism of the Chinese government or the Communist Party of China. The only thing I have to say is that you slander China. Some false information has shielded your eyes.
I am an Uyghur from Xinjiang China, I lived there for nearly 20 years before moving to a western country.
Can I talk about China? Can I talk about Xinjiang and Uyghurs?
I think you cant say I dont have any idea about china, not familiar with china etc right?
No one is saying shit about China, the Chinese nation, the people, or the Han chinese. People are debating some unfortunate mistakes that are occuring right now in China.
All countries in this world make mistakes, some learn from them, some dont. Some commit the same mistakes as others and blame the others for it, "you did it, I will do it too"
It is more dispicble knowing something is wrong from history yet still comitting it.
Uyghurs, Tibetans, Taiwanese and HongKongers don't want to be part of China. It is a fact. China should take their money and development and the China dream back to mainland China, be happy and prosper, but leave the others alone who dont want to be part of it.
It's not true, even today, to say that Hong Kongers do not want to be part of China. There is indeed a small but vocal voice that demands independence but that is still outside the mainstream. Most Hong Kongers just want to be left alone to govern their own affairs and live their lives.
Too bad the Chinese government explicitly won't leave them alone to their own affairs and to let them live their lives. Its almost like you have no idea what the basic problem is. Speaking of...
On June 13 2022 11:32 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: 1，Most Chinese people love their country，Not everyone loves their government and the Communist Party。Many people who are not familiar with China do not know this。 2，A small number of Chinese people come here to debate, not for the sake of the Chinese government, but just to share the facts of China normally. Or a small number of people who come to China to live, work and study also say what China is like. They are forbidden. 3，I have not the slightest comment on your criticism of the Chinese government or the Communist Party of China. The only thing I have to say is that you slander China. Some false information has shielded your eyes.
You can't say you have no comment on someones criticism of the CCP and then say that someone is slandering china and that they have false information shielding their eyes. Many people are very clear about the concept of loving their country and not the political party controlling it. Thats literally what happens every 4-28 (Jeffersonian dem-reps) in America.
On June 13 2022 11:32 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: 1，Most Chinese people love their country，Not everyone loves their government and the Communist Party。Many people who are not familiar with China do not know this。 2，A small number of Chinese people come here to debate, not for the sake of the Chinese government, but just to share the facts of China normally. Or a small number of people who come to China to live, work and study also say what China is like. They are forbidden. 3，I have not the slightest comment on your criticism of the Chinese government or the Communist Party of China. The only thing I have to say is that you slander China. Some false information has shielded your eyes.
Wait, are you just unaware of the "country does" shorthand which is commonly used in English?
If someone says "Germany does X", they usually don't mean every German citizen or the whole country of Germany does X. Depending on context, this can mean the German government does X, some people in Germany does X, a German company does X, or the country of Germany as an entity does X.
So if people say "China does shitty thing", they don't mean every chinese person does the shitty thing. They usually mean the chinese government, or interchangeably the communist party, does the shitty thing.
On June 13 2022 11:32 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: 1，Most Chinese people love their country，Not everyone loves their government and the Communist Party。Many people who are not familiar with China do not know this。 2，A small number of Chinese people come here to debate, not for the sake of the Chinese government, but just to share the facts of China normally. Or a small number of people who come to China to live, work and study also say what China is like. They are forbidden. 3，I have not the slightest comment on your criticism of the Chinese government or the Communist Party of China. The only thing I have to say is that you slander China. Some false information has shielded your eyes.
I am an Uyghur from Xinjiang China, I lived there for nearly 20 years before moving to a western country.
Can I talk about China? Can I talk about Xinjiang and Uyghurs?
I think you cant say I dont have any idea about china, not familiar with china etc right?
No one is saying shit about China, the Chinese nation, the people, or the Han chinese. People are debating some unfortunate mistakes that are occuring right now in China.
All countries in this world make mistakes, some learn from them, some dont. Some commit the same mistakes as others and blame the others for it, "you did it, I will do it too"
It is more dispicble knowing something is wrong from history yet still comitting it.
Uyghurs, Tibetans, Taiwanese and HongKongers don't want to be part of China. It is a fact. China should take their money and development and the China dream back to mainland China, be happy and prosper, but leave the others alone who dont want to be part of it.
It's not true, even today, to say that Hong Kongers do not want to be part of China. There is indeed a small but vocal voice that demands independence but that is still outside the mainstream. Most Hong Kongers just want to be left alone to govern their own affairs and live their lives.
Funny to say this when CCP and their guns are breathing down everyone's neck who dares say anything they truely feel in China.
I heard the "small number of" waaay too many times while I was living in China. "Ji ge bie" "yi xiao bu fen" "shao shu min zu"... If you disagree, or feel different, then congrats you are small, and wrong and powerless.
If i understand correctly, Hong Kongers would greatly prefer to be inside of China, but governing themselves, instead of being governed by Peking. That position has been pretty beneficial to Hong Kong when it had it.
Sure but it’s missing the whole of the point. The only issue they have with being part of the PRC is that they’re part of the PRC but if you ignore that then they have no complaints with being part of the PRC. The majority of people in Hong Kong want to be in the PRC, they just don’t like being part of the PRC.
A small minority demand independence but the majority just want the right to control their own affairs. It’s an impressive level of double think. On the one hand the people of Hong Kong clearly want to be left alone by Peking but on the other they’re not interested in independence.
On June 13 2022 23:41 Simberto wrote: I mean, i think that is not wrong.
If i understand correctly, Hong Kongers would greatly prefer to be inside of China, but governing themselves, instead of being governed by Peking. That position has been pretty beneficial to Hong Kong when it had it.
HK could have similar benefits from having a trade agreement with PRC while being independent.
On June 12 2022 16:23 Blue Light wrote: I can't stop shaking my head, feel sorry, and... I'm out of words 1st have you been to China and actually live there? (I have, I was sent there to learn the language for 1.5 year than back and fort for business) 2nd if you listen to Winston Sterzel a.k.a SerpentZA and believe things that he said... (the dude is a conman and a white supremacist) 3rd if you listen to those anti China main stream media like Sky News, Fox, CNN, Washington Post, and other western main stream media about China... well...
From my experience, westerners, specially Americans have what non westerners consider brainwash by their government about their view of non western nation/people, and especially when it comes to China/Chinese (and Russian, which right now become a sensitive topic, sot gonna touch the Russia issue atm), maybe coz of those coldwar mentality still lingers on americans, western people in general or countries under heavy western influence like Japan or South Korea, so it's easy to convince those who were raise by western believe that every thing that those surviving eastern power do is bad, evil only by a snap of a finger.
China issue:
Taiwan? dude, it an ongoing civil war, leave them be, let them solve it by their own, US been meddling and try to influence china since before the WWII, putting their bets on sadly the loosing side who runs to Taiwan island, the time when US imperialism on China is long gone, US always love the weak and corrupt government of Taiwan coz US still have the dream of colonizing the entire east Asia, Japan, South Korea are practically under US control, I know some, countries, not china btw, even called Japan and Korea as US lapdog, only if only Taiwan can win their civil war, the dream will be fulfill, so until Taiwan wins, forever and ever Taiwan will be US tool, puppets and bargaining chip in regards of China
Xinjiang? Been to Xinjiang. 3 times, 1 with a tour group, twice for business visit to buy and sign deals with the Xinjiang locals, not Han Chinese, but an actually Xinjiang local farmers and businessman, base on what I saw, how the people living their lives, those abuse, oppressions story by those east Turkmenistan activist, free Xinjiang, etc etc make me wanna puke! Xinjiang human right issue are totally made up, funded by NED, while the NED is funded by the US state Department... just google it yourself, I quote some I found by goggling it "This allocation comes from within the budget of USAID, the U.S. agency for development assistance, which is part of the U.S. State Department." "22 Jan 2004 — Though the NED is officially a private, nongovernmental organization, it gets the lion's share of its funding from the U.S. Treasury; last year, " Testimony, from those so called witness who escape Xinjiang, after what happens with the testimony leading to invasion of Iraq & the fact that they are part of a movement group made by NED, well, IMO they are the joke of the century. not buying any of it or the drama which they still trying HARD to sell
HongKong? China lost the opium war, force to sign the Unequal treaty (en.wikipedia.org), hongkong is part of china, was just taken by force, got rape, and end up experiencing Stockholm syndrome, loving their british/western captors, never once during British occupation hongkongers ever given chance to have an election, now that hongkong do have an election the western countries said democracy being suppress in hongkong, get real... Hongkong riots before covid and how the it was dealt? izzit a violation of humans rights or izzit those rioters just wayyyyy out of line? here is one to consider, not from chinese media, but from western media www.youtube.com And, why not comparing the latest riot with 1967 Hong Kong riots under british rule and how it was handle by the democratic western system?
0-Covid All I know from my Chinese colleague there, it's not how its describe by the western media, it's more of trying to prevent incontrollable spread, there will be case, but how to manage it from spreading like crazy, extreme case like Shanghai lockdown is the last resort. The goals of their 0-Covid strategy is to buy time for the virus to die down or under control or until there is a more effective vaccine, medication or treatment, so, the number of cases won't go crazy like in the US, if I remember correctly, the number of covid cases in the US is around 25% of the total population, if say the same percentage applied on China 1.4 billion population, it will be 350 million cases, with this days covid mortality rate of 1.3%, it will be 4.5million people dead, the 0-Covid strategy and lockdown in an extreme case, actually saves millions of Chinese people lives
FYI, I'm not pro China or anti West, nothing is perfect, the only reason I reply to this issue simply becoz the argument is dead wrong, people get fooled easily when it comes to china issue, I admit, before I went to China, I was one of China hatters, things change when I actually comes there, and willing to actually look for more information before I took the poisonous words come from the western mainstream media or those like SerpentZA (I was his subscriber before I went to China myself lol)
It's hard to see the truth when all the information you receive are all unbalance, wrong, and in the end, I believe you end up with what Psychologist called Cognitive bias (I think, I'm not a Psychologist, just remember someone talk about it somewhere) In the end we believe what we want to believe, so... Peace dudes
User was banned for this post.
Why this guy is banned？？ In Weibo,at Russian-Ukraine war, we can see people support both sides，we can see official accounts of both country post their information. What did this guy done？worse than support Russia？or here has more "censorship" than Chinese internet? is this what "freedom of speach" is? That what I have said，no need to care what you say about us,you just represent a tiny little part of people. ban me pls ,I only need to check starcraftII match infor here
I assume that person was banned for a lot of ad hominem remarks and throwing out some random facts without any sources to back them up and making it "the absolute truth".
On June 14 2022 00:03 KwarK wrote: Sure but it’s missing the whole of the point. The only issue they have with being part of the PRC is that they’re part of the PRC but if you ignore that then they have no complaints with being part of the PRC. The majority of people in Hong Kong want to be in the PRC, they just don’t like being part of the PRC.
A small minority demand independence but the majority just want the right to control their own affairs. It’s an impressive level of double think. On the one hand the people of Hong Kong clearly want to be left alone by Peking but on the other they’re not interested in independence.
You are the one missing the point. You're just talking out of your ass at this point about a topic that you know nothing about while I have lived through it.
His post was mostly disagreeing with some YouTuber called Winston that nobody else was talking about. I think he confused TL with the comment section for that guy’s YouTube videos. It was non stop bad takes (countries should be able to do whatever they like without external judgement if it’s an internal matter?) and lies but I think the bit that most likely annoyed the wrong person was the general attitude of “I’m right, y’all are wrong, anyway peace I’m out”.
Also freedom of speech relates to the government not imprisoning you for saying things they don’t like. Not TL mods.
On June 14 2022 00:03 KwarK wrote: Sure but it’s missing the whole of the point. The only issue they have with being part of the PRC is that they’re part of the PRC but if you ignore that then they have no complaints with being part of the PRC. The majority of people in Hong Kong want to be in the PRC, they just don’t like being part of the PRC.
A small minority demand independence but the majority just want the right to control their own affairs. It’s an impressive level of double think. On the one hand the people of Hong Kong clearly want to be left alone by Peking but on the other they’re not interested in independence.
You are the one missing the point. You're just talking out of your ass at this point about a topic that you know nothing about while I have lived through it.
Dude, we get it. The people of Hong Kong don’t want independence, they just want to be left alone to govern themselves. Couldn’t be simpler.
On June 14 2022 10:11 pebble444 wrote: I’ m surprised no one has mentioned Tibet in this thread yet;
Are we just going to ignore how occupying militarily a peaceful Buddhist country is just legitimate now?
shows real courage, at least bully a country that has an actual army and defenses, not some spiritual center. Weak
It's so much worse then that. They refuse to cooperate with the dali lama and allow him to live in tibet in peace. This has gone on for so long that the current dali lama has said that he can no longer guarantee to his people that the reincarnation cycle of their religion can reliably continue.
China is literally going to perminatly damage Buddhism out of spite. This would be the equivalent of destroying the dome on the rock or marching non Muslim troops through mecca to take the black rock away from mecca.
On June 14 2022 10:11 pebble444 wrote: I’ m surprised no one has mentioned Tibet in this thread yet;
Are we just going to ignore how occupying militarily a peaceful Buddhist country is just legitimate now?
shows real courage, at least bully a country that has an actual army and defenses, not some spiritual center. Weak
The reality is a lot more complicated.
Tibet was independent from China until the Qing Dynasty when it was conquered. The Qing sent governers to rule Tibet, while the Lamas continued to serve as figureheads.
When the Qing Dynasty was overthrown, there was chaos in China. No one really had much spare capacity to deal with Tibet, so in practice they ruled themselves, though the government never relinquished their territorial claims.
When finally the Communists won the Civil War in mainland China, they turned their attention to what they considered a renegade province and decided they should formally implement their Communist system in Tibet. The Dalai Lama rejected this and was forced into exile.
Was it a forced occupation? Yes. Was it an independent country to begin with? No. Even the Dalai Lama does not advocate for formal independence. He is for true self government.
On June 14 2022 10:51 gobbledydook wrote: Was it a forced occupation? Yes. Was it an independent country to begin with? No. Even the Dalai Lama does not advocate for formal independence. He is for true self government.
The period of the Chinese Cultural Revolution was a turbulent one, from 1966 to 1976. The so-called religious persecution may refer to that period. In 1983, China began to crack down on all kinds of crimes. After that, Chinese society became stable and ushered in reform and opening up.At this time, China began to develop at a high speed. Although China is a one party dictatorship, there are actually two factions within it. Similar to the United States, there are Republicans and Democrats. Muslims also have Shiites and Sunnis. There are many corrupt elements in the Chinese government who are caught every year. However, some people say that they are victims of factional struggle. If you want to hear about the various problems of the Chinese government, I am also happy to tell you what the problems are. But many problems do not exist now. They happened 50 years ago. China is also constantly making progress. If it were the same as it was 50 years ago, China would not be targeted by many countries now. Instead, it would pity China, sympathize with China, and look at us with the eyes of refugees. China's space program has been advancing, China's high-speed rail is also very good, and China also has many other good things.
The core problem here is that you see people saying that a bad thing happens in China, and view this as "China is being targeted by other countries, because China is too successful".
Consider viewing stuff through another lense. Maybe some bad things happen in China, and that is why people say that some bad things happen in China?
And maybe countries adjacent to China feel threatened by China because China is threatening them, not because they are jealous of Chinas success?
Although China is a one party dictatorship, there are actually two factions within it. Similar to the United States, there are Republicans and Democrats.
After seeing the Serpentza guy (he's like a Great Value Tucker Carlson) around here it made me wonder more about this.
From what I understand there's basically the "league faction" and the "princelings". I'm curious how you would describe their different perspectives?
On June 14 2022 23:18 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The period of the Chinese Cultural Revolution was a turbulent one, from 1966 to 1976. The so-called religious persecution may refer to that period.
China's high-speed rail is also very good, and China also has many other good things.
China is removing religious symbols from buildings (like fronts of temples etc.) so it's not like they've ceased thwarting religion.
And their high-speed rail is pretty much a dumpster fire at this point. Sure, they developed their rail at an incredible pace but most of it was for show with rails leading nowhere and high cost routes paying for routes that are unsustainable. Now with COVID no routes are profitable any more so a lot of it has become a big liability that's going deeper and deeper into debt. It's $800 billion liability at this point or something crazy like that.
On June 14 2022 23:18 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The period of the Chinese Cultural Revolution was a turbulent one, from 1966 to 1976. The so-called religious persecution may refer to that period.
China's high-speed rail is also very good, and China also has many other good things.
China is removing religious symbols from buildings (like fronts of temples etc.) so it's not like they've ceased thwarting religion.
And their high-speed rail is pretty much a dumpster fire at this point. Sure, they developed their rail at an incredible pace but most of it was for show with rails leading nowhere and high cost routes paying for routes that are unsustainable. Now with COVID no routes are profitable any more so a lot of it has become a big liability that's going deeper and deeper into debt. It's $800 billion liability at this point or something crazy like that.
Eh, the bolded part in particular isn't important - it's about the overall cost/benefit. Not only on ticket sales but also overall economic activity. (I have no idea about the overall numbers but at least prior to covid it must have been a net positive otherwise it wouldn't be pursued by a rational government.) Economic arguments aside, high speed rail likely reduces carbon emissions, especially compared to air travel.
Another thing which is kinda awkward and weird, is while having a direct conversation with someone Chinese, they seem very delusional and wary of critisism towards their own goverment, while for example people from Europe, Africa or NA that I have talked to, have no problem pointing out what could be made better in their own country; It’s almost as if they have this background program in their mind saying “don’ t think freely, that’s dangerous” And if that is the case, can’ t even blame them, but the goverment, for years and years of propaganda, brainwashing, and hiding evident truths.
Tienamin square 1989 comes to mind for example, as there is no greater example of goverment cover up. Actually not even cover up, but probably the goverment is telling a story to make them look good, while the information I have is a tank running over a peaceful university student that is standing up for their rights.
Makes me think there is no cure at this point, the sooner the goverment falls there, the better off actual citizens and human beings will be. Imagine how a free Chinese citizen would be able to live it’s life, compared to the oppression and 1984ism that is going on there right now, as we speak
On June 15 2022 04:37 pebble444 wrote: Makes me think there is no cure at this point, the sooner the goverment falls there, the better off actual citizens and human beings will be. Imagine how a free Chinese citizen would be able to live it’s life, compared to the oppression and 1984ism that is going on there right now, as we speak
Not exactly the case. In Russia a lot of people thought the same after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and these protests were also mostly led by intelligencia, but the rapid fall of the existing government and economy system led to political and economical anarchy in most of post Soviet-states, where a lot of people were literally starving for a decade, which led to the support of the authocratic or oligarchic regimes in most of these states, because people stopped caring about democracy and freedoms, they cared about what they and their children would eat tomorrow. In the meantime, all financial streams flew into the hands of either organized crime or simply shady enterpreneurs, which later formed the core of the political and economical elites on the most territory of the former Soviet Union, On the other hand, Chinese government halted these movements at Tiananmen square, and enjoyed a rapid economic growth during three decades after that. A lot of Chinese, comparing their situation with the one of their neighbours, could think that their government has made the right choice.
Did the Iraq war make people's living standards better? Did the war in Afghanistan make people's living standards better? China has a population of 1.4 billion. If there were turmoil and civil war in China, there would not be as few as millions of refugees. There might be hundreds of millions of refugees. The improvement of the living standards of the Chinese people has been a matter of nearly 30 years. Our previous generation also suffered from hunger. For the Chinese people now, especially under the current epidemic situation, the biggest appeal is to have a good living standard, education, medical care and housing conditions. As long as the living standard continues to improve and the people's education level has also been improved (now there are 10million college graduates every year), there will be other higher demands. I don't know what will happen in 20 years. At present, the biggest problem facing China is the population problem. This year, the death population will exceed the birth population. China's population will have a negative growth from 2022. In the past 20 years, the annual birth rate has decreased from 18million to 10million, which will continue to decrease. Population aging will be a very serious problem. The amount of social security paid by young people is not enough to provide for the elderly. This problem has occurred in several provinces in China.
On June 15 2022 12:25 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: Did the Iraq war make people's living standards better? Did the war in Afghanistan make people's living standards better? China has a population of 1.4 billion. If there were turmoil and civil war in China, there would not be as few as millions of refugees. There might be hundreds of millions of refugees. The improvement of the living standards of the Chinese people has been a matter of nearly 30 years. Our previous generation also suffered from hunger. For the Chinese people now, especially under the current epidemic situation, the biggest appeal is to have a good living standard, education, medical care and housing conditions. As long as the living standard continues to improve and the people's education level has also been improved (now there are 10million college graduates every year), there will be other higher demands. I don't know what will happen in 20 years. At present, the biggest problem facing China is the population problem. This year, the death population will exceed the birth population. China's population will have a negative growth from 2022. In the past 20 years, the annual birth rate has decreased from 18million to 10million, which will continue to decrease. Population aging will be a very serious problem. The amount of social security paid by young people is not enough to provide for the elderly. This problem has occurred in several provinces in China.
I don't want to dig into it but yeah the wars did make their living standards better. Its not the USA's fault that the people didn't want to have a functioning government. Women actually went to school and had freedoms in Afghanistan at the least and they can't leave their homes now that we've left. Iraq may be in a state of perpetual termoil due to the euros carving straight lines in the desert but peoples interests are actually being represented more than Chinese people get representation.
But people shouldn't sleep on the end of this guys post. China has the fastest ageing population in all human history and they're facing a demographic bomb the likes of which the world has never seen before. People are saying seriously that the Chinese population will halve in the next 30 years.
Chinese levels of education by workforce is still horrid by even middle income standards. 10m a year isn't that great when you're working with a billion people. the majority of the Chinese workforce for its economic boom has been uneducated migrant workers from the interior coming in droves to fill factory jobs. They're running out of those people now and never invested in those rural areas to make them productive on the level of their urban areas.
On June 15 2022 04:37 pebble444 wrote: Makes me think there is no cure at this point, the sooner the goverment falls there, the better off actual citizens and human beings will be. Imagine how a free Chinese citizen would be able to live it’s life, compared to the oppression and 1984ism that is going on there right now, as we speak
Not exactly the case. In Russia a lot of people thought the same after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and these protests were also mostly led by intelligencia, but the rapid fall of the existing government and economy system led to political and economical anarchy in most of post Soviet-states, where a lot of people were literally starving for a decade, which led to the support of the authocratic or oligarchic regimes in most of these states, because people stopped caring about democracy and freedoms, they cared about what they and their children would eat tomorrow. In the meantime, all financial streams flew into the hands of either organized crime or simply shady enterpreneurs, which later formed the core of the political and economical elites on the most territory of the former Soviet Union, On the other hand, Chinese government halted these movements at Tiananmen square, and enjoyed a rapid economic growth during three decades after that. A lot of Chinese, comparing their situation with the one of their neighbours, could think that their government has made the right choice.
It would probably be hard to look at Hong Kong and Taiwan and think our government made the right choice. Unless of course you had a very skewed look based on information fed to you by those in power since childhood.
Taiwan up to the 1988 was an autocratic regime, that was oppressing its citizens (though their living standards under Chiang Kai-Shek and his son were still miles better than in mainland China at this point). After that, quality of life in mainland China was growing more rapidly than in Taiwan, if we compare the starting conditions at 1988. Comparing a city with an economy focused on finances and trade with a whole country, whose economy is focused more on production is not entirely correct. The more accurate comparison of Hong Kong would be with Shanghai or Beijing for example. If you talked about civil liberties, rather than economic progress, then there is also a national mentality to consider. 5Drush wrote some about it in the post above. And that what I was talking about in my post, in response to the phrase "the sooner government falls, the better citizens will be". When you rapidly collapse a government and political system of a giant country with internal national issues and population that isn't accustomed to self-governance and has fundamental views, and then leave them be, it is naive to expect that they would soon somehow build a prosperous and flourishing democracy.
On June 14 2022 23:18 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The period of the Chinese Cultural Revolution was a turbulent one, from 1966 to 1976. The so-called religious persecution may refer to that period.
China's high-speed rail is also very good, and China also has many other good things.
China is removing religious symbols from buildings (like fronts of temples etc.) so it's not like they've ceased thwarting religion.
And their high-speed rail is pretty much a dumpster fire at this point. Sure, they developed their rail at an incredible pace but most of it was for show with rails leading nowhere and high cost routes paying for routes that are unsustainable. Now with COVID no routes are profitable any more so a lot of it has become a big liability that's going deeper and deeper into debt. It's $800 billion liability at this point or something crazy like that.
Eh, the bolded part in particular isn't important - it's about the overall cost/benefit. Not only on ticket sales but also overall economic activity. (I have no idea about the overall numbers but at least prior to covid it must have been a net positive otherwise it wouldn't be pursued by a rational government.) Economic arguments aside, high speed rail likely reduces carbon emissions, especially compared to air travel.
I have also bolded out an important part. You assume that the Chinese government acts rationally
On June 14 2022 23:18 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The period of the Chinese Cultural Revolution was a turbulent one, from 1966 to 1976. The so-called religious persecution may refer to that period.
China's high-speed rail is also very good, and China also has many other good things.
China is removing religious symbols from buildings (like fronts of temples etc.) so it's not like they've ceased thwarting religion.
And their high-speed rail is pretty much a dumpster fire at this point. Sure, they developed their rail at an incredible pace but most of it was for show with rails leading nowhere and high cost routes paying for routes that are unsustainable. Now with COVID no routes are profitable any more so a lot of it has become a big liability that's going deeper and deeper into debt. It's $800 billion liability at this point or something crazy like that.
Eh, the bolded part in particular isn't important - it's about the overall cost/benefit. Not only on ticket sales but also overall economic activity. (I have no idea about the overall numbers but at least prior to covid it must have been a net positive otherwise it wouldn't be pursued by a rational government.) Economic arguments aside, high speed rail likely reduces carbon emissions, especially compared to air travel.
I have also bolded out an important part. You assume that the Chinese government acts rationally
This opinion piece is suggesting that other governments may have made mistakes in (1) connecting to China with high speed rail when they perhaps can't afford it and (2) having a Chinese company build domestic rail network. The arguments regarding Indonesia in particular seem really flimsy (2 hrs under light traffic - what if it's heavy? also again, environmental impacts are not considered at all). Regardless, these are not arguments for why the rail network is bad for China, rather it seems the opposite.
Safety is definitely a concern, but apparently the overall safety record is fairly good (see the wiki, with NYT cited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China). I'm not intimately familiar with the economics of the rail, but again, I think it makes sense to look at the overall cost/benefit of the rail system. One estimate seems to suggest that it's a net positive (https://macropolo.org/digital-projects/high-speed-rail/introduction/). Maybe some of the Chinese posters have a better idea about the economics of the situation.
On June 15 2022 23:53 emperorchampion wrote: I'm not intimately familiar with the economics of the rail, but again, I think it makes sense to look at the overall cost/benefit of the rail system.
Rail in general is a very good system that's useful for transporting large numbers of people and cargo reliably (railroads are USA's most profitable industry). High speed rail seems to not be as profitable though.
Studies have found that high‐speed trains can generate new economic development near the stations where the trains stop. However, the same studies show that economic development slows in communities not served by such trains. On a nationwide basis, high‐speed rail is thus a zero‐sum gain: as a study of the proposed California high‐speed rail line concluded, “The economic development impacts of the California HSR project are likely to be more redistributive than generative.
Far from boosting the economy, most countries that have built high‐speed rail systems have gone heavily into debt to do so. Even if the first lines make economic sense, political pressures demand that the countries build more and more lines that are less and less sensible. Financing these lines requires huge amounts of debt that can significantly harm the national economies.
China has built more miles of high‐speed rail than any other country and has gone more into debt doing it. At the end of 2019, China’s state railway had nearly $850 billion worth of debt, and most of its high‐speed rail lines aren’t covering their operating costs, much less their capital costs. As a result, China is slowing the rate at which it is constructing new lines.
So if Chinese railways were very heavy into debt pre-covid and their hsr couldn't even cover their operating costs imagine what their economic situation must be now with all the lockdowns, less people using mass transit systems etc.
On June 15 2022 23:53 emperorchampion wrote: I'm not intimately familiar with the economics of the rail, but again, I think it makes sense to look at the overall cost/benefit of the rail system.
Rail in general is a very good system that's useful for transporting large numbers of people and cargo reliably (railroads are USA's most profitable industry). High speed rail seems to not be as profitable though.
Studies have found that high‐speed trains can generate new economic development near the stations where the trains stop. However, the same studies show that economic development slows in communities not served by such trains. On a nationwide basis, high‐speed rail is thus a zero‐sum gain: as a study of the proposed California high‐speed rail line concluded, “The economic development impacts of the California HSR project are likely to be more redistributive than generative.
Far from boosting the economy, most countries that have built high‐speed rail systems have gone heavily into debt to do so. Even if the first lines make economic sense, political pressures demand that the countries build more and more lines that are less and less sensible. Financing these lines requires huge amounts of debt that can significantly harm the national economies.
China has built more miles of high‐speed rail than any other country and has gone more into debt doing it. At the end of 2019, China’s state railway had nearly $850 billion worth of debt, and most of its high‐speed rail lines aren’t covering their operating costs, much less their capital costs. As a result, China is slowing the rate at which it is constructing new lines.
So if Chinese railways were very heavy into debt pre-covid and their hsr couldn't even cover their operating costs imagine what their economic situation must be now with all the lockdowns, less people using mass transit systems etc.
I agree that traditional rail is likely better when it comes to transporting other stuff. All mass transit has taken a hit over the last few years. Problem is that mass transit seems very necessary to reduce dependance on fossil fuels, and will likely rebound over the next few months. But yeah in the end I agree it's reasonable to be doubtful about high speed rail's pay off over the next few years, especially if countries build too many networks.
On June 15 2022 04:37 pebble444 wrote: Makes me think there is no cure at this point, the sooner the goverment falls there, the better off actual citizens and human beings will be. Imagine how a free Chinese citizen would be able to live it’s life, compared to the oppression and 1984ism that is going on there right now, as we speak
Not exactly the case. In Russia a lot of people thought the same after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and these protests were also mostly led by intelligencia, but the rapid fall of the existing government and economy system led to political and economical anarchy in most of post Soviet-states, where a lot of people were literally starving for a decade, which led to the support of the authocratic or oligarchic regimes in most of these states, because people stopped caring about democracy and freedoms, they cared about what they and their children would eat tomorrow. In the meantime, all financial streams flew into the hands of either organized crime or simply shady enterpreneurs, which later formed the core of the political and economical elites on the most territory of the former Soviet Union, On the other hand, Chinese government halted these movements at Tiananmen square, and enjoyed a rapid economic growth during three decades after that. A lot of Chinese, comparing their situation with the one of their neighbours, could think that their government has made the right choice.
It would probably be hard to look at Hong Kong and Taiwan and think our government made the right choice. Unless of course you had a very skewed look based on information fed to you by those in power since childhood.
Taiwan up to the 1988 was an autocratic regime, that was oppressing its citizens (though their living standards under Chiang Kai-Shek and his son were still miles better than in mainland China at this point). After that, quality of life in mainland China was growing more rapidly than in Taiwan, if we compare the starting conditions at 1988. Comparing a city with an economy focused on finances and trade with a whole country, whose economy is focused more on production is not entirely correct. The more accurate comparison of Hong Kong would be with Shanghai or Beijing for example. If you talked about civil liberties, rather than economic progress, then there is also a national mentality to consider. 5Drush wrote some about it in the post above. And that what I was talking about in my post, in response to the phrase "the sooner government falls, the better citizens will be". When you rapidly collapse a government and political system of a giant country with internal national issues and population that isn't accustomed to self-governance and has fundamental views, and then leave them be, it is naive to expect that they would soon somehow build a prosperous and flourishing democracy.
The USSR states are actually doing quite well a lot better than they were under USSR control. You think Poland, East Germany and so on want USSR back? Many believe Russia big reason to attack the Ukraine is because it, with way less resources, was starting to have have a middle class and poor that was doing better off than Russia. As for Iraq, that is just silly, they had it awful under Sadam and it really has not overall gotten better, just depends on what group you are a part of.
If you were to poll people in HK or Taiwan, how many want to be under the CCP control? progress is great but if you are 7/10 and were a 6/10 are you looking at the people that were a 1/10 and are now a 3/10 and saying maybe we want them it is more progress?
Also, you surely are not if you are Uighur, Tibetan, basically any religion. I'm sure there are many Han Chinese who are happy with the status quo. But really no one has any idea of how many because it is not like you can run a poll. Everything on that is presumption because the government will not let it happen, to the point where public criticism will land you in jail.
It is fine to point out the economic gain, it is fine to point that much of that gain has gone to the billionaire class and some to the people. It is great to point out all the good and the bad. Things are not black and white, there is a ton of grey.
I'm not sure why you are mentioning Poland and East Germany when I was talking precisely about USSR and the states it fell apart into. As for them - you could only speculate, what USSR would be like if it existed now. My point was people were so sick of the chaos that followed, that they often were ready to support anyone, who could provide stable economical environment and food on the table. That's why even Putin still has much support from people, especially the elderly, who remember the 90's well and trust the person who ended that shitfest (or, at least, has such image).
Ukraine war has nothing to do with living standards, on average they were the same, with no indication of rapid Ukraine economy growth (an that I know from my own experience and experience of people I actually know from the both sides of the border) Also in this conversation I've never said anything about Iraq.
Again, I'm not sure why you in your first post you talk about the opinion of mainlaind China population towards Hong Kong and Taiwan, and in second you talk about opinion of Hong Kong and Taiwan population towards mainland China. Of course Hong Kong and Taiwan wouldn't want Chinese control over them, since they are accustomed to the way they live and they are richer at the moment. But it doesn't mean mainland China population would want to rush into Taibei governance, since they see how rapidly their own life improved in last few decades (it would be more like from 0,5/10 to 5/10) and they don't have the reason to distrust their government to provide them with further prosperity. And about wealth distribution - CIA Gini index gives China 38,2% and Taiwan - 33,6%. Not that far apart, and in fact it is lower that US (41,4%). https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coefficient-by-country
As for minorities - yeah, you either Han, or in trouble. CCP learned from USSR, which was supporting national ethnicity and national elites, and it led to it's downfall. So they don't want that kind of trouble for themselves.
In fact, China has been changing all the time, including the Chinese government and the Chinese people. The situation is completely different in different years. My grandparents hated the United States and Japan. Some of their elders died in the war and were educated to hate the United States and Japan。 My parents' generation is not much worse. When they were young, they lived in poverty, and later they got better I didn't need to worry about food when I was a child. My life has been much better, but I also need to study politics when I was studying. Maybe the world has this course for China and North Korea. My children's life is better now. The food is very good. They will be provided with different fruits for each meal. Many children have mobile phones and computers. Their own savings amount to tens of thousands of yuan, which was unthinkable when we were young.Now there is no political course in the school. It has been changed to morality and legal system. In fact, in addition to the central government, governments at all levels are often criticized. In the current network age and information age, as long as it is exposed to the whole society, local government officials are often dismissed or imprisoned for improper handling. Of course, we often roast about why the government does not deal with the problems in advance and only remedy them after they are exposed by the media. As for Hong Kong, the mainlanders are also dissatisfied. During the financial crisis, they need the help and protection of the mainland, but they are not grateful. They only want rights but not obligations. Older people feel that they belong to China, while young people may feel that they are not Chinese. In the 1990s, the Mainlanders may envy Hong Kong's economic development. Now they find that Hong Kong people actually live in a small house of 10 square meters, The income is only enough to live. It is far worse than the mainland. No one envies Hong Kong any more.
@ [JXSA].Zergling: Thanks for the quality posts sharing your perspective on China's political development.
Hong Kong people actually live in a small house of 10 square meters, The income is only enough to live. It is far worse than the mainland. No one envies Hong Kong any more.
I remember reading/watching about the cage homes there about a decade ago (the juxtaposition of abject poverty and obscene wealth is something else), Hong Kong certainly has problems of their own making not caused by the mainland government.
You mentioned two issues, one is Xinjiang, the other is Hong Kong.
As for Xinjiang, I really don't live in Xinjiang, so my knowledge is limited. I have two classmates who have worked in Kashgar, Xinjiang for three years, and I have friends who live in Urumqi, Xinjiang. I also have 7-8 friends who have traveled to Xinjiang, but I haven't been there. I can only learn from their words that ordinary people in Xinjiang are very satisfied with the status quo and hate terrorists very much. Both Uighurs and Han people living in Xinjiang have a good life, and life safety is their biggest appeal. As for what millions of people are imprisoned by the government, my friends and I who have lived and worked in Xinjiang think it is absurd and not worth refuting. If you believe it, I can do nothing.
As for Hong Kong, this is a very complicated issue, but if you want to say oppression, it does not exist. Can you tell me more about how the government oppressed the people of Hong Kong? In fact, Hong Kong is caused by economic problems. The high housing prices and the huge pressure of job competition. They just threw these real-life pressures on the Chinese government because of various problems caused by the downturn of Hong Kong's economy.
I don't want to defend anyone. I just want to share the real life and current situation in China.The improvement of the living standards of ordinary people is a result of our own efforts, not of charity.There are lazy people around us. Their life will be very poor.
On June 16 2022 11:55 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: You mentioned two issues, one is Xinjiang, the other is Hong Kong.
As for Xinjiang, I really don't live in Xinjiang, so my knowledge is limited. I have two classmates who have worked in Kashgar, Xinjiang for three years, and I have friends who live in Urumqi, Xinjiang. I also have 7-8 friends who have traveled to Xinjiang, but I haven't been there. I can only learn from their words that ordinary people in Xinjiang are very satisfied with the status quo and hate terrorists very much. Both Uighurs and Han people living in Xinjiang have a good life, and life safety is their biggest appeal. As for what millions of people are imprisoned by the government, my friends and I who have lived and worked in Xinjiang think it is absurd and not worth refuting. If you believe it, I can do nothing.
As for Hong Kong, this is a very complicated issue, but if you want to say oppression, it does not exist. Can you tell me more about how the government oppressed the people of Hong Kong? In fact, Hong Kong is caused by economic problems. The high housing prices and the huge pressure of job competition. They just threw these real-life pressures on the Chinese government because of various problems caused by the downturn of Hong Kong's economy.
I don't want to defend anyone. I just want to share the real life and current situation in China.The improvement of the living standards of ordinary people is a result of our own efforts, not of charity.There are lazy people around us. Their life will be very poor.
What a load of horse shit.
No Uyghur would dare saying how they feel to you or your friends. In fact, they are so scared now, they would not share their pain with anyone that is not a blood relative.
People, farmers, teachers, professors, journalists are all being locked up, Uyghur isnt even taught in school anymore. WHAT are you talking about here?Have a good life? Happy with the status quo? Are you serious?
Were the Chinese people happy with the status quo when Japan invaded and occupied some cities? NO WAY, still in school books and Chinese films Japan is blasted into oblivion. Even the Ching dynasty, Rulers being of non Han, is mocked and spat on in SCHOOL BOOKS!
No Uyghur is satisfied by life in Xinjiang, they want you and your 7,8 friends and CCP gone, back home to China and leave them along. CCP is the only terrorist in China.
Stop lying, you are defending CCP policies and the oppression in Xinjiang, stop spreading lies, stop pretending to be soft and impartial, you are not fooling anyone.
The Uyghurs have suffered enough under the CCP, you dont seem to know and you dont seem qualitied to speak on their behalf.
The Han chinese are benifitting from all government policies in Xinjiang, the strategy is to migrate as many from inner China as possible to tip the population balance, in the 1950s there were 5% Han Chinese in Xinjiang, Now close to 50%. Han youth are constantly shown Uyghur females portrayed as beautiful dancers to encourage inter ethnicity marriage so that the population is even more diluted. Some families are threatened and promised money.
China has invaded Xinjiang and Tibet, CCP aims to wipe out their languages, culture and take those land forever. That is whats happening, stop sugarcoating and bullshiting around.
oh on the point about life being so much better for most of the Chinese people nowadays. Yes it is true, millions have been saved from poverty and hunger, the economic advancement is real.
But.... Uyghurs and Tibetans are different people, their social structure and culture were completely different, and frankly those areas very sparsely populated and did not suffer from famine as much.
It is a shame another culture with a bigger population comes in, destroys all the culture, community and most of all, spiritual aspects of a group of people. And then says "oh look, we all have cars, smartphones and our kids nice and fat now"
That is not all life or cultural development is about, that is not what makes everyone happy. Sadly China is a train full speed ahead in consurmerism, eating more and bigger, spending, driving etc. thousand year old Kashgar has been demolished, all the spiritual sites in the taklamakan desert shut or removed with saints' bones scattered, and the reason is always " BUT BUT YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL, We brought you progress, and smartphones!"
On June 14 2022 10:51 gobbledydook wrote: Was it a forced occupation? Yes. Was it an independent country to begin with? No. Even the Dalai Lama does not advocate for formal independence. He is for true self government.
But isn't self government a form of independence?
Scotland has self government. It has its own parliament. It is also most definitely not independent.
Independence has a very specific meaning - that you are sovereign and don't belong to another country legally. It is of great symbolic significance.
On June 16 2022 13:28 Samsakzerg wrote: oh on the point about life being so much better for most of the Chinese people nowadays. Yes it is true, millions have been saved from poverty and hunger, the economic advancement is real.
But.... Uyghurs and Tibetans are different people, their social structure and culture were completely different, and frankly those areas very sparsely populated and did not suffer from famine as much.
It is a shame another culture with a bigger population comes in, destroys all the culture, community and most of all, spiritual aspects of a group of people. And then says "oh look, we all have cars, smartphones and our kids nice and fat now"
That is not all life or cultural development is about, that is not what makes everyone happy. Sadly China is a train full speed ahead in consurmerism, eating more and bigger, spending, driving etc. thousand year old Kashgar has been demolished, all the spiritual sites in the taklamakan desert shut or removed with saints' bones scattered, and the reason is always " BUT BUT YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL, We brought you progress, and smartphones!"
It is quite sad but the Communist Party has always been a racist institute. No ethnic minorities are represented in the Politburo for example. No wonder the rights and opinions of the ethnic minorities such as the Uyghurs and Tibetans are ignored.
On June 14 2022 10:51 gobbledydook wrote: Was it a forced occupation? Yes. Was it an independent country to begin with? No. Even the Dalai Lama does not advocate for formal independence. He is for true self government.
But isn't self government a form of independence?
Scotland has self government. It has its own parliament. It is also most definitely not independent.
Independence has a very specific meaning - that you are sovereign and don't belong to another country legally. It is of great symbolic significance.
Scotland has some administrative independence but they're still out of the EU despite voting to stay. Where it counts they don't govern themselves.
On June 14 2022 10:51 gobbledydook wrote: Was it a forced occupation? Yes. Was it an independent country to begin with? No. Even the Dalai Lama does not advocate for formal independence. He is for true self government.
But isn't self government a form of independence?
Scotland has self government. It has its own parliament. It is also most definitely not independent.
Independence has a very specific meaning - that you are sovereign and don't belong to another country legally. It is of great symbolic significance.
Scotland has some administrative independence but they're still out of the EU despite voting to stay. Where it counts they don't govern themselves.
Generally speaking foreign policy is one of the key indicators of independence. As you just proved, Scotland is not independent.
I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
I'm watching wtl's game and tl's forum at same time, and I found this post, registered this account. If you think I'm really a robot, then there's nothing I can do, maybe we can talk about something else lol
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Thats not sand thats airborne pollution or smog. They had to shut down swathes of power plants and heavy manufacturing for like 60 days or something so that it would be clean enough on television.
It got really really really bad back in 2013 but they've been doing a lot to try and help out the situation.
On June 19 2022 00:09 evilfatsh1t wrote: account made this month and first post in the china thread. "i am not a propaganda robot"
Are you familiar with the term "wumao"?
of course i know that The word was placed at the end of a sentence, presumably meaning that this sentence was said by a robot or that someone had paid me to say it . The word can be a joke or used to accuse the other person of being hired to tell a lie. It's quite complicated lol "wumao" is RMB ,which is 0.5 yuan.
On June 19 2022 00:59 Sermokala wrote: Thats not sand thats airborne pollution or smog. They had to shut down swathes of power plants and heavy manufacturing for like 60 days or something so that it would be clean enough on television.
It got really really really bad back in 2013 but they've been doing a lot to try and help out the situation.
At first, I thought the same thing you would, but this filter is used in various parts of China, even in some places with very good scenery where i have been there .but that place never have pollution or smog. so.. quite weird ，right？
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
On June 19 2022 00:59 Sermokala wrote: Thats not sand thats airborne pollution or smog. They had to shut down swathes of power plants and heavy manufacturing for like 60 days or something so that it would be clean enough on television.
It got really really really bad back in 2013 but they've been doing a lot to try and help out the situation.
At first, I thought the same thing you would, but this filter is used in various parts of China, even in some places with very good scenery where i have been there .but that place never have pollution or smog. so.. quite weird ，right？
If they have air as I presume in these good scenery places then they have pollution.
Unless there is a unique reason from geography that they don't receive wind patterns from the gobi desert or from other parts of urbanized china I don't see whats weird about it just because its pretty no.
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version。
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Why can't you just link them?
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version。
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
I guess to me the fact that a dictatorship has a dictator is unremarkable. That’s the least concerning thing with what the Chinese government does. The human rights abuses and environmental problems are a bigger issue than a dictator taking his mask off.
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version。
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
I guess to me the fact that a dictatorship has a dictator is unremarkable. That’s the least concerning thing with what the Chinese government does. The human rights abuses and environmental problems are a bigger issue than a dictator taking his mask off.
I agree. This is not Hollywood with people getting their feelings hurts. This is about hundreds of thousands of people being oppressed just because they are trying to live their life, just like me and you.
The delusion, gaslighting, and ignoring that is going on from chinas “privileged” citizens, the fact that they ignore any confrontation, anything that is truly going on in their own home, is nothing new, just sad.
I guess people who don’ t live there care more about the sad reality of what is going on there.
China has a great history, but the people who live comfortable lives there are being brainwashed, and those who are under a regime, are not free to speak in this thread.
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version。
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
I guess to me the fact that a dictatorship has a dictator is unremarkable. That’s the least concerning thing with what the Chinese government does. The human rights abuses and environmental problems are a bigger issue than a dictator taking his mask off.
I agree. This is not Hollywood with people getting their feelings hurts. This is about hundreds of thousands of people being oppressed just because they are trying to live their life, just like me and you.
The delusion, gaslighting, and ignoring that is going on from chinas “privileged” citizens, the fact that they ignore any confrontation, anything that is truly going on in their own home, is nothing new, just sad.
I guess people who don’ t live there care more about the sad reality of what is going on there.
China has a great history, but the people who live comfortable lives there are being brainwashed, and those who are under a regime, are not free to speak in this thread.
Free china at this point?
Fine, I can't help it. You accuse China of human rights and environmental problems. I tell you that the facts have been distorted. you should come to china and see what happened here by your own eyes.then you would say i was brainwashed. ..... it's a endless discuss. Why do you always think that there are people living in hell in China? if this make you feel good Then feel free . to tell the truth. i dont want to talk about politics anymore here. It seems to only spread hatred and antagonism. we live in the same planet. talk to each other by the wires in the bottom of oceans. But we only blame each other . China is a good place. i really want to share the interesting things to you gays. In your language，I am a patriot. but i am not the one who dont have brain . we accuse our goverment almost everyday .and it works .So ,my dear friend across the ocean . I'm trying to tell you for the last time that China does have environmental problems, but there is absolutely no apartheid in China, and if there is, believe me, I will, Chinese will drive this government out of China . You probably know that Chinese trust their government very much. The reason I trust the government is that when we find a problem with the government, it will indeed correct it . this government is not Perfect. but it's good enough. Now I'm going to the village and helping the villagers make money . bye
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
It's really blizzare to see people not even try to make arguments or construct anything resembling reason or logic to defend their points. I just don't see what's the point of putting what has to be effort into something that's so devoid of purpose.
I mean the posters who say they're from China recycle the same basic information that doesn't make sense and that they don't even pretend to come up with a lie for. Why would anyone want to go to a nation that we believe is polluted and tyrannical? That's not going to persuade the most brainwashed qanon truther. At least the flat earthers keep trying to come up with things to convince themselves. If you're not going to even try to do anything why do you keep posting nonsense statements like they would persuade even you?
On June 19 2022 13:02 Sermokala wrote: Those links don't work.
It's really blizzare to see people not even try to make arguments or construct anything resembling reason or logic to defend their points. I just don't see what's the point of putting what has to be effort into something that's so devoid of purpose.
I mean the posters who say they're from China recycle the same basic information that doesn't make sense and that they don't even pretend to come up with a lie for. Why would anyone want to go to a nation that we believe is polluted and tyrannical? That's not going to persuade the most brainwashed qanon truther. At least the flat earthers keep trying to come up with things to convince themselves. If you're not going to even try to do anything why do you keep posting nonsense statements like they would persuade even you?
i got it . you want me to show you evidence about apartheid ,the religion issue and so on . I would like to give an example。How did you know that Germany set up concentration camps and slaughtered Jews during World War II?It should be through pictures, videos or memorials in Germany, Poland and other places，right? but i am just a normal person lives in china ,you dont believe chinese medias , i can't go to xinjiang to interview everyone lives in xinjiang to ask if they were tortured by CCP .Because xinjiang is too far and big. urumchi（the capital of xinjiang）is 3000km far from where i am live. Xinjiang is almost five times the size of Germany . I once traveled in Xinjiang for a month in 2016. I've been to a lot of places in Xinjiang . I asked the locals if they knew that foreigners said the CCP was oppressing ethnic minorities. They would laugh at me and ask if there was something wrong with my brain . So, I really don't know how to prove this thing. A recording? A video? You will say that these people were forced to say so.
So, my conclusion is that if you are a foreigner who really cares about the lives of the people of Xinjiang. Then I recommend you to come here instead of posting in a forum, which is very hypocritical and irresponsible.
By the way, I do know that the Uighur population in Xinjiang increased by 1865061 between 2010 and 2020. If ccps are in apartheid, the execution is also too poor.
I tried to find the URL encoding of the image, but failed, why can't this forum directly post the picture? This forum is a little different from the Chinese forum, and I haven't learned how to operate it yet
This is the best visual example I've seen of the alleged color alterations.
I wasn't able to dig up the actual youtube videos. I'd say it reminds me of the known Hollywood aesthetic of making Mexico sepia, sometimes referred to as a "third world filter", which is certainly prevalent in western entertainment media.
That said, while western media certainly has biases in what they show and how they show it, it doesn't appear like that particular issue continues now (on BBC) if it did happen.
On June 19 2022 13:02 Sermokala wrote: Those links don't work.
It's really blizzare to see people not even try to make arguments or construct anything resembling reason or logic to defend their points. I just don't see what's the point of putting what has to be effort into something that's so devoid of purpose.
I mean the posters who say they're from China recycle the same basic information that doesn't make sense and that they don't even pretend to come up with a lie for. Why would anyone want to go to a nation that we believe is polluted and tyrannical? That's not going to persuade the most brainwashed qanon truther. At least the flat earthers keep trying to come up with things to convince themselves. If you're not going to even try to do anything why do you keep posting nonsense statements like they would persuade even you?
i got it . you want me to show you evidence about apartheid ,the religion issue and so on . I would like to give an example。How did you know that Germany set up concentration camps and slaughtered Jews during World War II?It should be through pictures, videos or memorials in Germany, Poland and other places，right? but i am just a normal person lives in china ,you dont believe chinese medias , i can't go to xinjiang to interview everyone lives in xinjiang to ask if they were tortured by CCP .Because xinjiang is too far and big. urumchi（the capital of xinjiang）is 3000km far from where i am live. Xinjiang is almost five times the size of Germany . I once traveled in Xinjiang for a month in 2016. I've been to a lot of places in Xinjiang . I asked the locals if they knew that foreigners said the CCP was oppressing ethnic minorities. They would laugh at me and ask if there was something wrong with my brain . So, I really don't know how to prove this thing. A recording? A video? You will say that these people were forced to say so.
So, my conclusion is that if you are a foreigner who really cares about the lives of the people of Xinjiang. Then I recommend you to come here instead of posting in a forum, which is very hypocritical and irresponsible.
By the way, I do know that the Uighur population in Xinjiang increased by 1865061 between 2010 and 2020. If ccps are in apartheid, the execution is also too poor.
I tried to find the URL encoding of the image, but failed, why can't this forum directly post the picture? This forum is a little different from the Chinese forum, and I haven't learned how to operate it yet
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
It's been discussed at length in the West.
So still no evidence? How come it's so difficult to find examples if BBC is supposedly doing this all the time?
On June 19 2022 15:19 GreenHorizons wrote: This is the best visual example I've seen of the alleged color alterations.
I wasn't able to dig up the actual youtube videos. I'd say it reminds me of the known Hollywood aesthetic of making Mexico sepia, sometimes referred to as a "third world filter", which is certainly prevalent in western entertainment media.
That said, while western media certainly has biases in what they show and how they show it, it doesn't appear like that particular issue continues now (on BBC) if it did happen.
You can literally go to YouTube and search "BBC China", and not find a single example of this filter being used, but you'd rather believe some propaganda account on Twitter that won't provide any original sources. Perhaps you shouldn't fall for the propaganda of your favourite fascist dictatorship so easily. ;-)
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
It's been discussed at length in the West.
So still no evidence? How come it's so difficult to find examples if BBC is supposedly doing this all the time?
I wasn't able to dig up the actual youtube videos. I'd say it reminds me of the known Hollywood aesthetic of making Mexico sepia, sometimes referred to as a "third world filter", which is certainly prevalent in western entertainment media.
That said, while western media certainly has biases in what they show and how they show it, it doesn't appear like that particular issue continues now (on BBC) if it did happen.
You can literally go to YouTube and search "BBC China", and not find a single example of this filter being used, but you'd rather believe some propaganda account on Twitter that won't provide any original sources. Perhaps you shouldn't fall for the propaganda of your favourite fascist dictatorship so easily. ;-)
As in I didn't dig up the specific video seen in the tweet to either confirm or refute the allegations. Allegations I said I didn't see the BBC doing currently.
I went ahead and dug deeper into it and... They definitely did it
The clips from the tweet are from these two videos
BBC News English:
BBC News Chinese
I went from skeptical but not dismissive to discovering this example of western propaganda covering this.
A cyber security company that supposedly sees $200,000,000+ in annual revenue got cited by Wired in a western propaganda piece about this and neither of them bothered to acknowledge the readily apparent discordance between the videos in their reporting.
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
It's been discussed at length in the West.
So still no evidence? How come it's so difficult to find examples if BBC is supposedly doing this all the time?
On June 19 2022 15:19 GreenHorizons wrote: This is the best visual example I've seen of the alleged color alterations.
I wasn't able to dig up the actual youtube videos. I'd say it reminds me of the known Hollywood aesthetic of making Mexico sepia, sometimes referred to as a "third world filter", which is certainly prevalent in western entertainment media.
That said, while western media certainly has biases in what they show and how they show it, it doesn't appear like that particular issue continues now (on BBC) if it did happen.
You can literally go to YouTube and search "BBC China", and not find a single example of this filter being used, but you'd rather believe some propaganda account on Twitter that won't provide any original sources. Perhaps you shouldn't fall for the propaganda of your favourite fascist dictatorship so easily. ;-)
As in I didn't dig up the specific video seen in the tweet to either confirm or refute the allegations. Allegations I said I didn't see the BBC doing currently.
I went ahead and dug deeper into it and... They definitely did it
The clips from the tweet are from these two videos
I went from skeptical but not dismissive to discovering this example of western propaganda covering this.
A cyber security company that supposedly sees $200,000,000+ in annual revenue got cited by Wired in a western propaganda piece about this and neither of them bothered to acknowledge the readily apparent discordance between the videos in their reporting.
Good find. But what's more likely: that it was some technical screw-up (I watch their coverage on the war in Ukraine on YouTube and they have plenty of issues with sound, for example) or that BBC had some ulterior motive and applied some filter to make look China bad? When I google "BBC China filter" all I get is this one video. I've checked some 10-15 videos on China on BBC's YouTube channel and all of them looked perfectly normal.
Here are some examples of videos uploaded on both of their channels:
On June 18 2022 23:38 Yancychen wrote: I am a Chinese who liked to play StarCraft and stumbled upon this section. I guess none of you who think there is apartheid in Tibet in Xinjiang has been there. I also know you would say why i have to go there to understand a place. I, as a Chinese, I tell you the most basic reasons. Chinese have been utterly disappointed in the Western media.
Around 2000, I enjoyed watching BBC documentaries about China, even though it unabashedly pointed out a lot of social issues, because I thought it made sense. But since about 2012, BBC has gradually resented me when reporting on China, first of all, a very obvious filter that makes people look like China is full of sand; There are also accuses from time to time, until it starts making up things that don't exist,I stopped watching any western media, such as bbc, cnn, lse. . And I am not the only one who has this view. In China, in my university, this is basically the consensus. But I don't think all Westerners are hostile to China, there are foreigners at my university, and I have a pretty good relationship with them.
Finally, I am indeed a CCP member, certainly not a propaganda robot.that's a joke. My hometown is in Shanxi Province, China. The scenery here is not bad. If you are a person who is interested in China, you can contact my email.i could afford you some rolls.
The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
It's been discussed at length in the West.
So still no evidence? How come it's so difficult to find examples if BBC is supposedly doing this all the time?
On June 19 2022 15:19 GreenHorizons wrote: This is the best visual example I've seen of the alleged color alterations.
I wasn't able to dig up the actual youtube videos. I'd say it reminds me of the known Hollywood aesthetic of making Mexico sepia, sometimes referred to as a "third world filter", which is certainly prevalent in western entertainment media.
That said, while western media certainly has biases in what they show and how they show it, it doesn't appear like that particular issue continues now (on BBC) if it did happen.
You can literally go to YouTube and search "BBC China", and not find a single example of this filter being used, but you'd rather believe some propaganda account on Twitter that won't provide any original sources. Perhaps you shouldn't fall for the propaganda of your favourite fascist dictatorship so easily. ;-)
As in I didn't dig up the specific video seen in the tweet to either confirm or refute the allegations. Allegations I said I didn't see the BBC doing currently.
I went ahead and dug deeper into it and... They definitely did it
The clips from the tweet are from these two videos
I went from skeptical but not dismissive to discovering this example of western propaganda covering this.
A cyber security company that supposedly sees $200,000,000+ in annual revenue got cited by Wired in a western propaganda piece about this and neither of them bothered to acknowledge the readily apparent discordance between the videos in their reporting.
Good find. But what's more likely: that it was some technical screw-up (I watch their coverage on the war in Ukraine on YouTube and they have plenty of issues with sound, for example) or that BBC had some ulterior motive and applied some filter to make look China bad? When I google "BBC China filter" all I get is this one video. I've checked some 10-15 videos on China on BBC's YouTube channel and all of them looked perfectly normal.
I don't know the odds but if it was a technical error they should have said that instead of pretending there wasn't an obvious difference that people were calling out and turning it into western propaganda gaslighting the people who saw it.
On June 19 2022 00:27 maybenexttime wrote: [quote] The accusation that BBC applies some filters to make it look like China is full of sand is a bizarre one. Perhaps it could have something to do with an increase in content from Xinjiang, which happens to be full of sand...
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
It's been discussed at length in the West.
So still no evidence? How come it's so difficult to find examples if BBC is supposedly doing this all the time?
On June 19 2022 15:19 GreenHorizons wrote: This is the best visual example I've seen of the alleged color alterations.
I wasn't able to dig up the actual youtube videos. I'd say it reminds me of the known Hollywood aesthetic of making Mexico sepia, sometimes referred to as a "third world filter", which is certainly prevalent in western entertainment media.
That said, while western media certainly has biases in what they show and how they show it, it doesn't appear like that particular issue continues now (on BBC) if it did happen.
You can literally go to YouTube and search "BBC China", and not find a single example of this filter being used, but you'd rather believe some propaganda account on Twitter that won't provide any original sources. Perhaps you shouldn't fall for the propaganda of your favourite fascist dictatorship so easily. ;-)
As in I didn't dig up the specific video seen in the tweet to either confirm or refute the allegations. Allegations I said I didn't see the BBC doing currently.
I went ahead and dug deeper into it and... They definitely did it
The clips from the tweet are from these two videos
I went from skeptical but not dismissive to discovering this example of western propaganda covering this.
A cyber security company that supposedly sees $200,000,000+ in annual revenue got cited by Wired in a western propaganda piece about this and neither of them bothered to acknowledge the readily apparent discordance between the videos in their reporting.
Good find. But what's more likely: that it was some technical screw-up (I watch their coverage on the war in Ukraine on YouTube and they have plenty of issues with sound, for example) or that BBC had some ulterior motive and applied some filter to make look China bad? When I google "BBC China filter" all I get is this one video. I've checked some 10-15 videos on China on BBC's YouTube channel and all of them looked perfectly normal.
I don't know the odds but if it was a technical error they should have said that instead of pretending there wasn't an obvious difference that people were calling out and turning it into western propaganda gaslighting the people who saw it.
Who are they? Did BBC deny there was a difference? Or do you mean Wired? They probably couldn't find the video. I couldn't find a single pro-Chinese source that linked the original videos. The claim was that this was a systematic issue, a smear campaign by the BBC. That is obviously nonsense.
I am also very confused, but after comparing, I found that the bbc indeed did this, and I don't know what kind of consideration is it for? here is this. i dont know if you could see this picture? https://imagepphcloud.thepaper.cn/pph/image/115/824/714.jpg
Got a comparison of actual videos instead of some poor quality images?
There are two different versions, the one on the left is the Chinese version and the right is the international version
Also, if you really want to discuss Chinese politics, I can give you a topic that most of the media hasn't said, but we ccp members are all concerned about。Here is it.
China's Constitution was amended in two years ago.this made President Xi （the leader of china）'s presidency become infinitely longer. So...,We'll think of a noun which is emperor. you gays talk about xinjiang , tibet,taiwan and so on. in my opinion,It's childish. we dont care the way you think. this (the"emperor"issue) is what we rally care . it's too late. i need to go bed. bye
It's been discussed at length in the West.
So still no evidence? How come it's so difficult to find examples if BBC is supposedly doing this all the time?
On June 19 2022 15:19 GreenHorizons wrote: This is the best visual example I've seen of the alleged color alterations.
I wasn't able to dig up the actual youtube videos. I'd say it reminds me of the known Hollywood aesthetic of making Mexico sepia, sometimes referred to as a "third world filter", which is certainly prevalent in western entertainment media.
That said, while western media certainly has biases in what they show and how they show it, it doesn't appear like that particular issue continues now (on BBC) if it did happen.
You can literally go to YouTube and search "BBC China", and not find a single example of this filter being used, but you'd rather believe some propaganda account on Twitter that won't provide any original sources. Perhaps you shouldn't fall for the propaganda of your favourite fascist dictatorship so easily. ;-)
As in I didn't dig up the specific video seen in the tweet to either confirm or refute the allegations. Allegations I said I didn't see the BBC doing currently.
I went ahead and dug deeper into it and... They definitely did it
The clips from the tweet are from these two videos
I went from skeptical but not dismissive to discovering this example of western propaganda covering this.
A cyber security company that supposedly sees $200,000,000+ in annual revenue got cited by Wired in a western propaganda piece about this and neither of them bothered to acknowledge the readily apparent discordance between the videos in their reporting.
Good find. But what's more likely: that it was some technical screw-up (I watch their coverage on the war in Ukraine on YouTube and they have plenty of issues with sound, for example) or that BBC had some ulterior motive and applied some filter to make look China bad? When I google "BBC China filter" all I get is this one video. I've checked some 10-15 videos on China on BBC's YouTube channel and all of them looked perfectly normal.
I don't know the odds but if it was a technical error they should have said that instead of pretending there wasn't an obvious difference that people were calling out and turning it into western propaganda gaslighting the people who saw it.
Who is they? Did BBC deny there was a difference? Or do you mean Wired? They probably couldn't find the video. I couldn't find a single pro-Chinese source that linked the original videos. The claim was that this was a systematic issue, a smear campaign by the BBC. That is obviously nonsense.
BBC, Wired, and the firm's report they cited. They definitely found the video (versions are linked in the reporting). The systemic issue is the bias demonstrated by all three, not systematically using a "gloom filter". This is a pretty naked example of that bias.
What bias are you talking about? Chinese propaganda is using a single video with what is most likely a simple technical issue to smear the entirety of BBC's reporting on China as supposedly having an ulterior agenda. That is what the article and the report are about.
The gloom filter narrative is a distraction. Sure, they probably should've addressed that. But it's pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
On June 19 2022 13:02 Sermokala wrote: Those links don't work.
It's really blizzare to see people not even try to make arguments or construct anything resembling reason or logic to defend their points. I just don't see what's the point of putting what has to be effort into something that's so devoid of purpose.
I mean the posters who say they're from China recycle the same basic information that doesn't make sense and that they don't even pretend to come up with a lie for. Why would anyone want to go to a nation that we believe is polluted and tyrannical? That's not going to persuade the most brainwashed qanon truther. At least the flat earthers keep trying to come up with things to convince themselves. If you're not going to even try to do anything why do you keep posting nonsense statements like they would persuade even you?
i got it . you want me to show you evidence about apartheid ,the religion issue and so on . I would like to give an example。How did you know that Germany set up concentration camps and slaughtered Jews during World War II?It should be through pictures, videos or memorials in Germany, Poland and other places，right? but i am just a normal person lives in china ,you dont believe chinese medias , i can't go to xinjiang to interview everyone lives in xinjiang to ask if they were tortured by CCP .Because xinjiang is too far and big. urumchi（the capital of xinjiang）is 3000km far from where i am live. Xinjiang is almost five times the size of Germany . I once traveled in Xinjiang for a month in 2016. I've been to a lot of places in Xinjiang . I asked the locals if they knew that foreigners said the CCP was oppressing ethnic minorities. They would laugh at me and ask if there was something wrong with my brain . So, I really don't know how to prove this thing. A recording? A video? You will say that these people were forced to say so.
So, my conclusion is that if you are a foreigner who really cares about the lives of the people of Xinjiang. Then I recommend you to come here instead of posting in a forum, which is very hypocritical and irresponsible.
By the way, I do know that the Uighur population in Xinjiang increased by 1865061 between 2010 and 2020. If ccps are in apartheid, the execution is also too poor.
I tried to find the URL encoding of the image, but failed, why can't this forum directly post the picture? This forum is a little different from the Chinese forum, and I haven't learned how to operate it yet
why do i find this part a little hard to believe?
DETAILS: i got to urumchi by train .it takes me 24 hours and 75 US dollars .then i rent a car to travel . here are the names of place ： tianshan Mountain Cocoto Sea Sailim Lake Bayinbrook Prairie
I spent about 30,000 yuan （about 4500 US dollars）for this travel .that's a huge expenditures . i dont know how to Upload a photo of myself. It's really disappointing. Xinjiang does have a lot of deserts. But there are also many great views .you could find lots Hotels and hostels in each small citys. The noodles and lamb there were nice. My language skills were so poor that I couldn't think of anything else. sorry, Have a nice day
I find it funny when people from China use the expression "western propaganda". Guess they deep inside know their whole media is controlled by state propaganda and implicitly extrapolate to other countries as having their own propaganda machines. They don't realize the media in developed countries are controlled by different entities and each has their own interests most related to financial matters. So, there's no synchronization. No single voice that dictates what should people "think".
It's also interesting to see how they rush to defend any attack on their leaders. When somebody criticizes my country political leaders, I will usually just add some of my own arguments. There's always something that those people that control politics do wrong. And even if somebody will make some critics that I find unfair, I might disagree but will inevitably add my own points to criticize.
For people from dictatorial countries however, their political leaders are doing everything well. Yes, there are problems in their country that are critical, but it's not their leader's fault. Something else is in the way. And the best candidate for that something else is of course some external force These things are so similar in all the dictatorship countries.
On June 19 2022 22:18 arbiter_md wrote: I find it funny when people from China use the expression "western propaganda". Guess they deep inside know their whole media is controlled by state propaganda and implicitly extrapolate to other countries as having their own propaganda machines. They don't realize the media in developed countries are controlled by different entities and each has their own interests most related to financial matters. So, there's no synchronization. No single voice that dictates what should people "think".
It's also interesting to see how they rush to defend any attack on their leaders. When somebody criticizes my country political leaders, I will usually just add some of my own arguments. There's always something that those people that control politics do wrong. And even if somebody will make some critics that I find unfair, I might disagree but will inevitably add my own points to criticize.
For people from dictatorial countries however, their political leaders are doing everything well. Yes, there are problems in their country that are critical, but it's not their leader's fault. Something else is in the way. And the best candidate for that something else is of course some external force These things are so similar in all the dictatorship countries.
Why do you keep insisting people travel to an area they think there are internment camps to uncover secrets of the ccp? Do you think that it's a compelling argument to dare people to get arrested by a dictatorship? I don't want to die or end up in a Chinese jail and I don't feel safe going to a nation that so clearly discriminates against foreigners. GH would never want to actually go to China even and he's trying his best to carry water for the "guys china doesn't have pollution it's just a bbc filter everyone keeps using to take pictures of smog" idea.
The whole part about the holocaust being known due to it being after the fact with monuments has no connection to modern internment camps that we've seen evidence for them existing. Just because your government denies things doesn't mean that you have to accept it wholesale. You are a human being capable of critical thinking and problem solving.
On June 19 2022 22:48 Sermokala wrote: Why do you keep insisting people travel to an area they think there are internment camps to uncover secrets of the ccp? Do you think that it's a compelling argument to dare people to get arrested by a dictatorship? I don't want to die or end up in a Chinese jail and I don't feel safe going to a nation that so clearly discriminates against foreigners. GH would never want to actually go to China even and he's trying his best to carry water for the "guys china doesn't have pollution it's just a bbc filter everyone keeps using to take pictures of smog" idea.
The whole part about the holocaust being known due to it being after the fact with monuments has no connection to modern internment camps that we've seen evidence for them existing. Just because your government denies things doesn't mean that you have to accept it wholesale. You are a human being capable of critical thinking and problem solving.
thanks for your kind words. to tell the truth ,if you come to china in 1970s , the terrible things did would happen. my grandpa ，was once forced to go to the coal mine to dig coal in 1971 . my dad once show me the pictures .It was indeed a bad memory. I'm just an ordinary Chinese and can't change anything big . Just a man who tell you some story .
I visted Shanghai about 5 years ago. Plane touched down and the air was a yellow fog. I was assured it was not normally like this, but it remained yellow for the entire time I was there.
The middle class and richer do their best to essentially live work and play in filtered air conditioned rooms and will not drink water from out of the tap. The poor may not have a choice. I was warned repeatedly not to drink tap water, not even if it was boiled. Don't know if things have changed since then.
On June 20 2022 00:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I visted Shanghai about 5 years ago. Plane touched down and the air was a yellow fog. I was assured it was not normally like this, but it remained yellow for the entire time I was there.
The middle class and richer do their best to essentially live work and play in filtered air conditioned rooms and will not drink water from out of the tap. The poor may not have a choice. I was warned repeatedly not to drink tap water, not even if it was boiled. Don't know if things have changed since then.
that's true . i used to travel to shanghai in 2018.i could feel the bad air in most of region.(Especially in winter). for now ,i am in xi'an right now. the air is pretty good(still bad in winter) . but all of chinese dont drink tap water. It's a cultural difference .But the quality of China's tap water is really not good and cannot be drunk directly .If the water quality in China were as good as in UK, I might drink tap water as well.
On June 19 2022 22:48 Sermokala wrote: ... GH would never want to actually go to China even and he's trying his best to carry water for the "guys china doesn't have pollution it's just a bbc filter everyone keeps using to take pictures of smog" idea.
You guys want to pool up some money to pay for it, I'll go. Rumor is that we're on the precipice of losing democracy in the US anyway.
There was a time when China dismissed smoggy media as fog but they made a real commitment to addressing it (not fixing it overnight). They called it a "war against pollution".
Over the last few decades, China has gained a reputation for being one of the most polluted countries in the world. Yet, it hasn’t been in the top five since 2016...
Amid one of the worst stretches of air pollution in modern Chinese history, Premier Li Keqiang declared a “war against pollution” at the beginning of 2014 during the opening of China’s annual meeting of the National People’s Congress. The timing of the declaration—at the kickoff of a nationally televised conference typically reserved for discussing key economic targets—marked an important shift in the country’s long-standing policy of prioritizing economic growth over concerns about environmental protection. It also marked an important change in the government’s official rhetoric about the country’s air quality. In the past, state media had deflected concerns about air quality by claiming poor visibility was due to “fog” and that emissions had no effect on levels of smog. Now, the government stressed environmental responsibility, stating the country could not “pollute now and clean up later” and would fight pollution with “an iron fist.”
Due to these actions, all the targets set by the National Air Quality Action Plan, which expired in 2017, were met. China’s government, however, remained acutely aware that the country’s air pollution was still a serious problem. To achieve further improvements, the Chinese government announced in July 2018 a new plan for 2018-2020. Regions that did not meet the national air quality standard of 35 µg/m3would need to reduce particulate pollution by 18 percent relative to 2015 levels. Though the national targets are less ambitious than those set for 2013-2017, some prefectures set more stringent targets for themselves in their local five-year plans. For example, Beijing committed itself to a 30 percent reduction from 2015 levels by 2020 and as per the latest satellite data, it ended up reducing pollution by 55.5 percent in this period.
The Chinese government’s air pollution reduction strategies have largely allowed the country to win its war against pollution. Between 2013 and 2020, particulate pollution exposure declined by an average of 39.6 percent across the Chinese population. If that reduction is sustained, it would equate to a gain in average life expectancy of 2 years. To place China’s success impact into context, the reductions in pollution account for all of the global average decline since 2013.
To put the scale and speed of China’s progress into context, it’s useful to compare it to the United States and Europe after their periods of industrialization. In the United States, following the passage of the Clean Air Act, it took almost three decades and five recessions to achieve about the same percent decline. In Europe, after their environment agency was created, it took about two decades and two recessions to achieve approximately China’s percent reduction.
To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it.
I have to create an account because you are talking about MY country. China launched her 3rd carrier-type003 the day before yesterday, but don't worry too much, it's made in China
Its kind of a moot point about economic inequalities when the poorer nations will disproportionately be the losers with climate change. When a nation pollutes its arable land and builds ghost cities full of concrete coffins on the arable land it didn't polute it can't produce food to feed its people. When the seas become barren of fish because of the fleets of trawling fishing vessels going around exterminating marine life it will be the nation that did the trawling that will be hurt the most. When global food production takes a major hit due to the world becoming dryer and hotter the nations who can't produce food on their own will be hurt more than the food exporting nations. When global average temperatures in the summer exceed the wet blub threshold the nations that can't afford to air-condition its people will be the ones to experience mass die-offs due to heat. When you pollute your rivers to the point you can't drink from them the nations that can keep water treatment plants online will be able to water their people for a lot cheaper than the ones that can't.
The effects of climate change won't be felt equally. People will remember those that refused to do anything to prevent those effects.
To develop the economy there must be many schools. The industrial revolution wasn't a possibility before there were educated workers to work complex machines, to build them, to maintain them, and to create new products for them to make.
On June 20 2022 11:27 SSIII wrote: I have to create an account because you are talking about MY country. China launched her 3rd carrier-type003 the day before yesterday, but don't worry too much, it's made in China
I mean no one is worrying. The first was bought from Ukraine as a soviet model the second has a ramp-like British harrier carriers and this third one isn't even finished. Its going right back into the slip to work on its launch catapult. Its not even going to be nuclear powered like the one the french have and the 11 America has built now.
On June 20 2022 10:25 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it.
The expectation from westerners is that China go from struggling to feed ~20% of the global population with only 7% of the worlds arable land in an unindustrialized country to surpassing the US and Europe's ecological policies. Simply doing it more efficiently than they did isn't enough for them. Many westerners find it contemptable, as laughably ridiculous as that is.
I don't know what is like in other countries but the spirit of collectivism is rooted in East Asia. I mean, the leader of an east-asian country is not only a leader, it is more like a symbol. If you make jokes of the emperor of japan, the japnese will give you a pitiful look. If you make jokes or criticize on Xi，the Chinese will not argue with you because we think it is nonsense to do so. Those figures are far away from dailly life. I will not be pissed if you criticize on CCP or Xi , but I do feel uncomfortable if you insult the Chinese people, because most Chinese people are patriots. China is one single country, and if you look into european history, it is a history of families and tribes, China is quite different. For example, you might be laughing if I say people in Texas are all fools, but the Chinese will not find it funny if you say people in certain parts of China are all fools. And for the "Tiananmen square event" ,common Chinese do know about these things, tanks running over students/soldiers get killed brutally by civilians..bla bla bla... what do we think about this event? Well, the student were doing protests with good intentions but unfortunately "utilized" by external powers, the organizers flied to America the next day, how can they run so quickly if there were no contacts. Actually the Tiananmen square event is not weakening but strenthing the CCP's leadership. I think the students are really heroes, the CCP did improved alot since then, they focused on self-critism and corruption problems. As a generation living "under the red flags", I know everything about brain-wash, I have political classes even in childhood, the proganda in china is quite different form that of "soviet union" or "north korea", it emphasizes that the people rather than "certain leader" plays the key role in history. and the principle of CCP is to serve the people...bla blabla Now I have to have lunch.
I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept.
On June 20 2022 10:25 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it.
The expectation from westerners is that China go from struggling to feed ~20% of the global population with only 7% of the worlds arable land in an unindustrialized country to surpassing the US and Europe's ecological policies. Simply doing it more efficiently than they did isn't enough for them. Many westerners find it contemptable, as laughably ridiculous as that is.
Nope.
Btw tech now is different than 100 years ago.
Why does it take so many billionares and millionaires to feed people?
Communist billionares are polluting like crazy to feed people but capitalist billionares are not?
Tickle down effect?
Maybe they should stop making coal powerplants and at least hold up to their own pledge. Should communists really be caring about weath and power over the world? Im sure the new aircraft carrier is to deliver food.
I do not think anyone would argue with you that China has the worlds mpst efficent dictatorshp, however that comes with more bad than good.
Would you say Mao China was an utter failure? Why are they 100s of years behind and just getting people out of thus now?
Do they? None of the Asian tigers were democracies when they started industrializing. Singapore is much more succesful and they're still an autocracy. China's growth after Deng's reforms is impressive but not unique.
On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept.
They were banned because they were pretending to be Chinese. It continually happens, and is likely happening now too. To the China one country thing, people in Tibet Xinjiang, Hong Kong and more would disagree.
Genuine question, how are we telling who is a real Chinese person and who isn’t?
On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept.
Ok so im not even going to try and dig into that weird parable you just whipped out because I have wayy too many questions about it.
What are the "mean and racial" words and the posters you are referring to there?
On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept.
Ok so im not even going to try and dig into that weird parable you just whipped out because I have wayy too many questions about it.
What are the "mean and racial" words and the posters you are referring to there?
Look, I am not here to fight, the story I made up suggests nothing but that democracy is not something new and rare, and some peoples in asia/africa/latinamerica tend to have 1 leader, just repect the differences. And for that 'mean and racial words' thing you can find in the first 10 pages, but I guess you might not find it "offensive" because you are not the target
I think the westners must be curious how common Chinese view on NorthKorea. I can talk about this because it is forbidden in chinese forums to talk about NK. I dislike NK, the regime is definitely evil, the people of NK is fooled and completely brainwashed, I even think that our goverment should not protect it. However, countries's interests surpass personal feelings, I can not do anything about it.
Comunism is not evil at its birth, it's original purpose is to abolish the system of exploitation of man by man，create a world without classes, a world everyone will enjoy. However, the dream too big to realize, Karl Max didn't show the way to achieve comunism, I think you are learned enough about his theories. The russian rushed to achieve it in a dumb way, simply put massive people in Gulag to eliminate classes and enemies inside the people, which make everyone start thinking that comunism is something really evil. The Chinese never set up such labor-camps, even in the "cultural revolution" times, tens of thousands chinese died abnormally in the 1960s-1970s due to famine and "classical fight", my grandpa was a high rank police officer then, he was beaten half death simply because people suspect that he had some problems. Everyone was crazy in that period, the later Chinese leaders like Deng and Hu were mistreated too. That crazy times is gone, Mao is critized widely after his death, he is considered "30%fault70%right". The policies to realize communism is more elastic in China, Deng said we have to achieve socialism first, it might take 100 years, so he started the "open policy" and china today is like a half-socalism-half-captalism mixture.
I am not misleading this thread to discussions on NK or Communism, I wrote this to help you understand China.
On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept.
Ok so im not even going to try and dig into that weird parable you just whipped out because I have wayy too many questions about it.
What are the "mean and racial" words and the posters you are referring to there?
Look, I am not here to fight, the story I made up suggests nothing but that democracy is not something new and rare, and some peoples in asia/africa/latinamerica tend to have 1 leader, just repect the differences. And for that 'mean and racial words' thing you can find in the first 10 pages, but I guess you might not find it "offensive" because you are not the target
You can't just show up to a conversation, dismiss everything people say, and then instantly say "gee I don't want to fight guess I win". You can't just say "people said racist and mean things about Chinese people" and then instantly not have any sort of example to point to, with the implication of saying "just trust me you're racist and mean".
What you are doing is making statements and treating them like arguments. They don't do anything, there is no point to you doing this. Why are you putting the minimum effort into posting things and expecting people to change anything about what they think?
No I'm not going to "respect" the differences when my standard of living in a democracy is objectionable better than the standard of living in nations that live in dictatorships. no democracy isn't "new or rare" but its still objectionably better than every other system tried. The problems with governance don't come when people want more leaders the problem with governance come when people want less.
Whats the news about evergrande? I haven't seen anything new about that on my end other than their foreign creditors saying they're in default. What are they saying about it in china?
So you might start to understand why the Chinese are not really willing to talk about politics, people suffered alot in the "class struggle“times ”,we are tired at political debates, and political talks are somewhat not appealed in china,whatever the -ism is, is not something we really care, just like what Deng said -" white cat, black cat, who catch the rat is good cat". As the chinese people are indeferent on politics, we find is more or less rediculous that the foreigners care about chinese politics more than us
On June 21 2022 11:25 SSIII wrote: I think the westners must be curious how common Chinese view on NorthKorea. I can talk about this because it is forbidden in chinese forums to talk about NK. I dislike NK, the regime is definitely evil, the people of NK is fooled and completely brainwashed, I even think that our goverment should not protect it. However, countries's interests surpass personal feelings, I can not do anything about it.
Comunism is not evil at its birth, it's original purpose is to abolish the system of exploitation of man by man，create a world without classes, a world everyone will enjoy. However, the dream too big to realize, Karl Max didn't show the way to achieve comunism, I think you are learned enough about his theories. The russian rushed to achieve it in a dumb way, simply put massive people in Gulag to eliminate classes and enemies inside the people, which make everyone start thinking that comunism is something really evil. The Chinese never set up such labor-camps, even in the "cultural revolution" times, tens of thousands chinese died abnormally in the 1960s-1970s due to famine and "classical fight", my grandpa was a high rank police officer then, he was beaten half death simply because people suspect that he had some problems. Everyone was crazy in that period, the later Chinese leaders like Deng and Hu were mistreated too. That crazy times is gone, Mao is critized widely after his death, he is considered "30%fault70%right". The policies to realize communism is more elastic in China, Deng said we have to achieve socialism first, it might take 100 years, so he started the "open policy" and china today is like a half-socalism-half-captalism mixture.
I am not misleading this thread to discussions on NK or Communism, I wrote this to help you understand China.
Is that the number they say died in the famines during the great leap forward?
But no no I totally get it. I think everyone kinda understands that NK is a buffer state from the cold war to prevent another invasion through Korea into the Chinese mainland. This would be a valid concern and something the Chinese have shown they're willing to fight over. the problem with NK now it that its 2020 and they might have nukes now. Young people in SK do not want reunification and their recent election has shown that's where the nations attitude is shifting.
A deal to demilitarize the Korean peninsula of the west (and japan) in exchange for peaceful reunification is something that should have been done decades ago. With how Hong Kong is going and like I said the attitude of SK to reunification that deal just isn't going to be made anymore. Its now the USA's Isreal and no one has any idea how to solve the issue anymore.
On June 21 2022 11:40 SSIII wrote: So you might start to understand why the Chinese are not really willing to talk about politics, people suffered alot in the "class struggle“times ”,we are tired at political debates, and political talks are somewhat not appealed in china,whatever the -ism is, is not something we really care, just like what Deng said -" white cat, black cat, who catch the rat is good cat". As the chinese people are indeferent on politics, we find is more or less rediculous that the foreigners care about chinese politics more than us
We understand why you are not willing to talk about politics. You are not free to express your speech in china and have tow worry about government retaliation. I really don't think the Chinese are "indifferent on politics" they just don't want people to randomly shit on them. But saying as an American who gets that from the euros all the time, you can't just tell them to stop. They're free to do whatever they want and you need to be able to at least discuss it if you want to respond to it. If you can't discuss it then don't respond to it.
There are a lot of things we can talk about china that isn't ... shall we say "offensive" to the CCP. Myself I'm fascinated if the "rent an electric scooter" culture is something that works better than it does in America. It doesn't work here because of the poor geography and larger size of Americans but do they have those things and if they work.
On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept.
Ok so im not even going to try and dig into that weird parable you just whipped out because I have wayy too many questions about it.
What are the "mean and racial" words and the posters you are referring to there?
Look, I am not here to fight, the story I made up suggests nothing but that democracy is not something new and rare, and some peoples in asia/africa/latinamerica tend to have 1 leader, just repect the differences. And for that 'mean and racial words' thing you can find in the first 10 pages, but I guess you might not find it "offensive" because you are not the target
You can't just show up to a conversation, dismiss everything people say, and then instantly say "gee I don't want to fight guess I win". You can't just say "people said racist and mean things about Chinese people" and then instantly not have any sort of example to point to, with the implication of saying "just trust me you're racist and mean".
What you are doing is making statements and treating them like arguments. They don't do anything, there is no point to you doing this. Why are you putting the minimum effort into posting things and expecting people to change anything about what they think?
No I'm not going to "respect" the differences when my standard of living in a democracy is objectionable better than the standard of living in nations that live in dictatorships. no democracy isn't "new or rare" but its still objectionably better than every other system tried. The problems with governance don't come when people want more leaders the problem with governance come when people want less.
Whats the news about evergrande? I haven't seen anything new about that on my end other than their foreign creditors saying they're in default. What are they saying about it in china?
I am expecting anyone to change anyting about what they think, if people are not willing to change, no one can change him. I just showed my own personal perspectives, maybe a common chinese' personal perspectives are so different that it seems to be a propaganda ：） I am not, I swear, if my personal perspectives seems so odd, I think I'd better stop. You can choose not to "respect" the differences, it does not matter, but if the US goverment learned to respect the differences, many wars could be avoided. As for the grandever company, I don't know much about it, I heard it's in heavy debt and have a restructuring plan in the future.
Is that the number they say died in the famines during the great leap forward?
I am surprised that you have heard of "the great leap", I don't know if the gov had given any number on the famine, "the great leap" happened in 1958-1960, and the great famine was in "1961-963", in common chinese's memories, the famine caused "几十万” death(几十=dozens,万=10000), which is hundreds of thounds, foreign scholar gave a number of "20-40 millions" which is approx. 4.4~8.8% of the population in China then. I think the number is too high.
We understand why you are not willing to talk about politics. You are not free to express your speech in china and have tow worry about government retaliation. I really don't think the Chinese are "indifferent on politics" they just don't want people to randomly shit on them. But saying as an American who gets that from the euros all the time, you can't just tell them to stop. They're free to do whatever they want and you need to be able to at least discuss it if you want to respond to it. If you can't discuss it then don't respond to it.
There are a lot of things we can talk about china that isn't ... shall we say "offensive" to the CCP. Myself I'm fascinated if the "rent an electric scooter" culture is something that works better than it does in America. It doesn't work here because of the poor geography and larger size of Americans but do they have those things and if they work.
The situation here is like this, from my personal perspectives. If you make a thread with the title "CCP must fall" or something like that, it will be deleted sooner or later, nothing will happen to you. But if you make such threads like everyday, or make several threads on politics, maybe someday the NationalSecurityAgency will ask you to "have a tea", they will ask your purpose, try to find if you are a sycho or a spy or some 1450(taiwan intelligence funded personels who shits on chinese web), normally you will be fine, they don't throw you into jail. If you make a thread like "millions Uighurs in reeducational camps", they may arrest you for "spreading rumors" or "threating to disrupt the nation". I post alot on politics here, my IP could easily be tracked, I am not worried to be "asked for a tea" someday, but you are right ,I'd better keep low
I was wondering , not sure that if you make several threads like "Republicans should all die" or " I swear to kill every republicans someday", will FBI or CIA come to your door?
We understand why you are not willing to talk about politics. You are not free to express your speech in china and have tow worry about government retaliation. I really don't think the Chinese are "indifferent on politics" they just don't want people to randomly shit on them. But saying as an American who gets that from the euros all the time, you can't just tell them to stop. They're free to do whatever they want and you need to be able to at least discuss it if you want to respond to it. If you can't discuss it then don't respond to it.
There are a lot of things we can talk about china that isn't ... shall we say "offensive" to the CCP. Myself I'm fascinated if the "rent an electric scooter" culture is something that works better than it does in America. It doesn't work here because of the poor geography and larger size of Americans but do they have those things and if they work.
The situation here is like this, from my personal perspectives. If you make a thread with the title "CCP must fall" or something like that, it will be deleted sooner or later, nothing will happen to you. But if you make such threads like everyday, or make several threads on politics, maybe someday the NationalSecurityAgency will ask you to "have a tea", they will ask your purpose, try to find if you are a sycho or a spy or some 1450(taiwan intelligence funded personels who shits on chinese web), normally you will be fine, they don't throw you into jail. If you make a thread like "millions Uighurs in reeducational camps", they may arrest you for "spreading rumors" or "threating to disrupt the nation". I post alot on politics here, my IP could easily be tracked, I am not worried to be "asked for a tea" someday, but you are right ,I'd better keep low
I think dispelling the idea that being even remotely critical of the CCP will get you locked up or worse at the drop of a hat is pretty important.
There are certainly different restrictions and solutions to speech western governments like I live under in the US and governments like China deem undesirable, as well as different perceptions of how that impacts citizens. It's not like any country has struck some perfect balance that can be effortlessly applied globally though. It's with that in mind I think people can take a more curious than critical perspective on what China's censorship on what we in the west refer to as "free speech" is like for regular people.
On June 21 2022 13:35 SSIII wrote: I was wondering , not sure that if you make several threads like "Republicans should all die" or " I swear to kill every republicans someday", will FBI or CIA come to your door?
Very doubtful. In the US pol threads there has been all sorts of kill all billionaires and other shit that is as bad and worse and no one comes to the door. No one is checking what North Americans say on social media let alone message boards. People drive around where I live with "fuck Trudeau" bumper stickers, some shaped like a hand with a middle finger up. There hats, tshirts, and more memorabilia, no one ever gets pulled over, let alone arrested.
There are watchlists though, for people who do specifically take extra steps like trying to find contact information for known terrorist organizations or bomb recipes or whatever. Whether they are effective or not is another story entirely, since there's been quite a few people who have announced on the internet that they intend to kill people and then end up doing so without being impeded by the authorities.
As for threatening posts like that in the west, the responsibility usually is on the target of the threat to start any sort of legal action. Most websites have policies that stifle that sort of thing, like obviously here on teamliquid you aren't really going to be making posts that are specifically trying to drum up support for murdering people. At least that's my impression. Jokingly saying "eat the rich" is much different.
It's been very interesting reading your posts though SSIII, it's not often I get to hear stuff from people in mainland China. Hope everything is going well for you over there!
On June 21 2022 14:15 goiflin wrote: It's been very interesting reading your posts though SSIII, it's not often I get to hear stuff from people in mainland China. Hope everything is going well for you over there!
thanks, mate,SSIII stands for one of my favorite PC game SuddenStrike3, SS4 is not good enough.
On June 21 2022 13:35 SSIII wrote: I was wondering , not sure that if you make several threads like "Republicans should all die" or " I swear to kill every republicans someday", will FBI or CIA come to your door?
Very doubtful. In the US pol threads there has been all sorts of kill all billionaires and other shit that is as bad and worse and no one comes to the door. No one is checking what North Americans say on social media let alone message boards. People drive around where I live with "fuck Trudeau" bumper stickers, some shaped like a hand with a middle finger up. There hats, tshirts, and more memorabilia, no one ever gets pulled over, let alone arrested.
I believe you , that's what I saw in western movies. Trudeau is a politician, he is not very much different from any other politician, more like an emploree to do the government work. In China, supreme leader is not simply an emploree to govern, he is also a spiritual symbol of the nation,like a parent to all families，I think no Chinese will put a sticker with “Fuck Xi” or "Fuck CCP" on his car unless he or she does not approve himself/herself to be a Chinese. Will I do this if it is allowed? Clearly NO
In addition, the 2021 china's private car ownership is 367million (4-wheels), which means 1/4 people own a car on everage, my family is not rich, but we do have a golf, it is unimaginable in the last century. Most common car sticker are "baby in car" / "Beginner in car, please care" / "female driver, watch out" / "if you see this you are too close"/...or some other funny stickers. I have never seen any "fxxk ccp" or similar stickers. The gas price today is more than 9yuan/liter, which is $ 1.5 per liter, or $ 5.5 per gallon（u.s), so many people consider to sell old cars for new energy vehicles.
Is there freedom of religion in China to practice publicly and peacefully your religion (I.e. the freedom to meet and pray in a mosque, or church, or whatever religion?) no. Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either. Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No. Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really. (If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today.
Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back.
But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore.
On June 21 2022 15:54 pebble444 wrote: Is there freedom of religion in China to practice publicly and peacefully your religion (I.e. the freedom to meet and pray in a mosque, or church, or whatever religion?) no. Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either. Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No. Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really. (If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today.
Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back.
But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore.
I'm getting off work now, 5p.m here, I don't have too much time to reply, but I think none of your opnions is ture. A short example: you said "The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today", would you please use you brain? Will any country be stable at this male/female ratio? I checked on web, there are 7 official main population census in China， which is a basic data for many policies, the male/female ratio is 107.56(1953), 105.46(1964), 106.3(1982), 106.6(1990), 106.74（2000），105.2（2010），105.07（2020）. http://news.hsw.cn/system/2021/0511/1322691.shtml
Could you have a emperor xi with a red circle with a red line through it sign or bumper sticker? Or anything that indicates that you are not pro Xi or the ccp?
if someday I am so disappointed at him, I could do that, it is just a sticker on the car, this no such a crime of "insulting the leader", so I guess I will not be arrested for this sticker, BUT, someone who noticed this could snap it will his smartphone and spread the picture on the web, if it is widely spread and caused some influence, I think the local police will call me to have a talk. Unlike the soviet union, there's no plainclothes policemen keeping eyes on people(there are some plainclothes policemen at railway/bus/airline stations) , but I don't want to get into such trouble if not necessary.
When I was a child, I often see a crazyman cursing CCP loudly on the street to my school, nothing happend to him, everyone knows he must be mistreated in the cultural revolution times.
@pebble444 It is my gaming time now, but I dropped to answer your questions, you are welcome. I searched on my smart phone, there are approx.12,000 churches in China, over 200 in shanghai, and in my small city , about 8~9. I knew some neighbors join church activities, mainly the old people. Most Chinese are atheist indeed, and in comunism theories, the working class are their own saviors I saw Uighurs and the Hui people(another minority who believe in muslim too) do their prayers in their temple or just on the sidewalk in my city and other cities. However , after the covid , I never see that scene again.
On June 21 2022 15:54 pebble444 wrote: Is there freedom of religion in China to practice publicly and peacefully your religion (I.e. the freedom to meet and pray in a mosque, or church, or whatever religion?) no. Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either. Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No. Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really. (If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today.
Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back.
But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore.
I'm getting off work now, 5p.m here, I don't have too much time to reply, but I think none of your opnions is ture. A short example: you said "The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today", would you please use you brain? Will any country be stable at this male/female ratio? I checked on web, there are 7 official main population census in China， which is a basic data for many policies, the male/female ratio is 107.56(1953), 105.46(1964), 106.3(1982), 106.6(1990), 106.74（2000），105.2（2010），105.07（2020）. http://news.hsw.cn/system/2021/0511/1322691.shtml
Yeah the 3-1 ratio being male that pebble mentioned is way off. Census data summarised in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China . There are more detailed breakdowns by age groups but the child/adult/elderly:
Could you have a emperor xi with a red circle with a red line through it sign or bumper sticker? Or anything that indicates that you are not pro Xi or the ccp?
if someday I am so disappointed at him, I could do that, it is just a sticker on the car, this no such a crime of "insulting the leader", so I guess I will not be arrested for this sticker, BUT, someone who noticed this could snap it will his smartphone and spread the picture on the web, if it is widely spread and caused some influence, I think the local police will call me to have a talk. Unlike the soviet union, there's no plainclothes policemen keeping eyes on people(there are some plainclothes policemen at railway/bus/airline stations) , but I don't want to get into such trouble if not necessary.
When I was a child, I often see a crazyman cursing CCP loudly on the street to my school, nothing happend to him, everyone knows he must be mistreated in the cultural revolution times.
See, but this is kind of the thing. You are always aware of the fact that if you do something which is contrary to the ruling party, and police gets to know it, they will bother you about it. So you basically constantly need a mental filter to consider if the thing you say may get you in trouble.
This is not the case here. If i have a sticker similar to the one mentioned above, but with any german politician on it, under no circumstances will the police call me to "have a talk". If i don't like something, i can just say so, without fear of repressions, or police coming to "have a talk".
And honestly, the way you handle Xi is kind of on point here. "Spiritual leader" "If i ever were dissatisfied (which i obviously not am), then i could do something like that, but obviously no one would ever really do that, because Xi is so awesome"
If that is really the consensus in China, then something weird is going on. Either people don't dare to say what they really believe, or they are fed a very restricted diet of information. No matter how good a leader is, there will always be people who are dissatisfied, or want something else. If you cannot find them, then they are hiding, which means that something weird is going on.
Yes the 3 to 1 ratio is off. Maybe the problem is not as magnified as that. But a documentary I saw interviewing a Chinese village that women there where with ptsd because more than one where pushed to abort by their husbands, because the fetus looked like a girl, and the family where terrified of pro-creating more than one child (the infamous one child rule at the time). Even the retired doctor stated it was normal practice to abort females at the time. One family, who decided to have the baby female, was sort of looked at later on as the village hero. Again, these where interviews with Chinese people.
It’s possible that those who are dissatisfied, maybe do not have an internet connection to complain about it. Seems like online and offline, the Chinese people who do somewhat express themselves on politics, economics and human rights, have a very dystopic version of what is going on, and never critisize for any reason the goverment. Which of course is the primary sign of a de facto dictatorship. Another reason could be that people who are being oppressed speak a much more limited version of English.
One Tibetan man I met openly told me that he left Tibet because the occupation was not allowing him to lead peaceful life there, and he told me about his friends being harassed by police. He said people there tried to live their lives as best as they could considering the Chinese occupation.
Another thing that recalls of the oppressive nature of the goverment in China, is the forced 1 time zone policy for the whole country. In another interview on another documentary, this Chinese man had two clocks, one for official Beijing time, and the other what he called the “sun” time, because, he said, that he could not get used to seeing time and sunset/sunrise where totally off related to that.
Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No.
In china You cannot buy and own a house in your name. What is done is you lease it long term from the goverment. Not sure of the exact details, like people actually buy houses and apartments, but it’s not legally theirs. This way the goverment can easily kick you out should it decides it needs the space for some public works.
In the construction of the hugest hydroelectric plant in the world, this was the case. Millions of people where displaced to make way for the country massive need of power.
Reports have shown that uygers are not allowed to leave their province, to move freely to other parts of China, unless they want to go to Kazakhstan, which is mostly a Muslim country,
On June 21 2022 13:35 SSIII wrote: I was wondering , not sure that if you make several threads like "Republicans should all die" or " I swear to kill every republicans someday", will FBI or CIA come to your door?
You can say almost anything you want. The only times it becomes something they can investigate or arrest you is if you call for others to actually do something or if you specifically mention who you want to kill.
I want to kill a republican us president: legal. I want to kill trump: not legal.
It's also legal to say that in public under the context of mentioning that it would be illegal to say that.
MLK, Fred Hampton, and many others would disagree with this "we can say what we want" experience. They were labeled enemies of the state and Fred Hampton was assassinated by the FBI and local PD without committing any crime.
There's a long history of arresting, harassing, and killing political dissenters in the US and even people that just capture police brutality on camera and have the audacity to make it public.
Then you have gangs like the NYPD, and Chicago PD known to rampantly harass, 'stop and frisk', and brutalize innocent people for being Black.
Then there's the NSA and others known to have engaged in massive illegal domestic spying without consequence (is it really illegal for them to do it if there's no consequences?).
Also there are still indigenous people alive today that survived the North American Indian schools designed to genocidally remove them.
The US highway system was explicitly used to destroy Black neighborhoods and disrupt poor (predominately Black and Latino) people's access to infrastructure.
A reasonable case could be made that China is behind the US in addressing some of these things, but to pretend like eminent domain, government repression, and a lack of rights for minorities hasn't been part and parcel of the development of the US is disingenuous at best.
On June 22 2022 01:46 GreenHorizons wrote: MLK, Fred Hampton, and many others would disagree with this "we can say what we want" experience. They were labeled enemies of the state and Fred Hampton was assassinated by the FBI and local PD without committing any crime.
There's a long history of arresting, harassing, and killing political dissenters in the US and even people that just capture police brutality on camera and have the audacity to make it public.
Then you have gangs like the NYPD, and Chicago PD known to rampantly harass, 'stop and frisk', and brutalize innocent people for being Black.
Then there's the NSA and others known to have engaged in massive illegal domestic spying without consequence (is it really illegal for them to do it if there's no consequences?).
Also there are still indigenous people alive today that survived the North American Indian schools designed to genocidally remove them.
The US highway system was explicitly used to destroy Black neighborhoods and disrupt poor (predominately Black and Latino) people's access to infrastructure.
A reasonable case could be made that China is behind the US in addressing some of these things, but to pretend like eminent domain, government repression, and a lack of rights for minorities hasn't been part and parcel of the development of the US is disingenuous at best.
This is just hilarious. GH you can't just whataboutism your way through arguments and then throw out that insane statement like the situation is anyway comparable. There is a series of problems but the government isn't actively sealing people into their homes when they want to or breaking into your home to send you off to a camp. Not even the GOP could get away with "control your hearts desire for freedom". We're talking about 2022 not comparing previous generations of the US with the current situation in china to justify whats going on. You can't live in the past if you want to improve the future.
Expanding access to urban centers from the cheap land outside of the city limits doesn't constitute "explicitly used to destroy black neighborhoods and disrupt poor peoples access to infrastructure". If you want to complain about the jobs that Minorities were relying on in inner cities, those went to china and other places due to globalism.
On June 22 2022 01:46 GreenHorizons wrote: MLK, Fred Hampton, and many others would disagree with this "we can say what we want" experience. They were labeled enemies of the state and Fred Hampton was assassinated by the FBI and local PD without committing any crime.
There's a long history of arresting, harassing, and killing political dissenters in the US and even people that just capture police brutality on camera and have the audacity to make it public.
Then you have gangs like the NYPD, and Chicago PD known to rampantly harass, 'stop and frisk', and brutalize innocent people for being Black.
Then there's the NSA and others known to have engaged in massive illegal domestic spying without consequence (is it really illegal for them to do it if there's no consequences?).
Also there are still indigenous people alive today that survived the North American Indian schools designed to genocidally remove them.
The US highway system was explicitly used to destroy Black neighborhoods and disrupt poor (predominately Black and Latino) people's access to infrastructure.
A reasonable case could be made that China is behind the US in addressing some of these things, but to pretend like eminent domain, government repression, and a lack of rights for minorities hasn't been part and parcel of the development of the US is disingenuous at best.
This is just hilarious. GH you can't just whataboutism your way through arguments and then throw out that insane statement like the situation is anyway comparable. There is a series of problems but the government isn't actively sealing people into their homes when they want to or breaking into your home to send you off to a camp. Not even the GOP could get away with "control your hearts desire for freedom". We're talking about 2022 not comparing previous generations of the US with the current situation in china to justify whats going on. You can't live in the past if you want to improve the future.
Expanding access to urban centers from the cheap land outside of the city limits doesn't constitute "explicitly used to destroy black neighborhoods and disrupt poor peoples access to infrastructure". If you want to complain about the jobs that Minorities were relying on in inner cities, those went to china and other places due to globalism.
Call it what you want and dismiss it if you wish but I specifically referenced Hampton because he'd be younger (and a helluva lot better) than the current President if he wasn't assassinated by the government and the FBI's contemporary Black Identity Extremist designation to illustrate it's not a relic of the past.
What's ridiculous is pretending like an ACAB bumper sticker and some cannabis (or drugs police plant) can't get you thrown into prisons the UN say engage in torture or worse. That's a reality for millions of people in the US today.
As for breaking into homes and locking you up, the supreme court just made that a lot easier for the feds to get away with. There's an ongoing media campaign that is also insisting we're a couple elections from losing democracy and descending into the US's reactionary past losing what progress can be claimed to have been made in the last decades as well (abortion rights are gone soon too).
Despite your strawman and dusty platitudes, I also specifically said a reasonable argument could be made that China is behind the US on addressing some these things as well.
The engineers designing the road networks saw their potential as tools of so-called “urban renewal,” code for the large-scale implementation of a policy of displacement, demolition, and economic disenfranchisement. Poor, often racially segregated neighborhoods were leveled to make way for the new roads:
places that we’d now see as interesting, multi-ethnic areas were viewed as blight.” Highways were a tool for justifying the destruction of many of these areas.
The new freeways also isolated many other neighborhoods, ushering in their demise. Combined with federal housing bills that paid developers to tear down existing housing stock and replace it with high-rises, they resulted in the continued decimation of huge swaths of many cities.
“Many neighborhoods, predominantly black, were wiped out and turned into surface parking and highways,” Norton says, noting Black Bottom and Paradise Valley in Detroit, historical neighborhoods that were torn down to make way for I-375.
In Dallas, things were no different. The easiest way to find some of the locations of Dallas’ original Freedman’s Towns is to trace the path of the highways.
This wasn’t a passive, accidental kind of racism either; some of the most powerful planners in America were forthright about their intention to use their power as transportation engineers to rewire a society built on racial and economic segregation.
If you want to dispute it further we can take it to the US thread but it's only fair and reasonable for me to express my disagreement with yours and others portrayal of how the US government treats political dissent.
I'm glad another Chinese came here to leave a message，More Chinese people to express their views can let you know more about the real China. I don't know whether it is the media or other reasons.I found that some people's view of China is actually China in 1950 or 1960。 At that time, the war had just stopped, China was still full of turmoil, and there were still various struggles at the top of the Communist Party of China。 The great cultural revolution launched the struggle against the "four olds", that is, all kinds of persecution of religions, which happened 50 years ago。 In 1983, due to the very poor public security, many hooligans and gangsters. At this time, Deng Xiaoping proposed a three-year strike hard to crack down on all kinds of hooligan crimes, including some unjust, false and wrong cases. However, after these three years, the social atmosphere has improved a lot. As for Chinese real estate, the house bought by the Chinese belongs to the Chinese, but the land under the house does not belong to the Chinese. The Chinese own the ownership of the house, but the land is only leased to you by the state. The term of residential land is generally 70 years, and the term of commercial land is generally 40 years. If the state wants to requisition the land under your house for other construction land, it will compensate you with cash or a new house at the market price, Your house was forcibly demolished 10 years ago. Now it basically doesn't exist. By the way, Chinese people don't have to pay annual property tax on their real estate, but now the government wants to levy this tax, and almost the whole country opposes it. We really can't criticize President Xi in public. It's no problem in private，If you make such comments on the network, the administrator will usually delete them, and you won't have any problems. However, if your comments are read by a large number of people and have a very bad impact, the police will come to you for questioning to see if the situation needs to deal with you. As SSIII said, Chinese people really don't care much about politics. Maybe the reason for life stress or Chinese people don't have votes or other reasons.
On June 22 2022 11:14 JimmiC wrote: The persecution of Buddhist's, Muslims, Christians, and basically religions is ongoing. It is disingenuous and flat out wrong to say it happened 50 years ago, maybe that is when it started, no signs of it stopping sadly.
My grandmother and my mother are devout Buddhists and have never been persecuted. I also have relatives who are Christian and have never been oppressed. There are no Muslims in my family, but the streets are full of all kinds of Lanzhou ramen, all of which are opened by Muslims. I don't know where you got this information. China is an atheist country, but there are still many folk Buddhists. Only the cult organizations are strictly forbidden in China. The well-known one is Falun Gong. I saw Falun Gong books when I was a child. It is childish and terrible. The teaching of Falun Gong is that you should not go to the hospital when you are sick, and you will be fine if the leader does what he does，you won't be able to cure yourself. The religious leader will let the believers hurt themselves. It's terrible. If you say that banning cult organizations is religious persecution, you are right. We don't allow harmful cult organizations
See, but this is kind of the thing. You are always aware of the fact that if you do something which is contrary to the ruling party, and police gets to know it, they will bother you about it. So you basically constantly need a mental filter to consider if the thing you say may get you in trouble.
This is not the case here. If i have a sticker similar to the one mentioned above, but with any german politician on it, under no circumstances will the police call me to "have a talk". If i don't like something, i can just say so, without fear of repressions, or police coming to "have a talk".
And honestly, the way you handle Xi is kind of on point here. "Spiritual leader" "If i ever were dissatisfied (which i obviously not am), then i could do something like that, but obviously no one would ever really do that, because Xi is so awesome"
If that is really the consensus in China, then something weird is going on. Either people don't dare to say what they really believe, or they are fed a very restricted diet of information. No matter how good a leader is, there will always be people who are dissatisfied, or want something else. If you cannot find them, then they are hiding, which means that something weird is going on.
From the sentence "which I obviously not am" I believe you are a real German guy Well, if you never intend to do anything contrary to the ruling party or say things that get you introuble, do you really constantly need a mental filter? You don't even feel the existance of a mental filter. I don't need to drive to work with vigilance， thinking if I did anything unproper or if any of my behaviors were suspicious to anyone. That's something the Japnese do, not us. As I said Xi is more like a "spiritual leader", it doesn't mean we will follow him to do anything or with full respect. I personally have no "feelings" about Xi or whoever the leader is. He published some books and showed on CCTV-1 constantly, but neither do I read his books or watch CCTV-1, people are busy at making money, who really cares the politics nowadays? As you are a German, I believe you people had a past to follow the wrong one blindly. So I guess German students are taught to think more independly on this "bliefs in national leader" part. I have watched movies like "Die Welle" /"Das boot"/“ Das Leben der Anderen”, these movies are also well-known in China. The Chinese are not living in a bubble, Alles Klar?
The infamous 1-child policy, or offcially "family planning policy" started in the late 1970s, and written into the modified constitution in 1982, the goverment called on her people to follow the policy for the good of the nation until 2007 when its ended. The birth rate dropped for 5.8(!) at 1970 to 2.24 at 1980. The policy says "Every family in cities or towns should have 1 child only, and should be relaxed in rural areas ", notice here, the 1-child policy applied strictly only in the Han provinces, the national minorities allow to have 2-3 children. I believe terrible things happened in many places especially the backward places with brainless local governers. I checked the number of newborns in 1975 is 2012万，which is 20.12million, let's make a calculation here, if 1/10000~1/1000 forced abortion happens next year, 2~20 thousands terrible tragedy happened, yearly. But people are people, not brainless animals, what will you do if you were carring the 2nd baby? Usually you face a fine of at least several months' income, or you try to bribe officers in charge, if you have no money you might run away to remote relatives or to another place became a tramp or try find a job in contruction site, after the baby is born, no one can do anything about it. In rural areas , protests could be more violent, you know , in villages, every family is well known to the others, if one family face such a threat, every villageman would take actions to stop it. So in many areas the policy meets great obstacles. I was born in the 1980s, have a twin brother, in a city, my parents didn't pay money for it ,but my family lost some preferentials like tax-reliefs. Those who have one child will be rewarded like $3-10/monthly. I never heard of any abortion stories from my parent or others in our small city, but I do hear some terrible stories on rural areas, and I saw 2-3 families who run away from their place to our city. I am not trying to justify the policy, it is against human nature, but the they do have a reason, there are way too many people in China, whenver I took a train in the 1990s or 2000s I can barely stand on my feet. Some researches on Chinese polpulation shows that there will be another 200millon people than we have today if the 1-child policy were never applied. Ironically, The goverment encourage us to have 2 or 3 kids since 2016, but which fool will do that at such a high living cost today? attachment: yearly birth population of China （年=year 万=10thousands） 1949年：1275万 1950年：1419万 1951年：1349万 1952年：1622万 1953年：1637万 1954年：2232万 1955年：1965万 1956年：1961万 1957年：2138万 1958年：1889万 1959年：1635万 1960年：1402万 1961年：949万 1962年：2451万 1963年：2934万 1964年：2721万 1965年：2679万 1966年：2554万 1967年：2543万 1968年：2731万 1969年：2690万 1970年：2710万 1971年：2551万 1972年：2550万 1973年：2447万 1974年：2226万 1975年：2102万 1976年：1849万 1977年：1783万 1978年：1733万 1979年：1715万 1980年：1776万 1981年：2064万 1982年：2230万 1983年：2052万 1984年：2050万 1985年：2196万 1986年：2374万 1987年：2508万 1988年：2445万 1989年：2396万 1990年：2374万 1991年：2250万 1992年：2113万 1993年：2120万 1994年：2098万 1995年：2052万 1996年：2057万 1997年：2028万 1998年：1934万 1999年：1827万 2000年：1765万 2001年：1696万 2002年：1641万 2003年：1594万 2004年：1588万 2005年：1612万 2006年：1581万 2007年：1591万 2008年：1604万 2009年：1587万 2010年：1588万 2011年：1600万 2012年：1635万 2013年：1640万 2014年：1687万 2015年：1655万 2016年：1786万 2017年：1723万 2018年：1523万 2019年：1465万 2020年：1200万 2021年：1062万
On June 21 2022 15:54 pebble444 wrote: Is there freedom of religion in China to practice publicly and peacefully your religion (I.e. the freedom to meet and pray in a mosque, or church, or whatever religion?) no. Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either. Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No. Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really. (If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today.
Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back.
But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore.
Hi, I've lived in China for the last ten years and thought I'd answer your questions.
Is there freedom of religion in China? Yes, of course. My mother and father in law go to an Anglican church every week (or at least they did before they were closed due to the Shanghai lockdown). And there are more than 20,000 mosques in China compared to about 2,800 in the US.
Is there freedom to openly criticise the government policies and decisions? Yes, or course. The criticisms of the handling of the Shanghai lockdown lead to many changes in policy and whenever the government is considering large changes they typically first open a public forum for people to post their opinions and suggestions, then when they have prepared the policy they will post it pubically and again open it to public criticism. Now it's true that they are limits to the ways in which you can criticise and some topics are more open to criticism than others but to say that you can't openly criticise government policies is incorrect.
Is there freedom to buy your own house? Is this a really question? Yes, of course. My wife and I bought our apartment in 2019, don't really know what to say about this.
Do you have freedom to have kids? Yes, you can have as many children as you want but you may have to pay a social tax on some of them until they are 18. Previously there was the one child policy but now that is removed and people can have two or three children depending on whether they themselves are single children. It's also important to remember that these are the laws but they are only implemented in the large cities. It was very common for people in smaller cities to have multiple children during the one child policy.
Three males to one female aged 25-40. That would mean there are 300 males for every 100 females. Considering that in the total population there are 105 males for every 100 females and there are about 37 million more males than females in a population of 1.4 billion it is statistically impossible for that to be true.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will.
This is very general so its hard to reply to, so I'll just say that China has caught up to the United States in life expectancy and has a lower rate of wealth inequality than the US. Also China has completely eliminated extreme poverty in the country by a huge government investment in housing, infrastructure, health care and education, while the number of unhoused people in America keeps rising.
Hope that cleared up some of your misconceptions about China and I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have 😀
Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No.
In china You cannot buy and own a house in your name. What is done is you lease it long term from the goverment. Not sure of the exact details, like people actually buy houses and apartments, but it’s not legally theirs. This way the goverment can easily kick you out should it decides it needs the space for some public works.
In the construction of the hugest hydroelectric plant in the world, this was the case. Millions of people where displaced to make way for the country massive need of power.
Reports have shown that uygers are not allowed to leave their province, to move freely to other parts of China, unless they want to go to Kazakhstan, which is mostly a Muslim country,
"Reports have shown that uygers are not allowed to leave their province, to move freely to other parts of China"
Reports from where? I live in Shanghai and there are lots of people from Xinjiang who live here. There are tonnes of Xinjiang restaurants and street food stalls. The staff there speak to each other in their local language despite it being banned according to western sources. The restaurants also have local Xinjiang script on the sign, menu and decorations inside despite that also allegedly being banned.
Don't know what reports you are referring to but they are demonstrably incorrect.
Interesting discussions and I hope that they stay civilized while we learn more from each other's side. By the way I live in Vietnam, a country with a similar ideology. Almost everybody is vaccinated (we love vaccines and are cowards, unlike Westerners ^^), so now everybody is moving freely without masks and hospitals aren't overloaded at all, in fact I would say the doctors have a bit too much free time on their hand (in some hospitals).
We used many types of vaccines, the dirt-cheap Astra-Zeneca, the expensive Moderna, to the dubious Sinopharm. I would say that even if some vaccines are more effective than others, ALL of them definitely help to stop the spread of the virus.
So I would argue that if 99% of the Chinese population get vaccinated on time (once every 6 months) and open their economy, their health system would not collapse.
I live in a comparetivly small city in China (with 5million residents!) and people around me mostly get 2 shots of vaccine, which are made in China, for free. I guess 20% population got the 3rd vaccine too. 3rd vaccine is not free ,but cheap enough, I was planting to get it in Feb, but then came the lockdown, during the lockdown when people are tested like every week, you are not advised to get the 3rd vaccine. Now, it is too hot , over 35℃, I just don't intend to have it now, as life back to normal, It seems not so urgent
On June 23 2022 22:44 coloursheep wrote: Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized,
hello , only 1 question, what is " citizens under foreign Chinese occupation " 没听懂这句啥意思
On June 23 2022 22:44 coloursheep wrote: Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized,
hello , only 1 question, what is " citizens under foreign Chinese occupation " 没听懂这句啥意思
He was quoting pebble444's post. Many US and European people consider Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang as a sovereign nations occupied by China (especially Tibet).
This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
On June 24 2022 15:19 Ardias wrote: He was quoting pebble444's post. Many US and European people consider Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang as a sovereign nations occupied by China (especially Tibet).
I am not approval to their considerations, but they do have the right to consider anyway.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
You can alternative view points but not alternative no matter how much fox news you watch.
Lol they don't get fox news in China that would be way to western for them. It's all state media all the time.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
You can alternative view points but not alternative no matter how much fox news you watch.
Lol they don't get fox news in China that would be way to western for them. It's all state media all the time.
Not a lot different on the accuracy or alternative fact angle though, I also believe there was the claim of getting outside news easily though VPN.
You're right, it's trivial to access any news or blocked websites if that's something you want to do.
Fear of being hurt and fear of the loss of privilege; and also the fear of being hopeless and powerless to bring any kind of concrete change to the situation. When everything around you is regulated, from internet access to gaming, why would a person of young age try and even question the system that has been pulled in place to make you have a tunnel vision, wool over your eyes? It is neither convenient nor desirable when all you see around you is people having it worse than you, and you can create a personal philosophy based around the internet telling you that all is well, that you are living in freedom, that peoples rights are being respected, that our country has a right to impose on other cultures, other belief systems, both economically and philosophically.
Thus, slaves are born, but slaves that will defend the state, because they have been programmed and conditioned from birth, from their parents, from society, from school, from peers on the internet, that this is the way to think;
Instead of formulating your own belief system, you are pushed into believing that there is a greater good, and those who do not believe in it, either are foreigners, that do not understand our culture, or they are non-Chinese conformists, which have something inside of them that is fundamentally wrong.
This is how you can brainwash people into believing that what is happening, and what we believe in, is the righteous way to live life. It is enough to push away that feeling, sensation in the back of your brain, or your heart, that something is not quite right, even though you cannot really “put your finger on it”
On June 25 2022 03:30 pebble444 wrote: Fear of being hurt and fear of the loss of privilege; and also the fear of being hopeless and powerless to bring any kind of concrete change to the situation. When everything around you is regulated, from internet access to gaming, why would a person of young age try and even question the system that has been pulled in place to make you have a tunnel vision, wool over your eyes? It is neither convenient nor desirable when all you see around you is people having it worse than you, and you can create a personal philosophy based around the internet telling you that all is well, that you are living in freedom, that peoples rights are being respected, that our country has a right to impose on other cultures, other belief systems, both economically and philosophically.
Thus, slaves are born, but slaves that will defend the state, because they have been programmed and conditioned from birth, from their parents, from society, from school, from peers on the internet, that this is the way to think;
Instead of formulating your own belief system, you are pushed into believing that there is a greater good, and those who do not believe in it, either are foreigners, that do not understand our culture, or they are non-Chinese conformists, which have something inside of them that is fundamentally wrong.
This is how you can brainwash people into believing that what is happening, and what we believe in, is the righteous way to live life. It is enough to push away that feeling, sensation in the back of your brain, or your heart, that something is not quite right, even though you cannot really “put your finger on it”
I read your post 4~5 times, keep trying a self-examination to every aspects you mentioned above. You have a good understanding of brain-wash, and I don't think you have something inside you that is fundamentally wrong. Everyone creates a personal pilosophy based on his personal life, your understanding of Chinese people is also based on your personal life. You can not really "understand" people simply with logics and analysis, it's not mathmatics. It's really complicated. Just an example, you may had spent 10 years with your wife, thinking that you know everything about her, and yet someday she might do something that is completly out of you expectations. I know it is really hard to totally understand eachother, however, it is still possible for people to work together though they differ so much on everything. I am not here to judge, I am here with ears.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression.
The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression.
The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression.
The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
For some reason China can only come up with denials and bizarre accusations like the gloom filter to discredit BBC and the like.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression.
The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
In principle yes if there's sufficient evidence. I've changed my views on many things over my lifetime. In the specific case of Xinjiang it's unlikely I will change my mind. There's enough evidence that Uighurs are locked up and oppressed on a massive scale.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression.
The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
In principle yes if there's sufficient evidence. I've changed my views on many things over my lifetime. In the specific case of Xinjiang it's unlikely I will change my mind. There's enough evidence that Uighurs are locked up and oppressed on a massive scale.
Unlikely is good enough for me.
Let's start with something basic. Western media and governments claim and the CCP is trying to destroy the Uyghur culture by banning the Uyghur language by forcing Uyghurs to learn mandarin and not allowing Uyghur script be used. Do you believe that that this is true?
Yesterday evening on a dinner table I happened to meet a guy from Xinjiang, he has darker eyebrows and longer arm hair, doesn't look like a typical Han. I asked him carefully if he had heard of anything about reeducation there, he said yes, the whole village, man or women, children or old, are taken by bus to a place,receive a 3-day education on national policies, and I asked if any torment or killing had happened,"not from what I know",he smiled,give me a quick look which made me feel embarrassed,so I stopped asking. I don't know if it is reliable for you, maybe "they are all machinegunned" or "I have never seen them again" seemed more reliable? Xinjiang and Tibet belong to China quite long ago, you can find them on Tang Dynasty(around A.D600) maps ， they were liberated from the kuomintang(the party fled to taiwan after losing the civil war in mailand china) army in around 1949~1951. It was 70 years ago, if CCP were hostile to the Uygurs,with probably the strongest land force, she can easily wipe out the whole race at any time.Why the Uygurs and Tibetians suddenly became a main problem in recent years?Isn't it intriguing. I am just tired of sharing and explaining, I am out. Even if the gov decide to nuke all the Urgurs to end this debate permanently, it's not my fault.
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote: This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression.
The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
In principle yes if there's sufficient evidence. I've changed my views on many things over my lifetime. In the specific case of Xinjiang it's unlikely I will change my mind. There's enough evidence that Uighurs are locked up and oppressed on a massive scale.
Unlikely is good enough for me.
Let's start with something basic. Western media and governments claim and the CCP is trying to destroy the Uyghur culture by banning the Uyghur language by forcing Uyghurs to learn mandarin and not allowing Uyghur script be used. Do you believe that that this is true?
What I believe is that Uyghurs in Xinjiang are interned on a massive scale without due process. In the internment camps they're raped, tortured, forced into labour, forcefully sterilised, and many more human rights abuses. This includes being forced to learn Mandarin and children being seperated from their parents and culture.
China in the eyes of westerners and China in the eyes of Chinese people are completely two worlds。 In the eyes of Westerners, we are brainwashed. We all live in fear. China is full of concentration camps. I wonder if this is also a kind of brainwashing for Westerners? From the perspective of a Chinese, what the Chinese people said before is the real China. Although they look at China from multiple perspectives, their views are not 100% the same, but this is the real China
Whether immigrants like China or not, they must say that China is bad abroad. This is politically correct and can better integrate into foreign countries. There are also many immigrants who hide their identity in China, live abroad as immigrants, and live in China as Chinese.This kind of person makes money in China and scolds China behind its back. This kind of person is very hypocritical There are also some second-generation officials and the second-generation rich families who have emigrated abroad. They only keep their father who is an official in China or their father who makes money in China. If they are caught breaking the law, they are doomed to scold China all their lives. In addition to these immigrants, there are still some who cannot live in China and hope to go abroad to change their destiny. Such people will certainly hate China. There are also some overseas students, not all of them here. There must be some people who must do this in order to better integrate into foreign countries. They say that China is very good in China and that abroad is very good. We have seen many such news reports in China.
I’m a little confused by this idea that they’re forced to criticize China to socially integrate abroad. Very few of my social interactions involve criticism of China, even with Chinese people. You could talk about the weather or food or movies etc.
On June 28 2022 13:55 KwarK wrote: I’m a little confused by this idea that they’re forced to criticize China to socially integrate abroad. Very few of my social interactions involve criticism of China, even with Chinese people. You could talk about the weather or food or movies etc.
Exactly. There is this weird feeling that Zergling is living in a different world than I do. They claim a lot of stuff very authoritatively which does not fit very well to anything i have experienced.
On June 28 2022 13:55 KwarK wrote: I’m a little confused by this idea that they’re forced to criticize China to socially integrate abroad. Very few of my social interactions involve criticism of China, even with Chinese people. You could talk about the weather or food or movies etc.
Exactly. There is this weird feeling that Zergling is living in a different world than I do. They claim a lot of stuff very authoritatively which does not fit very well to anything i have experienced.
Yeah, so many chineses disappeared abroad after tweeting good things about china. Wait, no, that was the opposite. People are disappearing after criticizing the ccp. I'm getting quite tired of people living in an alternate reality assuring me that the sky is indeed green instead of blue.
Frankly speaking, the few Chinese who posted here are the few Chinese who are pro-west ,otherwise they would not have the interest to master the language and give responses. The Chinese are generally nice to foreigners, and I thought the westners could be more gentlemanlike.However ,some people just jumped out to critisize on things with no firm evidences in an arrogant altitude, which had erased my last good impressions of the west. A very recent (June23rd) news is that, The Economist, an Influential magazine in the educated westners, twitt a post with the title " In 2019 pigs ate 431m tonnes of grain, 45% more than the people of China did"---- I didn't know when and why they degradated themselves to such a level, even pupils wouldn't have composed such a title. Basic politeness is lost, I have a foreboding feeling that maybe someday the East and the West will step into war before they barely know eachother. I had prepared some bad words for the people who tried to ban me and tried spreading irrational hateful speeches, but forget it....
On June 30 2022 22:27 SSIII wrote: Frankly speaking, the few Chinese who posted here are the few Chinese who are pro-west ,otherwise they would not have the interest to master the language and give responses. The Chinese are generally nice to foreigners, and I thought the westners could be more gentlemanlike.However ,some people just jumped out to critisize on things with no firm evidences in an arrogant altitude, which had erased my last good impressions of the west. A very recent (June23rd) news is that, The Economist, an Influential magazine in the educated westners, twitt a post with the title " In 2019 pigs ate 431m tonnes of grain, 45% more than the people of China did"---- I didn't know when and why they degradated themselves to such a level, even pupils wouldn't have composed such a title. Basic politeness is lost, I have a foreboding feeling that maybe someday the East and the West will step into war before they barely know eachother. I had prepared some bad words for the people who tried to ban me and who tried spreading irrational hateful speeches, but forget it....
On June 30 2022 22:27 SSIII wrote: Frankly speaking, the few Chinese who posted here are the few Chinese who are pro-west ,otherwise they would not have the interest to master the language and give responses. The Chinese are generally nice to foreigners, and I thought the westners could be more gentlemanlike.However ,some people just jumped out to critisize on things with no firm evidences in an arrogant altitude, which had erased my last good impressions of the west. A very recent (June23rd) news is that, The Economist, an Influential magazine in the educated westners, twitt a post with the title " In 2019 pigs ate 431m tonnes of grain, 45% more than the people of China did"---- I didn't know when and why they degradated themselves to such a level, even pupils wouldn't have composed such a title. Basic politeness is lost, I have a foreboding feeling that maybe someday the East and the West will step into war before they barely know eachother. I had prepared some bad words for the people who tried to ban me and tried spreading irrational hateful speeches, but forget it....
you shoulda taken more time to master the language than get triggered by something so simple like the words pig and china being in the same sentence, then accuse westerners of china hate.
I apologize if my posts have been rude, without decorum, and impolite; my intention was not to hurt peoples’ s feelings;
My intention was however to trigger the discussion; and to bring awareness to someone who might not know that this is going on. I saw a soft approach and dancing around the bush as they say, in the initial posts of this thread. So I stated what for me, from my point of view, was obvious.
This thread is called the politics of China. Not the food of China, not the history of China, not the language of the Chinese;
For example, I can tell you that I have a lot of esteem for Confucius, and he is a role model for me, someone to which I look up to. He is to me one of the great persons of humanity, an outstanding persona. The only regret I have is that we do not truly know what his music sounded like (yes, he has been called a master musician too, among other things)
To me this thread was not about these things. It was about exposing the hard times that some Chinese citizens are suffering everyday repeatedly, tirelessly, and without any empathy.
If it was cases of isolated incidents, then it would not be a political problem;
I also understand that it is custom in “far east” Asian countries to have a non direct approach to topics, but rather trying to comunicate to comunicate something.
I also must keep insisting that from my research these problems going on are very real, and those things, are happening right now as we speak.
Now I also understand that it is very dangerous for you to speak out against any of these things. You might lose your job, lose your living quarters, or your freedom. You might lose everything. Please try and consider that they are some Chinese citizens that do not have the liberty to lose those things, as since they where born, they never had them to begin with. Because you live with a goverment that will privilege those who believe in it, and oppress those that critisize it;
I have though for a while and did more research before posting again. My answer does not change. I must stand clear in that. But I do apologize if I hurt your feelings
I wonder why so much excitement after the death of a former PM of Japan?
Chinese nationalists on social media used phrases including "Open Champagne!" to celebrate the death of Japan's former Prime Minister Abe Shinzo, who was assassinated Friday morning while giving a campaign speech in support of a candidate in the ruling Liberal Democratic Party.
Abe, 67, was shot at twice on Friday approximately 11:30 a.m. local time in the city of Nara, close to Kyoto, while he was giving a campaign speech for Kei Sato, a fellow Liberal Democratic Party member and a national election candidate.
Abe was rushed to hospital in a helicopter and later died at 5.03 p.m, bleeding to death from two wounds on the right side of his neck, a doctor told a televised news conference.
Born on September 21, 1954, Abe belonged to a political family and held various responsible positions. His grandfather Nobusuke Kishi was Prime Minister of Japan from 1957 to 1960 and his father Shintaro Abe was the country’s Foreign Minister from 1982 to 1986.
Abe first became Prime Minister in 2006. He again held the post in 2012 and was re-elected in 2014 and 2017 with his continued stint gave stability to the country while ushering in faster growth. He announced his resignation in August 2020 as a chronic illness resurfaced.
Shinzo Abe has been characterised in Chinese state media to be a warmongering militarist who seeks to recreate the Empire of Japan and invade China. Imagine nazi, but actual nazi party, not just as an euphemism. Since the state media is the only source of world news without seeking deliberately with a VPN it's no suprise that Chinese netizens react in such a way. This characterisationis of course utter nonsense, though it is true that he oversaw an increased defence spending and reinterpreted the Japanese Constitution to make legal the use of Japanese military abroad in aid of an ally.
OK, now this I think is similar and another outworldly absurd thing. Chinese seem to be raging over a VTuber signing up for a VTuber agency (calling for boycott of said agency) because she happened to mention Taiwan on stream once 2 years ago.
It's mind-boggling that there can be so much hate...
Some unrests are starting in China. Local banks in Henan province (backed by the central bank) have had all of their money stolen by the local government, bank owners etc. and sent off shore. A lot of people around the country (not just Henan province) have lost their life savings and can no longer access their accounts or the banking system. 40-50k people were supposedly affected for a total of $6 billion.
When they started to flock to Henan to find out what happened a lot of them suddenly got red COVID codes (meaning they're banned from travel), which started more unrests and made people lose trust in the 0 COVID policy once they saw how it can be used to control them. Anyone who managed to get to Henan to protest (about a thousand people) got chased away by gangs of local thugs.
In other news, in 200 housing projects across 50 cities people are refusing to pay mortgage. Looks like the housing market is finally collapsing in China.
More and more big cities are getting under lockdown, including big tech centers like Shenzen.
This all looks really bad for the Chinese economy.
Henan authorities are under tremendous pressure to stop the protests. But depositors remain undeterred. As the issue drags on, many have become ever more desperate to recover their savings. Huang, the depositor from Wuhan, lost his job in the medical cosmetology industry this year, as businesses struggled in the pandemic. Yet he is unable to withdraw any of his life savings -- of over 500,000 yuan ($75,000) -- from a rural bank in Henan. "Being unemployed, all I can live on is my past savings. But I can't even do that now -- how am I supposed to (support my family)?" said Huang, whose son is in high school. Sun, from Shenzhen, is struggling to keep his machine factory from bankruptcy after losing his deposit of 4 million yuan ($597,000) to a Henan bank. He can't even pay his more than 40 employees without the funds.
Sun said he was covered in bruises and had a swollen lower back after being repeatedly stomped by security guards at the protest. "The incident completely overturned my perception of the government. I've lived all my life placing so much faith in the government. After today, I'll never trust it again," he said.
As a Chinese, coming here to answer the true thoughts of Chinese people will always be treated maliciously. Because I use translation software, I may not be able to express my meaning correctly. The differences in customs and some taboos that are not respected may not be understood by non Chinese people. For example, using pigs to describe Chinese people is a very malicious swearing word. Dogs are human friends. In China, Using dogs to describe Chinese people is also a malicious word. Japan and China have hatred for hundreds of years, not just World War I and World War II，Those who are not familiar with Chinese history may not understand it very well,In World War II alone, 35million people were killed or injured in China, all thanks to Japan. Shinzo Abe's grandfather was a famous war criminal, and Shinzo Abe also constantly visited the Yasukuni Shrine. Chinese people are unlikely to like Shinzo Abe.
The problem in Henan has caused public anger, and everyone is criticizing the Henan government. As for the bank, that bank is a private bank. It uses financial instruments to do fraud and uses higher interest rates to absorb funds from all over the country on the Internet. Now compensation is being paid in batches, starting with depositors below 50000 yuan, and then large depositors. To be honest, it is not clear how much compensation can be paid. Now deal with this matter. It is true that the parade was violently dealt with that day, and netizens all over the country expressed dissatisfaction.But the Chinese government's practice is not to expose this matter, and then solve the problem of depositors' funds. The question about real estate is like this,Do you know what uncompleted residential flats are? In China, the full payment has been made before the house is built. This part of the funds is in a special bank account. Part of the house is built and part of the funds are given to the real estate developers. Only after all the funds are built, can all the funds be given to the real estate developers. The actual situation is that before the house is built, all these funds are given to the real estate developers, and then the real estate developers get the money and run away or fail to invest, resulting in the failure of building the house, which is uncompleted residential flats.This is not a built house. Therefore, the buyer does not pay the loan, although this will affect the credit investigation. Usually, the government will negotiate to deal with this problem, recruit new developers and give preferential policies to deal with uncompleted residential flats. However, the reason for the COVID-19 is that China's economy is not good enough, so many problems have also been exposed. China's control of real estate has led banks not to lend to real estate developers,Various reasons have led to the problem of real estate. This year, the Chinese government has given many preferential policies to help the real estate market, but it has not played a big role. As long as the house can be completed and built normally,The buyer will definitely pay the loan.
On July 12 2022 04:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Shinzo Abe has been characterised in Chinese state media to be a warmongering militarist who seeks to recreate the Empire of Japan and invade China. Imagine nazi, but actual nazi party, not just as an euphemism. Since the state media is the only source of world news without seeking deliberately with a VPN it's no suprise that Chinese netizens react in such a way. This characterisationis of course utter nonsense, though it is true that he oversaw an increased defence spending and reinterpreted the Japanese Constitution to make legal the use of Japanese military abroad in aid of an ally.
Political discussion operate very similar to religion / ideology rather than science, so this kind of discussion probably don't do anything. Also, not having the best english or argument skill I'd think if it is a good idea to engage in this kind of thing.
It is well known that Abe visit the Yasukuni shrine every year. The shrine that host the remain / ash of the war criminals of WWII including Japan emperor / high ranking officials. Abe only stop visiting it when there is heavy criticism from asia countries, including south korea, not just china. But even then he send donation / offering to the shrine every year.
He also refuse repeated call for apology of the war crime / atrocities the Japanese committed during WWII. He never even consider saying things similar to "the WWII bring suffering to the people in asia". He also said Japan (as a country, not the people), is victim of the WWII. He also think Japan's action in WWII is just / righteous.
I have hard time believing Abe is a peace loving pacifist.
If we substitute the name with germany, It will look like this:
"He visit the church that host Hilter's grave every year*. He refuse to apologize for the acttion of germany during WWII, and think germany is the victim of WWII. He think germany act in line with just / righteous that it initiate the WWII."
The above statement absolutely does not sound like neo-nazi, right?
* Just an analogy, Hilter probably do not have a burial site, apology for the lack of history knowledge
Believe it or not, I actually do not have access to china state media, so it would be a bit hard to be brainwashed by it.
On July 12 2022 05:00 Manit0u wrote: OK, now this I think is similar and another outworldly absurd thing. Chinese seem to be raging over a VTuber signing up for a VTuber agency (calling for boycott of said agency) because she happened to mention Taiwan on stream once 2 years ago.
It's mind-boggling that there can be so much hate...
I find it kinda absurd that it's spilling over so much even in the online entertainment industry.
I looked at the twit, but it does not contain anything regarding the original statement that caused the whole episode of event. But I don't have the interest to dig up all the information related to this event.
However, I really doubt the chinese is going to rage over anyone mentioning Taiwan, it is not like they call that ' the place that shall not be named' or something like that. If that person is stating something similar to ' Taiwan is country', that is a different scenario.
As for the action of ban / blacklist / boycott actor / performer for their 'political' related statement, it is as old as anyone, if we look back in history, in the USA, during McCarthyism, it is well known that anyone who sympathize with communism will get shit on. Locally, it is known that in the 70's to 80's, if an actor work with / for Chinese project, or even saying that china is his motherland, will get him blacklisted by the taiwan indefinitely. There are very popular / best actor award contender with his career deleted overnight just because of that.
And more recently, we see a wave / movement to ban / blacklist / boycott performer / athlete / musician just because of their origin of birth, and it seems most of the people agree with that. I don't see how banning a VTuber for their action can be seen as more absurd than that.
I know the above paragraph is (kind of) whataboutism, and I don't necessarily agree / endorse to ban / blacklist / boycott people for their political statement (politician excluded). But saying this is more absurd than everything we are witnessing is probably not the most consistent in the rule set in determining 'absurdness'.
On July 12 2022 05:00 Manit0u wrote: OK, now this I think is similar and another outworldly absurd thing. Chinese seem to be raging over a VTuber signing up for a VTuber agency (calling for boycott of said agency) because she happened to mention Taiwan on stream once 2 years ago.
It's mind-boggling that there can be so much hate...
I find it kinda absurd that it's spilling over so much even in the online entertainment industry.
I looked at the twit, but it does not contain anything regarding the original statement that caused the whole episode of event. But I don't have the interest to dig up all the information related to this event.
However, I really doubt the chinese is going to rage over anyone mentioning Taiwan, it is not like they call that ' the place that shall not be named' or something like that. If that person is stating something similar to ' Taiwan is country', that is a different scenario.
As for the action of ban / blacklist / boycott actor / performer for their 'political' related statement, it is as old as anyone, if we look back in history, in the USA, during McCarthyism, it is well known that anyone who sympathize with communism will get shit on. Locally, it is known that in the 70's to 80's, if an actor work with / for Chinese project, or even saying that china is his motherland, will get him blacklisted by the taiwan indefinitely. There are very popular / best actor award contender with his career deleted overnight just because of that.
And more recently, we see a wave / movement to ban / blacklist / boycott performer / athlete / musician just because of their origin of birth, and it seems most of the people agree with that. I don't see how banning a VTuber for their action can be seen as more absurd than that.
I know the above paragraph is (kind of) whataboutism, and I don't necessarily agree / endorse to ban / blacklist / boycott people for their political statement (politician excluded). But saying this is more absurd than everything we are witnessing is probably not the most consistent in the rule set in determining 'absurdness'.
The incident in question was when Vtuber pointed out that Taiwan is listed as a separate country in Google Analytics (she was checking her own analytics at the time). That's it. I find the response is quite inappropriate and blown way out of proportion.
But there were other "problems" found with Vtubers, like one of them noticing that Hong Kong and Taiwan are censored words in Genshin Impact chat.
That stuff is mainly just crazy brainwashed people with nothing better to do than hate on someone else, because that gets them recognition and praise from their peers. It is definitely not state sanctioned.
Of course, this sort of behavior is tacitly encouraged, with the aim of focusing the discontent of Chinese netizens outwards instead of towards the government.
Its kinda of ironic, having a private bank under a communist society; but then again this happens in Cuba and Venezuela then again, the goverment seeying stuff they propose does not work, then giving some license to private citizens; Imagine living in a country where your bank can arbitrarily block your funds for whatever reason, and labeling you as a public health treat when you try to say something about it. Yeah people are angry, taking away their money will make them angry.
The next step is of course blocking peoples money when they socially behave badly;
This regime needs to fall, for the world to be a better place for Chinese people, and other people living in foreign countries as well
It's hard to understand some of China's behaviors without understanding China's history. China has been in a feudal society for more than 2000 years.China also has thousands of years of civil war.The Chinese are also a country that desperately desires peace and stability,China is also a country with a population of 1.4 billion. Even if only 1% of the population is dissatisfied with the government, it is a staggering 14million people.Can any country achieve a government support rate of more than 70-80%? If more than 20% of the people who are dissatisfied with the government in China are hundreds of millions of people, can you imagine a civil war of hundreds of millions of people? China has never had a history of peaceful regime change. Any regime change in history is a hundred years of civil war and tens of millions of casualties. First, there must be some Chinese people who are dissatisfied with the government, but when it comes to regime change, there are not many people who are extremely dissatisfied. Second, Chinese people don't like war, especially civil war, including possible war against Taiwan. Except for the older people, young people don't want war to happen. Third, in case of any mass dissatisfaction, the current government's practice is to try not to let the media publicize on a large scale, but the central government will let the local government try to solve the emergencies perfectly and appease the people's anger. Chinese people are also the most hardworking people,Chinese people are also the most tolerant people,It is difficult to change the regime，The majority of Chinese people do not want this.
Yeah I kinda cast doubt on the tolerant part, there are too many cases of outrage for little things like people badmouthing China or calling Taiwan a country. I get that this might be a somewhat small percentage of the Chinese while a lot of them just don't care, but the nationalist totalitarian mindset also clearly supported by the Chinese government as cases like f.e. the Chinese envoy threatening Swedish journalists show and the impression is that it's generally on the rise. Overall my impression is that if you say anything bad about China online you're in for a shitshow.
Also a democracy is arguably a system that allows for a peaceful transition (even if it fails on occasion), while a dictatorship is essentially just repeating the past mistakes of totalitarian rule. Still interesting to read a different view on this and I f.e. kinda get the hostility against Japan, even if I personally think that it'd be better to let these things go as the normalization of f.e. German and French relations have shown.
I think you’re misinterpreting what he meant by tolerant. There’s tolerance as in being open to new ideas and people and there’s tolerance as in being willing to endure discomfort. Given the broader context of his post he was describing a Chinese willingness to put up with a lot of bullshit from their government in the name of internal peace and stability. The gotcha doesn’t really work when he wasn’t saying they’re the friendliest people, just the most stoic.
It might be so, but he mentioned that it has to be so because of the sheer number of people living in China. That is not true at all. India has 100 million more people, speaking over 440 different languages in a country 1/3 the size of China and they make it work. Sure, there is plenty of bad stuff to be said about India but they're definitely way more open towards others and not as totalitarian.
He also mentioned that CCP just hands over most of the governing to the local governments so transitioning into a democracy with federal government (like USA and India have) shouldn't be that hard...
He gave lots of historical context too. His argument amounted to “China has spent so much time actively destroying itself that people are generally unwilling to rock the boat and view any day in which they have both food and safety as a generally acceptable day”. He’s not wrong about Chinese history in that regard.
On July 21 2022 01:23 Manit0u wrote: It might be so, but he mentioned that it has to be so because of the sheer number of people living in China. That is not true at all. India has 100 million more people, speaking over 440 different languages in a country 1/3 the size of China and they make it work. Sure, there is plenty of bad stuff to be said about India but they're definitely way more open towards others and not as totalitarian.
He also mentioned that CCP just hands over most of the governing to the local governments so transitioning into a democracy with federal government (like USA and India have) shouldn't be that hard...
China implemented the federal system thousands of years ago, and without exception, it has become a civil war, because the subordinate government of the Federation wants to become the emperor in the end, or different federal governments carry out civil war. The development of China is uneven. Poor places are very poor, and rich places are very rich. Some places feel more developed than developed countries, and some places feel poorer than Africa. The Chinese are famous for their diligence and for their love of infighting. Infighting is particularly fierce when interests are uneven. If China implements a federal system, it will be a civil war of hundreds of millions of people, which has been the case for thousands of years. Again, due to the problem of translation software, the meaning of expression is not necessarily 100% accurate. Just as I use translation software to see your words, some are strange.
Basically every country has poorer and richer regions. Some are more focused on agriculture, other on tech and finance, others still on industry. I really don't know why you're assuming the worst possible scenarios. Are Chinese people so used to the authoritarian government that they wouldn't be able to set aside some differences without Cerberus breathing down their necks? Others somehow make it work, in Germany for example it's not uncommon for richer regions to help prop up the poorer ones (like Frankfurt or Hamburg building a whole new central railway station for Berlin as a gift). It's all about cooperation instead of constant fighting.
Put these chinese sentences which is readable for any chinese in your google translation and I am afraid you won't have a clue what I am talking about. Language barrier is probably a factor that makes China looks so mysterious, because the Chinese Language is so damn hard, a foreigner, nomatter how gifted in languages he/she is, after 10+years learning Chinese, he/she might still have a problem in reading Chinese papers, not to speak of netizen slangs. However, the Chinese people can get 90+% of your meaning after yeas learning English. The outside world is transparent to the Chinese while China looks vague and barely perceptible. I don't see a solution to this problem, though foreigners have free access to chinese websites, they still get lost in translation, some of them might have learned japnese/korea and will face same problems though the 2 languages are much much easier. What is worse is that youtube are banned in China and people don't even stir themselves to get a VPN, so we can not really focus our debate on the same thing. People stick to their own views and no one find it is easy to persuade the otherside.
On July 21 2022 12:54 winteriscoming wrote: @[JXSA].Zergling跟这些沙吊争论个什么吉尔？这不对牛弹琴吗？真是先吃萝卜淡操心，拖裤子放批，越说这些龟孙越来劲儿。有这劲儿哪怕看看毛片不香吗？
Put these chinese sentences which is readable for any chinese in your google translation and I am afraid you won't have a clue what I am talking about. Language barrier is probably a factor that makes China looks so mysterious, because the Chinese Language is so damn hard, a foreigner, nomatter how gifted in languages he/she is, after 10+years learning Chinese, he/she might still have a problem in reading Chinese papers, not to speak of netizen slangs. However, the Chinese people can get 90+% of your meaning after yeas learning English. The outside world is transparent to the Chinese while China looks vague and barely perceptible. I don't see a solution to this problem, though foreigners have free access to chinese websites, they still get lost in translation, some of them might have learned japnese/korea and will face same problems though the 2 languages are much much easier. What is worse is that youtube are banned in China and people don't even stir themselves to get a VPN, so we can not really focus our debate on the same thing. People stick to their own views and no one find it is easy to persuade the otherside.
On July 21 2022 12:54 winteriscoming wrote: @[JXSA].Zergling跟这些沙吊争论个什么吉尔？这不对牛弹琴吗？真是先吃萝卜淡操心，拖裤子放批，越说这些龟孙越来劲儿。有这劲儿哪怕看看毛片不香吗？
Put these chinese sentences which is readable for any chinese in your google translation and I am afraid you won't have a clue what I am talking about. Language barrier is probably a factor that makes China looks so mysterious, because the Chinese Language is so damn hard, a foreigner, nomatter how gifted in languages he/she is, after 10+years learning Chinese, he/she might still have a problem in reading Chinese papers, not to speak of netizen slangs. However, the Chinese people can get 90+% of your meaning after yeas learning English. The outside world is transparent to the Chinese while China looks vague and barely perceptible. I don't see a solution to this problem, though foreigners have free access to chinese websites, they still get lost in translation, some of them might have learned japnese/korea and will face same problems though the 2 languages are much much easier. What is worse is that youtube are banned in China and people don't even stir themselves to get a VPN, so we can not really focus our debate on the same thing. People stick to their own views and no one find it is easy to persuade the otherside.
你这用的还是谐音字，外国人就算学习10年中文也很难看懂你写的中文是什么意思。
我还没用拼音，火星字之类的呢。就是完全正常的字他们学十年也看不懂的，有老外写文章说过这个问题。你说的那些话他们根本听不进去滴，而且好像除了你那几个国人都给封了把。 If the 1billion Chinese netizens are allowed to visit every website freely, then twiiter ,youtube,porntube would be looking like Chinese websites.
Every language has certain quirks and homophones that would make anyone but native speaker stumble (and sometimes even native speakers, stuff like 施氏食獅史). There are languages that are harder to learn than Mandarin (like one dialect in Ural mountains where they have 64 cases in their grammar). Language is not that big of a barrier since people have been successfully communicating with each other for thousands of years. Sure, some languages are harder to learn than others but not impossible. You even have cases of people in the US speaking better Chinese than people in China, despite not having visited China once in their life.
It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
One thing that sets China apart from other large countries like the US, is that each region speaks its own dialect, which is basically unintelligible to other Chinese speakers. To be from Guangzhou vs Shanghai: that's a much bigger difference in culture and language than say, Chicago vs New York. And so local identity is more powerful than in other countries. You would have expected China to be more like the European Union, with independent nation-states forming a larger political entity, but the difficult part is keeping everything under one banner.
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: Every language has certain quirks and homophones that would make anyone but native speaker stumble (and sometimes even native speakers, stuff like 施氏食獅史). There are languages that are harder to learn than Mandarin (like one dialect in Ural mountains where they have 64 cases in their grammar). Language is not that big of a barrier since people have been successfully communicating with each other for thousands of years. Sure, some languages are harder to learn than others but not impossible. You even have cases of people in the US speaking better Chinese than people in China, despite not having visited China once in their life.
It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
Yeah, I agree strongly with this and Asian cultures have a bad habit of falling for the temptation to say it's impossible for foreigners to learn. Can a person study for ten years and speak Mandarin better than native speakers? Of course not. But Chinese immigrants to the US learn to speak English and get by, but they do not speak English better than most Americans and they have to put up with jokes about their accents or their occasional errors.
I think the bigger problem is that the number of Chinese who want to learn English and move to a Western country compared to the number of Westerners who want to learn Mandarin and move to China might literally be like 10,000 to 1.
I don't know if China dreams of a day when that proportion reverses itself. It has actually happened for South Korea, which went from a big net outflow of people in the 80s to now having a big net inflow of people. I think China's big cities are attracting foreigners in decent numbers now.
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
The ridiculous house price makes it hard to attract foreigners, in top 10 chinese cities house price is over $5,000 per square meter or $600 per square feet(valid for 70years).And it is really hard for a foreigner to get a "green card" in our country ,especially nowadays, when every foreigner is considered a possible "covid carrier". Our 0-covid policy seems absurd to most foreigners, however we are pround of it because everyone feels safe. From political perspectives, the goverment want a stable situation, social STABILITY is of highest priority as always. As to the taiwan problem, I personally don't give a shoot about it, if you talk to me face to face annoucing that taiwan is a country ,I won't be mad, if they want independence they can try, they will come back to "Mother's arms" sooner or later,maybe in 3 years or 5 or 10 or 50, whatever.
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
Because the old posters were considered fake chinese and tagged with nukes?
Well another thing that is becoming evident more and more is that one Chinese poster says “the majority of people want this”
What I gather is however “ I have a good social and economical status in China as is, so please don’ t talk about changing things” .
Now I understand that to some degree it is considered rude and Uneducated to openly critisize anything up front and publicly like this in Asian cultures. Weather it be a restaurant or a goverment. But consider this: people have been cohersed and violently repressed, and are even still now. Chinese people. And foreigners under Chinese occupied territories. See Hong Kong for the first claim and Tibet for the second. When more than 1 million people take the streets, well, that speaks for itself. All kinds of people. When a spiritual leader of a country is in exile, that speaks for itself as well.
And no, I don’ t believe your words are being misinterpretated because of google translate. You seem like a person that expresses themselves with clarity, to me.
Yours is a case of privilege. Not the first nor the last that will happen in the world. You live in a privileged way, so no wonder you will defend the CCP with all your energies. If you said something against your goverment, that could be used against you in a court of law, and you could lose such privileges and even embarrass your family, which is another I believe very important thing to avoid in Asian countries.
Lastly, the Chinese people who would have something critical to say about the situation in china, are probably more closely monitored that your internet activity.
OK, let me make it clear, the first Chinese shared oppions in this thread is fakovski, he is 100% Chinese, and thanks to the holy-shit-stirrer Mr.JimmC, who advised to ban him in the name of PBU or fake Chinese simply because that fakovski quoted some native speaker's speech. What is more ridiculous is that the next several Chinese were banned too by the hateful snitch. So If you ban most chinese in this post ,whom do you discuss with? Maybe you guys just want to hear your own voices？ I noticed that some reasonable guys stopped talking because they were attacked for different voices. Well, same things happened in other threads. I will stop talking too. But it is no fun to view a post on china without the chinese posters, more or less like a long masturbation without sperm.
On July 22 2022 01:30 pebble444 wrote: Well another thing that is becoming evident more and more is that one Chinese poster says “the majority of people want this”
What I gather is however “ I have a good social and economical status in China as is, so please don’ t talk about changing things” .
Now I understand that to some degree it is considered rude and Uneducated to openly critisize anything up front and publicly like this in Asian cultures. Weather it be a restaurant or a goverment. But consider this: people have been cohersed and violently repressed, and are even still now. Chinese people. And foreigners under Chinese occupied territories. See Hong Kong for the first claim and Tibet for the second. When more than 1 million people take the streets, well, that speaks for itself. All kinds of people. When a spiritual leader of a country is in exile, that speaks for itself as well.
And no, I don’ t believe your words are being misinterpretated because of google translate. You seem like a person that expresses themselves with clarity, to me.
Yours is a case of privilege. Not the first nor the last that will happen in the world. You live in a privileged way, so no wonder you will defend the CCP with all your energies. If you said something against your goverment, that could be used against you in a court of law, and you could lose such privileges and even embarrass your family, which is another I believe very important thing to avoid in Asian countries.
Lastly, the Chinese people who would have something critical to say about the situation in china, are probably more closely monitored that your internet activity.
You are wrong from head to toe, in China you need not to be in a previleged class to learn English and post in english forums or more closely monitored. I am from a quite common family. The only reason I post here is that I am good at starcraft:broodwar.
Says he will stop talking, immediately starts talking again.
I gotta ask do you really think people believe your lies? Like we were just there not that long ago and can see in clear text what happened not 25 pages of posts ago.
On July 22 2022 01:30 pebble444 wrote: Well another thing that is becoming evident more and more is that one Chinese poster says “the majority of people want this”
What I gather is however “ I have a good social and economical status in China as is, so please don’ t talk about changing things” .
Now I understand that to some degree it is considered rude and Uneducated to openly critisize anything up front and publicly like this in Asian cultures. Weather it be a restaurant or a goverment. But consider this: people have been cohersed and violently repressed, and are even still now. Chinese people. And foreigners under Chinese occupied territories. See Hong Kong for the first claim and Tibet for the second. When more than 1 million people take the streets, well, that speaks for itself. All kinds of people. When a spiritual leader of a country is in exile, that speaks for itself as well.
And no, I don’ t believe your words are being misinterpretated because of google translate. You seem like a person that expresses themselves with clarity, to me.
Yours is a case of privilege. Not the first nor the last that will happen in the world. You live in a privileged way, so no wonder you will defend the CCP with all your energies. If you said something against your goverment, that could be used against you in a court of law, and you could lose such privileges and even embarrass your family, which is another I believe very important thing to avoid in Asian countries.
Lastly, the Chinese people who would have something critical to say about the situation in china, are probably more closely monitored that your internet activity.
You are wrong from head to toe, in China you need not to be in a previleged class to learn English and post in english forums or more closely monitored. I am from a quite common family. The only reason I post here is that I am good at starcraft:broodwar.
Edit: let’s talk about the ccp and how it’s affecting Chinese citizens
In a thread discussing China, you don't want to hear the views of the Chinese people. Is this thread meaningful? In the middle, there was no reply from the Chinese for a week, and this thread basically stalled. Kissinger is a person who knows China better. You can learn about him to help you understand China. The Communist Party of China is not equal to the Chinese government, and the Chinese government is not equal to China，I don't like or hate these two.The only thing I love is China this country. China is a large country with a population of 1.4 billion, with various social and practical problems, but these problems do not necessarily attract your special attention. Your concern will always be Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong and Taiwan. These things have been said many times in previous posts, It doesn't make much sense to keep repeating the same thing. Besides, ordinary Chinese people rarely pay attention to things in these places, unless there is a serious riot or terrorist attack. Tibet has never heard of terrorist attacks, and the only thing they know is the Dalai Lama who heard of them once a few years, The terrorist attacks in Xinjiang seem to have been ten years ago (regardless of Han or Uygur, the massacre of ordinary people is basically East Turkistan, a terrorist recognized by the whole world). The recent terrorist attacks in Hong Kong are bewitched young people around the age of 20 (not only attacking the police government, but also innocent ordinary people who have been seriously injured). In fact, our media rarely report on Taiwan, Unless there are arms sales and US leaders' visit to Taiwan will be mentioned. What you like to see is the incessant riots all over China? Does the government keep killing or suppressing ordinary people? Only such information can excite you? I come here to discuss with goodwill. I can spend a few minutes here every day talking about all kinds of problems in all aspects of China, provided that you really want to know these things, are interested in all aspects of China, and are interested in hot issues in China in the near future.
On July 22 2022 10:30 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: In a thread discussing China, you don't want to hear the views of the Chinese people. Is this thread meaningful?
It would be more meaningful if Chinese posters did try to participate in the discussion at hand instead of constantly trying to change the subject.
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: Every language has certain quirks and homophones that would make anyone but native speaker stumble (and sometimes even native speakers, stuff like 施氏食獅史). There are languages that are harder to learn than Mandarin (like one dialect in Ural mountains where they have 64 cases in their grammar). Language is not that big of a barrier since people have been successfully communicating with each other for thousands of years. Sure, some languages are harder to learn than others but not impossible. You even have cases of people in the US speaking better Chinese than people in China, despite not having visited China once in their life.
It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
Yeah, I agree strongly with this and Asian cultures have a bad habit of falling for the temptation to say it's impossible for foreigners to learn. Can a person study for ten years and speak Mandarin better than native speakers? Of course not. But Chinese immigrants to the US learn to speak English and get by, but they do not speak English better than most Americans and they have to put up with jokes about their accents or their occasional errors.
I think the bigger problem is that the number of Chinese who want to learn English and move to a Western country compared to the number of Westerners who want to learn Mandarin and move to China might literally be like 10,000 to 1.
I don't know if China dreams of a day when that proportion reverses itself. It has actually happened for South Korea, which went from a big net outflow of people in the 80s to now having a big net inflow of people. I think China's big cities are attracting foreigners in decent numbers now.
do you have a source for this? because i highly doubt thats true
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: Every language has certain quirks and homophones that would make anyone but native speaker stumble (and sometimes even native speakers, stuff like 施氏食獅史). There are languages that are harder to learn than Mandarin (like one dialect in Ural mountains where they have 64 cases in their grammar). Language is not that big of a barrier since people have been successfully communicating with each other for thousands of years. Sure, some languages are harder to learn than others but not impossible. You even have cases of people in the US speaking better Chinese than people in China, despite not having visited China once in their life.
It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
Yeah, I agree strongly with this and Asian cultures have a bad habit of falling for the temptation to say it's impossible for foreigners to learn. Can a person study for ten years and speak Mandarin better than native speakers? Of course not. But Chinese immigrants to the US learn to speak English and get by, but they do not speak English better than most Americans and they have to put up with jokes about their accents or their occasional errors.
I think the bigger problem is that the number of Chinese who want to learn English and move to a Western country compared to the number of Westerners who want to learn Mandarin and move to China might literally be like 10,000 to 1.
I don't know if China dreams of a day when that proportion reverses itself. It has actually happened for South Korea, which went from a big net outflow of people in the 80s to now having a big net inflow of people. I think China's big cities are attracting foreigners in decent numbers now.
do you have a source for this? because i highly doubt thats true
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: Every language has certain quirks and homophones that would make anyone but native speaker stumble (and sometimes even native speakers, stuff like 施氏食獅史). There are languages that are harder to learn than Mandarin (like one dialect in Ural mountains where they have 64 cases in their grammar). Language is not that big of a barrier since people have been successfully communicating with each other for thousands of years. Sure, some languages are harder to learn than others but not impossible. You even have cases of people in the US speaking better Chinese than people in China, despite not having visited China once in their life.
It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
Yeah, I agree strongly with this and Asian cultures have a bad habit of falling for the temptation to say it's impossible for foreigners to learn. Can a person study for ten years and speak Mandarin better than native speakers? Of course not. But Chinese immigrants to the US learn to speak English and get by, but they do not speak English better than most Americans and they have to put up with jokes about their accents or their occasional errors.
I think the bigger problem is that the number of Chinese who want to learn English and move to a Western country compared to the number of Westerners who want to learn Mandarin and move to China might literally be like 10,000 to 1.
I don't know if China dreams of a day when that proportion reverses itself. It has actually happened for South Korea, which went from a big net outflow of people in the 80s to now having a big net inflow of people. I think China's big cities are attracting foreigners in decent numbers now.
do you have a source for this? because i highly doubt thats true
In 2007 the UN declared South Korea an official receiving country. The number of foreigners in South Korea grew from 390,000 in 1997 to 1 million in 2007. Among these are 630,000 temporary laborers, as well as 100,000 foreigners married to South Korean nationals. Furthermore, there are 230,000 illegal immigrants.
The chart on the page has 2.5 million immigrants in South Korea as of 2019. Note that 60% of these immigrants come from China, Vietnam, and Thailand.
By contrast, the population of Korean immigrants in the US went from 290k in 1980 to 1.1 million in 2010, settling down to a little over a million in 2019.
I haven't seen much discussion of China from Chinese posters in this thread just attempts to shut down or deflect what's actually being talked about and insistence that reality isn't true.
You have a one party state that has no accountability to the people. The ccp is the Chinese government and therefore controls what we see coming out of china. If they didn't want us to talk about the things they're doing they shouldn't do them.
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: Every language has certain quirks and homophones that would make anyone but native speaker stumble (and sometimes even native speakers, stuff like 施氏食獅史). There are languages that are harder to learn than Mandarin (like one dialect in Ural mountains where they have 64 cases in their grammar). Language is not that big of a barrier since people have been successfully communicating with each other for thousands of years. Sure, some languages are harder to learn than others but not impossible. You even have cases of people in the US speaking better Chinese than people in China, despite not having visited China once in their life.
It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
Yeah, I agree strongly with this and Asian cultures have a bad habit of falling for the temptation to say it's impossible for foreigners to learn. Can a person study for ten years and speak Mandarin better than native speakers? Of course not. But Chinese immigrants to the US learn to speak English and get by, but they do not speak English better than most Americans and they have to put up with jokes about their accents or their occasional errors.
I think the bigger problem is that the number of Chinese who want to learn English and move to a Western country compared to the number of Westerners who want to learn Mandarin and move to China might literally be like 10,000 to 1.
I don't know if China dreams of a day when that proportion reverses itself. It has actually happened for South Korea, which went from a big net outflow of people in the 80s to now having a big net inflow of people. I think China's big cities are attracting foreigners in decent numbers now.
do you have a source for this? because i highly doubt thats true
On July 21 2022 20:56 Manit0u wrote: Every language has certain quirks and homophones that would make anyone but native speaker stumble (and sometimes even native speakers, stuff like 施氏食獅史). There are languages that are harder to learn than Mandarin (like one dialect in Ural mountains where they have 64 cases in their grammar). Language is not that big of a barrier since people have been successfully communicating with each other for thousands of years. Sure, some languages are harder to learn than others but not impossible. You even have cases of people in the US speaking better Chinese than people in China, despite not having visited China once in their life.
It seems to me that whenever people are trying to discuss some problem that's arisen in China there suddenly appear new posters that change the subject of discussion, without even using any really good arguments...
Yeah, I agree strongly with this and Asian cultures have a bad habit of falling for the temptation to say it's impossible for foreigners to learn. Can a person study for ten years and speak Mandarin better than native speakers? Of course not. But Chinese immigrants to the US learn to speak English and get by, but they do not speak English better than most Americans and they have to put up with jokes about their accents or their occasional errors.
I think the bigger problem is that the number of Chinese who want to learn English and move to a Western country compared to the number of Westerners who want to learn Mandarin and move to China might literally be like 10,000 to 1.
I don't know if China dreams of a day when that proportion reverses itself. It has actually happened for South Korea, which went from a big net outflow of people in the 80s to now having a big net inflow of people. I think China's big cities are attracting foreigners in decent numbers now.
do you have a source for this? because i highly doubt thats true
In 2007 the UN declared South Korea an official receiving country. The number of foreigners in South Korea grew from 390,000 in 1997 to 1 million in 2007. Among these are 630,000 temporary laborers, as well as 100,000 foreigners married to South Korean nationals. Furthermore, there are 230,000 illegal immigrants.
The chart on the page has 2.5 million immigrants in South Korea as of 2019. Note that 60% of these immigrants come from China, Vietnam, and Thailand.
By contrast, the population of Korean immigrants in the US went from 290k in 1980 to 1.1 million in 2010, settling down to a little over a million in 2019.
i doubted the information because my understanding of immigration in korea recently is that immigration is generally declining. both your sources do not confirm each other and so for me neither source is credible. that said, up until 2020 the net migration rate was indeed positive for korea, if only marginal. immigration has been on a decline since 2019 whereas emigration has been on the rise. net migration for 2021 for migrants exceeding 90 days of travel is negative in korea. (official korean government source) https://kostat.go.kr/portal/korea/kor_nw/1/2/5/index.board?bmode=read&bSeq=&aSeq=419290&pageNo=1&rowNum=10&navCount=10&currPg=&searchInfo=&sTarget=title&sTxt=
On July 21 2022 21:59 gobbledydook wrote: One thing that sets China apart from other large countries like the US, is that each region speaks its own dialect, which is basically unintelligible to other Chinese speakers. To be from Guangzhou vs Shanghai: that's a much bigger difference in culture and language than say, Chicago vs New York. And so local identity is more powerful than in other countries. You would have expected China to be more like the European Union, with independent nation-states forming a larger political entity, but the difficult part is keeping everything under one banner.
Maybe for the US but that's not so much different from other regions in the world. Even in Poland, which is in center of Europe I don't have to travel more than a few hundred kilometers in each direction to reach a region where people speak a different dialect or a completely different language that I won't be able to understand. Add to this all the small diasporas and communities of various different people, each with their own language, religion etc.
You can't really make an argument for authoritarian, oppressive government being the only thing that holds a country together because other countries having diverse populations in terms of language and culture do make it work without resorting to it.
On July 22 2022 18:36 evilfatsh1t wrote: up until 2020 the net migration rate was indeed positive for korea, if only marginal. immigration has been on a decline since 2019 whereas emigration has been on the rise. net migration for 2021 for migrants exceeding 90 days of travel is negative in korea. (official korean government source)
I'm not sure we should really look at immigration numbers past 2019 just yet. I believe COVID might've skewed the numbers one way or another so it wouldn't be very reliable to draw any conclusions from this period. Not only you had more travel restrictions worldwide but I think also people's willingness to travel has diminished in addition to their ability to do so.
Pandemic and oncoming financial crisis are also affecting job markets, which will have a reflection in migration patterns across the world I would assume.
I am kinda suprised that I am not banned yet. One story I would share about CCP is that, once. an american guy who had a crush on a chinese girl who lives next to my door, and he came to me asking if l know where she would be because we were friends. I told him that she was a CCP member, he is astonished, and I never see him coming here again.... Well,. CCP is not as evil as you guys think , people join CCP mainly because they want some privilige in promotion,... I don't really like CCP member for this reason because I consider them as people motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain. However, it is a glory for the elder ones to join CCP when it is hard to join the CCP befrore 1990s' unless you did something to prove that you are qualified for a CCP member. CCP has no DIRECT influence to normal chinese, unless that you watch CCTV everyday or in a state company where the Party plays an important role in your compamy. Well , as it is suspected, talking about politics is strickly forbidden. So we don't really have a wide discusstion on themes like "when taiwan will come back" or" the evilness of NK "or" who is more righterous in UR-UA war." Some people are pro-russian because the next target would be clearly China if russian fell, some are pro-west because they believe what Russian had done is clearly beyond the international laws.
For me,it is a mixture of hate and love for Russians, Russia took 160K square killmeters of Chinese territory, and made Mongolia indenpent who belong to China before the 1920s. One the other hand , Russians helped China to build up an modern industrial system in 1953-1956, for which, the Chineses are still grateful today.
It is complicated to explain why China choose a neutrial position in the Russo-Ulkrainian war, but I think the ulkrainains should be grateful that China did not pick a side because if we do we will obviously not choose the NATO side, which represents only 30% of the world's population.
In a common Chinese's view, it is no good to take CCP down as CCP is doing welll on lifing people's living. And though we are questioned by many westners, we are not really willing to gain the respect of them, I think Gandhi is more respected in the West than Mao, but who leads his country to a big shit-hole? Who leads his army to beat the UN with only primary weapons in 1950s? I am not here to change people's mind, it is obviously of no use and not necessary, I don't want to fight with the westners,but as we are so different , we have differentt opinions on the same things in this thread.
I am not trying to provocate the westners, I am just reminding them that the huge difference do exist. I would share more if you didn't ban me.
On July 23 2022 02:45 winteriscoming wrote: In a common Chinese's view, it is no good to take CCP down as CCP is doing welll on lifing people's living. And though we are questioned by many westners, we are not really willing to gain the respect of them, I think Gandhi is more respected in the West than Mao, but who leads his country to a big shit-hole? Who leads his army to beat the UN with only primary weapons in 1950s? I am not here to change people's mind, it is obviously of no use and not necessary, I don't want to fight with the westners,but as we are so different , we have differentt opinions on the same things in this thread.
I am not trying to provocate the westners, I am just reminding them that the huge difference do exist. I would share more if you didn't ban me.
no one will ban you because you post your opinion, no matter how controversial it may be or sound. it' s your opinion, and like my opinion, i have the right to speak it out loud, and share information that i feel is true and relevant. you have that same right. the right to speak, to state your thoughts.
that' s on of the the basics of democracy. that you are free to share your thoughts. actually it' s kinda ironic that you are afraid of being banned for posting your opinion.
Ironic but not funny, that would be how the chinese communist party would act. you don' t agree with what we do? ban, and consequences. no freedom of speech.
you are safe here, you can and are encouraged to state your opinion, your finds, your ideas, your views on chinese politics, unlike in the chinese press, chinese websites. these forums are not owned by chinese state media, and that is why we are free to have this conversation in the first place.
On July 23 2022 02:45 winteriscoming wrote: In a common Chinese's view, it is no good to take CCP down as CCP is doing welll on lifing people's living. And though we are questioned by many westners, we are not really willing to gain the respect of them, I think Gandhi is more respected in the West than Mao, but who leads his country to a big shit-hole? Who leads his army to beat the UN with only primary weapons in 1950s? I am not here to change people's mind, it is obviously of no use and not necessary, I don't want to fight with the westners,but as we are so different , we have differentt opinions on the same things in this thread.
I am not trying to provocate the westners, I am just reminding them that the huge difference do exist. I would share more if you didn't ban me.
no one will ban you because you post your opinion, no matter how controversial it may be or sound. it' s your opinion, and like my opinion, i have the right to speak it out loud, and share information that i feel is true and relevant. you have that same right. the right to speak, to state your thoughts.
that' s on of the the basics of democracy. that you are free to share your thoughts. actually it' s kinda ironic that you are afraid of being banned for posting your opinion.
Ironic but not funny, that would be how the chinese communist party would act. you don' t agree with what we do? ban, and consequences. no freedom of speech.
you are safe here, you can and are encouraged to state your opinion, your finds, your ideas, your views on chinese politics, unlike in the chinese press, chinese websites. these forums are not owned by chinese state media, and that is why we are free to have this conversation in the first place.
Teamliquid isn’t a democracy and we do ban people for opinions. Freedom of speech means freedom from government punishment for saying the wrong thing, it doesn’t mean that individuals can’t kick you out of private spaces.
At the end of the video the gov gave in and agreed to cover the deposits of what they probably calculate to be most of the victims. If the remaining victims are a handful of millionaires they will most likely call them greedy for a pursuing high interest rates without due diligence and turn the rest of the people against them. Divide and conquer.
On July 23 2022 02:45 winteriscoming wrote: In a common Chinese's view, it is no good to take CCP down as CCP is doing welll on lifing people's living. And though we are questioned by many westners, we are not really willing to gain the respect of them, I think Gandhi is more respected in the West than Mao, but who leads his country to a big shit-hole? Who leads his army to beat the UN with only primary weapons in 1950s? I am not here to change people's mind, it is obviously of no use and not necessary, I don't want to fight with the westners,but as we are so different , we have differentt opinions on the same things in this thread.
I am not trying to provocate the westners, I am just reminding them that the huge difference do exist. I would share more if you didn't ban me.
Because Mao is responsible for dozens of millions of (chineses) deaths, while Gandhi initiated a peaceful non compliance movement. You can adulate Mao all you like, but I don't think anyone would if they studied the chinese revolution. If I understood you correctly, you don't know if you're rooting for Russia or not because of the shared history between your two countries. Why does it matter ? It's hard to find a clearer war of agression than this one.
On July 23 2022 02:24 winteriscoming wrote:Some people are pro-russian because the next target would be clearly China if russian fell, some are pro-west because they believe what Russian had done is clearly beyond the international laws.
If Russia falls, China will be its next target? How does that make any sense?
On July 23 2022 02:24 winteriscoming wrote:Some people are pro-russian because the next target would be clearly China if russian fell, some are pro-west because they believe what Russian had done is clearly beyond the international laws.
If Russia falls, China will be its next target? How does that make any sense?
They're saying the West would go after China next if Russia loses the war where it's the unprovoked aggressor. Even in that context that still doesn't make any sense because no one went after Russia. Russia went after Ukraine and Ukraine received indirect military aid in the form of weapons, ammunition, and intel.
On July 23 2022 02:24 winteriscoming wrote:Some people are pro-russian because the next target would be clearly China if russian fell, some are pro-west because they believe what Russian had done is clearly beyond the international laws.
If Russia falls, China will be its next target? How does that make any sense?
They're saying the West would go after China next if Russia loses the war where it's the unprovoked aggressor. Even in that context that still doesn't make any sense because no one went after Russia. Russia went after Ukraine and Ukraine received indirect military aid in the form of weapons, ammunition, and intel.
I know. I just wanted to point out the utter stupidity of their hot take.
On July 23 2022 02:24 winteriscoming wrote:Some people are pro-russian because the next target would be clearly China if russian fell, some are pro-west because they believe what Russian had done is clearly beyond the international laws.
If Russia falls, China will be its next target? How does that make any sense?
They're saying the West would go after China next if Russia loses the war where it's the unprovoked aggressor. Even in that context that still doesn't make any sense because no one went after Russia. Russia went after Ukraine and Ukraine received indirect military aid in the form of weapons, ammunition, and intel.
I know. I just wanted to point out the utter stupidity of their hot take.
Ah my apologies. I read your post as Russia's next target will be China if they lose the war vs Ukraine.
Isn't it clear enough? China is the No.1 threat to the "freedom world" or "world order" , the Americans expressed their thoughts directly since Mr.Trumph times and repeatly emphasize on this even today. Before russo-ulkrain war, we are in great conflict with the americans on economical and political fields. And now, Russians are taking more bullets, if they fell, the ONLY thing to worry about is China for those who believe it is comfortable to live in a world where Americans are dominant. I know some western countries don't really like American dominance, but they think even it is not very good but still better than in a world where Chinese are dominant.- does my logic make sense? I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand. We are not a threat to the free world. If someday China took the 1st place, the world could be more peaceful, but I think the Americans will try their best to stop us. We can expect more conflicts between China and USA in the near future. Maybe years later we can find a thead on Sino-American War? We are avoiding conflicts with any country, but sometimes there's just no room for this. I didn't mean we chinese are peace-fonders while the americans are not. But the world is in the hand of politicians, bad things always happen against the majority‘s will. I think we are OKay, though we do have political problems. I know you are good too, and you have your problems too. Humans are stupidly keep fight agaist eachother, as someone said, the only thing we learned from history is that we didn't learn anything from history.
On July 23 2022 02:24 winteriscoming wrote:Some people are pro-russian because the next target would be clearly China if russian fell, some are pro-west because they believe what Russian had done is clearly beyond the international laws.
If Russia falls, China will be its next target? How does that make any sense?
Essentially if Russia would fail and Putin be overthrown and replaced by a pro-Western government, China would now be surrounded by enemies. Enemies that would, according to Chinese doctrine, be actively trying to suppress China's interests and growth.
On July 23 2022 12:51 winteriscoming wrote: Isn't it clear enough? China is the No.1 threat to the "freedom world" or "world order" , the Americans expressed their thoughts directly since Mr.Trumph times and repeatly emphasize on this even today. Before russo-ulkrain war, we are in great conflict with the americans on economical and political fields. And now, Russians are taking more bullets, if they fell, the ONLY thing to worry about is China for those who believe it is comfortable to live in a world where Americans are dominant. I know some western countries don't really like American dominance, but they think even it is not very good but still better than in a world where Chinese are dominant.- does my logic make sense? I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand. We are not a threat to the free world. If someday China took the 1st place, the world could be more peaceful, but I think the Americans will try their best to stop us. We can expect more conflicts between China and USA in the near future. Maybe years later we can find a thead on Sino-American War? We are avoiding conflicts with any country, but sometimes there's just no room for this. I didn't mean we chinese are peace-fonders while the americans are not. But the world is in the hand of politicians, bad things always happen against the majority‘s will. I think we are OKay, though we do have political problems. I know you are good too, and you have your problems too. Humans are stupidly keep fight agaist eachother, as someone said, the only thing we learned from history is that we didn't learn anything from history.
This whole idiotic argument rests on the premise that it was American that instigated the war in Ukraine.
On July 23 2022 12:51 winteriscoming wrote: Isn't it clear enough? China is the No.1 threat to the "freedom world" or "world order" , the Americans expressed their thoughts directly since Mr.Trumph times and repeatly emphasize on this even today. Before russo-ulkrain war, we are in great conflict with the americans on economical and political fields. And now, Russians are taking more bullets, if they fell, the ONLY thing to worry about is China for those who believe it is comfortable to live in a world where Americans are dominant. I know some western countries don't really like American dominance, but they think even it is not very good but still better than in a world where Chinese are dominant.- does my logic make sense? I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand. We are not a threat to the free world. If someday China took the 1st place, the world could be more peaceful, but I think the Americans will try their best to stop us. We can expect more conflicts between China and USA in the near future. Maybe years later we can find a thead on Sino-American War? We are avoiding conflicts with any country, but sometimes there's just no room for this. I didn't mean we chinese are peace-fonders while the americans are not. But the world is in the hand of politicians, bad things always happen against the majority‘s will. I think we are OKay, though we do have political problems. I know you are good too, and you have your problems too. Humans are stupidly keep fight agaist eachother, as someone said, the only thing we learned from history is that we didn't learn anything from history.
This whole idiotic argument rests on the premise that it was American that instigated the war in Ukraine.
Not really. It's about being pragmatic. Russia being non aligned is more useful to China than one aligned to the west. We can disagree if that's a good/bad thing, but it isn't untrue.
I still don't understand how, if according to him China needs a strong suppressive goverment to function because infighting, how the world would be more peaceful if China was the biggest world superpower, if not the oppossite.
On July 23 2022 12:51 winteriscoming wrote: Isn't it clear enough? China is the No.1 threat to the "freedom world" or "world order" , the Americans expressed their thoughts directly since Mr.Trumph times and repeatly emphasize on this even today. Before russo-ulkrain war, we are in great conflict with the americans on economical and political fields. And now, Russians are taking more bullets, if they fell, the ONLY thing to worry about is China for those who believe it is comfortable to live in a world where Americans are dominant. I know some western countries don't really like American dominance, but they think even it is not very good but still better than in a world where Chinese are dominant.- does my logic make sense? I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand. We are not a threat to the free world. If someday China took the 1st place, the world could be more peaceful, but I think the Americans will try their best to stop us. We can expect more conflicts between China and USA in the near future. Maybe years later we can find a thead on Sino-American War? We are avoiding conflicts with any country, but sometimes there's just no room for this. I didn't mean we chinese are peace-fonders while the americans are not. But the world is in the hand of politicians, bad things always happen against the majority‘s will. I think we are OKay, though we do have political problems. I know you are good too, and you have your problems too. Humans are stupidly keep fight agaist eachother, as someone said, the only thing we learned from history is that we didn't learn anything from history.
This whole idiotic argument rests on the premise that it was American that instigated the war in Ukraine.
Not really. It's about being pragmatic. Russia being non aligned is more useful to China than one aligned to the west. We can disagree if that's a good/bad thing, but it isn't untrue.
I still don't understand how, if according to him China needs a strong suppressive goverment to function because infighting, how the world would be more peaceful if China was the biggest world superpower, if not the oppossite.
It's built on the assumption that the West went after Russia by making it start a genocidal war. In the real world, it is Russia that started a completely unprovoked war. What's more, the West did not try to destroy Russia at any point. Our politicians were perfectly happy to do business with Russia for decades. The same applies to China. The West has been helping it develop for the past several decades, in a mutually beneficial way.
On July 23 2022 18:02 maybenexttime wrote: This whole idiotic argument rests on the premise that it was American that instigated the war in Ukraine.
If you are interested in reading international politics, then Zbigniew Brzezinski's (national security adviser to former US president Carter)<The Grand Chessboard> is a must-read,then you will find who looks more like an idiot.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
On July 23 2022 21:54 winteriscoming wrote: None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island.
I think it's not a matter of returning Taiwan to China but returning mainland China to the Republic of China (Taiwan) since that's the original government and culture.
On July 23 2022 21:54 winteriscoming wrote: None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island.
I think it's not a matter of returning Taiwan to China but returning mainland China to the Republic of China (Taiwan) since that's the original government and culture.
yeah they tried to take back mainland china during the korean war in 1950 ,with the help of americans, and I think they dropped the plan when china developed atom bombs in 1964 and hydrogen bombs in 1967.
On July 23 2022 21:54 winteriscoming wrote: None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island.
I think it's not a matter of returning Taiwan to China but returning mainland China to the Republic of China (Taiwan) since that's the original government and culture.
yeah they tried to take back mainland china during the korean war in 1950 ,with the help of americans, and I think they dropped the plan when china developed atom bombs in 1964 and hydrogen bombs in 1967.
I think Chiang wanted to retake China, but he failed to receive support from the US, who didn't want to be involved in another bloody Civil War that would be much greater in scale than the Korean War.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
Ah, the peaceful chinese people who absolutely have no interest in expanding. And yet immediately there are threats of violence. Or what else is "then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. " supposed to mean.
Of course, it is easy to declare that you have no desire to expand when you can simply claim that whatever you would be expanding to is already a part of china.
And yeah, if Germany intended to "take back" its old land, like Königsberg, Alsace-Lorraine or Deutsch-Südwestafrika for example, that would also be aggressive expansion.
The current status quo with Taiwan is that it is factually an independent country, but the PRC is bullying everyone into playing some stupid charade where they act as if they are not. And if the PRC believed that it could take over Taiwan without american intervention, it would do so in seconds.
On July 23 2022 18:02 maybenexttime wrote: This whole idiotic argument rests on the premise that it was American that instigated the war in Ukraine.
If you are interested in reading international politics, then Zbigniew Brzezinski's (national security adviser to former US president Carter)<The Grand Chessboard> is a must-read,then you will find who looks more like an idiot.
I have read the book, as a matter of fact. You still look like an idiot for suggesting that the West is somehow to blame for Russia invading another country unprovoked.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
Keep telling yourself that, when japan/US/korea/australia are all making joint exercise with Taiwan to contain chineses expansion. The more you post, the more indoctrinated you look. Long live Mao, the savior of 70millions of chineses from this plane of existence.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
Sounds to me like you’re saying that PRC is really a breakaway part of ROC and should be reabsorbed into the one legitimate China.
The official line is that Mao was 50% good and 50% bad. According to the Party, Mao was a hero for "liberating" China and setting up the socialist state, and he made grave mistakes during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution that caused much unneeded suffering.
The ccp would never invade Taiwan even if the USA said they're leaving asia. The economic fallout from the loss of the chip factories would enrage the world and leave them as the last customer for the global shortage until it's resolved.
Also it's the greatest gift a dictatorial government could ask for, a target of free saber rattling that it can also do tons of trade with. It's the Chinese Israel.
I don't know what the definition of authoritarian government is in your eyes。 I think Belarus is an authoritarian government, Saudi Arabia is an authoritarian government, and Thailand is also an authoritarian government. But European and American countries treat them differently.Not every authoritarian government will be punished. Authoritarian governments can also be friends and partners of Europe and the United States. The communication between countries is only driven by the relationship of interests, and there is no forever friend or forever enemy. When the Soviet Union needed China to confront the United States, China and the Soviet Union were friends and China and the United States were enemies. When the United States needs China to confront the Soviet Union, China and the United States are friends and China and the Soviet Union are enemies. Now the trade war between China and the United States is very fierce, and Russia and the United States are also enemies, which has prompted China and Russia to unite. But directly invading another sovereign country is a very bad thing, and the continuous slaughter is despised by people. So for the war between Russia and Ukraine, China will not vote for Russia, but will not oppose it, either abstain or be neutral. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chinese companies acquired Ukraine's madasic company, and Trump's national security adviser Bolton personally landed in Ukraine by plane. After landing on the plane, he publicly ordered the Ukrainian government to prevent the acquisition of Chinese enterprises. Zelensky agreed to all the requirements put forward by Bolton and ordered the national department to stop approving the cooperation projects between Chinese and Ukrainian enterprises! In December 2020, Tianjiao company filed its first lawsuit against the Ukrainian government at the Permanent Court of arbitration in the Hague, demanding to compensate the Chinese side for the loss of $3.6 billion in accordance with the contract for its violation of the commercial contract! This is a contradiction between the Chinese government and the Ukrainian government that I know
Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.
It is true that western nations also work with authoritarian nations. I think this is problematic, but probably unavoidable. The reason people are currently opposing Russia is not because it is authoritarian. It is because Russia started an unprovoked war of aggression against another independent nation.
You try to build some weird Realpolitik picture here, when the truth is pretty simple. Every nation which is interested in an international order based on some kind of law, and where wars of aggression do not happen, needs to be opposed to Russia right now.
I have no clue why you start talking about the acquisition of some company in Ukraine through chinese companies now, and i am not really interested in that segway.
News today,China's top chipmaker achieves breakthrough despite US curbs. SMIC has started shipping 7nm chips, TechInsights says US suppliers need licenses to ship most advanced gear to SMIC
So, it seems cursing on china doesn't bring anything good.
CCP is now sending tanks to quell the protests (will we see the repeat of Tienanmen?) as problems escalate. In general it seems that Chinese economy is on the big downturn now as plenty of rich people want to flee China.
Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.
It is true that western nations also work with authoritarian nations. I think this is problematic, but probably unavoidable. The reason people are currently opposing Russia is not because it is authoritarian. It is because Russia started an unprovoked war of aggression against another independent nation.
You try to build some weird Realpolitik picture here, when the truth is pretty simple. Every nation which is interested in an international order based on some kind of law, and where wars of aggression do not happen, needs to be opposed to Russia right now.
I have no clue why you start talking about the acquisition of some company in Ukraine through chinese companies now, and i am not really interested in that segway.
International law is mostly enforced on small countries. Great powers use it when it suits them, and flout them when it doesn't. The case of Russia is particularly egregious, but I don't think Russia ever thought international law would bind them if they needed to do something. Neither would the US. They invaded Iraq despite it being completely illegal to do so.
Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.
It is true that western nations also work with authoritarian nations. I think this is problematic, but probably unavoidable. The reason people are currently opposing Russia is not because it is authoritarian. It is because Russia started an unprovoked war of aggression against another independent nation.
You try to build some weird Realpolitik picture here, when the truth is pretty simple. Every nation which is interested in an international order based on some kind of law, and where wars of aggression do not happen, needs to be opposed to Russia right now.
I have no clue why you start talking about the acquisition of some company in Ukraine through chinese companies now, and i am not really interested in that segway.
International law is mostly enforced on small countries. Great powers use it when it suits them, and flout it when it doesn't. The case of Russia is particularly egregious, but I don't think Russia ever thought international law would bind them if they needed to do something. Neither would the US. They invaded Iraq despite it being completely illegal to do so.
Sure, i am aware of that. International law is not really law, because there is no mechanism to enforce it upon an unwilling big country.
And yet the post-WW2 world is still a pretty good thing in general. No major wars between big countries in more than 70 years. That is basically something that is completely unheard of. The general shunning of accepting territorial expansion as a reason for war. Stuff is by far not optimal, but it is still better than anything we had before.
Will Pelosi visit Taiwan and Is that a wise decision, given the threats from "forceful measures" from China If that happens? Biden's administration and the Pentagon are against the visit:
"The Biden administration’s dispute with Speaker Nancy Pelosi over her planned trip to Taiwan next month spilled into public view this week when the president himself asserted that the military “thinks it’s not a good idea right now.”"
Surely the whole point of telling her not to go is to preempt any Chinese protest. She’s not a member of the Biden administration and Biden publicly asked her not to go. China can’t complain about the US position being aligned with their own. What Pelosi does is her own business.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
Ah, the peaceful chinese people who absolutely have no interest in expanding. And yet immediately there are threats of violence. Or what else is "then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. " supposed to mean.
Of course, it is easy to declare that you have no desire to expand when you can simply claim that whatever you would be expanding to is already a part of china.
And yeah, if Germany intended to "take back" its old land, like Königsberg, Alsace-Lorraine or Deutsch-Südwestafrika for example, that would also be aggressive expansion.
The current status quo with Taiwan is that it is factually an independent country, but the PRC is bullying everyone into playing some stupid charade where they act as if they are not. And if the PRC believed that it could take over Taiwan without american intervention, it would do so in seconds.
I bolded your wrongth( in my opinion). I meant, when diplomatic relationship is gone, all bussiness are gone, and 99% Germans living in China are bussiness related, so when there's no more bussiness why do they stay? I didn't mean their lives will be in danger. keonigsberg/alsace-lorraine is a different concept, you contry signed to give up these lands, and you were defeated in WWI&2, Japan can not claim to take back taiwan,not China. We do have the ability to take over Taiwan in seconds even with american intervention, but TW seems like a trap, we must consider carefully to choose the timing. The U.S utilize Taiwan as a chesspiece to contain China, while we are making it an useless one.
According to our propaganda, The euro/dollar exchange rate dropped over 10% since the war, and european politicians advised people to take less shower against higher gas price.I don't know if it is exaggerated, but it seems to me europeans paid alot for the sanctions on russia too.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
Ah, the peaceful chinese people who absolutely have no interest in expanding. And yet immediately there are threats of violence. Or what else is "then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. " supposed to mean.
Of course, it is easy to declare that you have no desire to expand when you can simply claim that whatever you would be expanding to is already a part of china.
And yeah, if Germany intended to "take back" its old land, like Königsberg, Alsace-Lorraine or Deutsch-Südwestafrika for example, that would also be aggressive expansion.
The current status quo with Taiwan is that it is factually an independent country, but the PRC is bullying everyone into playing some stupid charade where they act as if they are not. And if the PRC believed that it could take over Taiwan without american intervention, it would do so in seconds.
I bolded your wrongth( in my opinion). I meant, when diplomatic relationship is gone, all bussiness are gone, and 99% Germans living in China are bussiness related, so when there's no more bussiness why do they stay? I didn't mean their lives will be in danger. keonigsberg/alsace-lorraine is a different concept, you contry signed to give up these lands, and you were defeated in WWI&2, Japan can not claim to take back taiwan,not China. We do have the ability to take over Taiwan in seconds even with american intervention, but TW seems like a trap, we must consider carefully to choose the timing. The U.S utilize Taiwan as a chesspiece to contain China, while we are making it an useless one.
I’m amazed that you could believe such foolish things. PRC has no ability to cross the straits to attack ROC. It is not a naval power to rival the forces left in place in the straits by the US. You might as well say that ROC could take over PRC in seconds. It would be just as true.
Were PRC stupid enough to try their ships would be casually sunk by a US carrier fleet. Were PRC somehow able to destroy a carrier fleet the war would turn nuclear. PRC lacks true second strike capability, it would be able to make a US victory expensive but would be obliterated for its trouble.
You have been hitting the opium too hard my friend. PRC is not a naval power and amphibious assaults are exceptionally difficult even with naval supremacy.
Speaking of things goverment are supposed to do, the ccp agreed to not meddle into internal affairs in Hong Kong until 2047. They have broken their promise, setting up a puppet goverment, taking over the legislation process and bringing under Beijing influence, and making sure that key authority figures are selected instead of democratically elected by the people, to exercise the ccp program of transition to bring Hong Kong under regime control.
the ccp should leave Hong Kong and let it be a free independent nation. People from Hong Kong consider themselves Chinese, but want nothing to do with the dystopic goverment that is the ccp.
And speaking of invasions, the only foreign nation the ccp has has invaded and occupied is Tibet, which notoriously never had a standing army, refusing violence as a resolution.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
Ah, the peaceful chinese people who absolutely have no interest in expanding. And yet immediately there are threats of violence. Or what else is "then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. " supposed to mean.
Of course, it is easy to declare that you have no desire to expand when you can simply claim that whatever you would be expanding to is already a part of china.
And yeah, if Germany intended to "take back" its old land, like Königsberg, Alsace-Lorraine or Deutsch-Südwestafrika for example, that would also be aggressive expansion.
The current status quo with Taiwan is that it is factually an independent country, but the PRC is bullying everyone into playing some stupid charade where they act as if they are not. And if the PRC believed that it could take over Taiwan without american intervention, it would do so in seconds.
I bolded your wrongth( in my opinion). I meant, when diplomatic relationship is gone, all bussiness are gone, and 99% Germans living in China are bussiness related, so when there's no more bussiness why do they stay? I didn't mean their lives will be in danger. keonigsberg/alsace-lorraine is a different concept, you contry signed to give up these lands, and you were defeated in WWI&2, Japan can not claim to take back taiwan,not China. We do have the ability to take over Taiwan in seconds even with american intervention, but TW seems like a trap, we must consider carefully to choose the timing. The U.S utilize Taiwan as a chesspiece to contain China, while we are making it an useless one.
I’m amazed that you could believe such foolish things. PRC has no ability to cross the straits to attack ROC. It is not a naval power to rival the forces left in place in the straits by the US. You might as well say that ROC could take over PRC in seconds. It would be just as true.
Were PRC stupid enough to try their ships would be casually sunk by a US carrier fleet. Were PRC somehow able to destroy a carrier fleet the war would turn nuclear. PRC lacks true second strike capability, it would be able to make a US victory expensive but would be obliterated for its trouble.
You have been hitting the opium too hard my friend. PRC is not a naval power and amphibious assaults are exceptionally difficult even with naval supremacy.
Ah that's very interesting, I'm also amazed that you don't believe PLA has the ability to take the island in seconds. Our main artillery is type PHL-03, which has a horrible 480KM range(not 48). We have a 60thousands men airborne force , 3 elite divisions. Our missles and planes will block everything enters east china sea.We have 270 H-6 bombers and we are soon to declare H-20 stragetic stealth bomber whose performance is believed to surpass B21 or LRS-B. We have prepared for 70 years to take it.....think about it ,man. If you check on taiwanese forums you will find no twainese thinks they can hold 24hours if we decided to take some action. I don't where do you get the impression that mere US carrier fleets can stop us now. It's not in the 1990s, it's 2020s now.
We don't use opiums, holding any drug or weed is enough to put you in jail and 50grams heroin will arrange you meet a bullet. I guess we are quite a serious country on the things we about to do.
On July 25 2022 12:28 winteriscoming wrote: According to our propaganda, The euro/dollar exchange rate dropped over 10% since the war, and european politicians advised people to take less shower against higher gas price.I don't know if it is exaggerated, but it seems to me europeans paid alot for the sanctions on russia too.
All of those statements are false. And I think you might be confusing exchange rates with inflation that is affecting everyone and doesn't have that much to do with the war.
On July 25 2022 17:42 winteriscoming wrote: Ah that's very interesting, I'm also amazed that you don't believe PLA has the ability to take the island in seconds. Our main artillery is type PHL-03, which has a horrible 480KM range(not 48). We have a 60thousands men airborne force , 3 elite divisions. Our missles and planes will block everything enters east china sea.We have 270 H-6 bombers and we are soon to declare H-20 stragetic stealth bomber whose performance is believed to surpass B21 or LRS-B. We have prepared for 70 years to take it.....think about it ,man. If you check on taiwanese forums you will find no twainese thinks they can hold 24hours if we decided to take some action. I don't where do you get the impression that mere US carrier fleets can stop us now. It's not in the 1990s, it's 2020s now.
Russia also thought they had all the good stuff and could take Ukraine in the matter of days. Look where they are now...
If Taiwan was not separated from China by a sea it would have fallen long ago. It turns out, trying to ship tens of thousands of soldiers across water is very difficult to do if your opponent is shooting at them while they cross.
I think, we chinese, unlike the japnese, don't have a desire to expand.
You may think that, but you are incorrect. Taiwan.
Every nation who established diplomatic relations with China agreed on the premise that taiwan is part of china, that is the so called One-China principle. Noone forced your country to establish a diplomatic relation with us. If one day your foreign minister declared that taiwan is not part of china, then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. When Mao's army crushed the old goverment, they flee to taiwan, not japan,not korea,not mongolia.... is it because taiwan was chinese territory or it was a free land? Learn some history. Japan launched the Jiawu War（1895） of aggression against China and forced Qing Government to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. So you call a taking back of your own land is expansion? None of the American main politicians ever dare to say that, I would like to bet 50euros on that ,if Biden were to declare that taiwan is not part of china, then in the next 48hours, red flags would be all over the island. Howdareyou.jpg
Ah, the peaceful chinese people who absolutely have no interest in expanding. And yet immediately there are threats of violence. Or what else is "then I would advice all the germans living in china pack up to fly back homeland. " supposed to mean.
Of course, it is easy to declare that you have no desire to expand when you can simply claim that whatever you would be expanding to is already a part of china.
And yeah, if Germany intended to "take back" its old land, like Königsberg, Alsace-Lorraine or Deutsch-Südwestafrika for example, that would also be aggressive expansion.
The current status quo with Taiwan is that it is factually an independent country, but the PRC is bullying everyone into playing some stupid charade where they act as if they are not. And if the PRC believed that it could take over Taiwan without american intervention, it would do so in seconds.
I bolded your wrongth( in my opinion). I meant, when diplomatic relationship is gone, all bussiness are gone, and 99% Germans living in China are bussiness related, so when there's no more bussiness why do they stay? I didn't mean their lives will be in danger. keonigsberg/alsace-lorraine is a different concept, you contry signed to give up these lands, and you were defeated in WWI&2, Japan can not claim to take back taiwan,not China. We do have the ability to take over Taiwan in seconds even with american intervention, but TW seems like a trap, we must consider carefully to choose the timing. The U.S utilize Taiwan as a chesspiece to contain China, while we are making it an useless one.
I’m amazed that you could believe such foolish things. PRC has no ability to cross the straits to attack ROC. It is not a naval power to rival the forces left in place in the straits by the US. You might as well say that ROC could take over PRC in seconds. It would be just as true.
Were PRC stupid enough to try their ships would be casually sunk by a US carrier fleet. Were PRC somehow able to destroy a carrier fleet the war would turn nuclear. PRC lacks true second strike capability, it would be able to make a US victory expensive but would be obliterated for its trouble.
You have been hitting the opium too hard my friend. PRC is not a naval power and amphibious assaults are exceptionally difficult even with naval supremacy.
Ah that's very interesting, I'm also amazed that you don't believe PLA has the ability to take the island in seconds. Our main artillery is type PHL-03, which has a horrible 480KM range(not 48). We have a 60thousands men airborne force , 3 elite divisions. Our missles and planes will block everything enters east china sea.We have 270 H-6 bombers and we are soon to declare H-20 stragetic stealth bomber whose performance is believed to surpass B21 or LRS-B. We have prepared for 70 years to take it.....think about it ,man. If you check on taiwanese forums you will find no twainese thinks they can hold 24hours if we decided to take some action. I don't where do you get the impression that mere US carrier fleets can stop us now. It's not in the 1990s, it's 2020s now.
Wanting to take it for 70 years but being unable to do so isn’t the brag you think it is.
The US carrier fleet is sufficient to block any amphibious assault. Everything else the US has is sufficient to deter any attack on a US carrier fleet. We live in a world with exactly one superpower and it’s not China.
ok, you have do some reasons, but urkrainian have the whole NATO support and russians rushed into war with their old equipments, even so, americans stepped back, TW is an island, you can't even get close when PLA announce 200k㎡ is a forbidden zone. Maybe Americans woud not drop a single blood for TW.
One thing i feel gets completely ignored here is what the Taiwanese people want.
And from what i gather, they very much do not want to become part of the PRC. What right does the PRC have to take over an island with a population that does not want them there?
This should be the only thing that matters. Not that the PRC wants to have Taiwan. The will of the people living there.
Taking over a country with a population that does not want you there is an aggressive act of war. No matter if you declare that it is not a country and that you actually own it beforehand.
And the very peaceful chinese people who do not want to take any aggressive action seems to be salivating heavily just from the idea of starting this war.
I don't care if it was part of china before WW2. It is not now, and the people there do not want to be part of china. That should be respected, because anything else is oppression.
On July 25 2022 18:03 winteriscoming wrote: ok, you have do some reasons, but urkrainian have the whole NATO support and russians rushed into war with their old equipments, even so, americans stepped back, TW is an island, you can't even get close when PLA announce 200k㎡ is a forbidden zone. Maybe Americans woud not drop a single blood for TW.
China routinely declares water it’s sovereign territory and America routinely declares that the water is actually disputed and then disputes it by sailing a carrier group through it. You can announce as many forbidden zones as you like but nobody has to listen, it comes down to whether you’re willing to enforce it. China lacks the navy to deny a carrier group passage in disputed waters and even if it had the navy, they lack the second strike capability to try.
NATO isn’t in Ukraine because Ukraine isn’t in NATO. Some NATO powers are choosing to give Ukraine some second hand hardware, that’s all.
On July 25 2022 18:03 Simberto wrote: One thing i feel gets completely ignored here is what the Taiwanese people want.
And from what i gather, they very much do not want to become part of the PRC. What right does the PRC have to take over an island with a population that does not want them there?
This should be the only thing that matters. Not that the PRC wants to have Taiwan. The will of the people living there.
Taking over a country with a population that does not want you there is an aggressive act of war. No matter if you declare that it is not a country and that you actually own it beforehand.
And the very peaceful chinese people who do not want to take any aggressive action seems to be salivating heavily just from the idea of starting this war.
I don't care if it was part of china before WW2. It is not now, and the people there do not want to be part of china. That should be respected, because anything else is oppression.
My thoughts are not contradictory. I said we have the ability to take it , and to tell you the truth, I personally don't really like the land,taiwanese, in my eyes their boys are sissy and girls are shallow，if you watch their tv programmes..... they don't like us too, very well, if I were the supreme leader I would consider to let them get independent，cut-off relationship, and drive all the tw merchans outof mainland, in like 10 or 20 years they may regret on their choice, begging to rejoin the family.. sorry, our unfilial boy you should take the reponsibilies on your own. My thoughts are dangerous and naive I know,so I can only tell you guys .
On July 25 2022 18:03 Simberto wrote: One thing i feel gets completely ignored here is what the Taiwanese people want.
And from what i gather, they very much do not want to become part of the PRC. What right does the PRC have to take over an island with a population that does not want them there?
This should be the only thing that matters. Not that the PRC wants to have Taiwan. The will of the people living there.
Taking over a country with a population that does not want you there is an aggressive act of war. No matter if you declare that it is not a country and that you actually own it beforehand.
And the very peaceful chinese people who do not want to take any aggressive action seems to be salivating heavily just from the idea of starting this war.
I don't care if it was part of china before WW2. It is not now, and the people there do not want to be part of china. That should be respected, because anything else is oppression.
My thoughts are not contradictory. I said we have the ability to take it , and to tell you the truth, I personally don't really like the land,taiwanese, in my eyes their boys are sissy and girls are shallow，if you watch their tv programmes..... they don't like us too, very well, if I were the supreme leader I would consider to let them get independent，cut-off relationship, and drive all the tw merchans outof mainland, in like 10 or 20 years they may regret on their choice, begging to rejoin the family.. sorry, our unfilial boy you should take the reponsibilies on your own. My thoughts are dangerous and naive I know,so I can only tell you guys .
Why do you think those thoughts are dangerous and naive? They are factually already independent. Just make that official and get on with your lives. But somehow that is not possible and even dangerous?
Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
On July 25 2022 18:03 Simberto wrote: One thing i feel gets completely ignored here is what the Taiwanese people want.
And from what i gather, they very much do not want to become part of the PRC. What right does the PRC have to take over an island with a population that does not want them there?
This should be the only thing that matters. Not that the PRC wants to have Taiwan. The will of the people living there.
Taking over a country with a population that does not want you there is an aggressive act of war. No matter if you declare that it is not a country and that you actually own it beforehand.
And the very peaceful chinese people who do not want to take any aggressive action seems to be salivating heavily just from the idea of starting this war.
I don't care if it was part of china before WW2. It is not now, and the people there do not want to be part of china. That should be respected, because anything else is oppression.
My thoughts are not contradictory. I said we have the ability to take it , and to tell you the truth, I personally don't really like the land,taiwanese, in my eyes their boys are sissy and girls are shallow，if you watch their tv programmes..... they don't like us too, very well, if I were the supreme leader I would consider to let them get independent，cut-off relationship, and drive all the tw merchans outof mainland, in like 10 or 20 years they may regret on their choice, begging to rejoin the family.. sorry, our unfilial boy you should take the reponsibilies on your own. My thoughts are dangerous and naive I know,so I can only tell you guys .
Why do you think those thoughts are dangerous and naive? They are factually already independent. Just make that official and get on with your lives. But somehow that is not possible and even dangerous?
Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
It is in fact dangerous, for the Party's rule. They have been insisting for seventy years that they will liberate all of China including Taiwan. They have raised generations of Chinese people to believe that it is the just and righteous thing to do. To admit now that it was no longer their aim, would be devastating to the legitimacy of the Communist Party's right to rule. They would not be able to explain why after seventy years they had now given up on the glorious cause of reunification.
Edit: To make it clear, such a change of direction is possible, but it would most likely involve a huge change in China's politics similar to Deng's reforms (probably following the death of Xi like how it happened after Mao died), or an external shock like losing a war (like how Argentina renounced military reunification of the Falklands after losing the war).
On July 25 2022 18:03 winteriscoming wrote: ok, you have do some reasons, but urkrainian have the whole NATO support and russians rushed into war with their old equipments, even so, americans stepped back, TW is an island, you can't even get close when PLA announce 200k㎡ is a forbidden zone. Maybe Americans woud not drop a single blood for TW.
China routinely declares water it’s sovereign territory and America routinely declares that the water is actually disputed and then disputes it by sailing a carrier group through it. You can announce as many forbidden zones as you like but nobody has to listen, it comes down to whether you’re willing to enforce it. China lacks the navy to deny a carrier group passage in disputed waters and even if it had the navy, they lack the second strike capability to try.
NATO isn’t in Ukraine because Ukraine isn’t in NATO. Some NATO powers are choosing to give Ukraine some second hand hardware, that’s all.
Well, maybe you are right, maybe I'm right, who knows. Unfortunately wars usually take place when both sides thinks they are on the superior side...... We don't want enemies, we don't even criticize on our neighbours when they are wrong(like RU,NK....) And when we are wrong, we tend to solve it in our own way. We don't want anyone to tell us what is right, especially when these "kind advices" would lead to something unpredictable.
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
On July 25 2022 18:03 winteriscoming wrote: ok, you have do some reasons, but urkrainian have the whole NATO support and russians rushed into war with their old equipments, even so, americans stepped back, TW is an island, you can't even get close when PLA announce 200k㎡ is a forbidden zone. Maybe Americans woud not drop a single blood for TW.
China routinely declares water it’s sovereign territory and America routinely declares that the water is actually disputed and then disputes it by sailing a carrier group through it. You can announce as many forbidden zones as you like but nobody has to listen, it comes down to whether you’re willing to enforce it. China lacks the navy to deny a carrier group passage in disputed waters and even if it had the navy, they lack the second strike capability to try.
NATO isn’t in Ukraine because Ukraine isn’t in NATO. Some NATO powers are choosing to give Ukraine some second hand hardware, that’s all.
Well, maybe you are right, maybe I'm right, who knows. Unfortunately wars usually take place when both sides thinks they are on the superior side...... We don't want enemies, we don't even criticize on our neighbours when they are wrong(like RU,NK....) And when we are wrong, we tend to solve it in our own way. We don't want anyone to tell us what is right, especially when these "kind advices" would lead to something unpredictable.
I am right. This happens frequently. The way sovereign waters work, assuming no existing treaty, is that you only get what everyone else recognizes that you get. Same situation as breakaway states vs civil wars, a state only exists when everyone else agrees that it exists.
China routinely asserts that the South China Sea is sovereign waters vs disputed waters and if other countries were to listen then it would become true. For that reason the US has to deliberately and flagrantly sail through the sea to dispute the claim of Chinese sovereignty. China lacks sovereignty because they are disputed waters and they are disputed waters because they are being disputed. It’s a bit of a tautology. The US says that they would never trespass in Chinese waters so the fact that they are there must mean that the water they are in must not be Chinese.
The point is that we don’t have to speculate on who is right and who is wrong here. This happens all the time. I am right. China can assert that waters are closed to US carrier fleets but a carrier fleet is going to go wherever it wants.
I am right. This happens frequently. The way sovereign waters work, assuming no existing treaty, is that you only get what everyone else recognizes that you get. Same situation as breakaway states vs civil wars, a state only exists when everyone else agrees that it exists.
China routinely asserts that the South China Sea is sovereign waters vs disputed waters and if other countries were to listen then it would become true. For that reason the US has to deliberately and flagrantly sail through the sea to dispute the claim of Chinese sovereignty. China lacks sovereignty because they are disputed waters and they are disputed waters because they are being disputed. It’s a bit of a tautology. The US says that they would never trespass in Chinese waters so the fact that they are there must mean that the water they are in must not be Chinese.
The point is that we don’t have to speculate on who is right and who is wrong here. This happens all the time. I am right. China can assert that waters are closed to US carrier fleets but a carrier fleet is going to go wherever it wants.
But as China has been at pains to point out, the United States isn't among the 180 countries that have ratified the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea--potentially undermining its clout on this issue. sorry, just quoted some examples on translation software. Not willing to persuade you, you are ALL right.
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
I am right. This happens frequently. The way sovereign waters work, assuming no existing treaty, is that you only get what everyone else recognizes that you get. Same situation as breakaway states vs civil wars, a state only exists when everyone else agrees that it exists.
China routinely asserts that the South China Sea is sovereign waters vs disputed waters and if other countries were to listen then it would become true. For that reason the US has to deliberately and flagrantly sail through the sea to dispute the claim of Chinese sovereignty. China lacks sovereignty because they are disputed waters and they are disputed waters because they are being disputed. It’s a bit of a tautology. The US says that they would never trespass in Chinese waters so the fact that they are there must mean that the water they are in must not be Chinese.
The point is that we don’t have to speculate on who is right and who is wrong here. This happens all the time. I am right. China can assert that waters are closed to US carrier fleets but a carrier fleet is going to go wherever it wants.
But as China has been at pains to point out, the United States isn't among the 180 countries that have ratified the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea--potentially undermining its clout on this issue. sorry, just quoted some examples on translation software. Not willing to persuade you, you are ALL right.
You claimed that if the PLA declared the straits forbidden then the US wouldn’t be able to intervene. This implies that they would listen to any Chinese declaration.
The US, as well as many other nations, have an existing deliberate policy of sailing through any disputed water that China declares is forbidden. They do it a few times a year.
We don’t have to guess what the US would do if they were forbidden from the straits. They’d sail right through. We know this because it’s what they already do. There’s no speculation or argument to be had here, there’s observable evidence. You can either believe the evidence or close your eyes but it’s true either way.
As for PRC military capabilities to take Taiwan - maybe not now, but at the rate of growth of PLA Navy in 5-6 years it would be possible. Breaking the US naval blockade further from their own shores - that's what would be a problem. I did some counting about a month ago, and in the last decade PRC commisioned roughly the same amount of combat ships by tonnage as the next 3 navies combined (1077k ton against US 629k ton, Russia 260k ton and UK 182k ton, though there may be some margin of error in figures). Granted that US Navy had large established fleet beforehand and still twice as large as PLA Navy, even a bit more. But since PLA Navy doctrine revolves around control of South China Sea/Yellow Sea and confrontation with Taiwan, their ships are generally less in size than US ones, who need to project their power all over the world. Hence more ships for similar tonnage. And that's why it would be hard for US to concentrate even half of the carrier groups within 3-4 days in one place (especially those stationed in Atlantic Ocean). If South Korea and Japan would enter the fray though, it would be different matter, since both posses very capable navies (especially Japan).
But even then trying to prevent Chinese forces movement through Taiwan strait would be extremely difficult due to Chinese having huge home advantage in terms of long-range air defence and land-based air force.
But then to break the US-imposed naval blokade somewhere in line of Southern Vietnam-Phillipines-Okinawa-Kyushu would be much harder for PLA Navy, and China is very depndant on it's trade. That's possibly one of the reasons why China is so invested into "Belt and Road" through Central Asia, investing ton of money there and actively seeking to expand BRICS and SCO, to have alternate routes for imports and exports and secure favourable resource concesisons.
I am right. This happens frequently. The way sovereign waters work, assuming no existing treaty, is that you only get what everyone else recognizes that you get. Same situation as breakaway states vs civil wars, a state only exists when everyone else agrees that it exists.
China routinely asserts that the South China Sea is sovereign waters vs disputed waters and if other countries were to listen then it would become true. For that reason the US has to deliberately and flagrantly sail through the sea to dispute the claim of Chinese sovereignty. China lacks sovereignty because they are disputed waters and they are disputed waters because they are being disputed. It’s a bit of a tautology. The US says that they would never trespass in Chinese waters so the fact that they are there must mean that the water they are in must not be Chinese.
The point is that we don’t have to speculate on who is right and who is wrong here. This happens all the time. I am right. China can assert that waters are closed to US carrier fleets but a carrier fleet is going to go wherever it wants.
But as China has been at pains to point out, the United States isn't among the 180 countries that have ratified the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea--potentially undermining its clout on this issue. sorry, just quoted some examples on translation software. Not willing to persuade you, you are ALL right.
You claimed that if the PLA declared the straits forbidden then the US wouldn’t be able to intervene. This implies that they would listen to any Chinese declaration.
The US, as well as many other nations, have an existing deliberate policy of sailing through any disputed water that China declares is forbidden. They do it a few times a year.
We don’t have to guess what the US would do if they were forbidden from the straits. They’d sail right through. We know this because it’s what they already do. There’s no speculation or argument to be had here, there’s observable evidence. You can either believe the evidence or close your eyes but it’s true either way.
yeah I know americans dare to do anything they want, especially when they are told not to. But if it clearly means a direct war, will you do it with no hesitation? Maybe you will, but I guess your goverment will consider more.
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
If you were to openly voice that sentiment that you think Taiwan is a different country from the PRC, and the best solution would be to just sign a treaty where Taiwan renounces any claims on PRC territory and the PRC renounces any claims on Taiwan territory, in China and on the chinese internet, how well do you think that would go for you? Would this have negative impacts on your life, safety and future career?
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
If you were to openly voice that sentiment that you think Taiwan is a different country from the PRC, and the best solution would be to just sign a treaty where Taiwan renounces any claims on PRC territory and the PRC renounces any claims on Taiwan territory, in China and on the chinese internet, how well do you think that would go for you? Would this have negative impacts on your life, safety and future career?
if you want to murder me you can speak it out directly lol
I am right. This happens frequently. The way sovereign waters work, assuming no existing treaty, is that you only get what everyone else recognizes that you get. Same situation as breakaway states vs civil wars, a state only exists when everyone else agrees that it exists.
China routinely asserts that the South China Sea is sovereign waters vs disputed waters and if other countries were to listen then it would become true. For that reason the US has to deliberately and flagrantly sail through the sea to dispute the claim of Chinese sovereignty. China lacks sovereignty because they are disputed waters and they are disputed waters because they are being disputed. It’s a bit of a tautology. The US says that they would never trespass in Chinese waters so the fact that they are there must mean that the water they are in must not be Chinese.
The point is that we don’t have to speculate on who is right and who is wrong here. This happens all the time. I am right. China can assert that waters are closed to US carrier fleets but a carrier fleet is going to go wherever it wants.
But as China has been at pains to point out, the United States isn't among the 180 countries that have ratified the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea--potentially undermining its clout on this issue. sorry, just quoted some examples on translation software. Not willing to persuade you, you are ALL right.
You claimed that if the PLA declared the straits forbidden then the US wouldn’t be able to intervene. This implies that they would listen to any Chinese declaration.
The US, as well as many other nations, have an existing deliberate policy of sailing through any disputed water that China declares is forbidden. They do it a few times a year.
We don’t have to guess what the US would do if they were forbidden from the straits. They’d sail right through. We know this because it’s what they already do. There’s no speculation or argument to be had here, there’s observable evidence. You can either believe the evidence or close your eyes but it’s true either way.
yeah I know americans dare to do anything they want, especially when they are told not to. But if it clearly means a direct war, will you do it with no hesitation? Maybe you will, but I guess your goverment will consider more.
This is called brinksmanship. Obviously it is insane for the US to risk a potential war to sail through a strait. But obviously it is also insane for PRC to risk a potential war to stop someone sailing through a strait. So the game is to try to act insane to force the other party to make a concession in the name of sanity. That is why the US does this with no hesitation, they believe that PRC will give in.
However there is a counterplay, called “salami tactics”. This is where you don’t grab the whole stick of salami from the other side at once, instead you cut yourself a thin slice. Nobody could object to you taking a thin slice, especially when they still have the rest of the salami. They may protest the slice but it is not worth firing nukes over. Then you take another slice. Then another.
This is what PRC does in the South China Sea with artificial islands. It would be insane to go to war simply because PRC landed some engineers on a reef. And it would be insane to go to war because they’re putting down concrete to expand it into an island. And it would be insane to go to war because they are converting it into an airfield. And it would be insane to go to war just because they’re keeping bombers on that airfield. And so on and so on. Grabbing the whole salami at once may cross a red line but it is hard to justify how any slice by itself does.
Every great power plays this game. It is why the US is slowly escalating the arms it sends Ukraine. Each arms shipment that carries a new weapons system is another slice of salami but Russia will not go to war with the US simply because they gave slightly better shells to an existing artillery platform.
As for PRC military capabilities to take Taiwan - maybe not now, but at the rate of growth of PLA Navy in 5-6 years it would be possible. Breaking the US naval blockade further from their own shores - that's what would be a problem. I did some counting about a month ago, and in the last decade PRC commisioned roughly the same amount of combat ships by tonnage as the next 3 navies combined (1077k ton against US 629k ton, Russia 260k ton and UK 182k ton, though there may be some margin of error in figures). Granted that US Navy had large established fleet beforehand and still twice as large as PLA Navy, even a bit more. But since PLA Navy doctrine revolves around control of South China Sea/Yellow Sea and confrontation with Taiwan, their ships are generally less in size than US ones, who need to project their power all over the world. Hence more ships for similar tonnage. And that's why it would be hard for US to concentrate even half of the carrier groups within 3-4 days in one place (especially those stationed in Atlantic Ocean). If South Korea and Japan would enter the fray though, it would be different matter, since both posses very capable navies (especially Japan).
But even then trying to prevent Chinese forces movement through Taiwan strait would be extremely difficult due to Chinese having huge home advantage in terms of long-range air defence and land-based air force.
But then to break the US-imposed naval blokade somewhere in line of Southern Vietnam-Phillipines-Okinawa-Kyushu would be much harder for PLA Navy, and China is very depndant on it's trade. That's possibly one of the reasons why China is so invested into "Belt and Road" through Central Asia, investing ton of money there and actively seeking to expand BRICS and SCO, to have alternate routes for imports and exports and secure favourable resource concesisons.
The us blockade doesn't need to be a ring like that. The us sits a few destroyers in the Indian Ocean and tells any oil tankers from the middle east to go the other direction. The Chinese Industrial experiment ends in weeks and the nation loses half it's population to starvation in a year. The rest of the world sees no issue because a lot of demand for oil goes away and the middle east would fall over themselves to keep their nations going. The Chinese navy has no ability to operate outside of the south china sea and any ballistic missile capable of taking out a carrier looks like a nuke heading for India. Meanwhile the other half of the us navy sits in pearl harbor and cuts off food shipments from the western hemisphere.
The usa doesn't need to shed a drop of blood or fire a single bullet to win a war against China. The USA doesn't control the worlds seas the usa controls the worlds oceans.
I am right. This happens frequently. The way sovereign waters work, assuming no existing treaty, is that you only get what everyone else recognizes that you get. Same situation as breakaway states vs civil wars, a state only exists when everyone else agrees that it exists.
China routinely asserts that the South China Sea is sovereign waters vs disputed waters and if other countries were to listen then it would become true. For that reason the US has to deliberately and flagrantly sail through the sea to dispute the claim of Chinese sovereignty. China lacks sovereignty because they are disputed waters and they are disputed waters because they are being disputed. It’s a bit of a tautology. The US says that they would never trespass in Chinese waters so the fact that they are there must mean that the water they are in must not be Chinese.
The point is that we don’t have to speculate on who is right and who is wrong here. This happens all the time. I am right. China can assert that waters are closed to US carrier fleets but a carrier fleet is going to go wherever it wants.
But as China has been at pains to point out, the United States isn't among the 180 countries that have ratified the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea--potentially undermining its clout on this issue. sorry, just quoted some examples on translation software. Not willing to persuade you, you are ALL right.
You claimed that if the PLA declared the straits forbidden then the US wouldn’t be able to intervene. This implies that they would listen to any Chinese declaration.
The US, as well as many other nations, have an existing deliberate policy of sailing through any disputed water that China declares is forbidden. They do it a few times a year.
We don’t have to guess what the US would do if they were forbidden from the straits. They’d sail right through. We know this because it’s what they already do. There’s no speculation or argument to be had here, there’s observable evidence. You can either believe the evidence or close your eyes but it’s true either way.
yeah I know americans dare to do anything they want, especially when they are told not to. But if it clearly means a direct war, will you do it with no hesitation? Maybe you will, but I guess your goverment will consider more.
This is called brinksmanship. Obviously it is insane for the US to risk a potential war to sail through a strait. But obviously it is also insane for PRC to risk a potential war to stop someone sailing through a strait. So the game is to try to act insane to force the other party to make a concession in the name of sanity. That is why the US does this with no hesitation, they believe that PRC will give in.
However there is a counterplay, called “salami tactics”. This is where you don’t grab the whole stick of salami from the other side at once, instead you cut yourself a thin slice. Nobody could object to you taking a thin slice, especially when they still have the rest of the salami. They may protest the slice but it is not worth firing nukes over. Then you take another slice. Then another.
This is what PRC does in the South China Sea with artificial islands. It would be insane to go to war simply because PRC landed some engineers on a reef. And it would be insane to go to war because they’re putting down concrete to expand it into an island. And it would be insane to go to war because they are converting it into an airfield. And it would be insane to go to war just because they’re keeping bombers on that airfield. And so on and so on. Grabbing the whole salami at once may cross a red line but it is hard to justify how any slice by itself does.
Every great power plays this game. It is why the US is slowly escalating the arms it sends Ukraine. Each arms shipment that carries a new weapons system is another slice of salami but Russia will not go to war with the US simply because they gave slightly better shells to an existing artillery platform.
Thanks for the teaching.I agree both sides knows clearly it is not necessary to bleed for an island, not at the time.
The us blockade doesn't need to be a ring like that. The us sits a few destroyers in the Indian Ocean and tells any oil tankers from the middle east to go the other direction. The Chinese Industrial experiment ends in weeks and the nation loses half it's population to starvation in a year. The rest of the world sees no issue because a lot of demand for oil goes away and the middle east would fall over themselves to keep their nations going. The Chinese navy has no ability to operate outside of the south china sea and any ballistic missile capable of taking out a carrier looks like a nuke heading for India. Meanwhile the other half of the us navy sits in pearl harbor and cuts off food shipments from the western hemisphere.
The usa doesn't need to shed a drop of blood or fire a single bullet to win a war against China. The USA doesn't control the worlds seas the usa controls the worlds oceans.
I don't think your plan will work well, the 1st step(tell any oil tankers to turn direction) will cause a chaos in world market. and dollars could fall. do you know your military dominance were actually based on the dollar dominance?
"That lady got glassed! And no cunt leaves here til I find out what cunt did it!"- lmao , I just finnished watching a movie called <T2 Trainsportting>, all you guys look like fking angels now.
If the US goes full mask off fascism with Republicans subverting US democracy the world may have a different perspective on the desirability/acceptability of a future in a unipolar world under an openly fascist US using military force to impose it's will around the world (particularly to starve hundreds of millions of people).
With as many of the US's crimes against humanity as the US's western allies already turn a blind eye to, I must admit, I'm skeptical they wouldn't just go along for the ride.
With that in mind China probably shouldn't assume that a fascist US would lose European allies, but European allies (including the populace at large) should probably take some time to consider how bad a fascist US could get before they would no longer support being the US's ally in keeping China from moving us toward a multi-polar world.
On July 26 2022 03:35 maybenexttime wrote: Are you equally worried about China turning fascist?
One could argue this ship has already sailed...
Nah, they have a slightly different flavour of autocracy. Still equally scary, but not a new thing. Meanwhile, the US turning totally fascist would be a new thing, and pretty scary due to how much stuff that changes.
On July 26 2022 03:35 maybenexttime wrote: Are you equally worried about China turning fascist?
One could argue this ship has already sailed...
I know. I just find it funny that GH is so worried about the US but has no issues simping for China despite that fact that it's so much further along that road. All because it uses his favourite aesthetics. ;-)
On July 26 2022 03:35 maybenexttime wrote: Are you equally worried about China turning fascist?
One could argue this ship has already sailed...
Nah, they have a slightly different flavour of autocracy. Still equally scary, but not a new thing. Meanwhile, the US turning totally fascist would be a new thing, and pretty scary due to how much stuff that changes.
I have to disagree. Modern China is high on Han supremacism and revanchist jingoism, returning the past glory and revenging past humiliations from the West. If you look at Umberto Eco's checklist, China checks most of the boxes. It's also building a personality cult around Xi.
what you are talking about is imperial japan in their 1930s, who caused at leat 25million death of my people. we focused on our economy and making friends all over the world, we are NOT "high on Han supremacism and revanchist jingoism, returning the past glory and revenging past humiliations from the West". I, a common Chinese, don't have a slight thought on revenging anything. And in Chinese bookstores it is not even easy to find a book written by Xi or about him. Our leader is more like an invisible man.
I have something to share with the polish guys here. I played about several hundreds broodwar games on POL server in around 2005, made some friends there and even learned some polish I still remember like "kurwa mac (fuck it ?) " "dla slabichy walazic (noobs plz in?)" Talking about Poland, the only things I know is Copernicus/Madame Curie（or Mary Skrodovska？if I remembered correctly the name in my English school book). You have great scientists with open eyes on the unknown, howcome you still view on us in a very old way? It might be hard to swallow that on chinese forums they say Poland is the most anti-China european country, which I didn't really believe, I don't know much about Poland and I guess the Polish won't know much about us too, howcome that they would dislike us?
I don't think Poland is European country with strongest anti-Chinese sentiment. Why would it be? We have little to do with each other, almost no common history. We however, given our past as USSR satelite country and our previous communist governemnt see right-trough state propaganda. Hence we are very sceptical of Your ruling party and what it says.
If I have to guess which EU country has strongest anti-Chinese agenda I would say Russia. Afterall some 50 years ago your soldiers were shoting at each other and USSR leadership seriously considered invasion/nuking of China. Just because they are being nice right now doesnt mean they dont want Your land. Its Russia. Russia doesnt have pernament allies, only subjects and enemies.
On July 26 2022 11:59 winteriscoming wrote: It might be hard to swallow that on chinese forums they say Poland is the most anti-China european country, which I didn't really believe, I don't know much about Poland and I guess the Polish won't know much about us too, howcome that they would dislike us?
Red flags are a big red flag in Poland. Like Silvanel mentioned, considering our history with the USSR we are very skeptical when it comes to anything that even remotely says "communism". We spend decades trying to get some semblance of modern democracy here and getting rid of old communist leftovers.
But even in the past Poland didn't really fully embrace communism, even Stalin said that trying to introduce communism in Poland is like trying to saddle a cow. Historically we were one of the most tolerant countries, having large populations of Jews, Tatars, Gypsies, there were no witch hunts here etc. But while we are tolerant of people we're not very tolerant of authoritarian governments (one could say we're intolerant of any government really and rather unruly).
On July 26 2022 17:57 Silvanel wrote: I don't think Poland is European country with strongest anti-Chinese sentiment. Why would it be? We have little to do with each other, almost no common history. We however, given our past as USSR satelite country and our previous communist governemnt see right-trough state propaganda. Hence we are very sceptical of Your ruling party and what it says.
If I have to guess which EU country has strongest anti-Chinese agenda I would say Russia. Afterall some 50 years ago your soldiers were shoting at each other and USSR leadership seriously considered invasion/nuking of China. Just because they are being nice right now doesnt mean they dont want Your land. Its Russia. Russia doesnt have pernament allies, only subjects and enemies.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/chinas-economic-growth-mostly-welcomed-in-emerging-markets-but-neighbors-wary-of-its-influence/pg_2019-12-05_balance-of-power_2-01/ Yeah, we are so hateful towards them. Also wasn't the same USSR helping to restore China after civil war 15 years prior to events you've described? Political disagreements between two countries leadership and relations between its peoples are different thing. Even though everyone understand that our cultures are very different, many people in Russia, especially those who were born in USSR look up to China as the way USSR should have follow in late 80s. They are also respected for how they pulled up their economy to the current level.
Though this survey shows Poland to be quite neutral as well. It's Western Europe/North America/Japan and ROK who have mostly unfavorable opinions.
On July 26 2022 17:57 Silvanel wrote: I don't think Poland is European country with strongest anti-Chinese sentiment. Why would it be? We have little to do with each other, almost no common history. We however, given our past as USSR satelite country and our previous communist governemnt see right-trough state propaganda. Hence we are very sceptical of Your ruling party and what it says.
If I have to guess which EU country has strongest anti-Chinese agenda I would say Russia. Afterall some 50 years ago your soldiers were shoting at each other and USSR leadership seriously considered invasion/nuking of China. Just because they are being nice right now doesnt mean they dont want Your land. Its Russia. Russia doesnt have pernament allies, only subjects and enemies.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/chinas-economic-growth-mostly-welcomed-in-emerging-markets-but-neighbors-wary-of-its-influence/pg_2019-12-05_balance-of-power_2-01/ Yeah, we are so hateful towards them. Also wasn't the same USSR helping to restore China after civil war 15 years prior to events you've described? Political disagreements between two countries leadership and relations between its peoples are different thing. Even though everyone understand that our cultures are very different, many people in Russia, especially those who were born in USSR look up to China as the way USSR should have follow in late 80s. They are also respected for how they pulled up their economy to the current level.
Though this survey shows Poland to be quite neutral as well. It's Western Europe/North America/Japan and ROK who have mostly unfavorable opinions.
Ours is so high because we have so many people from Hong Kong and Mainland China. Those who have gotten out hate the CCP. Its the top single response of ethnicity after Canadian, which is a sign of recency and then hearing their personal stories influences us who are not from there as well.
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
If you were to openly voice that sentiment that you think Taiwan is a different country from the PRC, and the best solution would be to just sign a treaty where Taiwan renounces any claims on PRC territory and the PRC renounces any claims on Taiwan territory, in China and on the chinese internet, how well do you think that would go for you? Would this have negative impacts on your life, safety and future career?
if you want to murder me you can speak it out directly lol
So why are you trying to convince us that China is the best and nothing shady is going on when you believe you can be killed for voicing the wrong opinion ?
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
If you were to openly voice that sentiment that you think Taiwan is a different country from the PRC, and the best solution would be to just sign a treaty where Taiwan renounces any claims on PRC territory and the PRC renounces any claims on Taiwan territory, in China and on the chinese internet, how well do you think that would go for you? Would this have negative impacts on your life, safety and future career?
if you want to murder me you can speak it out directly lol
So why are you trying to convince us that China is the best and nothing shady is going on when you believe you can be killed for voicing the wrong opinion ?
haha it was a cold joke. It's actually not practical. Such action will be like committing a social suicide. what should you plan to do? Yelling slogans on the street with a banner?- before police come to you you will be abused by people, old people pick a random brick knock on your head? Or people pushed you to police, they will ask you if you are mentally disordered or something? If you insist on doing so.... there is a "Anti-secession Law" waiting for you. So you decide to show your thoughts on the web, you keep posting and posting, nomatter how many your post deleted, then someday will be someone call you to "have a cup of tea". But BEFORE all official things happens, you will be choking in the spit of millions. Believe me you won't like to do this, worse than being killed. I know there are always some chinese people protesting in foreign lands holding a banner of political persecution or even dressed in bloodstain shirts at trainstations, trying to swindle some money from people's sympathy. It's really fking disgusting that some people do fking anything for money, didn't even have the grace to look embarrassed for insulting the land that breeded him.
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
If you were to openly voice that sentiment that you think Taiwan is a different country from the PRC, and the best solution would be to just sign a treaty where Taiwan renounces any claims on PRC territory and the PRC renounces any claims on Taiwan territory, in China and on the chinese internet, how well do you think that would go for you? Would this have negative impacts on your life, safety and future career?
if you want to murder me you can speak it out directly lol
So why are you trying to convince us that China is the best and nothing shady is going on when you believe you can be killed for voicing the wrong opinion ?
haha it was a cold joke. It's actually not practical. Such action will be like committing a social suicide. what should you plan to do? Yelling slogans on the street with a banner?- before police come to you you will be abused by people, old people pick a random brick knock on your head? Or people pushed you to police, they will ask you if you are mentally disordered or something? If you insist on doing so.... there is a "Anti-secession Law" waiting for you. So you decide to show your thoughts on the web, you keep posting and posting, nomatter how many your post deleted, then someday will be someone call you to "have a cup of tea". But BEFORE all official things happens, you will be choking in the spit of millions. Believe me you won't like to do this, worse than being killed. I know there are always some chinese people protesting in foreign lands holding a banner of political persecution or even dressed in bloodstain shirts at trainstations, trying to swindle some money from people's sympathy. It's really fking disgusting that some people do fking anything for money, didn't even have the grace to look embarrassed for insulting the land that breeded him.
And that sounds like a reasonable reaction to someone with a reasonable political position?
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
If you were to openly voice that sentiment that you think Taiwan is a different country from the PRC, and the best solution would be to just sign a treaty where Taiwan renounces any claims on PRC territory and the PRC renounces any claims on Taiwan territory, in China and on the chinese internet, how well do you think that would go for you? Would this have negative impacts on your life, safety and future career?
if you want to murder me you can speak it out directly lol
So why are you trying to convince us that China is the best and nothing shady is going on when you believe you can be killed for voicing the wrong opinion ?
haha it was a cold joke. It's actually not practical. Such action will be like committing a social suicide. what should you plan to do? Yelling slogans on the street with a banner?- before police come to you you will be abused by people, old people pick a random brick knock on your head? Or people pushed you to police, they will ask you if you are mentally disordered or something? If you insist on doing so.... there is a "Anti-secession Law" waiting for you. So you decide to show your thoughts on the web, you keep posting and posting, nomatter how many your post deleted, then someday will be someone call you to "have a cup of tea". But BEFORE all official things happens, you will be choking in the spit of millions. Believe me you won't like to do this, worse than being killed. I know there are always some chinese people protesting in foreign lands holding a banner of political persecution or even dressed in bloodstain shirts at trainstations, trying to swindle some money from people's sympathy. It's really fking disgusting that some people do fking anything for money, didn't even have the grace to look embarrassed for insulting the land that breeded him.
"If you stray from the one and only acceptable opinion you will be an outcast because people in China are intolerant jerks. Why would you want to leave and/or protest this? How disgusting of you."
Seriously difficult not to consider this pure trolling.
Sometimes I don't understand what's the exact meaning of trolling, Have I thrown out something irrational ? No. I shared my personal oppions and and I don't understand why they are mad about it.
On July 25 2022 18:27 Simberto wrote: Also, i don't understand why you bring your personal judgement of the people from Taiwan in here, that is 0 percent relevant. Judging people by nationality is always problematic. And using sentences like "their boys are sissy" tends to reflect negatively only onto you.
yes I am not a serious man, do not judge me I think I not a very typical Chinese.
I don't know, i don't judge people based on their nationality.
oops,here's jumps out another misunderstanding. I didn't mean "do not judge me (by my nationality)", I mean "do not judge me (by my words) . Though I don't think we Chinese are right on everything, I am still very pround of my nationality.
If you were to openly voice that sentiment that you think Taiwan is a different country from the PRC, and the best solution would be to just sign a treaty where Taiwan renounces any claims on PRC territory and the PRC renounces any claims on Taiwan territory, in China and on the chinese internet, how well do you think that would go for you? Would this have negative impacts on your life, safety and future career?
if you want to murder me you can speak it out directly lol
So why are you trying to convince us that China is the best and nothing shady is going on when you believe you can be killed for voicing the wrong opinion ?
haha it was a cold joke. It's actually not practical. Such action will be like committing a social suicide. what should you plan to do? Yelling slogans on the street with a banner?- before police come to you you will be abused by people, old people pick a random brick knock on your head? Or people pushed you to police, they will ask you if you are mentally disordered or something? If you insist on doing so.... there is a "Anti-secession Law" waiting for you. So you decide to show your thoughts on the web, you keep posting and posting, nomatter how many your post deleted, then someday will be someone call you to "have a cup of tea". But BEFORE all official things happens, you will be choking in the spit of millions. Believe me you won't like to do this, worse than being killed. I know there are always some chinese people protesting in foreign lands holding a banner of political persecution or even dressed in bloodstain shirts at trainstations, trying to swindle some money from people's sympathy. It's really fking disgusting that some people do fking anything for money, didn't even have the grace to look embarrassed for insulting the land that breeded him.
You say it's a joke, then you say you'll be killed by the population before the state kills you. Okay. You've more or less affirmed everything negative we've said about china in this single post, thanks.
I wonder where this will go. If we'll get a global crash on top of that China is in for some rough times ahead of them. There's also news of China having trouble managing its international debt.
Yes, not surprising that continuing with the insane covid zero strategy almost 3 years on and even now locking down massive cities for months on end is having huge economic impact.Seems like a very dangerous time, China could do something unpredictable.
On July 31 2022 00:16 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Yes, not surprising that continuing with the insane covid zero strategy almost 3 years on and even now locking down massive cities for months on end is having huge economic impact. Seems like a very dangerous time, China could do something unpredictable.
Is Pelosi still going to visit Taiwan?
From the latest news, it looks like she will skip Taiwan and visit other Asian countries. At least no mentions of Taiwan from her office:
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
What countries have you been to before?
Does it really matter? I've been all over Europe and lived for 3 years in Lybia.
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
What countries have you been to before?
Does it really matter? I've been all over Europe and lived for 3 years in Lybia.
I think this is the part where you get told your opinions on China are irrelevant since you've never lived there, just like the other 0-post accounts did before them. I'd love to be wrong though
On July 31 2022 00:16 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Is Pelosi still going to visit Taiwan?
This is a very important question. China has set a "red line" and said that they're going to take measures if Pelosi does visit Taiwan. They've also been undergoing military drills and sending tanks and other equipment to provinces facing Taiwan.
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
What countries have you been to before?
Does it really matter? I've been all over Europe and lived for 3 years in Lybia.
I think this is the part where you get told your opinions on China are irrelevant since you've never lived there, just like the other 0-post accounts did before them. I'd love to be wrong though
Yeah, I would assume so. I guess my experience living behind the Iron Curtain when the wall in Berlin was still standing and literally witnessing countries go from communism to democracy live as it was unfolding doesn't count for anything.
Even without that I think everyone should be able to express their opinions even on stuff they haven't experienced themselves. I have thoughts on many countries I've never been to, not all of them are good thoughts either.
On July 31 2022 00:16 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Is Pelosi still going to visit Taiwan?
This is a very important question. China has set a "red line" and said that they're going to take measures if Pelosi does visit Taiwan. They've also been undergoing military drills and sending tanks and other equipment to provinces facing Taiwan.
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
What countries have you been to before?
Does it really matter? I've been all over Europe and lived for 3 years in Lybia.
I think this is the part where you get told your opinions on China are irrelevant since you've never lived there, just like the other 0-post accounts did before them. I'd love to be wrong though
Yeah, I would assume so. I guess my experience living behind the Iron Curtain when the wall in Berlin was still standing and literally witnessing countries go from communism to democracy live as it was unfolding doesn't count for anything.
Even without that I think everyone should be able to express their opinions even on stuff they haven't experienced themselves. I have thoughts on many countries I've never been to, not all of them are good thoughts either.
Weird. Basically no one here has lived in Nazi Germany (I think the amount of people over the age of 78 in this forum is miniscule), and yet people still have an opinion on it. It is almost as if one can get an opinion of other places and times even without being there.
I have been to China (Chengdu, Leshan, Dujiangyan, Beijing): - I have felt safe walking around alone in city center -There are police/party men in uniform/military everywhere (especially on plazas with Mao statues ) -A lot of two language signs (english/mandarin) but hardly anyone speaks english (even when it says so on the sign! lol ) -I guess it can be a nice place to live if You dont care about politics and are ok with having no influence on main decisions of Your country/city etc.
On August 01 2022 18:15 Silvanel wrote: I have been to China (Chengdu, Leshan, Dujiangyan, Beijing): - I have felt safe walking around alone in city center -There are police/party men in uniform/military everywhere (especially on plazas with Mao statues ) -A lot of two language signs (english/mandarin) but hardly anyone speaks english (even when it says so on the sign! lol ) -I guess it can be a nice place to live if You dont care about politics and are ok with having no influence on main decisions of Your country/city etc.
About the crime rate: Pickpockets have all but disappeared in the big cities. There's cameras at every corner, so petty thieves get caught really quickly. Criminals nowadays make money by running scams instead, so at least the streets are safe now.
I have heard however that in smaller towns and villages, thieves exist to steal only from outsiders. They don't steal from villagers, probably because they'd get beaten up bad for it.
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
What countries have you been to before?
Does it really matter? I've been all over Europe and lived for 3 years in Lybia.
Haha, it's just a chat between people from all walks of life, like friends. Getting to know one another better to understand the views of people across the world. It's not about the matter, it's just one of the ways I interact with my peers/colleagues at school/work. As you responded to me, naturally I would like to know more from you.
Living in Lybia is interesting. Were you staying there when the civil war was on-going?
On August 01 2022 18:15 Silvanel wrote: I have been to China (Chengdu, Leshan, Dujiangyan, Beijing): - I have felt safe walking around alone in city center -There are police/party men in uniform/military everywhere (especially on plazas with Mao statues ) -A lot of two language signs (english/mandarin) but hardly anyone speaks english (even when it says so on the sign! lol ) -I guess it can be a nice place to live if You dont care about politics and are ok with having no influence on main decisions of Your country/city etc.
Awesome, glad to know that you have been to mainland China (Chengdu, Leshan, Dujiangyan, Beijing) before.
May I know what year/s (eg. 1998, 2017 etc) that you went over to the different areas?
On July 31 2022 22:14 WestTaiwan wrote: Interesting. For the non-Chinese people discussing in this thread, has anyone been to mainland China before? I'm curious about your experience.
China isn't really a place where I'd like to go. I'd love to do some sightseeing but having your facial recognition in their database and using weechat or some other app for everything is a big no for me. If my own country introduced such measures I'd be forced to move out to a different country I guess.
What countries have you been to before?
Does it really matter? I've been all over Europe and lived for 3 years in Lybia.
Haha, it's just a chat between people from all walks of life, like friends. Getting to know one another better to understand the views of people across the world. It's not about the matter, it's just one of the ways I interact with my peers/colleagues at school/work. As you responded to me, naturally I would like to know more from you.
Living in Lybia is interesting. Were you staying there when the civil war was on-going?
No, it was back in the 80's. One of the few "friendly" countries towards USSR that people from Poland were able to travel to for work.
On July 31 2022 00:16 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Yes, not surprising that continuing with the insane covid zero strategy almost 3 years on and even now locking down massive cities for months on end is having huge economic impact.Seems like a very dangerous time, China could do something unpredictable.
Is Pelosi still going to visit Taiwan?
The latest news according to cnn is that she will visit taiwan tomorrow and the day after. Curious about China,s reaction to this when it actually does happen.
I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
In the light of recent events, maybe we should stop thinking about how to not hurt some dictator's feelings. What will China do ? Shoot down the plane and start a war with the entire world ? Launch an invasion with a collapsing economy and lack of means to complete it successfully ?
It is the usual barking of a dictator that is trying to not look weak in the eyes of his enslaved population.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
It is similarly provocative for a woman to wear a bikini, even knowing some Saudi guy is at the beach and he thinks its sinful. But no one should give a shit what the Saudi guy thinks, because his views are insane and not worth accommodating. Same thing with China in this instance.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
It is similarly provocative for a woman to wear a bikini, even knowing some Saudi guy is at the beach and he thinks its sinful. But no one should give a shit what the Saudi guy thinks, because his views are insane and not worth accommodating. Same thing with China in this instance.
I disagree with comparing someone wearing a bikini to clear provocations against long established international diplomatic agreements for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which being size and scope.
That said, if the beach is a public one in Saudi Arabia, it's prudent they give a shit.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
It is similarly provocative for a woman to wear a bikini, even knowing some Saudi guy is at the beach and he thinks its sinful. But no one should give a shit what the Saudi guy thinks, because his views are insane and not worth accommodating. Same thing with China in this instance.
I disagree with comparing someone wearing a bikini to clear provocations against long established international diplomatic agreements for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which being size and scope.
That said, if the beach is a public one in Saudi Arabia, it's prudent they give a shit.
I think it is fair to ask ourselves: Why is China mad? What does China lose by Taiwan having recognized sovereignty away from China? When you answer that question (China wants to take over Taiwan), it feels easy to brush off China being mad. They are mad that they can't be dicks and they want to be dicks.
Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
That's one way to frame it. But you could make very similar arguments with abolishing slavery. The US was totally cool with slavery for a long time, and then suddenly, one group decided we needed to not have slavery. Was this a drastic escalation of a culture war? A huge shift in policy? You could say that, but it was also just doing the right thing. It is possible to do the wrong thing and then do a more right thing later. You can't pretend any change in policy that ends up ruffling feathers is directly bad. Supporting Taiwan is the very obviously ethical answer in the debate. This a change, an ethical one. Saying its for some sort of nefarious reason is just weird deflection.
Are you saying support for Taiwan is unethical? What are your views on it? Should Taiwan have permanent separation from China?
Something being ethical and something being a good idea practically are two different things. It's like seeing a robber robbing another person in an alley with a gun. Do you run in and try to stop him? Sure it's ethical to try to stop the crime, but there's a possibility you won't live to tell the tale.
I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
Thats one hell of a slippery slope.
It does need to be discussed though - because defending Taiwan is going to put American soldiers in the line of fire. It was, for decades, just a hypothetical, since it was believed China did not have both the will and power to invade. If, as many observers believe, that China will soon have the capability to do it, then it stops being a hypothetical and becomes a real scenario that needs to be prepared for, not just by the military, but by the general population.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
There is a zero % chance of China engaging the US militarily. China is not close to being able to do anything. They would be tossing the last 50 years of progress down the drain and have no realistic shot of ever being a world power ever again.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
There is a zero % chance of China engaging the US militarily. China is not close to being able to do anything. They would be tossing the last 50 years of progress down the drain and have no realistic shot of ever being a world power ever again.
So did we think about Russia and yet here we are. If the Chinese judge that the US will not engage in full scale war in the case of an invasion of Taiwan, they may well judge, correctly or not, that the risk is worth it. They know just as well as everyone else that they cannot win a war against the US. But they might think they can threaten the US with sufficient losses that they choose not to pay the price for intervening.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
Thats one hell of a slippery slope.
It does need to be discussed though - because defending Taiwan is going to put American soldiers in the line of fire. It was, for decades, just a hypothetical, since it was believed China did not have both the will and power to invade. If, as many observers believe, that China will soon have the capability to do it, then it stops being a hypothetical and becomes a real scenario that needs to be prepared for, not just by the military, but by the general population.
I don't think it's a given, that China can just overwhelm Taiwan with the US not engaging immediately. The country is a fortress by nature and pretty well prepared. Does Chinese equipment and military doctrine work? Maybe it will leave a lot to be desired, like the originals from Russia. It's not by accident that we have the situation we have.
I hope i will not see the consequences of an Invasion.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
There is a zero % chance of China engaging the US militarily. China is not close to being able to do anything. They would be tossing the last 50 years of progress down the drain and have no realistic shot of ever being a world power ever again.
So did we think about Russia and yet here we are. If the Chinese judge that the US will not engage in full scale war in the case of an invasion of Taiwan, they may well judge, correctly or not, that the risk is worth it. They know just as well as everyone else that they cannot win a war against the US. But they might think they can threaten the US with sufficient losses that they choose not to pay the price for intervening.
And what has happened in UA? Russia did exactly that:
They would be tossing the last 50 years of progress down the drain and have no realistic shot of ever being a world power ever again.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
They have been for years. For Taiwan and every other US commitment postwar. The main point of US commitments is that US hegemony is unchallenged but yes, obviously we’re all willing to die for it. Just as the entire US population was theoretically ready to die in a nuclear exchange over west Germany.
The Taiwan visit is massively overhyped. Pelosi isn’t in the US government and the US government has publicly disapproved of it. As a matter of forms it’s nothing to do with them.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
There is a zero % chance of China engaging the US militarily. China is not close to being able to do anything. They would be tossing the last 50 years of progress down the drain and have no realistic shot of ever being a world power ever again.
So did we think about Russia and yet here we are. If the Chinese judge that the US will not engage in full scale war in the case of an invasion of Taiwan, they may well judge, correctly or not, that the risk is worth it. They know just as well as everyone else that they cannot win a war against the US. But they might think they can threaten the US with sufficient losses that they choose not to pay the price for intervening.
The correct comparison is not with Russia and Ukraine as there was no US military defence commitment there. The correct comparison was with the Soviet Union and West Germany. Let me know when that happens.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
There is a zero % chance of China engaging the US militarily. China is not close to being able to do anything. They would be tossing the last 50 years of progress down the drain and have no realistic shot of ever being a world power ever again.
You forgot Korea war too fast. The army strength difference is still there but it's not that much compared to back then.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
Because piling up rocks in the south sea to claim it as chinas isnt hubris ? Making claims on japanese islands isnt nakedly provocative ? You need to take a step back and rethink your position if you take this move by pelosi as some kind of attack on chinas sovereignty. Its literally just reaffirming the US-Taiwan relationship to squash any attempt by china following the ukr invasion. If you view it as some kind of provocation, you're just spewing ccp propaganda and will be treated as such. Getting big flashbacks of "nato caused this" rn buddy
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
Because piling up rocks in the south sea to claim it as chinas isnt hubris ? Making claims on japanese islands isnt nakedly provocative ? You need to take a step back and rethink your position if you take this move by pelosi as some kind of attack on chinas sovereignty. Its literally just reaffirming the US-Taiwan relationship to squash any attempt by china following the ukr invasion. If you view it as some kind of provocation, you're just spewing ccp propaganda and will be treated as such. Getting big flashbacks of "nato caused this" rn buddy
I think Pelosi's trip is a nakedly provocative move with nothing substantive to gain from it. Basically a matter of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
Interesting that people think it's both disapproved by the US government and a reaffirmation of US government foreign policy though.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
Because piling up rocks in the south sea to claim it as chinas isnt hubris ? Making claims on japanese islands isnt nakedly provocative ? You need to take a step back and rethink your position if you take this move by pelosi as some kind of attack on chinas sovereignty. Its literally just reaffirming the US-Taiwan relationship to squash any attempt by china following the ukr invasion. If you view it as some kind of provocation, you're just spewing ccp propaganda and will be treated as such. Getting big flashbacks of "nato caused this" rn buddy
I think Pelosi's trip is a nakedly provocative move with nothing substantive to gain from it. Basically a matter of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
Interesting that people think it's both disapproved by the US government and a reaffirmation of US government foreign policy though.
Did you not read my post ? Strategic ambiguity. Once again, there's much to gain when you take in factor chinas recent actions. Unless you're a big chamberlain fan, but recent events reaffirmed how stupid of a position it is. Yay lets give south asia to china, eastern europe to russia, sk to nk and call it a day. Nothing bad could ever follow.
Pelosi's visit to Taiwan gave China an excuse for military action against Taiwan。 Starting from the evening of August 2, the eastern theater of the Chinese people's Liberation Army will carry out a series of joint military operations around Taiwan Island, conduct joint sea and air training in the airspace of the north, southwest and East South China Sea of Taiwan Island, conduct long-range fire live fire in the Taiwan Strait, and organize normal missile fire test in the waters east of Taiwan Island. The Chinese media has driven the mood of the Chinese people. After Pelosi leaves Taiwan tomorrow, substantive military action may be taken. China chose to attack Taiwan without attacking American targets. Will the US military declare war with China? I don't know what will really happen, and I don't know what degree of military action will happen. What should happen in these days.
Then a lot of chinese sailors will visit the bottom of the sea courtesy of the us carrier group. It's also the best way to completly miss the 100year mark. What happens to a country in full economic turmoil starting a war it cannot win ? Guess we'll see after tonight, but i predict that youre full of shit .
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
Because piling up rocks in the south sea to claim it as chinas isnt hubris ? Making claims on japanese islands isnt nakedly provocative ? You need to take a step back and rethink your position if you take this move by pelosi as some kind of attack on chinas sovereignty. Its literally just reaffirming the US-Taiwan relationship to squash any attempt by china following the ukr invasion. If you view it as some kind of provocation, you're just spewing ccp propaganda and will be treated as such. Getting big flashbacks of "nato caused this" rn buddy
I think Pelosi's trip is a nakedly provocative move with nothing substantive to gain from it. Basically a matter of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
Interesting that people think it's both disapproved by the US government and a reaffirmation of US government foreign policy though.
Did you not read my post ? Strategic ambiguity.
I prefer the description of 'hypocritical doublespeak'.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
Because piling up rocks in the south sea to claim it as chinas isnt hubris ? Making claims on japanese islands isnt nakedly provocative ? You need to take a step back and rethink your position if you take this move by pelosi as some kind of attack on chinas sovereignty. Its literally just reaffirming the US-Taiwan relationship to squash any attempt by china following the ukr invasion. If you view it as some kind of provocation, you're just spewing ccp propaganda and will be treated as such. Getting big flashbacks of "nato caused this" rn buddy
I think Pelosi's trip is a nakedly provocative move with nothing substantive to gain from it. Basically a matter of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
Interesting that people think it's both disapproved by the US government and a reaffirmation of US government foreign policy though.
Did you not read my post ? Strategic ambiguity.
I prefer the description of 'hypocritical doublespeak'.
Sure, but it works and china can't do shit about it in any way.
On August 02 2022 12:44 gobbledydook wrote: I think the answer depends heavily on whether Americans are ready to send their sons to die for Taiwan. So far this question hasn't even really been discussed on news.
There is a zero % chance of China engaging the US militarily. China is not close to being able to do anything. They would be tossing the last 50 years of progress down the drain and have no realistic shot of ever being a world power ever again.
You forgot Korea war too fast. The army strength difference is still there but it's not that much compared to back then.
Unless they’re excellent swimmers I fail to see how the strength of the Korean War PLA relates to Taiwan.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
Because piling up rocks in the south sea to claim it as chinas isnt hubris ? Making claims on japanese islands isnt nakedly provocative ? You need to take a step back and rethink your position if you take this move by pelosi as some kind of attack on chinas sovereignty. Its literally just reaffirming the US-Taiwan relationship to squash any attempt by china following the ukr invasion. If you view it as some kind of provocation, you're just spewing ccp propaganda and will be treated as such. Getting big flashbacks of "nato caused this" rn buddy
I think Pelosi's trip is a nakedly provocative move with nothing substantive to gain from it. Basically a matter of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
Interesting that people think it's both disapproved by the US government and a reaffirmation of US government foreign policy though.
Did you not read my post ? Strategic ambiguity.
I prefer the description of 'hypocritical doublespeak'.
Sure, but it works and china can't do shit about it in any way.
My point was that this brash hubris is dangerously irresponsible. The US is having a hard enough time protecting its own so called democracy.
As expected, Pelosi has arrived in Taiwan, and as expected the Chinese have nothing better to do than protest loudly and conduct some military exercises. This is all theatre at this point in time - when the time for the actual invasion arrives, it will be obvious to all. Just like how it was obvious Russia was about to invade Ukraine.
On August 02 2022 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I can understand different perspectives on the practicality and righteousness of Pelosi going to Taiwan, but it is also a pretty naked provocation diplomatically. I expect a response, the severity of which is uncertain.
Thats the whole point. Your thinking is backwards. China's like 'this is ours, noone can come here'. Pelosi (and the US) is just reminding china that they can say w.e the fuck they want, it has no basis in reality and will be ignored. + Show Spoiler +
Sometimes one can wonder if your lenses are broken.
On August 02 2022 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Just to be clear, long established official US policy is that Taiwan is part of one China. Trump basically began the departure from that policy and Biden is continuing to escalate it.
People can rationalize or justify it all however they like, but the fact is that the US is on an escalatory path against China in contradiction to long established official US policy and the consequences (of the ongoing bipartisan escalatory path against China) could be catastrophic. Not just for China, the US, and/or Taiwan but the entire world.
Even if people think it's wholly righteous (nothing the US does ever is), disregarding the potential ramifications so haphazardly is irresponsibly dangerous.
Also the us doesnt recognize (and never did) china's claims over taiwan. They dont recognize taiwans independance either. Its the strategic ambiguity that keeps the statu quo.
Washington's "one China" policy, however, does not mean that the United States recognizes, nor agrees with Beijing's claims to sovereignty over Taiwan. On July 14, 1982, the Republican Reagan Administration gave specific assurances to Taiwan that the United States did not accept China's claim to sovereignty over the island (Six Assurances), and the U.S. Department of State informed the Senate that "[t]he United States takes no position on the question of Taiwan's sovereignty."
And since you advocate doing nothing to cool down the situation, i'd like to remind you that doing nothing is still an action. Which has consequences.
There actually were so many errors in your previous posts, its quite jarring. It started way before trump, Bush jr said in 2001 that if china attacked taiwan, the us would defend it at all costs.
President Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself." He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree."On the advice of his advisors, Bush later made clear to the press that there was no change in American policy.
It's this hubris that I'm referencing as dangerously irresponsible and nakedly provocative.
Because piling up rocks in the south sea to claim it as chinas isnt hubris ? Making claims on japanese islands isnt nakedly provocative ? You need to take a step back and rethink your position if you take this move by pelosi as some kind of attack on chinas sovereignty. Its literally just reaffirming the US-Taiwan relationship to squash any attempt by china following the ukr invasion. If you view it as some kind of provocation, you're just spewing ccp propaganda and will be treated as such. Getting big flashbacks of "nato caused this" rn buddy
I think Pelosi's trip is a nakedly provocative move with nothing substantive to gain from it. Basically a matter of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
Interesting that people think it's both disapproved by the US government and a reaffirmation of US government foreign policy though.
Did you not read my post ? Strategic ambiguity.
I prefer the description of 'hypocritical doublespeak'.
que, but it works and china can't do shit about it in any way.
My point was that this brash hubris is dangerously irresponsible. The US is having a hard enough time protecting its own so called democracy.
And your point is dumb, because its not brash nor irresponsible. It is in line with the US policy in south asia for the past 40years. It is precisely engineered so china can just moan about it on twitter while the rest of the world carry on. What would be irresponsible, would be to let china annex south asia just because you cant possibly walk and chew gum at the same time. I know you believe the democrats to be inepts. But pelosi has been doing that kind of shit since the 90s to consolidate the taiwan-us relationship. It is a well thought move.
Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day.
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day. + Show Spoiler +
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
I don't. At best you're talking about an imperialist pissing match over whose influence a vassal is under.
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day. + Show Spoiler +
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
I don't. At best you're talking about an imperialist pissing match over whose influence a vassal is under.
Only one is trying to dictate the 'vassal' policies and to invade it. You are wildly misinformed on this topic.
On August 03 2022 01:15 Erasme wrote: Then a lot of chinese sailors will visit the bottom of the sea courtesy of the us carrier group. It's also the best way to completly miss the 100year mark. What happens to a country in full economic turmoil starting a war it cannot win ? Guess we'll see after tonight, but i predict that youre full of shit .
Like Moskva, they'll be promoted to submarines. ;-)
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day.
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
The same things were said before WWI. It was claimed that Germany and Britain were too economically linked to fight a war and then they did anyway. Caused untold economic damage, but apparently nationalism was more important.
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day. + Show Spoiler +
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
I don't. At best you're talking about an imperialist pissing match over whose influence a vassal is under.
You are false equivocating the US and China as it pertains to Taiwan here. China is the only one who is actively seeking to erase Taiwan's identity and absorb them. The US is not doing that. You never answered whether you think China is doing the right or wrong thing in this situation. Should Taiwan become a part of China?
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day. + Show Spoiler +
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
I don't. At best you're talking about an imperialist pissing match over whose influence a vassal is under.
You are false equivocating the US and China as it pertains to Taiwan here. China is the only one who is actively seeking to erase Taiwan's identity and absorb them. The US is not doing that. You never answered whether you think China is doing the right or wrong thing in this situation. Should Taiwan become a part of China?
The big picture here is that this is the worst possible time to go on one of these PR campaigns that everyone knows is going to piss China off. What's been accomplished here with this? China was going to invade Taiwan tomorrow but wont now because Pelosi stopped by for a chat?
If China backs down now its enough of a slap to the face to Xi that they will double their efforts of propping up Russia and getting even with the US through Russia. Pushing China and Russia together doesn't sound productive to US interests, maybe its great for the keyboard warrior that sees the World in blacks and whites... But the multi-polar World is fast approaching, and its just coming to us faster with stunts like this. Regardless of who is 'right' or 'wrong'
Also, if China attacks... well... good job Nancy Pelosi i guess.
Brief recap of some of the problems facing China currently. I can agree with the creator that it's looking rather bleak for them - there's a lot of turmoil in different sectors and it doesn't look like it will end anytime soon.
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day. + Show Spoiler +
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
I don't. At best you're talking about an imperialist pissing match over whose influence a vassal is under.
You are false equivocating the US and China as it pertains to Taiwan here. China is the only one who is actively seeking to erase Taiwan's identity and absorb them. The US is not doing that. You never answered whether you think China is doing the right or wrong thing in this situation. Should Taiwan become a part of China?
The big picture here is that this is the worst possible time to go on one of these PR campaigns that everyone knows is going to piss China off. What's been accomplished here with this? China was going to invade Taiwan tomorrow but wont now because Pelosi stopped by for a chat?
If China backs down now its enough of a slap to the face to Xi that they will double their efforts of propping up Russia and getting even with the US through Russia. Pushing China and Russia together doesn't sound productive to US interests, maybe its great for the keyboard warrior that sees the World in blacks and whites... But the multi-polar World is fast approaching, and its just coming to us faster with stunts like this. Regardless of who is 'right' or 'wrong'
Also, if China attacks... well... good job Nancy Pelosi i guess.
Brinksmanship is an important part of a multipolar world. Just doing nothing and letting a country build up until it invades a neighbor is not good policy and Putin just showed us it does not work to just let the dictator do as he wants and hope that if he is rich enough he will keep his BS within his own borders. It is pretty certain that China knew what Putin was about too do. They are likely thinking of doing something similar. And what they did with Hong Kong should not have been met with a global shrug.
We all got to comfortable thinking that if people got rich they would keep making decisions to protect what makes them money, harmony. Clearly this failed so expect things to get uncomfortable because letting these dictators grow their empires is bad for us all long term.
Then what should be done? The way I see it, this strategy of containing China at all costs since Trump can backfire and just accelerate a ticking time bomb. The world was a safer place and economically better before the US tried to contain China by the Trump and now the Biden administration.
Sanctions clearly not working as Russia has resources, China is a near peer rival to the US. Both nuclear powers, a clear blunder by the US, pushing both of them to rely on each other. US alone can't contain either, but ganging up on them and pushing them in to a corner Is also not a wise decision.
The US should focus on Ukraine for now, as Putin should be dealt with in Ukraine with minimal loss of territory from Ukraine, that way It would also send a message to China. Fighting on two fronts is not wise.
This "one China policy" clearly isn't working out for either China or Taiwan. Maybe the US should try to broker some kind of agreement between the two, but this won't happen with the Cold War approach that the US is using to contain China.
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day. + Show Spoiler +
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
I don't. At best you're talking about an imperialist pissing match over whose influence a vassal is under.
You are false equivocating the US and China as it pertains to Taiwan here. China is the only one who is actively seeking to erase Taiwan's identity and absorb them. The US is not doing that. You never answered whether you think China is doing the right or wrong thing in this situation. Should Taiwan become a part of China?
The big picture here is that this is the worst possible time to go on one of these PR campaigns that everyone knows is going to piss China off. What's been accomplished here with this? China was going to invade Taiwan tomorrow but wont now because Pelosi stopped by for a chat?
If China backs down now its enough of a slap to the face to Xi that they will double their efforts of propping up Russia and getting even with the US through Russia. Pushing China and Russia together doesn't sound productive to US interests, maybe its great for the keyboard warrior that sees the World in blacks and whites... But the multi-polar World is fast approaching, and its just coming to us faster with stunts like this. Regardless of who is 'right' or 'wrong'
Also, if China attacks... well... good job Nancy Pelosi i guess.
Brinksmanship is an important part of a multipolar world. Just doing nothing and letting a country build up until it invades a neighbor is not good policy and Putin just showed us it does not work to just let the dictator do as he wants and hope that if he is rich enough he will keep his BS within his own borders. It is pretty certain that China knew what Putin was about too do. They are likely thinking of doing something similar. And what they did with Hong Kong should not have been met with a global shrug.
We all got to comfortable thinking that if people got rich they would keep making decisions to protect what makes them money, harmony. Clearly this failed so expect things to get uncomfortable because letting these dictators grow their empires is bad for us all long term.
Then what should be done? The way I see it, this strategy of containing China at all costs since Trump can backfire and just accelerate a ticking time bomb. The world was a safer place and economically better before the US tried to contain China by the Trump and now the Biden administration.
Sanctions clearly not working as Russia has resources, China is a near peer rival to the US. Both nuclear powers, a clear blunder by the US, pushing both of them to rely on each other. US alone can't contain either, but ganging up on them and pushing them in to a corner Is also not a wise decision.
The US should focus on Ukraine for now, as Putin should be dealt with in Ukraine with minimal loss of territory from Ukraine, that way It would also send a message to China. Fighting on two fronts is not wise.
This "one China policy" clearly isn't working out for either China or Taiwan. Maybe the US should try to broker some kind of agreement between the two, but this won't happen with the Cold War approach that the US is using to contain China.
Sanctions are working against Russia. It'll just take a bit more time before they run out of the reserves they had (probably another month). Their economy is tanking hard right now regardless.
And speaking of China/Taiwan and "one China policy" - US can't broker any deal there really, they've been portrayed as #1 enemy in Chinese propaganda for ages now so the public won't accept any such thing. CCP also most likely doesn't want that since they have to use this as an opportunity to show resolve in the face of the foreign devil trying to dictate what they should do and project the aura of strength and invincibility to sway their subjects. Not to mention agreeing to anything that isn't the complete annexation of Taiwan (regardless of who might intervene) would also go against what they've been preaching for decades now and they can't really afford to contradict themselves. Especially not in a time of crisis they're going through right now.
As to what should be done? Nothing really. China knows full well they can't afford any kind of war right now. They're in serious trouble as is and if they were also hit with sanctions similar to Russia they'd be effectively crippled. Best thing to do right now in my opinion is to just wait and see how the internal situation in China evolves (are they able to deal with all the crises currently affecting them?) and also how they'll cope with global economic crash that'll hit this year or early next year.
My assumption at the moment is that there's a high chance of China imploding under all that pressure, but we'll just have to wait and see. I'm also not entirely sure what would happen if China would indeed implode and CCP would lose control. Civil war? Years of unrests? New dictatorship put in place?
US is trying to delay the Taiwan takeover until they get their(and EU's) chip manufacturing off the ground but i think eventually, Taiwan will be China's.
I think they are doing it to prepare for the invasion but I just don't see what China has to gain from them for what they will have to pay for it. The status quo just works so much better than any post Taiwan invasion scenario.
On August 06 2022 19:22 Sermokala wrote: I think they are doing it to prepare for the invasion but I just don't see what China has to gain from them for what they will have to pay for it. The status quo just works so much better than any post Taiwan invasion scenario.
Before February of this year, i would have agreed with you.
But Putin proved very clearly that autocrats are absolutely willing to accept a much worse situation for their country for some weird imperialistic goal.
Preparing for a war in Taiwan is probably a good idea. Having chip factories not in Taiwan is also probably a good idea, considering how important chips are for basically everything.
China is much more vulnerable to the suite of sanctions that were applied to russia than russia is. The difference between a country that needs to buy things from the outside to function for basic things like food and gas vs one that doesn't is huge. Loseing complete access to chips made outside the nation for manufacturing would criple any value-added industries they have at a time when they're trying to manufacture a middle class.
I would be a lot more afraid of an invasion if they were tripping or quadrupling the rail network between Russia and china. For all the belt and road projects they're doing they have no ability to protect any of them outside of the south china sea.
On August 06 2022 20:26 Sermokala wrote: China is much more vulnerable to the suite of sanctions that were applied to russia than russia is. The difference between a country that needs to buy things from the outside to function for basic things like food and gas vs one that doesn't is huge. Loseing complete access to chips made outside the nation for manufacturing would criple any value-added industries they have at a time when they're trying to manufacture a middle class.
I would be a lot more afraid of an invasion if they were tripping or quadrupling the rail network between Russia and china. For all the belt and road projects they're doing they have no ability to protect any of them outside of the south china sea.
It would go both ways obviously. The sanctions against Russia also negatively effect the economies of the west. This would be far worse when it comes to China. There are alternatives for Russian fossil,at least to some extend. What is the alternative for all the production that comes from China? I dont see any not even in the long term. You cant bring all the production back not even in theory,there is already a shortage of labour. There might be an alternative or work around for millions of barrels of Russian oil and gas but i dont see how there is an alternative for a cheap and skilled labour force that is larger then the population of the US.
On August 06 2022 20:26 Sermokala wrote: China is much more vulnerable to the suite of sanctions that were applied to russia than russia is. The difference between a country that needs to buy things from the outside to function for basic things like food and gas vs one that doesn't is huge. Loseing complete access to chips made outside the nation for manufacturing would criple any value-added industries they have at a time when they're trying to manufacture a middle class.
I would be a lot more afraid of an invasion if they were tripping or quadrupling the rail network between Russia and china. For all the belt and road projects they're doing they have no ability to protect any of them outside of the south china sea.
It would go both ways obviously. The sanctions against Russia also negatively effect the economies of the west. This would be far worse when it comes to China. There are alternatives for Russian fossil,at least to some extend. What is the alternative for all the production that comes from China? I dont see any not even in the long term. You cant bring all the production back not even in theory,there is already a shortage of labour. There might be an alternative or work around for millions of barrels of Russian oil and gas but i dont see how there is an alternative for a cheap and skilled labour force that is larger then the population of the US.
You have to keep in mind that a lot of production has already been moved outside of China. When pandemic hit and because of energy crisis China had to completely or temporarily shut down a lot of factories so production was stalled to a point where plenty of businesses moved out to Vietnam and other countries. Another thing are their lockdowns due to 0 covid policy, where the biggest ports in the world are not operating at all which creates another supply problem. Companies see this and know that it's unreliable to have your production facilities in China so the exodus is already under way.
In other news, supposedly real estate market in China is in such a sad state right now that they've introduced barter trade and are selling real estate in exchange for produce. You can literally buy real estate for watermelons, garlic and peaches.
The amount of production moving out of China is greatly exaggerated. You can't replace the second biggest economy of the world. At best you can diversify supply chains. And even if you could replace all their production you still have opportunity costs and lose the benefits of comparative advantage. Any decoupling will come at great cost to all countries in the world.
On August 03 2022 01:40 Sermokala wrote: Didn't take gh for someone that would support imperialism, sad day. + Show Spoiler +
China isn't going to invade Taiwan beacuse it would crash their economy as fast as it would the worlds. People wouldn't insure oil tankers traveling from the middle east if they declare war on the us like that. If they are even trying to be as careful to not involve the us somehow it would make the south china sea a warzone that shipping will not travel through.
Remember Russia produces enough food to feed itself and oil to run it's economy. China has neither of these things and would despretly need the chip factories that Taiwan is sure to blow when the first rocket falls.
I don't. At best you're talking about an imperialist pissing match over whose influence a vassal is under.
You are false equivocating the US and China as it pertains to Taiwan here. China is the only one who is actively seeking to erase Taiwan's identity and absorb them. The US is not doing that. You never answered whether you think China is doing the right or wrong thing in this situation. Should Taiwan become a part of China?
The big picture here is that this is the worst possible time to go on one of these PR campaigns that everyone knows is going to piss China off. What's been accomplished here with this? China was going to invade Taiwan tomorrow but wont now because Pelosi stopped by for a chat?
If China backs down now its enough of a slap to the face to Xi that they will double their efforts of propping up Russia and getting even with the US through Russia. Pushing China and Russia together doesn't sound productive to US interests, maybe its great for the keyboard warrior that sees the World in blacks and whites... But the multi-polar World is fast approaching, and its just coming to us faster with stunts like this. Regardless of who is 'right' or 'wrong'
Also, if China attacks... well... good job Nancy Pelosi i guess.
Brinksmanship is an important part of a multipolar world. Just doing nothing and letting a country build up until it invades a neighbor is not good policy and Putin just showed us it does not work to just let the dictator do as he wants and hope that if he is rich enough he will keep his BS within his own borders. It is pretty certain that China knew what Putin was about too do. They are likely thinking of doing something similar. And what they did with Hong Kong should not have been met with a global shrug.
We all got to comfortable thinking that if people got rich they would keep making decisions to protect what makes them money, harmony. Clearly this failed so expect things to get uncomfortable because letting these dictators grow their empires is bad for us all long term.
Then what should be done? The way I see it, this strategy of containing China at all costs since Trump can backfire and just accelerate a ticking time bomb. The world was a safer place and economically better before the US tried to contain China by the Trump and now the Biden administration.
Sanctions clearly not working as Russia has resources, China is a near peer rival to the US. Both nuclear powers, a clear blunder by the US, pushing both of them to rely on each other. US alone can't contain either, but ganging up on them and pushing them in to a corner Is also not a wise decision.
The US should focus on Ukraine for now, as Putin should be dealt with in Ukraine with minimal loss of territory from Ukraine, that way It would also send a message to China. Fighting on two fronts is not wise.
This "one China policy" clearly isn't working out for either China or Taiwan. Maybe the US should try to broker some kind of agreement between the two, but this won't happen with the Cold War approach that the US is using to contain China.
You need to read upon taiwan-us relationship. The US will not broker any kind of agreement between the two. "[W]e see no mediation role for the United States” between Taiwan and the PRC". Also the plan of focusing on ukraine and let china take taiwan will, strangely, not give the message that taiwan is off limit.
I'm not saying that it won't be a huge hit to global economics but there aren't any critical industries in China that are value-added like any number of nations could pick up in the longterm. Africa is going to be growing in population greatly over the next few decades and will need some sort of economy to pick up that population boom. India exists as well as Indonesia. All those belt and road improvements create ready-made infrastructure to replace chinas production in the event of a war. How is china going to repossess what they've paid for if the nations just nationalize them?
You won't even need to fully replace them long term as the collapse of the Chinese government would at some point bring about a new government and the reopening of their economy.
On August 06 2022 19:22 Sermokala wrote: I think they are doing it to prepare for the invasion but I just don't see what China has to gain from them for what they will have to pay for it. The status quo just works so much better than any post Taiwan invasion scenario.
i don't think an actual invasion is on the table. China works and would rather continue to work on Taiwan's institutions trying to CCP-ize them and then going for a one state, two system kind of deal. i can't see Xi pulling out a Putin "special op.".
Perhaps Taiwan should take control of Main land China, and bring democracy instead of light the light to medium totalitarianship that is in place there right now. Or police state, as it where.
And about a war, oil is an important asset to secure for any country going to war. China is a huge oil consumer, that is why the goverment has been pushing electric production of civilian vehicles for over a decade. That and because always it’s cities air are extremely polluted. The US would cut off China from Venezuela, because the US navy controls the pacific, and the US navy and its allies control the exit to the gulf of Persia, and it would embargo Iran oil. Saudi Arabia would quickly stop selling oil to China in the event of it invading another country. Nigeria could be a possible supplier, and it is unclear what Norway would do with its oil.
So basically the ccp would be oil starved. Unless there exists a pipeline from Iran to China, because transporting oil via land is immensely expensive, unless a pipeline is operation, and it could be bombed as well.
Another factor to consider, is that China is a huge food importer, so several months into the war people would starve to death in China.
Remains to be seen how countries in the South Pacific would react, India would of course condemn the ccp, as they are not great friends, but what would Australia, Japan, and South Korea do? South Korea would probably remain neutral, as China and Korea both north and south have always had great relationships.
The ccp is not blind. They are playing the bully card as usual, bending on countries that have no real power and influence. The only country communist China invaded was Tibet, which, well, has no military at all, and is not an international player. Easy to bully a country who had a spiritual leader at its head. Taiwan has the US on its side, not because it actually cares about Taiwan, but because it knows how much it rattles the cage of the ccp. That one piece of the puzzle they never took over.
The relationship between China and Taiwan is not the same as that between Russia and Ukraine. You should not confuse the two. In October 1971, the 26th UN General Assembly adopted Resolution 2758, expelling the representatives of the Taiwan authorities and restoring the seat and all legal rights of the government of the people's Republic of China in the United Nations. In September 1972, China and Japan signed a joint statement and announced the establishment of diplomatic relations. Japan recognizes the government of the people's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China, fully understands and respects the position of the Chinese government that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the territory of the people's Republic of China, and adheres to the position stipulated in Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation. In December 1978, China and the United States issued a communique on the establishment of diplomatic relations, in which the United States "recognized the government of the people's Republic of China as the only legitimate government of China"; "Recognizing China's position, that is, there is only one China and Taiwan is a part of China". At present, 161 countries have established diplomatic relations with the people's Republic of China. They all recognize the one China principle and promise to handle their relations with Taiwan within the framework of one China. Is it the basic principle of western social interaction that the United States and some European countries keep going back on their words?
On August 07 2022 10:14 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The relationship between China and Taiwan is not the same as that between Russia and Ukraine. You should not confuse the two. In October 1971, the 26th UN General Assembly adopted Resolution 2758, expelling the representatives of the Taiwan authorities and restoring the seat and all legal rights of the government of the people's Republic of China in the United Nations. In September 1972, China and Japan signed a joint statement and announced the establishment of diplomatic relations. Japan recognizes the government of the people's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China, fully understands and respects the position of the Chinese government that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the territory of the people's Republic of China, and adheres to the position stipulated in Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation. In December 1978, China and the United States issued a communique on the establishment of diplomatic relations, in which the United States "recognized the government of the people's Republic of China as the only legitimate government of China"; "Recognizing China's position, that is, there is only one China and Taiwan is a part of China". At present, 161 countries have established diplomatic relations with the people's Republic of China. They all recognize the one China principle and promise to handle their relations with Taiwan within the framework of one China. Is it the basic principle of western social interaction that the United States and some European countries keep going back on their words?
How can you restore the seat of the PRC when the PRC never had a seat before and you do so by taking one from ROC? It is plain to all observers that there is no China that is more real or legitimate, there is simply one that is bigger. PRC won the civil war so they get the prize but you ought not to get too carried away with the propaganda. Nothing was restored and nobody believes there is one China, not even in the PRC government. They want the to be one, but they recognize there are two.
On August 07 2022 10:14 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The relationship between China and Taiwan is not the same as that between Russia and Ukraine. You should not confuse the two. In October 1971, the 26th UN General Assembly adopted Resolution 2758, expelling the representatives of the Taiwan authorities and restoring the seat and all legal rights of the government of the people's Republic of China in the United Nations. In September 1972, China and Japan signed a joint statement and announced the establishment of diplomatic relations. Japan recognizes the government of the people's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China, fully understands and respects the position of the Chinese government that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the territory of the people's Republic of China, and adheres to the position stipulated in Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation. In December 1978, China and the United States issued a communique on the establishment of diplomatic relations, in which the United States "recognized the government of the people's Republic of China as the only legitimate government of China"; "Recognizing China's position, that is, there is only one China and Taiwan is a part of China". At present, 161 countries have established diplomatic relations with the people's Republic of China. They all recognize the one China principle and promise to handle their relations with Taiwan within the framework of one China. Is it the basic principle of western social interaction that the United States and some European countries keep going back on their words?
How's the invasion of taiwan going buddy ? Eating up that propaganda like it's hot cake eh
On August 03 2022 01:14 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: Pelosi's visit to Taiwan gave China an excuse for military action against Taiwan。 Starting from the evening of August 2, the eastern theater of the Chinese people's Liberation Army will carry out a series of joint military operations around Taiwan Island, conduct joint sea and air training in the airspace of the north, southwest and East South China Sea of Taiwan Island, conduct long-range fire live fire in the Taiwan Strait, and organize normal missile fire test in the waters east of Taiwan Island. The Chinese media has driven the mood of the Chinese people. After Pelosi leaves Taiwan tomorrow, substantive military action may be taken. China chose to attack Taiwan without attacking American targets. Will the US military declare war with China? I don't know what will really happen, and I don't know what degree of military action will happen. What should happen in these days.
I hope you don't mind going back to extra polluted water/air just to spite the west btw. Must feel good knowing your government never really cared about it.
On August 07 2022 10:14 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The relationship between China and Taiwan is not the same as that between Russia and Ukraine. You should not confuse the two. In October 1971, the 26th UN General Assembly adopted Resolution 2758, expelling the representatives of the Taiwan authorities and restoring the seat and all legal rights of the government of the people's Republic of China in the United Nations. In September 1972, China and Japan signed a joint statement and announced the establishment of diplomatic relations. Japan recognizes the government of the people's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China, fully understands and respects the position of the Chinese government that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the territory of the people's Republic of China, and adheres to the position stipulated in Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation. In December 1978, China and the United States issued a communique on the establishment of diplomatic relations, in which the United States "recognized the government of the people's Republic of China as the only legitimate government of China"; "Recognizing China's position, that is, there is only one China and Taiwan is a part of China". At present, 161 countries have established diplomatic relations with the people's Republic of China. They all recognize the one China principle and promise to handle their relations with Taiwan within the framework of one China. Is it the basic principle of western social interaction that the United States and some European countries keep going back on their words?
This is really creepy to read. Taiwan doesn't want to be a part of China. That's where the conversation ends. You shouldn't want them to be forced.
On August 07 2022 10:14 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: The relationship between China and Taiwan is not the same as that between Russia and Ukraine. You should not confuse the two. In October 1971, the 26th UN General Assembly adopted Resolution 2758, expelling the representatives of the Taiwan authorities and restoring the seat and all legal rights of the government of the people's Republic of China in the United Nations. In September 1972, China and Japan signed a joint statement and announced the establishment of diplomatic relations. Japan recognizes the government of the people's Republic of China as the sole legitimate government of China, fully understands and respects the position of the Chinese government that Taiwan is an inalienable part of the territory of the people's Republic of China, and adheres to the position stipulated in Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation. In December 1978, China and the United States issued a communique on the establishment of diplomatic relations, in which the United States "recognized the government of the people's Republic of China as the only legitimate government of China"; "Recognizing China's position, that is, there is only one China and Taiwan is a part of China". At present, 161 countries have established diplomatic relations with the people's Republic of China. They all recognize the one China principle and promise to handle their relations with Taiwan within the framework of one China. Is it the basic principle of western social interaction that the United States and some European countries keep going back on their words?
The only reason why the West participates in this whole "one China" masquerade is because China is threatening to invade if Taiwan were to declare independence, not because it actually considers Taiwan an integral part of PRC.
On August 07 2022 05:24 pebble444 wrote: Perhaps Taiwan should take control of Main land China, and bring democracy instead of light the light to medium totalitarianship that is in place there right now. Or police state, as it where.
And about a war, oil is an important asset to secure for any country going to war. China is a huge oil consumer, that is why the goverment has been pushing electric production of civilian vehicles for over a decade. That and because always it’s cities air are extremely polluted. The US would cut off China from Venezuela, because the US navy controls the pacific, and the US navy and its allies control the exit to the gulf of Persia, and it would embargo Iran oil. Saudi Arabia would quickly stop selling oil to China in the event of it invading another country. Nigeria could be a possible supplier, and it is unclear what Norway would do with its oil.
So basically the ccp would be oil starved. Unless there exists a pipeline from Iran to China, because transporting oil via land is immensely expensive, unless a pipeline is operation, and it could be bombed as well.
Another factor to consider, is that China is a huge food importer, so several months into the war people would starve to death in China.
Remains to be seen how countries in the South Pacific would react, India would of course condemn the ccp, as they are not great friends, but what would Australia, Japan, and South Korea do? South Korea would probably remain neutral, as China and Korea both north and south have always had great relationships.
The ccp is not blind. They are playing the bully card as usual, bending on countries that have no real power and influence. The only country communist China invaded was Tibet, which, well, has no military at all, and is not an international player. Easy to bully a country who had a spiritual leader at its head. Taiwan has the US on its side, not because it actually cares about Taiwan, but because it knows how much it rattles the cage of the ccp. That one piece of the puzzle they never took over.
China invaded India and Vietnam and attempted to invade Taiwan as well. Not to mention the Korea war. They were quite active militarily for a while but not since Mao died.
What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
The colonial period was a consequence of rapid development, not the cause. I'm also not sure which countries the US colonized. Do you mean the expansion to the Pacific Ocean? In that case, China is no better. China's history is a history of constant expansion through military conquest. Here's a video showing how China's borders changed over the years:
Everything outside of the Han/Tan/Song core are other countries that China continues to rob. They just happen to have been annexed into China. Case in point: Xinjiang.
As for the wars, the number of wars waged by China dwarfs those waged by the US:
Also China relying on its own diligence? China has been a massive benefactor of Western investment ever since Deng's reforms. It also heavily relies on technology theft...
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
What double standards? The China/Taiwan situation and western countries' official stance towards it can be simplified to: I know she's your wife but I still won't let you beat her.
I would also like to remind you that even though European countries do have a history of conquest and colonization (like most countries) it's not like they're actively trying to reclaim their colonies or conquer new land. You really think other countries would be OK if suddenly UK decided on "One England" policy and wanted to invade Ireland all over again or demanded others don't count US as a separate country?
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
And China would then announce it is selling all of it’s trillion dollars worth of US treasury securities in one go.US inflation now is highest in 41 years but it would go far higher.China has got the USA by the balls economically.
So basically the ccp would be oil starved. Unless there exists a pipeline from Iran to China, because transporting oil via land is immensely expensive, unless a pipeline is operation, and it could be bombed as well.
Another factor to consider, is that China is a huge food importer, so several months into the war people would starve to death in China.
China has been Russia’s biggest oil export market for several years.Luckily for China they can have any excess Europe suddenly does not want.Same with Russian grain.Wow, no wonder China has been so coy on the Ukraine situation.
Western sanctions on Russia have succeeded in bringing China and Russia closer together whilst condemning western consumers and businesses to higher energy and food prices.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Well, the last time certain states in the US decided to no longer be part of the US, a civil war was the result.
And China would then announce it is selling all of it’s trillion dollars worth of US treasury securities in one go.US inflation now is highest in 41 years but it would go far higher.China has got the USA by the balls economically.
So basically the ccp would be oil starved. Unless there exists a pipeline from Iran to China, because transporting oil via land is immensely expensive, unless a pipeline is operation, and it could be bombed as well.
Another factor to consider, is that China is a huge food importer, so several months into the war people would starve to death in China.
China has been Russia’s biggest oil export market for several years.Luckily for China they can have any excess Europe suddenly does not want.Same with Russian grain.Wow, no wonder China has been so coy on the Ukraine situation.
Western sanctions on Russia have succeeded in bringing China and Russia closer together whilst condemning western consumers and businesses to higher energy and food prices.
Do you know how bond pricing works? Flooding the market will crash the price and China would receive pennies on the dollar for them. That hurts China as much as the US.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Well, the last time certain states in the US decided to no longer be part of the US, a civil war was the result.
I’m mostly replying to gobbledygook, but JimmiC, you might mention why it’s a false equivalence, otherwise your post is pointless.
I’m no Civil War scholar, so this is a chance for me to learn. According to thirty minutes on Wikipedia, President Lincoln did not recognize the Confederacy as a legitimate sovereign country, but neither did he launch a military attack on it in response to Southern secessions. Instead, he attempted to peacefully negotiate with individual state governors. He retained control of federal land where possible, such as Fort Sumter. Confederate forces then bombarded Fort Sumter and federal ships that were supplying it.
I could see why China would be belligerent toward Taiwan if Taiwan were lobbing missiles at China, but that’s not the case.
That being said, I don’t agree with the premise implied by many in this thread that if the United States has ever done anything bad, then it’s right for China to do it too. Even if history and modern moral sensibilities were to conclude that Lincoln was some kind of Attila the Hun who barbarically destroyed the Confederacy, that wouldn’t take away the right of Taiwan’s people to govern themselves. Likewise, the Native American genocide doesn’t excuse China’s violence toward Uyghurs, nor does America’s support of Taiwan excuse its role in Palestine’s occupation, etc.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Well, the last time certain states in the US decided to no longer be part of the US, a civil war was the result.
I’m mostly replying to gobbledygook, but JimmiC, you might mention why it’s a false equivalence, otherwise your post is pointless.
I’m no Civil War scholar, so this is a chance for me to learn. According to thirty minutes on Wikipedia, President Lincoln did not recognize the Confederacy as a legitimate sovereign country, but neither did he launch a military attack on it in response to Southern secessions. Instead, he attempted to peacefully negotiate with individual state governors. He retained control of federal land where possible, such as Fort Sumter. Confederate forces then bombarded Fort Sumter and federal ships that were supplying it.
I could see why China would be belligerent toward Taiwan if Taiwan were lobbing missiles at China, but that’s not the case.
That being said, I don’t agree with the premise implied by many in this thread that if the United States has ever done anything bad, then it’s right for China to do it too. Even if history and modern moral sensibilities were to conclude that Lincoln was some kind of Attila the Hun who barbarically destroyed the Confederacy, that wouldn’t take away the right of Taiwan’s people to govern themselves. Likewise, the Native American genocide doesn’t excuse China’s violence toward Uyghurs, nor does America’s support of Taiwan excuse its role in Palestine’s occupation, etc.
I agree. And with Civil War in the US I think it was actually purely economic dispute, rather than ideological one. Rich south didn't want to support poor north so they wanted to bail out of Confederacy. But I'm no expert on the subject either.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Well, the last time certain states in the US decided to no longer be part of the US, a civil war was the result.
I’m mostly replying to gobbledygook, but JimmiC, you might mention why it’s a false equivalence, otherwise your post is pointless.
I’m no Civil War scholar, so this is a chance for me to learn. According to thirty minutes on Wikipedia, President Lincoln did not recognize the Confederacy as a legitimate sovereign country, but neither did he launch a military attack on it in response to Southern secessions. Instead, he attempted to peacefully negotiate with individual state governors. He retained control of federal land where possible, such as Fort Sumter. Confederate forces then bombarded Fort Sumter and federal ships that were supplying it.
I could see why China would be belligerent toward Taiwan if Taiwan were lobbing missiles at China, but that’s not the case.
That being said, I don’t agree with the premise implied by many in this thread that if the United States has ever done anything bad, then it’s right for China to do it too. Even if history and modern moral sensibilities were to conclude that Lincoln was some kind of Attila the Hun who barbarically destroyed the Confederacy, that wouldn’t take away the right of Taiwan’s people to govern themselves. Likewise, the Native American genocide doesn’t excuse China’s violence toward Uyghurs, nor does America’s support of Taiwan excuse its role in Palestine’s occupation, etc.
I agree. And with Civil War in the US I think it was actually purely economic dispute, rather than ideological one. Rich south didn't want to support poor north so they wanted to bail out of Confederacy. But I'm no expert on the subject either.
I don't want to derail this thread too much but a quick note: the US Civil War was entirely about slavery and racism and not economics. The Confederacy's (the state in open rebellion, also referred to as "the south") Vice President infamously gave a speech known as the Cornerstone Speech where he declared that the Confederacy was based upon “the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.” Also, the northern states (the ones that did not rebel) were doing fine economically. They had industrialized whereas the south had not and that industrialization was in part why the north was able to win the war.
To make this relevant to thread: I don't think the US Civil War is a good analogy for what we're seeing between China and Taiwan. I think a better analogy would be if after the Revolutionary War the US made the UK their enemy and constantly threatened to invade so they could reunite the two under one banner.
To me the US's ongoing war crimes aren't a matter of justifying other bad actions but about understanding the hollow nature of the US's moralizing justifications behind it's aggression against China, illegal invasions, arming and protecting an illegal occupation, arming/supporting an authoritarian absolute monarchy, etc.
The US couldn't care less about the people of Taiwan, their democracy, or sovereignty. All of them are disposable to the US for profit and power. The US's positions on Taiwan are reflective of what it believes will obtain/maintain hegemonic power and/or be the most profitable.
The US would have been sanctioned into the ground dozens of times if it were held to a fraction of the standard it leverages the world to hold it's opposition to. Instead the western world turns an effective blind eye to decades of unaccountable US war crimes and unites against the opposition to US hegemony under a false banner of human rights/freedom/democracy/etc.
That people ostensibly on the left go full Machiavelli when it comes to US foreign policy is another ball of wax.
On August 09 2022 01:35 GreenHorizons wrote: To me the US's ongoing war crimes aren't a matter of justifying other bad actions but about understanding the hollow nature of the US's moralizing justifications behind it's aggression against China, illegal invasions, arming and protecting an illegal occupation, arming/supporting an authoritarian absolute monarchy, etc.
The US couldn't care less about the people of Taiwan, their democracy, or sovereignty. All of them are disposable to the US for profit and power. The US's positions on Taiwan are reflective of what it believes will obtain/maintain hegemonic power and/or be the most profitable.
The US would have been sanctioned into the ground dozens of times if it were held to a fraction of the standard it leverages the world to hold it's opposition to. Instead the western world turns an effective blind eye to decades of unaccountable US war crimes and unites against the opposition to US hegemony under a false banner of human rights/freedom/democracy/etc.
That people ostensibly on the left go full Machiavelli when it comes to US foreign policy is another ball of wax.
None of this is an argument against supporting Taiwan or for supporting China. Even if all of this is true it does not change the fact that Taiwan should be free to choose themselves if they want to become a part of the PRC or not.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
Hong Kong and Macao were handed over because of the UN resolutions regarding decolonization. UK wanted to maintain governance over Hong Kong for a period of time in an administrative capacity to help facilitate numerous deals (no one wanted to start any new projects there when HK was going to be handed over to China and existing projects started backing out because their future wasn't promised as various land deals and such would become null and void after UK exited the scene). From what I gathered UK was all for making Hong Kong a sovereign territory but China wouldn't agree to that. Situation with Macao was similar, Portugal wasn't interested in keeping it as a colony and was willing to let it go so it could be its own sovereign country but China had its claws dug in.
On August 09 2022 01:35 GreenHorizons wrote: To me the US's ongoing war crimes aren't a matter of justifying other bad actions but about understanding the hollow nature of the US's moralizing justifications behind it's aggression against China, illegal invasions, arming and protecting an illegal occupation, arming/supporting an authoritarian absolute monarchy, etc.
The US couldn't care less about the people of Taiwan, their democracy, or sovereignty. All of them are disposable to the US for profit and power. The US's positions on Taiwan are reflective of what it believes will obtain/maintain hegemonic power and/or be the most profitable.
The US would have been sanctioned into the ground dozens of times if it were held to a fraction of the standard it leverages the world to hold it's opposition to. Instead the western world turns an effective blind eye to decades of unaccountable US war crimes and unites against the opposition to US hegemony under a false banner of human rights/freedom/democracy/etc.
That people ostensibly on the left go full Machiavelli when it comes to US foreign policy is another ball of wax.
None of this is an argument against supporting Taiwan or for supporting China. + Show Spoiler +
Even if all of this is true it does not change the fact that Taiwan should be free to choose themselves if they want to become a part of the PRC or not.
I must say that watching media coming out from China feels completely surreal. Like someone would try writing a book for the first time in their life, trying to come up with a fictional country and how it operates and what daily lives of people would look there but having no idea how to do it so it all ends up extremely cringe.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
The lease was expiring and China made it clear to Maggie that they would march in and take it if no deal was signed.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
The lease was expiring and China made it clear to Maggie that they would march in and take it if no deal was signed.
China has been making it clear for a long time that they would march into Taiwan if they could. China, I think, would be less likely to invade British territory than Taiwan if the UK made a stand for HK. That's my 2 cents. NATO countries never gave two shits about what the UN thought about anything or whatever it decreed if it was against that NATO countries interests. If London wanted it at the time, Hong Kong would still be Hong Kong today.
edit: The people of Hong Kong explicitly never wanted to be a part of mainland China, decolonized or colonized.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
The lease was expiring and China made it clear to Maggie that they would march in and take it if no deal was signed.
China has been making it clear for a long time that they would march into Taiwan if they could. China, I think, would be less likely to invade British territory than Taiwan if the UK made a stand for HK. That's my 2 cents. NATO countries never gave two shits about what the UN thought about anything or whatever it decreed if it was against that NATO countries interests. If London wanted it at the time, Hong Kong would still be Hong Kong today.
edit: The people of Hong Kong explicitly never wanted to be a part of mainland China, decolonized or colonized.
How are you simultaneously sure that you’re right and citing NATO while referring to an island off the coast of China? NATO has zero relevance outside the NA region (from the NATO acronym). Hong Kong was militarily indefensible (as has already been explained to you, it’s much closer to the mainland than Taiwan) and diplomatically indefensible (it was seized during the Opium Wars through naked colonialism and there was no good argument for why illegally stolen land ought not to be returned).
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
The right of the people of Taiwan to peacefully govern their own affairs doesn't hinge on the status of Macao, nor on your personal evaluation of how Chinese they are.
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
The right of the people of Taiwan to peacefully govern their own affairs doesn't hinge on the status of Macao, nor on your personal evaluation of how Chinese they are.
One could argue Taiwan is more Chinese than China since they kept their religion and tradition which were destroyed by communists in the mainland. They also use the original characters for their writing, not the simplified script. So, basically, the Chinese legacy lies in Taiwan, not China (and I guess this irks CCP to no end).
On August 07 2022 19:13 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: What the media in Europe and the United States and China publicize is exactly the same. It is always double standard, always arrogant and hypocritical, and also very ignorant. It can be seen clearly from the thoughts of ordinary Europeans and Americans in this small forum. Europe and the United States developed rapidly through various colonization and looting, accompanied by various bloody wars. It is fortunate that China does not need to rob other countries and can develop by relying on its own diligence. The United States has launched the most wars in the world and has not been threatened or sanctioned. No matter whether it is a just or shameful war, morality can not restrain anyone, only strength.
This is just gaslighting and whataboutism. Why should Taiwan be forced to join China against their will? I'm not asking what bad things have happened before. I am asking why Taiwan shouldn't have a choice. Why?
Nobody asked the people of Hong Kong weather or not they wanted to be a part of China either. But the UK traded them around like a piece of meat. Macao wasn't even a part of China since the 16th century, still didn't stop the Portuguese from handing it over in 1999
What is your conclusion here? Are you saying that was a good or bad thing to do? Are you saying that kind of behavior should continue, or it should stop?
I'm saying if the position of the Anglo-centric part of the globe is to not hand over (or let China take) territories whos populations do not want to be a part of China they should have been more consistent about it. I personally think Taiwan is more Chinese and a part of China by identity than Hong Kong, at least Hong Kong as it was before 1997.
The right of the people of Taiwan to peacefully govern their own affairs doesn't hinge on the status of Macao, nor on your personal evaluation of how Chinese they are.
One could argue Taiwan is more Chinese than China since they kept their religion and tradition which were destroyed by communists in the mainland. They also use the original characters for their writing, not the simplified script. So, basically, the Chinese legacy lies in Taiwan, not China (and I guess this irks CCP to no end).
As far as I am concerned, the China we know as China today is just Western China. The side of culture/history is in "Taiwan"
It seems now Pakistan is going the way of Sri Lanka and is on the verge of bankruptcy (their forex reserves will last them for up to 2 months of imports at most). This is relevant for China as it was a vital point in their Belt and Road initiative and it'll also be unable to pay off its debts to China (around $25 billion), putting more pressure on China's finances.
On August 09 2022 22:31 Manit0u wrote: It seems now Pakistan is going the way of Sri Lanka and is on the verge of bankruptcy (their forex reserves will last them for up to 2 months of imports at most). This is relevant for China as it was a vital point in their Belt and Road initiative and it'll also be unable to pay off its debts to China (around $25 billion), putting more pressure on China's finances.
It'll be interesting to see if they blame this collapse on the belt and road debt or not. One country can be blamed on bad management but when it it's more than one it becomes a pattern.
Pakistan has gone to the imf for bailouts a lot of times but this time they said no because they have to reorganize their Chinese debt first as it was unsustainable.
On August 09 2022 22:31 Manit0u wrote: It seems now Pakistan is going the way of Sri Lanka and is on the verge of bankruptcy (their forex reserves will last them for up to 2 months of imports at most). This is relevant for China as it was a vital point in their Belt and Road initiative and it'll also be unable to pay off its debts to China (around $25 billion), putting more pressure on China's finances.
It'll be interesting to see if they blame this collapse on the belt and road debt or not. One country can be blamed on bad management but when it it's more than one it becomes a pattern.
Pakistan has gone to the imf for bailouts a lot of times but this time they said no because they have to reorganize their Chinese debt first as it was unsustainable.
Well, according to the analysts there are at least 60+ other countries that might go this route this year. In regards to belt and road initiative I think it's a bit of an "unfortunate coincidence" when it comes to its relevance to China.
From my perspective it looks like China was giving poor, developing countries loans and investing its own infrastructure there in a long term plan of creating alternative transit routes and such to disrupt/control the global supply chain. What China did not account for was COVID, war in Ukraine and upcoming global market crash. So, instead of having several poorer countries around the world be subservient to China (having difficulties handling their debts to them etc.) they ended up with big investments that can't pay off as those countries are going bankrupt.
I'm no expert on economy, especially when it comes to factoring in global stuff but that's how it looks like to me at the moment. Perhaps someone better versed in this could shed some light on it or provide more insight.
Dunno, a lot of people are worried about North Korea, too, and that country does basically nothing right. People being worried about you does not mean that you do something right.
I dont agree on our goverment on 2 things 1. belt and road, most invest tons of money on 3rd world foreign lands is a pure waste of money. 2. In international affairs,our propaganda should not just pick the good news, this is miss-leading, people should hear the critisizes of westnern people , not just west politicians. ,many people in China believe the western people like China, that is far from truth.
The investments are not wastes of money if the plan is to extract treaty ports from 3rd world nations in exchange for debt relief. The problem is that China isn't in a position to enforce those treaty ports like the colonial empires did. 3rd world countries nationalized industries in the cold war and some nations just got left out in the cold.
On August 10 2022 22:36 allending2016 wrote: many people in China believe the western people like China, that is far from truth.
It's not China, it's the Chinese government, and specifically its awful record on human rights and freedom of speech. Every Chinese expat that I've gotten to know (there are several among my friends, family, and colleagues) is friendly, generous, hardworking, and graceful in adversity. I have no basis to think badly of Chinese people (certain posts in this thread excepted) and plenty of reason to think well. I wish only the best for the people of China.
Governments and leaders that are insecure about their reputations usually seek to tie their own reputation to that of the country itself. For example, Netanyahu always made sure to call criticisms of Israel's policies anti-Semitic. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if Xi spun a narrative that people who thought he was awful simply have an irrational hatred of China, but it's not so. Xi's regime is moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech, and even people with no antipathy for China can recognize that.
Check out the US Politics thread here. You'll see a lot of Americans who love their country very much but are able to see that many elements of our government are noxious. You'll also see Europeans and others discussing the United States, and the American posters are generally capable of conversing with them while keeping a level head and not taking everything personally.
What confused the chinese most is that- If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech", how can you people "with no antipathy for china can recognize that"? I feel that we are moving in the opposite direction, the goverment's work are more transparent, corruptions are limited, Xi said everyone should have a dignified life and applied many policies to lift up people's lives, improving environmental protection and personal rights,we can visit more foreign websites, 4chan、imdb ...etc were not available years ago,but,yes,political discussions referring to NK and TW are still limited in china, it is China's "politically incorrect" subjects. And that's why chinese people with English skills would have a interest to talk about politics in foreign forums. I post on 4chan /pol/ too, that is another style of world
On August 11 2022 12:08 allending2016 wrote: What confused the chinese most is that- If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech", how can you people "with no antipathy for china can recognize that"? I feel that we are moving in the opposite direction, the goverment's work are more transparent, corruptions are limited, Xi said everyone should have a dignified life and applied many policies to lift up people's lives, improving environmental protection and personal rights,we can visit more foreign websites, 4chan、imdb ...etc were not available years ago,but,yes,political discussions referring to NK and TW are still limited in china, it is China's "politically incorrect" subjects. And that's why chinese people with English skills would have a interest to talk about politics in foreign forums. I post on 4chan /pol/ too, that is another style of world
/pol/ is not a serious discussion board, you would only infer awful takes from there. I don't believe a Chinese could go on /pol/ and make reasonable assumptions about anything. You almost have to treat it as opposite of reality.
On August 11 2022 12:08 allending2016 wrote: What confused the chinese most is that- If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech", how can you people "with no antipathy for china can recognize that"?
According to US congressional reports, international human rights watchdog organizations, and eyewitness testimony shared through multiple news outlets, what you've got in Xinjiang is a genocide-flavored police state.
It's also well known that Hong Kong had massive protests demanding proper democracy (a chance to vote for a representative that wasn't hand-picked by the CCP) and these protests were violently suppressed and the sought-after reforms were not delivered. In the aftermath a lot of journalists and activists have been jailed.
>>> If we who live in this regime did not feel we are "moving in an awful direction in terms of human rights and freedom of speech" Who is we? For whom do you speak? What evidence is there that public opinion is the same as your opinion? Look, if Xi thought he had public support, he wouldn't be president for life. Leaders "for life" themselves to protect themselves from the public.
the "we" I metioned are regular Chinese as me. the things happened in Xinjiang and HK you mentioned above are quite different from what our media told us. The CCTV talk about XJ and HK frequently, we know in 2019~2020 there were a group of hongkong people orgnized by Huang and Luo, Incited by some people with ulterior motives, tried to overthrow the goverment. And western journalists reporting "genocide" in Xinjiang. Look, our goverment had numerously claimed such reports were "fake news"or "made-up stories", I don't want to repeat it, maybe it is not politically correct here. Actually most Chinese people do not really care about these things. I am not surprised such things would happen, and will continously happen in the global "containing china" backgroud. As to the "power for-life" thing, it is not very well accepted by regular Chinese people, the only resonable explaination is that president Xi really want to achieve the final unification in his term of service.
I am just curious, had anyone of you guys ever questioned the propaganda on your side? I tried to think independently since childhood, I found many things are questionable in politics, it's just so complicated and interest-related , there are groups of “elite class" try to manipulate what people think and even the way they think, not only on the east side I believe.
The thing is, we have lots of different sources with lots of different positions. You extrapolate your situation to ours. That is not correct. Just because your media is all propaganda does not mean all media is.
On August 11 2022 18:38 Simberto wrote: The thing is, we have lots of different sources with lots of different positions. You extrapolate your situation to ours. That is not correct. Just because your media is all propaganda does not mean all media is.
Can you give an example of media that you think isn't propaganda?
On August 11 2022 18:12 allending2016 wrote: the only resonable explaination is that president Xi really want to achieve the final unification in his term of service.
And what if some of the lands that Xi wants to achieve "final unification" with do not want to be unified?
On August 11 2022 18:38 Simberto wrote: The thing is, we have lots of different sources with lots of different positions. You extrapolate your situation to ours. That is not correct. Just because your media is all propaganda does not mean all media is.
Can you give an example of media that you think isn't propaganda?
I think what he meant is that while you still have propaganda in western media at least you're able to see different view points (left wing media vs right wing media for example) and regardless of where the media is leaning most of them are still able to publish pieces that criticize the government and its decisions. It appears that in China you can't say a bad thing about the CCP, regardless of your position.
I think I've seen the term "politically incorrect" brought up a few times.
The most significant difference between china and the west that I think gets lost a lot in these conversations is that in the west there is an at least implied right to speech and press that is free from government punishment. The term "politically correct" comes from the wider base of what is socially acceptable. In china however this has a very very different connotation to meaning that if you say something "politically incorrect" you will be punished by the state that has no accountability to its people. trying to coop western terms to things in china that is woefully different than what it means is the west just hurts communication. Xi is a dictator that has no terms, just time until he is taken out of power. I have yet to see any credible reason why he would want to be the guy to take back taiwan militarily with how much damage it will cause the country.
I can understand that Chinese people don't want to talk about the things in china that the ccp will come after them for talking about. that has to be understood that us in the west don't have those limitations and find it morally wrong to have the government stop us from talking about those things.
I think another big difference is in the media consumers themselves. If you can discern propaganda for what it is and can see the clear bias it's much less effective.
To be honest I still think the majority of people can't do that, even in the west (might depend on the country and overall level of education) but there's enough people who can and they can kind of keep the media in check.
On August 11 2022 18:38 Simberto wrote: The thing is, we have lots of different sources with lots of different positions. You extrapolate your situation to ours. That is not correct. Just because your media is all propaganda does not mean all media is.
We have lots of different sources with lots of different positions too, especially today.The concept "we media" was created under the innovation of Web 2.0 technology, including a variety of personal Internet news application, in which blog, podcast, SNS and micro-blog are currently the most popular forms in China. And we have views from Japan/korea/india...too, not only English information sources.
I am not extrapolate my situation to yours, our media is not all propaganda (like yours), as we hear views from many other countries including the west, I think we have a wider view on many things. Many chinese read japnese/korean too, we can easily visit their website with or without vpn.
I can understand that Chinese people don't want to talk about the things in china that the ccp will come after them for talking about.
Actually we can talk about TW, but why TW topics is limited? The reason is complicated. there are 261,390 taiwan enterprises in mainland china, hiring millions of workers. What do we mainlanders would talk about taiwan? When to get it back? That will cause conflicts with people from taiwan, I think the goverment don't want to irritate the masses of taiwan excessively. on the biggest chinese forums, tieba ( 300million active accounts), we have political forums and taiwan forums, I am not sure if you can visit them but I will give links. https://tieba.baidu.com/f?ie=utf-8&kw=台湾
the problem is this , when you post something politically sensetive, 6 of your 10 post will be deleted, so you are losing the interest to post more unless you learned how to avoid the keywords-censoring.
And what if some of the lands that Xi wants to achieve "final unification" with do not want to be unified?
the final unification means - taiwan, no other lands. it is also the wish of 1.4billion chinese people. In the last 73 years since the kuomintang flee to taiwan with 2million refugees/troops, the taiwan ruling party never seeked independence in public until their recent goverments. The old people in taiwan still accept that tw is part of china, while their descendants, after decades of brainwash, believe they would better to get independence. The time advantage is on our side, so I think there will not be any real actions in 5-10 years if the international situation is stable.
And what if some of the lands that Xi wants to achieve "final unification" with do not want to be unified?
the final unification means - taiwan, no other lands. it is also the wish of 1.4billion chinese people. In the last 73 years since the kuomintang flee to taiwan with 2million refugees/troops, the taiwan ruling party never seeked independence in public until their recent goverments. The old people in taiwan still accept that tw is part of china, while their descendants, after decades of brainwash, believe they would better to get independence. The time advantage is on our side, so I think there will not be any real actions in 5-10 years if the international situation is stable.
I think there could be some people HK and Macau that do not want to be "unified", the 2 places were rent to england and portugal for 99 years, It should of course be given back,there is no argument about that. And people in colony could be unwilling to be colonized, but what can stop it? only powers.
I can understand that Chinese people don't want to talk about the things in china that the ccp will come after them for talking about.
Actually we can talk about TW, but why TW topics is limited? The reason is complicated. there are 261,390 taiwan enterprises in mainland china, hiring millions of workers. What do we mainlanders would talk about taiwan? When to get it back? That will cause conflicts with people from taiwan, I think the goverment don't want to irritate the masses of taiwan excessively. on the biggest chinese forums, tieba ( 300million active accounts), we have political forums and taiwan forums, I am not sure if you can visit them but I will give links. https://tieba.baidu.com/f?ie=utf-8&kw=台湾
the problem is this , when you post something politically sensetive, 6 of your 10 post will be deleted, so you are losing the interest to post more unless you learned how to avoid the keywords-censoring.
You've got to be trolling, there's no way you can say that all our media is propaganda and you get some real stuff when you think that the ccp doesn't want to irritate Taiwan. They literally just shot missiles over the island while they surrounded it with naval exercises to kill off all the fish in their fishing grounds. They were constantly saying how Pelosi getting off the plane meant that they were going to invade. The wacky idea that the state with the great firewall somehow has wider access to information than the nations that invented web 2.0 is just silly.
TW topics are limited because your government decides what you are allowed to talk about and what you are not allowed to talk about. They don't trust you to believe fully that Taiwan is a nation that wants to be independent and to not be invaded. They only allow their subjects to have the opinions they deem you worthy of having.
The treaty ports weren't rented to the colonial powers they were just given to them to operate and build up as if they were apart of those countries. China is doing the same thing right now to countries with their belt and road debt traps. There is an argument that they probably shouldn't be given back with how the ccp likes to run over its citizens with tanks.
And what if some of the lands that Xi wants to achieve "final unification" with do not want to be unified?
the final unification means - taiwan, no other lands. it is also the wish of 1.4billion chinese people. In the last 73 years since the kuomintang flee to taiwan with 2million refugees/troops, the taiwan ruling party never seeked independence in public until their recent goverments. The old people in taiwan still accept that tw is part of china, while their descendants, after decades of brainwash, believe they would better to get independence. The time advantage is on our side, so I think there will not be any real actions in 5-10 years if the international situation is stable.
What about the people of Taiwan? You skirt around this issue, just like that last guy with the same talking points. Why do they not get to decide if they want to be part of the PRC?
I view two countries merging kind of similar to sex. If both sides are okay with it, it can be a wonderful and good thing.
If only one side wants it and the other is against it, it is rape. And it is utterly irrelevant how many people the sides consists of. A gangrape is still a rape.
On August 11 2022 22:32 Manit0u wrote: And what if some of the lands that Xi wants to achieve "final unification" with do not want to be unified?
The old people in taiwan still accept that tw is part of china, while their descendants, after decades of brainwash, believe they would better to get independence.
The only party/political movement in Taiwan that wants to be part of China has 20k members (their own self-proclaimed number). That's not a lot of support for a population of 24 million. Not to mention the fact that it's a party created in China and led by a triad boss.
The vast majority of Taiwanese people don't want to be a part of China. And as far as your statements about them not being in the UN, it's CCP's doing, Taiwan was one of the founding members of the UN. Also, since they have their own currency, passports accepted around the world, constitution and elected president they're a full blown independent country even if CCP forces others to say it isn't.
Yeah I'm not going to be feeding the trolls anymore. It was interesting but now I'm getting racist vibes from the practice.
With Pakistan running out of forex in two months I expect China to offer a bailout in exchange for Gwadar as a treaty port. Its pretty interesting to see China reinventing imperialism by not bothering to go to war even to take land from other countries.
The real estate industry issues in china seem really scary most of the municipal governments base their budgets on land leases as well as massive piles of debt. If that industry goes against them it could make them insolvent fast. If tanks are on the streets this early how bad do they think the real situation is?
I also wonder how this Chinese financial crisis will affect the US. Plenty of major investment companies like BlackRock, Allianz etc. have a lot of capital tied in Chinese real estate market. If they won't be able to pay their investors (a lot of US banks for example) it might be pretty bleak even in the west. Some analysts say that it might be as bad as people in the US losing entire pension funds etc.
Extreme heatwaves in China. People are reporting temperatures as high as 45-54 Celsius but there's no official info since media outlets in China cap temperature reports at 39C. Many rivers are drying up which might cause big power outages as quite a bit of China's power supply comes from the dams. The government has asked all industry in 19 cities to stop operation so that there'll be enough power to supply the citizens. I think the Sichuan province electricity output dropped down to 20% of nominal. The situation is pretty dire as people are snatching all the ice they can get and setting up tents inside ancient tombs to get away from the heat, 1000 year old wooden bridge spontaneously caught fire and burned to the ground etc. It's been over 65 days of heatwaves now.
there's no official info since media outlets in China cap temperature reports at 39C.
This strikes me as especially stupid propaganda to make up/believe/spread.
Sources from China are limited. The info I was able to find about it stated that official weather reports and forecasts don't show temps above 39 but people see 45+ on the devices in their cars, people upload videos about cooking beef on the concrete etc.
The six provinces particularly affected by the drought and heat wave produced 48% of China’s rice in 2021, the note said.
This part is particularly worrying knowing China's history with hunger and famous quote from Chairman Mao on how to handle such matters: "If there isn't enough food it's fine to let half of the population die so that others can eat their fill."
At least they explain why in weather forecasts in local media in China they don't show temperatures over 39C. They have a law that if the temp is over 39 they can't go to work or school so they're capping the temps so that people don't skip on work.
At least they explain why in weather forecasts in local media in China they don't show temperatures over 39C. + Show Spoiler +
They have a law that if the temp is over 39 they can't go to work or school so they're capping the temps so that people don't skip on work.
Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Just fyi, the the China Meteorological Administration says 40C doesn't even put you in the top 10 hottest cities this year.
Even 40 C cannot qualify a city to enter the top 10 hottest cities in the country. The threshold for the ranking is as high as 42 C on Saturday, according to CMA data.
What does this map even show? That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
You can even look at an old weather data for that:
Looking at this map (the annual average temperature) shows that the temp at the southern part of China from the point where they show 40C should be around 6C higher, not 5C lower...
On August 30 2022 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Where else am I to look for a reliable source of information then? They're people who've spent over a decade living in China, have Chinese wives and family, a lot of friends there so get access to all the internal news but also have the foreign perspective.
Give me alternatives that aren't state propaganda, have similar length of experience, are not Chinese nationals and I'll gladly check them out (I will also check Chinese nationals' opinions but I'll take them with a grain of salt).
Edit:
I get it that some people might color me malicious or something like that but I'm just genuinely curious. Information regarding China that does not come from official sources is pretty hard to come by and I'm actually worried for the people living there. I've been a member of this community almost from its inception 15+ years ago and I know that there's plenty of asian people in it (Chinese ex-pats etc.) who might have family there and might be able to provide more information free of CCP censorship. I really don't get why simply wanting to know more about the current situation would label me as huge trouble starter etc.
That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
You can even look at an old weather data for that:
Looking at this map (the annual average temperature) shows that the temp at the southern part of China from the point where they show 40C should be around 6C higher, not 5C lower...
On August 30 2022 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Where else am I to look for a reliable source of information then? They're people who've spent over a decade living in China, have Chinese wives and family, a lot of friends there so get access to all the internal news but also have the foreign perspective.
Give me alternatives that aren't state propaganda, have similar length of experience, are not Chinese nationals and I'll gladly check them out (I will also check Chinese nationals' opinions but I'll take them with a grain of salt).
That the propaganda you repeatedly spread and continue to push claiming "weather forecasts in local media in China don't show temperatures over 39C" is demonstrably false.
It is such aggressively stupid propaganda I felt compelled to point it out.
The discussion about China's political clues here is really ridiculous，Whenever a Chinese person seriously analyzes something about China, he will be maliciously speculated and labeled as the Communist Party of China. Although the views of the Chinese people who come here to reply are not completely consistent, no matter how they reply, they are considered to be lying, propaganda or brainwashing. It is absurd to keep expelling Chinese people in a clue about China. Most people in Europe and America here do not understand China's history and actual situation, nor do they really care about China's affairs. They can only know a little about China through the Internet and some false information. When no one participated in this clue, he could not get several replies a week, but he kept maliciously refusing to accept the real information provided by Chinese people living in China. Is this clue not funny enough?
The hottest place in China's weather forecast is already 45 degrees. In my place, it has been 40-42 degrees for more than 10 days. The limit of 39 degrees may have existed 20 years ago, but it does not exist now. China has strict requirements on temperature, mainly for people working outdoors. Measures for the management of heatstroke prevention and cooling measures: 1. If the daily maximum temperature reaches 40 ° C or above, outdoor outdoor operation on that day shall be stopped; 2. When the daily maximum temperature is above 37 ℃ and below 40 ℃, the employer shall not arrange outdoor open-air operation for more than 6 hours, and the continuous operation time shall not exceed the national regulations. Moreover, outdoor open-air operation shall not be arranged within 3 hours during the maximum temperature period; 3. When the daily maximum temperature is above 35 ℃ and below 37 ℃, the employer shall take the method of changing shifts and taking off to shorten the continuous working time of the workers, and shall not arrange the outdoor workers to work overtime.
That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
You can even look at an old weather data for that:
Looking at this map (the annual average temperature) shows that the temp at the southern part of China from the point where they show 40C should be around 6C higher, not 5C lower...
On August 30 2022 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Where else am I to look for a reliable source of information then? They're people who've spent over a decade living in China, have Chinese wives and family, a lot of friends there so get access to all the internal news but also have the foreign perspective.
Give me alternatives that aren't state propaganda, have similar length of experience, are not Chinese nationals and I'll gladly check them out (I will also check Chinese nationals' opinions but I'll take them with a grain of salt).
That the propaganda you repeatedly spread and continue to push claiming "weather forecasts in local media in China don't show temperatures over 39C" is demonstrably false.
It is such aggressively stupid propaganda I felt compelled to point it out.
What makes it propaganda? You seem fixated at a detail instead of the point, that they are artificially lowering the temperature. That is propaganda because the state is sending it out to influence the peoples opinions on what they are doing.
Some youtuber putting out info and not hitting every detail 100% is not "propaganda".
Correct me if I am wrong, I thought the original post regarding this "temperature" discussion is centre around the claim that the china media artificial cap the maximum temperature reported despite what is actually measured. Which other posters provide information contradict the claim that "maximum temperature capped at 39 C".
Extreme heatwaves in China. People are reporting temperatures as high as 45-54 Celsius but there's no official info since media outlets in China cap temperature reports at 39C. Many rivers are drying up which might cause big power outages as quite a bit of China's power supply comes from the dams. The government has asked all industry in 19 cities to stop operation so that there'll be enough power to supply the citizens. I think the Sichuan province electricity output dropped down to 20% of nominal. The situation is pretty dire as people are snatching all the ice they can get and setting up tents inside ancient tombs to get away from the heat, 1000 year old wooden bridge spontaneously caught fire and burned to the ground etc. It's been over 65 days of heatwaves now.
That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
You can even look at an old weather data for that:
Looking at this map (the annual average temperature) shows that the temp at the southern part of China from the point where they show 40C should be around 6C higher, not 5C lower...
On August 30 2022 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Where else am I to look for a reliable source of information then? They're people who've spent over a decade living in China, have Chinese wives and family, a lot of friends there so get access to all the internal news but also have the foreign perspective.
Give me alternatives that aren't state propaganda, have similar length of experience, are not Chinese nationals and I'll gladly check them out (I will also check Chinese nationals' opinions but I'll take them with a grain of salt).
That the propaganda you repeatedly spread and continue to push claiming "weather forecasts in local media in China don't show temperatures over 39C" is demonstrably false.
It is such aggressively stupid propaganda I felt compelled to point it out.
What makes it propaganda? You seem fixated at a detail instead of the point, that they are artificially lowering the temperature. That is propaganda because the state is sending it out to influence the peoples opinions on what they are doing.
Some youtuber putting out info and not hitting every detail 100% is not "propaganda".
This is pants on fire level fake news honestly. When the central claim is that the Chinese government censors temperatures above 39 degrees in order to avoid workers getting a day off, then direct evidence proves the contrary, this is not just an honest mistake. This is pants on fire.
On August 30 2022 07:11 Manit0u wrote: What does this map even show? That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
If you read Chinese you can easily spot the yellow letters "重庆 41.3℃”， Chongqing, is the most vital city in southeast China. It's not "in the middle of nowhere" I don't know where is the funny point here? you jugde the situations by single a weather forecast screenshot? Are you not the funny point?
We Chinese knew that Sichuan province suffered from heat, and in short of electricity, several old even passed away due to the heat, so..what？ and I am curious too, it is said in 2003 the heatwave caused 70,000 death in Europe,should I believe that?
On August 30 2022 07:11 Manit0u wrote: What does this map even show? That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
If you read Chinese you can easily spot the yellow letters "重庆 41.3℃”， Chongqing, is the most vital city in southeast China. It's not "in the middle of nowhere" I don't know where is the funny point here? you jugde the situations by single a weather forecast screenshot? Are you not the funny point?
We Chinese knew that Sichuan province suffered from heat, and in short of electricity, several old even passed away due to the heat, so..what？ and I am curious too, it is said in 2003 the heatwave caused 70,000 death in Europe,should I believe that?
You mean south west China not south east, but yes. Chongqing is one of the most important cities in China. It is not in the middle of nowhere.
That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
You can even look at an old weather data for that:
Looking at this map (the annual average temperature) shows that the temp at the southern part of China from the point where they show 40C should be around 6C higher, not 5C lower...
On August 30 2022 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Where else am I to look for a reliable source of information then? They're people who've spent over a decade living in China, have Chinese wives and family, a lot of friends there so get access to all the internal news but also have the foreign perspective.
Give me alternatives that aren't state propaganda, have similar length of experience, are not Chinese nationals and I'll gladly check them out (I will also check Chinese nationals' opinions but I'll take them with a grain of salt).
That the propaganda you repeatedly spread and continue to push claiming "weather forecasts in local media in China don't show temperatures over 39C" is demonstrably false.
It is such aggressively stupid propaganda I felt compelled to point it out.
What makes it propaganda? You seem fixated at a detail instead of the point, that they are artificially lowering the temperature. That is propaganda because the state is sending it out to influence the peoples opinions on what they are doing.
Some youtuber putting out info and not hitting every detail 100% is not "propaganda".
This is pants on fire level fake news honestly. When the central claim is that the Chinese government censors temperatures above 39 degrees in order to avoid workers getting a day off, then direct evidence proves the contrary, this is not just an honest mistake. This is pants on fire.
That's one of the reasons why this thread was started. Almost all the sources I was able to find claimed that the temps are capped. If they're not that's good but I still find it suspect that forecasts show 40-41 and people claim temps of 45-50+
Besides, if CCP is capping the temps or not is not really important. What's important right now is that the heatwave is real and how it might affect the country.
That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
You can even look at an old weather data for that:
Looking at this map (the annual average temperature) shows that the temp at the southern part of China from the point where they show 40C should be around 6C higher, not 5C lower...
On August 30 2022 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Where else am I to look for a reliable source of information then? They're people who've spent over a decade living in China, have Chinese wives and family, a lot of friends there so get access to all the internal news but also have the foreign perspective.
Give me alternatives that aren't state propaganda, have similar length of experience, are not Chinese nationals and I'll gladly check them out (I will also check Chinese nationals' opinions but I'll take them with a grain of salt).
That the propaganda you repeatedly spread and continue to push claiming "weather forecasts in local media in China don't show temperatures over 39C" is demonstrably false.
It is such aggressively stupid propaganda I felt compelled to point it out.
What makes it propaganda? You seem fixated at a detail instead of the point, that they are artificially lowering the temperature. That is propaganda because the state is sending it out to influence the peoples opinions on what they are doing.
Some youtuber putting out info and not hitting every detail 100% is not "propaganda".
This is pants on fire level fake news honestly. When the central claim is that the Chinese government censors temperatures above 39 degrees in order to avoid workers getting a day off, then direct evidence proves the contrary, this is not just an honest mistake. This is pants on fire.
That's one of the reasons why this thread was started. Almost all the sources I was able to find claimed that the temps are capped. If they're not that's good but I still find it suspect that forecasts show 40-41 and people claim temps of 45-50+
I see a few issues with this statement.
1, source Your statement implied multiple source state the same thing (temperature reported capped at 39 C). But how many of them are primary source?
Let take an imaginary example to illustrate this point: Let say the BBC, CNN, ABC all reported the same story, which was feed to them by AP. how many source was there? The answer is 1, the source is AP, and AP alone.
I doubt your "source" would actually be able to independently measure the temperature, so I think I could "boldly" claimed that whatever source you are reading, they are secondary source.
2, no counter checking The claim is that the temperature reported in public available weather report, while it is unlikely the chinese state television provide polish language coverage, it is not unheard of that it provide english coverage, which you could have checked. Your english language is good enough to post in this forum, then your english language is good enough to check the english channel of chinese state television.
3, science knowledge? it is very much possible for individual to experience the temperature higher than that of reported by the observatory. If you put a car under direct sunlight for a period of time, close all the windows and turn off air-condition system, it is normal to have the temperature inside the car to be higher than the outside. While quantitatively, I cannot say how many degree higher would be possible as I do not have the required information to calculate, stating "people reported they measured higher temperature than the observatory' is not really a good / reliable indicator of reporting bias / error of the observatory.
it is just pathetic that people debate on a natural disarster in a china politics thread, fortunatly it is not a proof of meteorological weapon made in China..... As a fact , China did manipulated temps in history, I heard of such things in the 90s or early 2000s, so construction workers were still allowed to work under the sun. Nowadays things are different, most working places are equipped with air-conditioners, I am in the air-conditioning industry, I know what's going on here, a reliable quality 1.5HP wall-mounted split type inverter air conditioner is about 2000~3000YUAN, which is around $350, R410A or R232 refrigerant，with a COP of 3.0 or APF-4. We are upgrading energy efficiency every year, you can hardly find new R22-refrigerant or fixed frequency equipments today. The govment is putting lots of money into the industry, encouraging people to buy air-conditioners with high energy performance. The goverment is making serious efforts to lower our carbon emission. I, as a air conditioning system designer, had visited so many construction sites, join meetings, do investigations...etc, the workers were no longer allowed to work at a temprature above 37°C(air temprature)，for those who must, will receive a hightemp-compensation. The workers are not fools, they refuse to work at high temprature without such compenstions, and usually companies choose to save the money if a few days delay is not essential. It is just a bit silly to estimate that the goverment will still do such a thing nowadays.... China has maga-computers and hundreds of meteorological satellites, my phone told me the rain will last another 10 minutes, everyone could check accurate temps at every hour, every city, with a a variety of apps (weatherforcast is a liitle different on iphone and android phones). I have many friends in different cities, some are in sichuan and chongqing, I never saw them post any Moments complaining about temperature misread. Not a single one this summer. Well, if some of you believe the Chinese are suffering in fire, then ...thanks for you attention.
You're saying there's no heat wave then? Even looking at portals like Windy you can see that SE China has temperatures like in the middle of the desert in Saudi Arabia (even Sahara isn't as hot it seems).
I get it that some people might color me malicious or something like that but I'm just genuinely curious.
Manit0u, you are malicious. Don't try to hide under "being concern" or "curious".
No, he is not, he looks more like a floating overlord with alzheimer disease , murmuring the nonsense everyday. The malicious one is that JimmeC if you read the whole thread, who attacked people like a lurker, cos he attacks everyone. People like them poop lots of shit are making this once good forum stink now. The rare one with a sober head is Greenhorizon, I am glad they don't listen to him.
That there's temperature over 40C a bit south of Xi'an in the middle of nowhere? It's kinda funny that the same map has this area in the same color as all the important cities to the south and south-east of this point, which are having the biggest issues with heat wave and it shows them at 35C (5C is a HUGE swing). If you look at almost any other weather map online you'll see that if anything the temperature to the south and south-east of this place is higher and not lower...
You can even look at an old weather data for that:
Looking at this map (the annual average temperature) shows that the temp at the southern part of China from the point where they show 40C should be around 6C higher, not 5C lower...
On August 30 2022 01:12 GreenHorizons wrote: Serpentza & co is where I expected you to pick up that propaganda.
Where else am I to look for a reliable source of information then? They're people who've spent over a decade living in China, have Chinese wives and family, a lot of friends there so get access to all the internal news but also have the foreign perspective.
Give me alternatives that aren't state propaganda, have similar length of experience, are not Chinese nationals and I'll gladly check them out (I will also check Chinese nationals' opinions but I'll take them with a grain of salt).
That the propaganda you repeatedly spread and continue to push claiming "weather forecasts in local media in China don't show temperatures over 39C" is demonstrably false.
It is such aggressively stupid propaganda I felt compelled to point it out.
What makes it propaganda? You seem fixated at a detail instead of the point, that they are artificially lowering the temperature. That is propaganda because the state is sending it out to influence the peoples opinions on what they are doing.
Some youtuber putting out info and not hitting every detail 100% is not "propaganda".
This is pants on fire level fake news honestly. When the central claim is that the Chinese government censors temperatures above 39 degrees in order to avoid workers getting a day off, then direct evidence proves the contrary, this is not just an honest mistake. This is pants on fire.
That's one of the reasons why this thread was started. Almost all the sources I was able to find claimed that the temps are capped. If they're not that's good but I still find it suspect that forecasts show 40-41 and people claim temps of 45-50+
I see a few issues with this statement.
1, source Your statement implied multiple source state the same thing (temperature reported capped at 39 C). But how many of them are primary source?
Let take an imaginary example to illustrate this point: Let say the BBC, CNN, ABC all reported the same story, which was feed to them by AP. how many source was there? The answer is 1, the source is AP, and AP alone.
I doubt your "source" would actually be able to independently measure the temperature, so I think I could "boldly" claimed that whatever source you are reading, they are secondary source.
2, no counter checking The claim is that the temperature reported in public available weather report, while it is unlikely the chinese state television provide polish language coverage, it is not unheard of that it provide english coverage, which you could have checked. Your english language is good enough to post in this forum, then your english language is good enough to check the english channel of chinese state television.
3, science knowledge? it is very much possible for individual to experience the temperature higher than that of reported by the observatory. If you put a car under direct sunlight for a period of time, close all the windows and turn off air-condition system, it is normal to have the temperature inside the car to be higher than the outside. While quantitatively, I cannot say how many degree higher would be possible as I do not have the required information to calculate, stating "people reported they measured higher temperature than the observatory' is not really a good / reliable indicator of reporting bias / error of the observatory.
Surely if this imagined massive conspiracy theory is more than propaganda originated by people like the bargain basement version of Tucker Carlson & co in China (Serpentza) we could expect to see reporting about it in places like the AP, BBC, CNN, ABC, WaPo, etc.
That none of them are running stories about this conspiracy theory indicates its potency is rooted in Sinophobic orientalism.
EDIT: Not that I take them as gospel, they are all unabashedly capitalist propagandists, but that even they aren't pushing this conspiracy theory should tell people how ridiculous it is.
JimmiC ,I don't know if you are 8 or 88，white or black, male or female, I don't really care what kind person you are ,but according to you former posts you seem to be someone really hates people, I will be sorry if I were wrong. this thread offered an oppotunity for the chinese sc players and western players to discuss problems and seek common ground while reserving differences，it could be productive and constructive, and there will be so many things happen in the future for people to discover, you, have ruined this thread. Congratulations. please don't hate me for my words, we once loved starcraft, we had at least 1 thing in common.
“There is nothing in world climatic history which is even minimally comparable to what is happening in China.” Also "It remains scientifically unclear whether cloud seeding makes a significant difference."
My understanding is that ground temperatures anywhere in the world can be read by weather satellites pretty accurately. If the CCP were to spread false temperature readings via news etc, the jig would be up pretty quickly due to temperature reports from outside of China. That said the CCP is certainly downplaying the severity of the climate crisis in China, this is to be expected and can be seen 1st hand by the lack of reporting on the subject from the major pro CCP and Xi Jinping news outlets:
BTW these 'news' sites are actually hilarious, the level of 'Wonderful leader, China is the greatest' combined with 'poor China, we are victims, USA is the worst' is cracked.
The nude unashamed propaganda maw, unmoved by mere facts, propelled by its own truth holds the people high, high aloft in dreams of unique success. It feeds them, clothes them and nurses them with but one aim alone; complete control of humanity through the historical narrative. There in utopian embraces it shackles us, only to unceremoniously devour and shit us out once we behold its eyes, its gargantuan lust for docile minds. And there in the death-muck we warn you; none are immune to its allure.
“There is nothing in world climatic history which is even minimally comparable to what is happening in China.”
Yeah. There are also news of people painting grass, bushes, quarries and mountain sides (with green oil paint no less) as well as rolling camo netting down the hills and stapling fake leaves on the trees to pretend everything is fine...
It really paints a bleak picture. Especially now with extended and stricter lockdowns (to the point where they don't let people evacuate during earthquakes) it all seems like China is visibly falling apart at the seams while simultaneously trying to project the image of strength.
Yeah I’m very curious why this may have happened, if it is true I mostly hope it’s not gonna be an increase in the authoritarianism and a decrease, though tbh I’m not sure how I feel about potentially having China’s tech sector basically get cracked open, that feels like it could have some bad effects.
Until a Western source reports on it then I am suspect. This could just be India's bot farms etc. at work. Besides there are a ton of foreigners in China, all with cellphones. Yet nothing...
There are a ton of Chinese with phones in China as well.
I admit it's very odd to see not even the idea of proof that he's alive well and walking outside his house in response to this but my money is on Iran being a real coup before china.
In the case of a coup the first thing you do is secure the media outlets and declare martial law. You have to make it clear to everyone that you are now in charge and the deposed leader is not. Nothing of the sort has happened in China.
Today is 25/sep (or 24/sep for some of the time zone), those tweets came out on 22/sep, and we have not heard anything from "major" news outlets regarding this news. If we compare the 2016 turkey (failed) coup, where everything is done and dusted in 1 day (or less than 24 hours if you will), this coup story does not seems to be credible.
As for heightened security in beijing, it might just because of the "20th national congress" that will take place on 16/oct, which take place once in 5 years. It is kind of "presidential election" if you "compare it to other countries" (they are not the same, but some element are, and the importance are the same), so it is not too abnormal to have some kind of security / army movement that you won't see at other times.
If there is indeed a coup, there will be information coming out very soon, and unless I read about information that Xi is not going to sit for the third term, I don't think there is any need to contemplate this coup "news".
“There is nothing in world climatic history which is even minimally comparable to what is happening in China.” Also "It remains scientifically unclear whether cloud seeding makes a significant difference."
My understanding is that ground temperatures anywhere in the world can be read by weather satellites pretty accurately. If the CCP were to spread false temperature readings via news etc, the jig would be up pretty quickly due to temperature reports from outside of China. That said the CCP is certainly downplaying the severity of the climate crisis in China, this is to be expected and can be seen 1st hand by the lack of reporting on the subject from the major pro CCP and Xi Jinping news outlets:
BTW these 'news' sites are actually hilarious, the level of 'Wonderful leader, China is the greatest' combined with 'poor China, we are victims, USA is the worst' is cracked.
The nude unashamed propaganda maw, unmoved by mere facts, propelled by its own truth holds the people high, high aloft in dreams of unique success. It feeds them, clothes them and nurses them with but one aim alone; complete control of humanity through the historical narrative. There in utopian embraces it shackles us, only to unceremoniously devour and shit us out once we behold its eyes, its gargantuan lust for docile minds. And there in the death-muck we warn you; none are immune to its allure.
“There is nothing in world climatic history which is even minimally comparable to what is happening in China.”
Yeah. There are also news of people painting grass, bushes, quarries and mountain sides (with green oil paint no less) as well as rolling camo netting down the hills and stapling fake leaves on the trees to pretend everything is fine...
It really paints a bleak picture. Especially now with extended and stricter lockdowns (to the point where they don't let people evacuate during earthquakes) it all seems like China is visibly falling apart at the seams while simultaneously trying to project the image of strength.
A fellow Pole and a DoomTrooper/WarZone fan? What are the chances?
In any case, right now it looks like China with all the problems is doubling down on authoritarian stuff and cracking down on their people even more. If all this continues they might end up like North Korea - completely isolating themselves from the rest of the world.
I wonder if people in China even remember how to rise up though. They've been oppressed and brainwashed for so long and survived so many atrocities under this government that I don't really know what's their breaking point. If Great Chinese Famine (caused by the government) where tens of millions of people died didn't sway people it's hard to imagine what would.
yeah i find it difficult to see a genuine uprising from within the same way i dont see one happening in north korea. submission to the government is pretty much all theyve ever known. actual protesters would probably leave the country sooner than attempt to revolt against it
On October 05 2022 04:27 Manit0u wrote: A fellow Pole and a DoomTrooper/WarZone fan? What are the chances?
In any case, right now it looks like China with all the problems is doubling down on authoritarian stuff and cracking down on their people even more. If all this continues they might end up like North Korea - completely isolating themselves from the rest of the world.
For a fellow Pole pretty good, Doom Trooper/ Warzone fan somewhat slim .
Most in this thread seem to assume that Chinese people are unhappy with status quo. Few seemingly Chinese people posting here seemed to think otherwise (apologies if I missed someone who claimed otherwise).
If I were to take a guess I would say that it seems, like people are struggling with the concept that people living differently can be fine. Add to it fact that entire country seems to be successful and it is no surprise that people feel uncomfortable.
Last paragraph is purely guess and so I may be wrong.
On October 05 2022 04:27 Manit0u wrote: A fellow Pole and a DoomTrooper/WarZone fan? What are the chances?
In any case, right now it looks like China with all the problems is doubling down on authoritarian stuff and cracking down on their people even more. If all this continues they might end up like North Korea - completely isolating themselves from the rest of the world.
For a fellow Pole pretty good, Doom Trooper/ Warzone fan somewhat slim
Not as slim as one might have thought. I too played Doomtrooper/Warzone/Mutant Chronicles
On October 05 2022 04:27 Manit0u wrote: A fellow Pole and a DoomTrooper/WarZone fan? What are the chances?
In any case, right now it looks like China with all the problems is doubling down on authoritarian stuff and cracking down on their people even more. If all this continues they might end up like North Korea - completely isolating themselves from the rest of the world.
For a fellow Pole pretty good, Doom Trooper/ Warzone fan somewhat slim
Not as slim as one might have thought. I too played Doomtrooper/Warzone/Mutant Chronicles
The name "Razyda" would indicate Mutant Chronicles or Kult universum. It was not a complete shot in the dark on my part when it comes to favorite games.
On October 05 2022 04:27 Manit0u wrote: A fellow Pole and a DoomTrooper/WarZone fan? What are the chances?
In any case, right now it looks like China with all the problems is doubling down on authoritarian stuff and cracking down on their people even more. If all this continues they might end up like North Korea - completely isolating themselves from the rest of the world.
For a fellow Pole pretty good, Doom Trooper/ Warzone fan somewhat slim .
Most in this thread seem to assume that Chinese people are unhappy with status quo. Few seemingly Chinese people posting here seemed to think otherwise (apologies if I missed someone who claimed otherwise).
If I were to take a guess I would say that it seems, like people are struggling with the concept that people living differently can be fine. Add to it fact that entire country seems to be successful and it is no surprise that people feel uncomfortable.
Last paragraph is purely guess and so I may be wrong.
I didn't see that much about enjoying their lifestyle, but rather being submissive to their status quo. I enjoy my lifestyle right now, but I do think there is plenty room for change. Instead if memory serves (i am oversimplifying), most answers derived that China requires that kind of totalitarian rule.
On October 05 2022 09:44 Manit0u wrote: I wonder if people in China even remember how to rise up though. They've been oppressed and brainwashed for so long and survived so many atrocities under this government that I don't really know what's their breaking point. If Great Chinese Famine (caused by the government) where tens of millions of people died didn't sway people it's hard to imagine what would.
No body has revolted in the world like the Chinese have revolted. Great famines in the past has caused revolts but now people have cars factory jobs and education. You can't put the genie back into the bottle when it comes to giving people mountain dew if you know what I mean.
China seems to ignore international laws. Members of the consulate in the UK tore down protester's signs, dragged them into embassy borders and started beating them up. They had to be saved by the UK policemen.
On October 20 2022 01:19 JimmiC wrote: I hate the fashion and clothing industries. I do not get how they seem to escape the scrunity of other industries when the profit they make is so extreme and they do it off the backs of slave labour while poluting the world.
China is the main contributor, apparently they need some unions because for a country that claims to be run by the people it sure treats their workers awfully. Im not even sure if these are the worst jobs in the country which is a scary thought.
And the worst is that 80% of those clothes are completely useless. People just buy far too many clothes. Then these clothes sit in closets for a few years until being thrown away.
On October 20 2022 01:19 JimmiC wrote: I hate the fashion and clothing industries. I do not get how they seem to escape the scrunity of other industries when the profit they make is so extreme and they do it off the backs of slave labour while poluting the world.
China is the main contributor, apparently they need some unions because for a country that claims to be run by the people it sure treats their workers awfully. Im not even sure if these are the worst jobs in the country which is a scary thought.
And the worst is that 80% of those clothes are completely useless. People just buy far too many clothes. Then these clothes sit in closets for a few years until being thrown away.
I really hate it, I think from a personal finance stand point it is awful, from a environmental standpoint (waste, dyes, energy costs both making and shipping) it is awful, from a two few people making WAY too much money it is awful and the human impact is horrific.
I do not know why people seem to not think that it is on the level of "big banks", "big pharma", "big oil" because it is and in many ways it is worse. It provides very little benefit to people and is like 95% frivolous.
"The spice must flow" - to quote the classic. It doesn't matter how fruitless or harmful something is as long as it's raking in money and providing business opportunities.
But back to the topic of China providing much of the labor for a lot of things and their working conditions it does really go against their "communist" ideals where the working class should also be the one controlling the means of production and thus empowered.
The US is anticipating a faster timeline for China when it comes to Taiwan. The goal is probably within the next 5 years,initially anticipating 2027 and now considering 2023 or even 2022.
3 days old story. Ww3 or whatever it will be called in history books has already started. Everyone is just waiting untill the inevitable happens (with inevitable i dont mean nuclear war by the way,ww3 could be conventional). Maybe i misjudge the situation,i can only hope so.
On October 20 2022 21:26 pmh wrote: The US is anticipating a faster timeline for China when it comes to Taiwan. The goal is probably within the next 5 years,initially anticipating 2027 and now considering 2023 or even 2022.
3 days old story. Ww3 or whatever it will be called in history books has already started. Everyone is just waiting untill the inevitable happens (with inevitable i dont mean nuclear war by the way,ww3 could be conventional). Maybe i misjudge the situation,i can only hope so.
WW3 couldn’t be conventional. The only powers capable of projection on a scale needed for there to be a world war are nuclear.
On October 20 2022 21:26 pmh wrote: The US is anticipating a faster timeline for China when it comes to Taiwan. The goal is probably within the next 5 years,initially anticipating 2027 and now considering 2023 or even 2022.
3 days old story. Ww3 or whatever it will be called in history books has already started. Everyone is just waiting untill the inevitable happens (with inevitable i dont mean nuclear war by the way,ww3 could be conventional). Maybe i misjudge the situation,i can only hope so.
China attacking Taiwan in 2022 is just click bait, there is no way the PLA can attack Taiwan in 2022. The hardware are not ready, let alone software / manpower and other aspect. Fighting a real life war is not like playing RTS, no one can just press a button and expect to win.
Whether China want to attack Taiwan much earlier than 2027 is another matter. I guess it will be more to do with Russia-Ukraine war, and the chip development, and may be (if any) deal(s) with other countries. But I am no expert in this area, so I will try to refrain from commenting too much on this issue.
As for WW3, we might already be in one, given how much resources Russia, USA, NATO etc had thrown into the Russia-Ukraine war. Also, for the past few years, the USA (and its subordinates) more or less waged a full on cold war on China, all we are missing is a full scale military clash in the pacific region to formally declare WW3.
Why talk about WW3? Both Russia and the US have had terrible and recent experiences with war. China is a regime whose mandate for power lies as a guarantist for stability for a population still haunted with the chaos under Mao.
A full scale war is a threat to that stability, so they stay out of them.
On October 21 2022 00:29 Slydie wrote: Why talk about WW3? Both Russia and the US have had terrible and recent experiences with war. China is a regime whose mandate for power lies as a guarantist for stability for a population still haunted with the chaos under Mao.
A full scale war is a threat to that stability, so they stay out of them.
Yet they scream and yell about how they're going to start a war to take Taiwan. Everyone expects them to try for it in the next decade. They tell their people how they're going to take back taiwan. They make movies just like America has done for war propaganda.
The problem isn't that they don't want war its that they think the other side won't want war. They think that they'll be able to take taiwan and that the USA isn't going to honor its treaties by defending it. Just like Putin thought that he would be able to take Kyiv in 3 days and that Zelensky would flee. They think that the capitalist world order would value stable world trade over defending Taiwan.
On October 21 2022 00:29 Slydie wrote: Why talk about WW3? Both Russia and the US have had terrible and recent experiences with war. China is a regime whose mandate for power lies as a guarantist for stability for a population still haunted with the chaos under Mao.
A full scale war is a threat to that stability, so they stay out of them.
Yet they scream and yell about how they're going to start a war to take Taiwan. Everyone expects them to try for it in the next decade. They tell their people how they're going to take back taiwan. They make movies just like America has done for war propaganda.
It is the only right thing to do. Taiwan and the US are perfect distractions from dramatic domestic problems, like COVID used as a terribly expensive excuse for more surveillance and the incoming real estate collapse.
Xi Jinpings predecessor Hu Jintao got escorted out of the party congress today. In the video you can see he doesn't want to leave at all. Lots of speculation on the reason.
Take this with a mountain of salt but my guess is that Xi did this to show the party elders he won't accept any interference and to get rid of a rival faction.
Chinese former President Hu Jintao was unexpectedly escorted out of the closing ceremony of a congress of the ruling Communist Party on Saturday.
Hu, 79, Xi Jinping's immediate predecessor, was seated to the left of Xi. He was led off the stage of the main auditorium of the Great Hall of the People in Beijing by two stewards, a Reuters witness at the congress said.
Video footage published by AFP showed a steward repeatedly trying to lift Hu from his seat, drawing concerned looks from officials seated nearby. Hu then put his hand on a sheet of paper placed on Xi's folder but Xi quickly put his hand on the sheet.
The new Politburo standing committee is introduced. Key takeaways: - No clear successor to Xi - Only Xi loyalists - All the relative moderates are out and the conservatives / hardliners are left.
BEIJING, Oct 23 (Reuters) - China's Xi Jinping secured a precedent-breaking third leadership term on Sunday and introduced a new top governing body stacked with loyalists, cementing his place as the country's most powerful ruler since Mao Zedong.
Shanghai Communist Party chief Li Qiang, 63, followed Xi onto the stage at the Great Hall of the People as the new Politburo Standing Committee was introduced, putting him in line to succeed Li Keqiang as premier when he retires in
The other members of the seven-man Standing Committee are Zhao Leji and Wang Huning, who return from the previous committee, and newcomers Cai Qi, Ding Xuexiang and Li Xi. Li Qiang is also new to the Standing Committee.
All are seen by analysts to have close allegiance to Xi, 69, the son of a Communist Party revolutionary who has taken China in a more authoritarian direction since rising to power in 2012.
"This is a leadership that will be focused on achieving Xi’s political goals, rather than pursuing their own agendas for what they think is best for the country," said Drew Thompson, a visiting senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore’s Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy. "There is only one correct way to govern, and that is Xi’s way."
The unveiling of the Standing Committee and the larger 24-member Politburo comes a day after the closing of the ruling Communist Party's 20th Congress, where amendments were added to the party charter cementing the core status of Xi and the guiding role of his political thought within the party.
...
CONSPICUOUS ABSENCES
The unveiling comes a day after Li Keqiang and Wang Yang, seen by analysts as relative moderates that were young enough to serve longer in top decision-making bodies, were excluded from the wider Central Committee. Both have ties with the Communist Youth League, a once-influential group that experts say has lost power under Xi.
Another conspicuous absence from Sunday's unveiling was Hu Chunhua, a vice premier who had been considered by some party-watchers as a candidate for the premiership and who also has Youth League roots. Hu, 59, was not chosen to return to the Politburo, which now has 24 members, one fewer than usual.
Also missing from the Politburo: any women. The lone woman on the last Politburo, Sun Chunlan, retired.
Recently there have been plenty of violent protests regarding the 0 COVID policy, with people being outraged at all the lockdowns and other bullshit. It seems that now it has reached the tipping point where people of China have had enough. They were really stumped when they saw footage from the World Cup with thousands of cheering fans, none of whom were wearing masks etc. It went against everything the CCP were telling them, that everywhere outside of China people are suffering horribly due to COVID and only China is safe due to their strict policies. It probably wasn't the main contributor but I would assume that it could provide this one more spark that tipped the scales.
Anyway, all across China there are now protests that are unprecedented since Tiananmen square, where people are for the first time attacking the Chinese government directly, shouting for Xi Jinping to step down, CCP to go eff itself etc. Government officials are being abducted from the government buildings, police stations are being torn down, people are in the streets everywhere, from big cities like Shanghai and Beijing to even small towns all across China. Police and PLA (army) have been deployed to quell the protests.
This is absolutely massive. I wonder how it'll develop but we need to keep a close eye on it.
Recently there have been plenty of violent protests regarding the 0 COVID policy, with people being outraged at all the lockdowns and other bullshit. It seems that now it has reached the tipping point where people of China have had enough. They were really stumped when they saw footage from the World Cup with thousands of cheering fans, none of whom were wearing masks etc. It went against everything the CCP were telling them, that everywhere outside of China people are suffering horribly due to COVID and only China is safe due to their strict policies. It probably wasn't the main contributor but I would assume that it could provide this one more spark that tipped the scales.
Anyway, all across China there are now protests that are unprecedented since Tiananmen square, where people are for the first time attacking the Chinese government directly, shouting for Xi Jinping to step down, CCP to go eff itself etc. Government officials are being abducted from the government buildings, police stations are being torn down, people are in the streets everywhere, from big cities like Shanghai and Beijing to even small towns all across China. Police and PLA (army) have been deployed to quell the protests.
This is absolutely massive. I wonder how it'll develop but we need to keep a close eye on it.
Well, lies and deception can only get them so far. However, I'm pessimistic that anything substantial will come out of this. Communists are known for brutality, so they'll likely crack down on protests.
On November 27 2022 22:09 xM(Z wrote: they showed (couple)hundreds of people max? ...; where are the tens(hundreds, upper estimates) of thousands to rival Tienanmen?.
You have to keep in mind that this all pretty much started today/yesterday. Couple of hundred of people protesting in dozens of places all across the country gives you thousands in total. We'll have to wait and see, it's probably not that easy to get an accurate footage from China anyway, especially if what they're saying is true in that the police are bringing jammers to the scene, disabling people's phones so no footage or messages can be shared. And that's on top of their standard censoring and filtration.
In any case, hundreds of people in all the major cities and in smaller towns too is no small protest.
On November 27 2022 22:09 xM(Z wrote: they showed (couple)hundreds of people max? ...; where are the tens(hundreds, upper estimates) of thousands to rival Tienanmen?.
Yes, people forget that the pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong had more than two million participants back in mid 2019. Oddly enough, COVID-19 kicking off in early 2020 was the thing that stopped those huge protests in their tracks. Hong Kong is in a far worse state now than it was three years ago sadly.
They will blame the protests for spreading the virus, everyone knows the playbook by now.Hopefully the protesters don't get taken to those huge quarantine camps they've constructed, who knows what will happen.
So, most people don't know but there's been horrific flooding in China this past weekend. Beijing was swallowed by water, bridges collapsing and even the Forbidden City has been flooded for the first time in 140 years.
Footage coming out from there is absolutely horrifying. CCP states that there are 27 people missing and 11 killed or something ridiculous like that but judging from the snippets I think the casualties are definitely in the thousands if not millions. Beijing is a city of 22 million people and when you have flood water come in as high as 6m, considering their poor drainage and taking into account past floods where thousands of people died just from being in the underground tunnel in their car the fallout from this will be massive. There are pictures of submarines being thrown onto the shore, whole trucks and busses being swept by water and other nightmares like that. I don't even want to think what happened in the metro and underground tunnels this time around...
Millions of people displaced as numerous villages get flooded. Some of them got flooded on purpose as they were used to discharge water from Beijing.
I do wonder what might be the fallout after it's all over. So many families without homes, food shortages, sickness... I'm also trying to dig up some reports on how crops might've been affected because it'll be harvest season soon and if a lot of crops have been destroyed it might be a very harsh year for China.
The Social Credit system that is often fear mongered about in Western media is just that: fear mongering.
In a new video by Ed, popular myths about China’s social credit “system” are debunked, and clarity is given to its actual origins and nature. Revealing that it is not top-down, authoritarian, or invasive, but is instead a popular reform supported by the people to reign in illegal and poor business practices. Breaking down the popular, local, and decentralized way in which social credit works in China. Showing that continuous feedback from the people informs the way in which social credit works in any given province.
On August 08 2023 10:37 captainwaffles wrote: The Social Credit system that is often fear mongered about in Western media is just that: fear mongering.
In a new video by Ed, popular myths about China’s social credit “system” are debunked, and clarity is given to its actual origins and nature. Revealing that it is not top-down, authoritarian, or invasive, but is instead a popular reform supported by the people to reign in illegal and poor business practices. Breaking down the popular, local, and decentralized way in which social credit works in China. Showing that continuous feedback from the people informs the way in which social credit works in any given province.
I'm not sure I'd trust a channel that has videos like "The Democratic Legacy of Stalin" and "Proof that Stalin and Mao were libertarians". Dude even describes himself as libertarian stalinist, which is mind-boggling to say the least.
If you want to see an objective evaluation of the freedom Chinese people experience in their own country, just take a quick look at the freedom rating China receives on Freedom House and compare it to other countries. In 2022, China ranks 9/100 while Germany ranks 94/100 and the US ranks 83/100. This low score for China results from a (NEGATIVE!!!) -2/40 score on political rights and 11/60 on civil liberties.
Can China Survive US Sanctions? In today's video Cyrus breaks down the latest moves in the microchip industry. China is flooding the microchip market with billions of dollars of legacy chips that could be a complete game changer and change the way the US sanctions China.
On August 09 2023 08:28 KwarK wrote: Unironically posting a youtube video with the title GAME OVER! China Just Destroyed US Sanctions. US CEOs In Shock!
How embarrassing it must be to be you.
It seems really surprising. Account with >1k posts and all the posts in this thread seem to be just bot-generated stuff with YT video and its description/synopsis if you can even call it that (headline more like it?).
It's an account created 14 years ago and it doesn't really match old posting history (with the exception of recent postings in all the politics threads but that makes me think the account was taken over by a bot or something).
On August 09 2023 08:28 KwarK wrote: Unironically posting a youtube video with the title GAME OVER! China Just Destroyed US Sanctions. US CEOs In Shock!
How embarrassing it must be to be you.
It seems really surprising. Account with >1k posts and all the posts in this thread seem to be just bot-generated stuff with YT video and its description/synopsis if you can even call it that (headline more like it?).
It's an account created 14 years ago and it doesn't really match old posting history (with the exception of recent postings in all the politics threads but that makes me think the account was taken over by a bot or something).
Yeah, I said in my first post back, I was feeling nostalgic about Starcraft, I've been playing a bit again over the last month, and of course, I came back to TL.
There's a 5 year gap in my posting history from when I last posted regularly, mostly just to promote my stream.
What happened in that 5 year span, did my account get usurped by the scary Asiatic menace? Or, more likely, did I just evolve and change my views over time when presented with new information?
Since you want to play detective, you can see my last blog post from 2018 about the US's occupation in the middle east, funny you didn't mention that.
If you want to say I should be banned for having differing views, then just say so. You don't need to make shit up about my account being jacked by Russian or Chinese agents.
On August 09 2023 08:28 KwarK wrote: Unironically posting a youtube video with the title GAME OVER! China Just Destroyed US Sanctions. US CEOs In Shock!
How embarrassing it must be to be you.
It seems really surprising. Account with >1k posts and all the posts in this thread seem to be just bot-generated stuff with YT video and its description/synopsis if you can even call it that (headline more like it?).
It's an account created 14 years ago and it doesn't really match old posting history (with the exception of recent postings in all the politics threads but that makes me think the account was taken over by a bot or something).
Yeah, I said in my first post back, I was feeling nostalgic about Starcraft, I've been playing a bit again over the last month, and of course, I came back to TL.
There's a 5 year gap in my posting history from when I last posted regularly, mostly just to promote my stream.
What happened in that 5 year span, did my account get usurped by the scary Asiatic menace? Or, more likely, did I just evolve and change my views over time when presented with new information?
Since you want to play detective, you can see my last blog post from 2018 about the US's occupation in the middle east, funny you didn't mention that.
If you want to say I should be banned for having differing views, then just say so. You don't need to make shit up about my account being jacked by Russian or Chinese agents.
There's nothing wrong with having different opinion but when you see posts with just a YT video preceded by a headline from the video you begin to wonder if it's a real person behind it.
On August 09 2023 08:28 KwarK wrote: Unironically posting a youtube video with the title GAME OVER! China Just Destroyed US Sanctions. US CEOs In Shock!
How embarrassing it must be to be you.
It seems really surprising. Account with >1k posts and all the posts in this thread seem to be just bot-generated stuff with YT video and its description/synopsis if you can even call it that (headline more like it?).
It's an account created 14 years ago and it doesn't really match old posting history (with the exception of recent postings in all the politics threads but that makes me think the account was taken over by a bot or something).
Yeah, I said in my first post back, I was feeling nostalgic about Starcraft, I've been playing a bit again over the last month, and of course, I came back to TL.
There's a 5 year gap in my posting history from when I last posted regularly, mostly just to promote my stream.
What happened in that 5 year span, did my account get usurped by the scary Asiatic menace? Or, more likely, did I just evolve and change my views over time when presented with new information?
Since you want to play detective, you can see my last blog post from 2018 about the US's occupation in the middle east, funny you didn't mention that.
If you want to say I should be banned for having differing views, then just say so. You don't need to make shit up about my account being jacked by Russian or Chinese agents.
You evolved and changed your views? If by that you mean you do what every propagandist does: selectively ignore information that contradicts yours. Then yes, I agree. You did evolve and you did change your views. You became a full-blown shill for a totalitarian regime. The question people are asking is how that happened. Was it because you were radicalized and you genuinely think you're on the right side of history, or is your TL.net posting history an extension of your propaganda work on other platforms? Which one is it?
It doesn't feel like an evolved view so much as an apathetic view. There isn't value in trying to re-educate anyone, it feels more like having a novel opinion in this space and being immune to meaningful consequences of that opinion by virtue of circumstance.
It's just 'edgy teen' but presumably an adult now.
This is extremely sad if it's true. So many people left without homes, food and water. It'll take at least a month for the water to subside in some areas (if it doesn't get worse beforehand as there's new wave of rains incoming) and in the meantime relief supplies are being held up instead of being delivered to the victims as the government wants to distribute everything centrally. It seems that in many places rescue operations haven't even begun and people have been trapped for days...
This is going to be a massive humanitarian crisis just from the people directly affected by the flood but considering the amount of crops being destroyed and drought earlier this year there's potentially famine looming on the horizon. This is really bad news, we have to remember that during the last famine in China under Mao nearly 40 million people died of starvation.
If one wants to be an edgy contrarian soyboy and go against the grain in order to stand out, there are certainly better ways to do it than being a pro-putin or winnie the xi ccp lover. Like going full nazi akin to the kkk or proud boy seditionists for example. Although there seems to be too many nazi posers these days, so one has to do something more drastic now in order to really stand out. Like driving a vehicle into a crowd of people or something. Yea, that’ll get you in the news.
On August 11 2023 04:11 Manit0u wrote: This is going to be a massive humanitarian crisis just from the people directly affected by the flood but considering the amount of crops being destroyed and drought earlier this year there's potentially famine looming on the horizon. This is really bad news, we have to remember that during the last famine in China under Mao nearly 40 million people died of starvation.
While I'm not trying to understate the significance of agricultural consequences and a potential famine, I think comparing this flooding to the man made disaster of The Great Leap Forward is fairly nonsensical and sensationalist?
On August 11 2023 04:11 Manit0u wrote: This is going to be a massive humanitarian crisis just from the people directly affected by the flood but considering the amount of crops being destroyed and drought earlier this year there's potentially famine looming on the horizon. This is really bad news, we have to remember that during the last famine in China under Mao nearly 40 million people died of starvation.
While I'm not trying to understate the significance of agricultural consequences and a potential famine, I think comparing this flooding to the man made disaster of The Great Leap Forward is fairly nonsensical and sensationalist?
Part of this is also a man-made disaster. Even if we disregard intentional flooding of nearby settlements to save Xi's precious vanity project (a super modern and expensive city district that's essentially a ghost town since no one wants to live there and no businesses want to move there) there's still a matter of dubious decisions that were made earlier in the year.
Due to serious drought at the beginning of the year they were afraid there won't be enough crops to feed everyone so they started cutting down forests in the mountains (same forests that they were planting previously) and turning them into rice paddies. The problem with that is two-fold: for one those newly created terraces aren't the most sturdy thing as they didn't have time to settle properly and the second problem is that now you lost your natural protection from rainfall and mud slides in the form of forests.
Sure, typhoon that came over the province is a natural disaster, but it is their rainy season and predictably all the new rice paddies on bare mountain tops got washed away and flooded the lower areas, destroying what meager crop was left there after the drought. Now they don't have their regular crops nor the new crops they were hoping for.
I sure hope I am completely wrong in my reasoning here but from the videos of protesting farmers begging for help this doesn't look good at all.
If we also take into account the fact that the rains have barely just begun, the water from the flood needs a month to subside, thousands of people were displaced and in a month or two is their harvest season the picture is pretty bleak. Keep in mind that provinces affected by the flood are the ones responsible for majority of their agriculture.
Edit:
According to the National Disaster Risk Reduction Management Council (NDRRMC) 675,357 families, equivalent to 2,476,907 persons, have been directly impacted. Among the affected population, 15,566 families constituting 57,281 individuals sought refuge within 763 evacuation centres, while 62,825 families compromising 260,694 persons were served outside the evacuation centres. The casualties are reported as 26 deceased individuals, 52 injured persons and 13 missing. The infrastructure and transportation systems in the affected areas have sustained significant damage: 397 road sections and 33 bridges have been affected, impeding transportation, and posing challenges to the movement of people and transportation of goods. The power supply was disrupted in 306 cities/municipalities. A total of 38,855 houses have been reported as damaged.
More than 50,000 people have been evacuated from the capital and 42,000 people from Shanxi Province, and approximately 125,000 people have been moved to shelters in Zhuozhou City (Hebei Province). In addition, more than 150,000 people were reported to be without running water and nearly 60,000 were affected by power outages.
If those are the official numbers (seems so judging by the number of fatalities/missing persons since there are videos of people begging for help as they can't find dozens of their own family members) we probably can't even imagine what the real numbers are...
Good article from Bradley Blankership in RT today about how the media shapes the public's view of China, something that's self evident with the kind of posts I see in this thread; key takeaways below:
Self-reinforcing propaganda: A new poll shows people dislike China, but there’s a catch
Anti-Beijing pundits see no irony in the fact that their cartoonish views have actually rubbed off on the public
> According to the views gathered from 27,000 adults, 67% of respondents have unfavorable views of the Asian country, while only 28% have favorable opinions. China observers in the West are blaming Beijing’s perceived threat and so-called ‘wolf warrior diplomacy’, but these takes are painfully ironic.
> That last point is the most obvious criticism of the Pew report. The agency polled adults in 24 countries; there are 193 United Nations member states, which indicates that it does not show any serious global trend purely based on its methodology. There is also a strong selection bias for high-income countries and American allies. However, some middle-income and poorer countries were polled and the data reveals what many know to be true – the Global South largely has favorable views of China.
> For example, the Pew survey found that countries such as Kenya (72%), Nigeria (80%) and Mexico (57%) hold favorable views of China, with India being an exception that has more negative views of China. Since poorer countries are the beneficiaries of bilateral cooperation with China, including on the Beijing-led Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), it is natural that they would have a higher opinion of Beijing. Pew, however, mostly did not select countries with high-level strategic cooperation with Beijing.
> But aside from this opportunistic cynicism on Covid-19, there has been a steady downward trend fully in line with American foreign policy, e.g., after 2012 with former President Barack Obama’s ‘Pivot to Asia’, the Trump trade war, and whatever it is that the current administration of President Joe Biden is doing. The US national security state has exploited deep ideological biases in the media and is bankrolling countless think tanks, non-governmental organizations, and academic programs to churn out constant anti-China propaganda.
On August 11 2023 14:06 captainwaffles wrote: Good article from Bradley Blankership in RT today about how the media shapes the public's view of China, something that's self evident with the kind of posts I see in this thread; key takeaways below:
Self-reinforcing propaganda: A new poll shows people dislike China, but there’s a catch
Anti-Beijing pundits see no irony in the fact that their cartoonish views have actually rubbed off on the public
> According to the views gathered from 27,000 adults, 67% of respondents have unfavorable views of the Asian country, while only 28% have favorable opinions. China observers in the West are blaming Beijing’s perceived threat and so-called ‘wolf warrior diplomacy’, but these takes are painfully ironic.
> That last point is the most obvious criticism of the Pew report. The agency polled adults in 24 countries; there are 193 United Nations member states, which indicates that it does not show any serious global trend purely based on its methodology. There is also a strong selection bias for high-income countries and American allies. However, some middle-income and poorer countries were polled and the data reveals what many know to be true – the Global South largely has favorable views of China.
> For example, the Pew survey found that countries such as Kenya (72%), Nigeria (80%) and Mexico (57%) hold favorable views of China, with India being an exception that has more negative views of China. Since poorer countries are the beneficiaries of bilateral cooperation with China, including on the Beijing-led Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), it is natural that they would have a higher opinion of Beijing. Pew, however, mostly did not select countries with high-level strategic cooperation with Beijing.
> But aside from this opportunistic cynicism on Covid-19, there has been a steady downward trend fully in line with American foreign policy, e.g., after 2012 with former President Barack Obama’s ‘Pivot to Asia’, the Trump trade war, and whatever it is that the current administration of President Joe Biden is doing. The US national security state has exploited deep ideological biases in the media and is bankrolling countless think tanks, non-governmental organizations, and academic programs to churn out constant anti-China propaganda.
You can't really take poor African countries views as indicators here. China is doing a lot of investment there and using corrupt governments to for example build roads in exchange for mining rights on precious metals and gems.
I was talking to some friends from RSA and Zimbabwe and generally it's pretty much useless to ask about the public opinion there or the official one for that matter. Most governments in Africa are terribly corrupt and easily swayed (it blew my mind when RSA's foreign minister response to the potential terrorist threat was that they're not worried because ISIS, Al-Quaeda and such have training camps in their country so they're safe - at this point I'd be worried about USA taking note). As for the general population one of the biggest problems in Africa is very poor education levels. Most of them have no idea what's going on in their own country and asking them about broader geo-politics is futile.
But it's clear to see all over the globe really. Most poorer countries where China has made investments due to the Belt & Road initiative for example are now in some deep crisis and facing bankruptcy. The only beneficiary of those "bilateral" investments is China.
On August 11 2023 14:06 captainwaffles wrote: Good article from Bradley Blankership in RT today about how the media shapes the public's view of China, something that's self evident with the kind of posts I see in this thread; key takeaways below:
Self-reinforcing propaganda: A new poll shows people dislike China, but there’s a catch
Anti-Beijing pundits see no irony in the fact that their cartoonish views have actually rubbed off on the public
> According to the views gathered from 27,000 adults, 67% of respondents have unfavorable views of the Asian country, while only 28% have favorable opinions. China observers in the West are blaming Beijing’s perceived threat and so-called ‘wolf warrior diplomacy’, but these takes are painfully ironic.
> That last point is the most obvious criticism of the Pew report. The agency polled adults in 24 countries; there are 193 United Nations member states, which indicates that it does not show any serious global trend purely based on its methodology. There is also a strong selection bias for high-income countries and American allies. However, some middle-income and poorer countries were polled and the data reveals what many know to be true – the Global South largely has favorable views of China.
> For example, the Pew survey found that countries such as Kenya (72%), Nigeria (80%) and Mexico (57%) hold favorable views of China, with India being an exception that has more negative views of China. Since poorer countries are the beneficiaries of bilateral cooperation with China, including on the Beijing-led Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), it is natural that they would have a higher opinion of Beijing. Pew, however, mostly did not select countries with high-level strategic cooperation with Beijing.
> But aside from this opportunistic cynicism on Covid-19, there has been a steady downward trend fully in line with American foreign policy, e.g., after 2012 with former President Barack Obama’s ‘Pivot to Asia’, the Trump trade war, and whatever it is that the current administration of President Joe Biden is doing. The US national security state has exploited deep ideological biases in the media and is bankrolling countless think tanks, non-governmental organizations, and academic programs to churn out constant anti-China propaganda.
On August 11 2023 18:38 Manit0u wrote: You can't really take poor African countries views as indicators here. China is doing a lot of investment there and using corrupt governments to for example build roads in exchange for mining rights on precious metals and gems.
I was talking to some friends from RSA and Zimbabwe and generally it's pretty much useless to ask about the public opinion there or the official one for that matter. Most governments in Africa are terribly corrupt and easily swayed (it blew my mind when RSA's foreign minister response to the potential terrorist threat was that they're not worried because ISIS, Al-Quaeda and such have training camps in their country so they're safe - at this point I'd be worried about USA taking note). As for the general population one of the biggest problems in Africa is very poor education levels. Most of them have no idea what's going on in their own country and asking them about broader geo-politics is futile.
But it's clear to see all over the globe really. Most poorer countries where China has made investments due to the Belt & Road initiative for example are now in some deep crisis and facing bankruptcy. The only beneficiary of those "bilateral" investments is China.
Yeah, them poor people in third world don't know what's good for them and have no agency of their own, if they knew better they'd stick with white man's imperialism. /s
Sarcasm aside, even Western scholars generally agree that despite its numerous flaws and challenges, Belt and Road Initiative is generally successful and continues to expand because it's seen as a superior alternative to IMF and other Western-led initiatives; even developed European nations are signing up to participate in BRI or BRI-related projects -- yet mainstream media in the West continues to drone on about 'Chinese debt traps' and folks on social media everywhere continues to parrot those completely nonsensical statements.
There's absolutely a huge amount of negative bias on anything concerning China in Western press these days, doesn't take a 'tankie' to see that really.
On August 11 2023 18:38 Manit0u wrote: You can't really take poor African countries views as indicators here. China is doing a lot of investment there and using corrupt governments to for example build roads in exchange for mining rights on precious metals and gems.
I was talking to some friends from RSA and Zimbabwe and generally it's pretty much useless to ask about the public opinion there or the official one for that matter. Most governments in Africa are terribly corrupt and easily swayed (it blew my mind when RSA's foreign minister response to the potential terrorist threat was that they're not worried because ISIS, Al-Quaeda and such have training camps in their country so they're safe - at this point I'd be worried about USA taking note). As for the general population one of the biggest problems in Africa is very poor education levels. Most of them have no idea what's going on in their own country and asking them about broader geo-politics is futile.
But it's clear to see all over the globe really. Most poorer countries where China has made investments due to the Belt & Road initiative for example are now in some deep crisis and facing bankruptcy. The only beneficiary of those "bilateral" investments is China.
Yeah, them poor people in third world don't know what's good for them and have no agency of their own, if they knew better they'd stick with white man's imperialism. /s
Sarcasm aside, even Western scholars generally agree that despite its numerous flaws and challenges, Belt and Road Initiative is generally successful and continues to expand because it's seen as a superior alternative to IMF and other Western-led initiatives; even developed European nations are signing up to participate in BRI or BRI-related projects -- yet mainstream media in the West continues to drone on about 'Chinese debt traps' and folks on social media everywhere continues to parrot those completely nonsensical statements.
Wasn’t Italy one of the first and are they not trying to get out of it because it was not what they thought?
Italy is looking to back out, meanwhile Ireland, Denmark, and I think it was Portugal? are looking for closer cooperation. Poland, Greece, Croatia, and some other countries that I can't remember names of in Eastern Europe are participating as well.
On August 11 2023 18:38 Manit0u wrote: You can't really take poor African countries views as indicators here. China is doing a lot of investment there and using corrupt governments to for example build roads in exchange for mining rights on precious metals and gems.
I was talking to some friends from RSA and Zimbabwe and generally it's pretty much useless to ask about the public opinion there or the official one for that matter. Most governments in Africa are terribly corrupt and easily swayed (it blew my mind when RSA's foreign minister response to the potential terrorist threat was that they're not worried because ISIS, Al-Quaeda and such have training camps in their country so they're safe - at this point I'd be worried about USA taking note). As for the general population one of the biggest problems in Africa is very poor education levels. Most of them have no idea what's going on in their own country and asking them about broader geo-politics is futile.
But it's clear to see all over the globe really. Most poorer countries where China has made investments due to the Belt & Road initiative for example are now in some deep crisis and facing bankruptcy. The only beneficiary of those "bilateral" investments is China.
Yeah, them poor people in third world don't know what's good for them and have no agency of their own, if they knew better they'd stick with white man's imperialism. /s
Sarcasm aside, even Western scholars generally agree that despite its numerous flaws and challenges, Belt and Road Initiative is generally successful and continues to expand because it's seen as a superior alternative to IMF and other Western-led initiatives; even developed European nations are signing up to participate in BRI or BRI-related projects -- yet mainstream media in the West continues to drone on about 'Chinese debt traps' and folks on social media everywhere continues to parrot those completely nonsensical statements.
Wasn’t Italy one of the first and are they not trying to get out of it because it was not what they thought?
Italy is looking to back out, meanwhile Ireland, Denmark, and I think it was Portugal? are looking for closer cooperation. Poland, Greece, Croatia, and some other countries that I can't remember names of in Eastern Europe are participating as well.
Sure, there are some higher profile countries involved in BRI but you can't ignore the fact that vast majority of countries involved in those projects are also topping the economic decline index. Just checked it myself and out of top 30 hardest tanking economies 27 are part of BRI (didn't bother to check the entire decline index).
According to economics articles foreign debt is quite often one of the most impactful factors in killing low income/developing countries' economies.
On August 11 2023 18:38 Manit0u wrote: You can't really take poor African countries views as indicators here. China is doing a lot of investment there and using corrupt governments to for example build roads in exchange for mining rights on precious metals and gems.
I was talking to some friends from RSA and Zimbabwe and generally it's pretty much useless to ask about the public opinion there or the official one for that matter. Most governments in Africa are terribly corrupt and easily swayed (it blew my mind when RSA's foreign minister response to the potential terrorist threat was that they're not worried because ISIS, Al-Quaeda and such have training camps in their country so they're safe - at this point I'd be worried about USA taking note). As for the general population one of the biggest problems in Africa is very poor education levels. Most of them have no idea what's going on in their own country and asking them about broader geo-politics is futile.
But it's clear to see all over the globe really. Most poorer countries where China has made investments due to the Belt & Road initiative for example are now in some deep crisis and facing bankruptcy. The only beneficiary of those "bilateral" investments is China.
Yeah, them poor people in third world don't know what's good for them and have no agency of their own, if they knew better they'd stick with white man's imperialism. /s
Sarcasm aside, even Western scholars generally agree that despite its numerous flaws and challenges, Belt and Road Initiative is generally successful and continues to expand because it's seen as a superior alternative to IMF and other Western-led initiatives; even developed European nations are signing up to participate in BRI or BRI-related projects -- yet mainstream media in the West continues to drone on about 'Chinese debt traps' and folks on social media everywhere continues to parrot those completely nonsensical statements.
Wasn’t Italy one of the first and are they not trying to get out of it because it was not what they thought?
Italy is looking to back out, meanwhile Ireland, Denmark, and I think it was Portugal? are looking for closer cooperation. Poland, Greece, Croatia, and some other countries that I can't remember names of in Eastern Europe are participating as well.
Sure, there are some higher profile countries involved in BRI but you can't ignore the fact that vast majority of countries involved in those projects are also topping the economic decline index. Just checked it myself and out of top 30 hardest tanking economies 27 are part of BRI (didn't bother to check the entire decline index).
According to economics articles foreign debt is quite often one of the most impactful factors in killing low income/developing countries' economies.
150 countries out of the world's 195 are associated with BRI at least in some way. Not exactly surprising that majority of whatever list you can think of would be chiefly populated by BRI-associated countries, lol.
If you want to discuss the harm, economic or otherwise, that Chinese-led initiatives are causing somewhere, let's talk specifics, with examples and numbers; otherwise you're just walking proof of the anti-Chinese bias in the Western world.
You could start with yourself instead of doing the classic bad faith "You need to bring something to the table for me" argument. Do you want to elaborate on why the BRI isn't Neocolonialism via debt trap? You can't just handwave arguments, bring nothing to discuss, and then expect other people to find you even remotely persuading.
China loans nations money to pay Chinese companies to build things in exchange for Chinese companies getting rights to those nations economic assets. These loans are at a higher interest than IMF loans in order to force nations to negotiate down the road to reorganize these loans in order to acquire more economic assets from the debtor company.
On August 12 2023 13:28 Sermokala wrote: You could start with yourself instead of doing the classic bad faith "You need to bring something to the table for me" argument. Do you want to elaborate on why the BRI isn't Neocolonialism via debt trap? You can't just handwave arguments, bring nothing to discuss, and then expect other people to find you even remotely persuading.
China loans nations money to pay Chinese companies to build things in exchange for Chinese companies getting rights to those nations economic assets. These loans are at a higher interest than IMF loans in order to force nations to negotiate down the road to reorganize these loans in order to acquire more economic assets from the debtor company.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Personally, I think implying that everybody in Africa is so corrupt and uneducated that they simply don't know what's good for them is kind of racist and has no basis in reality, so there's not much discussion to be had about that, but what do I know, I've only been running a nonprofit in Kenya for 8 years.
As for Chinese companies taking over national economic assets... I mean, that's just not what actually happens, in Africa or anywhere else, so I'm not sure what do you want me to discuss here.
As far as I'm concerned, handwaving is happening from the 'China bad!' side of the argument, because try as I might, I just don't see any real evidence for China 'debt trapping' countries and taking over their stuff. Some concessions happen, which is pretty natural considering the absolutely massive scope of the initiative and the number of actors involved. But it doesn't seem to be happening on such a scale or so regularly that one could claim they're organizing asset take overs via bad loans.
On August 12 2023 13:28 Sermokala wrote: You could start with yourself instead of doing the classic bad faith "You need to bring something to the table for me" argument. Do you want to elaborate on why the BRI isn't Neocolonialism via debt trap? You can't just handwave arguments, bring nothing to discuss, and then expect other people to find you even remotely persuading.
China loans nations money to pay Chinese companies to build things in exchange for Chinese companies getting rights to those nations economic assets. These loans are at a higher interest than IMF loans in order to force nations to negotiate down the road to reorganize these loans in order to acquire more economic assets from the debtor company.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Personally, I think implying that everybody in Africa is so corrupt and uneducated that they simply don't know what's good for them is kind of racist and has no basis in reality, so there's not much discussion to be had about that, but what do I know, I've only been running a nonprofit in Kenya for 8 years.
As for Chinese companies taking over national economic assets... I mean, that's just not what actually happens, in Africa or anywhere else, so I'm not sure what do you want me to discuss here.
As far as I'm concerned, handwaving is happening from the 'China bad!' side of the argument, because try as I might, I just don't see any real evidence for China 'debt trapping' countries and taking over their stuff. Some concessions happen, which is pretty natural considering the absolutely massive scope of the initiative and the number of actors involved. But it doesn't seem to be happening on such a scale or so regularly that one could claim they're organizing asset take overs via bad loans.
Yeah if you're not going to argue in good faith and engage with anything I said I'm not going to keep replying to you.
You asked me to elaborate why China isn't a neocolonialist empire using debt traps to steal other nation's economic assets then insisted that 'you can't just handwave arguments and bring nothing to discuss' (which is kind of ironic in itself since neither you nor the person I first replied to provided any real backing whatsoever to the claims about Chinese debt traps). I then provided links to multiple in-depth papers from well regarded sources explaining exactly why the widely propagated meme of Chinese debt traps is misguided and not grounded in reality... which somehow is a 'bad faith argument' that does not 'engage with anything you said'? Uhh, okay I guess.
Agree with Salazarz - his sources directly refute the claim that the BRI thus far has been laden with debt traps and asset seizures. Reading about the BRI and responses by other parties such as the US, Japan, India and more, the west is unhappy but thus far seems to fail in offering competitive or better alternatives. US initiatives such as the B3W (2021) and BUILD (2018) are combined an order of magnitude smaller than the BRI.
But I think much of the West's criticism stems not necessarily from debt trap concerns. Economic partnerships are a channel for projecting power - in their simplest form simply by controlling the admission ticket. E.g., Nicaragua severed ties to Taiwan and supported the One China policy one month before joining the BRI (aljazeera, CFR). Whether this is good or bad depends on how you align with China vs US & allies in their Taiwan policies.
Since the US considers China to be their number one enemy, it's not surprising that they are unhappy about China getting more influence and establishing more economic ties abroad. It's totally cool if you or anyone else think that China getting more influence is a bad thing, too, even if I might disagree with that; it's just not cool to use half-truths and outright fabrications to justify such an opinion the way various Western media sources and 'think tanks' often tend to do.
The gaslighting from Serm is silly. I appreciate you calling out the racism too.
Even if people do buy into the childish and reductive "good guy vs bad guy" narratives, China as a competitive peer in a multi-polar world would act as desperately needed check to the US's unending "good guy flavored" invasions, coups, economic/military strong-arming, assassination attempts, ethnic cleansing campaigns, lingering colonialism, etc.
China being a socialist alternative for people around the world is definitely preferable, while also being far from certain imo. The obviously worst possible (yet overwhelmingly favored by westerners) outcome is for China to end up (arguably staying) in a subordinate capitalist role under US dominated hegemonic racial capitalism.
None of that means China is perfect btw, for anyone that needs that disclaimer.
Your anti Americanism is showing. China is worse than the US on all of those factors you named. Your theory that they’ll act as a check against the US makes no sense. It’s like believing that adding a leopard to the lion you’re sharing a raft with will somehow make things better because at least then it’ll be a multipolar raft.
China is an expansionist imperialist power that has territorial disputes with literally all of its neighbours, constantly exchanges fire with several of them, and has recently annexed a previously free democratic territory. Following that annexation it imported its own government loyalist police, contrary to its agreements, and ruthlessly cracked down on the populace. In the next 50 years you’re far safer as a Mexican living next to the hegemonic American empire than as a Vietnamese citizen living next to China.
China is dangerous and is largely constrained by a current inability to achieve its most violent ambitions. Cheering for China’s increasing power is cheering for the next war. It’s not just not perfect, it’s an actively negative force for the world in general. You could argue the US is too, though I would disagree with that, but even then, why would you want a younger, more vigorous, more imperialist, second US thrown into the mix.
On August 14 2023 15:13 KwarK wrote: Your anti Americanism is showing. China is worse than the US on all of those factors you named. Your theory that they’ll act as a check against the US makes no sense. It’s like believing that adding a leopard to the lion you’re sharing a raft with will somehow make things better because at least then it’ll be a multipolar raft.
They objectively aren't and you know this.
Salz just illustrated the bogusness of this line on the economic strong-arming through debt traps. The US has invaded and overthrown more governments since it's creation than any other country in the world (save maybe Nazi Germany depending on how/what you count). No other country comes close to the number of assassination attempts (let alone plans) the US made on Castro, even the worst accounts of what's happening to Uyghurs is less bad than Indian boarding schools, let alone the overt attempts to exterminate indigenous people, and China has more claim to Taiwan than the US does to Hawaii (and that's just the tip of neo/lingering colonialism iceberg).
The notion that China is just as bad as the US or worse on everything all the time will get you plenty of upvotes on reddit, but it doesn't match reality. The demonstrable fact is that China's efforts in Africa haven't been anywhere near as exploitative as the west's.
The US today isn’t doing the same stuff as your historical examples and a unipolar world has been extremely good for world peace. The world has never been more peaceful than it has been under US hegemony. The US is far from a perfect hegemon but it hasn’t annexed anywhere in a few decades and doesn’t plan to.
Your problem seems to be that you’re confused by the linear passage of time. The US has been getting less shitty over time, China more shitty. I expect this trend to continue. You point to US boarding schools for the indigenous as if you think they’re about to bring them back. You point to Hawaii as if the US is on the verge of colonizing the Philippines again. It’s not. Whereas China’s historical trend of weakness is very clearly reversing. Looking at China’s previous inability to turn its imperial ambitions into military victory and projecting that forwards is as absurd as assuming the US is on the verge of setting up boarding schools in the Philippines.
Perhaps you could take a minute to listen to the nations who have borders with China before deciding that you, as an educated western intellectual, must know better than them. Perhaps you’re not the best qualified to address the issue of whether China’s claims to Taiwan have merit. You cheer for the Chinese tiger to be unleashed on the people of east Asia without the slightest notion of what it means for those people. But you don’t care because you, as an American, believe you know better. Not because of how you feel about China either, simply because of how it makes you feel better about America’s place in the world. If they must suffer for you to see America humbled then that’s a price you’re willing to pay.
It’s pure horseshoe with you. You arrive in the exact same arrogant western mindset as those you despise because ultimately these places only exist in your mind insofar as they’re relevant to American hegemony.
The US (and the other western imperial powers) were extremely shitty in East Asia in 1930. Would you cheer for Imperial Japan?
I obviously disagree with your perspective/assessment of my perspective, but considering the US is in a statistical coinflip (against someone that literally tried to forcibly and illegally keep power, ostensibly for the first time in US history) for fascism, you might at least want to temper your own confidence about it "getting less shitty".
On August 14 2023 16:25 GreenHorizons wrote: I obviously disagree with your perspective/assessment of my perspective, but considering the US is in a statistical coinflip (against someone that literally tried to forcibly and illegally keep power, ostensibly for the first time in US history) for fascism, you might at least want to temper your own confidence about it "getting less shitty".
Trump is awful, of course. But is he historically awful? The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. Trump mainly just wants to force the media to suck his dick because he’s a narcissist with a gaping void where you’d expect a soul. He’s motivated entirely by ego, he lives for the rallies and the Twitter arguments and the petty name calling. Bush 2 also stole an election and then he killed a quarter million people.
China sends North Korean escapees right back into North Korea without any exceptions. Several neighbors of China wouldn't dare to send a single soul back. That alone already says so much about the country.
On August 14 2023 16:25 GreenHorizons wrote: I obviously disagree with your perspective/assessment of my perspective, but considering the US is in a statistical coinflip (against someone that literally tried to forcibly and illegally keep power, ostensibly for the first time in US history) for fascism, you might at least want to temper your own confidence about it "getting less shitty".
Trump is awful, of course. But is he historically awful? The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. Trump mainly just wants to force the media to suck his dick because he’s a narcissist with a gaping void where you’d expect a soul. He’s motivated entirely by ego, he lives for the rallies and the Twitter arguments and the petty name calling. Bush 2 also stole an election and then he killed a quarter million people.
America is getting better.
That you could see Trump win the coinflip in 2024 and sincerely tell people "don't worry, this is evidence the US is getting better" might be the scariest thing I've seen you say, depending on how you rationalize it (I don't want you to attempt to thread that needle no matter how potentially amusing it might sound, though The American Civil War is a fun bar I don't think you can be sure we'll clear anyway lol).
I do hope we can at least agree that China's work in Africa through the BRI has demonstrably been less exploitative than Europe's and the US's through the IMF and the like according to the evidence provided/available thus far (this is even with slavery, King Leopold II, their legacies, etc. notwithstanding)?
On August 14 2023 16:25 GreenHorizons wrote: I obviously disagree with your perspective/assessment of my perspective, but considering the US is in a statistical coinflip (against someone that literally tried to forcibly and illegally keep power, ostensibly for the first time in US history) for fascism, you might at least want to temper your own confidence about it "getting less shitty".
Trump is awful, of course. But is he historically awful? The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. Trump mainly just wants to force the media to suck his dick because he’s a narcissist with a gaping void where you’d expect a soul. He’s motivated entirely by ego, he lives for the rallies and the Twitter arguments and the petty name calling. Bush 2 also stole an election and then he killed a quarter million people.
America is getting better.
That you could see Trump win the coinflip in 2024 and sincerely tell people "don't worry, this is evidence the US is getting better" might be the scariest thing I've seen you say, depending on how you rationalize it (I don't want you to attempt to thread that needle no matter how potentially amusing it might sound, though The American Civil War is a fun bar I don't think you can be sure we'll clear anyway lol).
I do hope we can at least agree that China's work in Africa through the BRI is demonstrably been less exploitative than Europe's and the US's through the IMF and the like according to the evidence provided/available thus far (this is even with slavery, King Leopold II, their legacies, etc. notwithstanding)?
Trump is difficult to be objective about because he’s so nakedly abhorrent. So utterly, openly, shamelessly abhorrent. So completely lacking in class and basic human decency. So frustratingly stupid too. Not just dumb but a really offensive kind of dumb where he’ll talk down to everyone on subjects that he clearly knows nothing about. He’ll accuse the entire military staff of the US Army of being idiots because he feels that they’re underutilizing the element of surprise in Iraq because he feels like if he was a general he would use the element of surprise and defeat ISIS. The way he unfailingly takes the absolute worst stance on every issue and then dominates the information space with it is exceptionally annoying. I hate Trump. Like I really, really hate Trump.
But is he more evil than Bush 2? Than Nixon? His death count is lower than either of those. Are his policies worse for the nation than Reagan’s? In part I think he’s too petty to be properly evil. He believes in a kind of small scale personal evil where he wants to engage in vindictive feuds with random people. Whereas Bush 2 will just let Enron write energy legislation. That’s a less offensively stupid kind of evil, but is it any better?
I think you can describe an upward trajectory that includes Trump on it. You just need a sufficiently low starting point and America has plenty of those.
On August 14 2023 16:25 GreenHorizons wrote: I obviously disagree with your perspective/assessment of my perspective, but considering the US is in a statistical coinflip (against someone that literally tried to forcibly and illegally keep power, ostensibly for the first time in US history) for fascism, you might at least want to temper your own confidence about it "getting less shitty".
Trump is awful, of course. But is he historically awful? The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. Trump mainly just wants to force the media to suck his dick because he’s a narcissist with a gaping void where you’d expect a soul. He’s motivated entirely by ego, he lives for the rallies and the Twitter arguments and the petty name calling. Bush 2 also stole an election and then he killed a quarter million people.
America is getting better.
That you could see Trump win the coinflip in 2024 and sincerely tell people "don't worry, this is evidence the US is getting better" might be the scariest thing I've seen you say, depending on how you rationalize it (I don't want you to attempt to thread that needle no matter how potentially amusing it might sound, though The American Civil War is a fun bar I don't think you can be sure we'll clear anyway lol).
I do hope we can at least agree that China's work in Africa through the BRI is demonstrably been less exploitative than Europe's and the US's through the IMF and the like according to the evidence provided/available thus far (this is even with slavery, King Leopold II, their legacies, etc. notwithstanding)?
Trump is difficult to be objective about because he’s so nakedly abhorrent. So utterly, openly, shamelessly abhorrent. So completely lacking in class and basic human decency. So frustratingly stupid too. Not just dumb but a really offensive kind of dumb where he’ll talk down to everyone on subjects that he clearly knows nothing about. He’ll accuse the entire military staff of the US Army of being idiots because he feels that they’re underutilizing the element of surprise in Iraq because he feels like if he was a general he would use the element of surprise and defeat ISIS. The way he unfailingly takes the absolute worst stance on every issue and then dominates the information space with it is exceptionally annoying. I hate Trump. Like I really, really hate Trump.
But is he more evil than Bush 2? Than Nixon? His death count is lower than either of those. Are his policies worse for the nation than Reagan’s? In part I think he’s too petty to be properly evil. He believes in a kind of small scale personal evil where he wants to engage in vindictive feuds with random people. Whereas Bush 2 will just let Enron write energy legislation. That’s a less offensively stupid kind of evil, but is it any better?
I think you can describe an upward trajectory that includes Trump on it. You just need a sufficiently low starting point and America has plenty of those.
Am I supposed to infer that post had a "Yes, but..." or a "No, btw..." at the beginning of it ,or did you just ignore the question altogether in favor of rationalizing (despite my protest at the expense of my own entertainment) your argument that Trump winning in 2024 would be evidence the US is improving?
It's rather wild to claim that it's 'anti-american bias' to say that the US has a rather nasty track record in regards to invasion, coups, assassinations, or strong-arming other nations whether via brute force or economic measures. You could argue that China is worse in terms of ethnic cleansing campaigns (in my opinion, even that one is debatable but at least there's grounds for discussion there), but every other one of those things? I mean, it's not even close. It's cool if you believe that the US is 'improving' and that going forward, they'll behave better than China does... in my opinion, though, a strong China is the biggest incentive ever for the US to actually start behaving better, just like a strong US keeps China from just walking over and taking whatever they please.
The example of Vietnamese people living next to China being in more danger than Mexicans living next to US is once again quite ironic, by the way. The American War on Drugs is one of the main reasons for existence of Mexican cartels, and the US has supplied the vast majority of guns that the cartels have used to murder hundreds of thousands of people. And that's not some '50 years down the line' prediction, it's the reality that we are living in, right now.
On August 14 2023 22:28 JimmiC wrote: How about a comparison in how the US and its free media is handling Maui in comparison to how China and media is handling the floods?
How many less naturally disaster level events are being suppressed in China? We barely know the surface and that is on purpose.
Speaking on that, with the recent floods as expected there's now problems with disease (hospitals are overburdened) and apparently most people in the country don't even know there was a flood. When asked about it people from other provinces say they just heard some rumors and all they know is they can't travel to Beijing because of rain or something but nothing past that. The amount of censorship going on in this country is staggering.
There are even reports that posts about the flood on Twitter got spammed with porn so they would get taken down and accounts posting any info about it suspended.
I guess one of the saddest things about all of this is the government's mentality that we can trace back to Mao: "Even if half of the Chinese people will die there will still be 600 million Chinese left." (updated the quote for current numbers) They don't give a shit about their own people, the only thing they're interested in is staying in power and they'll sacrifice everything for it.
On August 14 2023 22:28 JimmiC wrote: How about a comparison in how the US and its free media is handling Maui in comparison to how China and media is handling the floods?
How many less naturally disaster level events are being suppressed in China? We barely know the surface and that is on purpose.
Speaking on that, with the recent floods as expected there's now problems with disease (hospitals are overburdened) and apparently most people in the country don't even know there was a flood. When asked about it people from other provinces say they just heard some rumors and all they know is they can't travel to Beijing because of rain or something but nothing past that. The amount of censorship going on in this country is staggering.
There are even reports that posts about the flood on Twitter got spammed with porn so they would get taken down and accounts posting any info about it suspended.
I guess one of the saddest things about all of this is the government's mentality that we can trace back to Mao: "Even if half of the Chinese people will die there will still be 600 million Chinese left." (updated the quote for current numbers) They don't give a shit about their own people, the only thing they're interested in is staying in power and they'll sacrifice everything for it.
Well, China is not a free country; 1984 central actually; still, a billion people somehow live their life there; what have you kinda thing
On August 14 2023 22:28 JimmiC wrote: How about a comparison in how the US and its free media is handling Maui in comparison to how China and media is handling the floods?
How many less naturally disaster level events are being suppressed in China? We barely know the surface and that is on purpose.
Apologies for the very late response; just moved to a new flat so been too busy to troll teh forumz!
The point about information suppression in China is certainly fair, and it's not a great look; worse yet are their silly and, in my opinion, completely misguided efforts to 'erase' unpleasant parts of their history. The way CCP tries to censor references to Tiananmen square is straight up comical. That said, the ham-fistedness of their approach actually makes it less malicious than the way Western propaganda operates, in my opinion. Take our earlier back and forth about 'Chinese debt traps' -- plenty of people who are generally intelligent and capable critical thinkers fall for the narratives like those because our 'free' media is more subtle and believable, and nobody in this day and age has the time to research and fact check every single piece of news. It's not limited to just current news, either -- we do plenty of 'rewriting history' to suit our political discourse as well (I figure citing specific examples of this that I have in mind right now could derail the thread pretty heavily, but I'd be happy to share my thoughts on this in PMs or a separate thread if that's a conversation you're interested in having).
Either way, whatever criticisms of Western media I might have, of course that doesn't make the Great Firewall or whatever bullshit CCP 'media' peddles acceptable. But I don't think straight up comparisons between any specific aspects of Chinese society vs the West are very useful, at any rate. They've been playing catchup for the last 100+ years since their country was so late to industrialize, never mind the tremendous damage caused to their nation by WW2 and the following civil war. All things considered, IMO it's fair to say that CCP has done a reasonably good job of leading their country. Looking at 'democratic' India, things certainly could have been much worse.
I guess one of the saddest things about all of this is the government's mentality that we can trace back to Mao: "Even if half of the Chinese people will die there will still be 600 million Chinese left." (updated the quote for current numbers) They don't give a shit about their own people, the only thing they're interested in is staying in power and they'll sacrifice everything for it.
Life expectancy at birth in China was 50 years some short 60 years ago. It is now higher than that of the US and half of Europe. In my cynical mind, most governments don't really 'give a shit about their own people', but some are definitely better at improving the livelihoods of their people than others are.
On one hand, it is impossible to ignore the huge efforts China has undertaken over the past 40 years. Global poverty was massively reduced just because of the hundreds of millions that were lifted out of desperate poverty due to economic development in China. And of course accompanying economic growth are general improvements to quality of life and life expectancy.
On the other hand, perhaps as a result of that amazing turnaround, China today is now on a collision path with the US led West. Today Xi is centralising power in order to focus it on his dream to make China great again, consequences be damned. It is a very scary thought that the entire future of a fifth of the world is being gambled for one man's ambitions.
On August 22 2023 23:09 gobbledydook wrote: On one hand, it is impossible to ignore the huge efforts China has undertaken over the past 40 years. Global poverty was massively reduced just because of the hundreds of millions that were lifted out of desperate poverty due to economic development in China. And of course accompanying economic growth are general improvements to quality of life and life expectancy.
On the other hand, perhaps as a result of that amazing turnaround, China today is now on a collision path with the US led West. Today Xi is centralising power in order to focus it on his dream to make China great again, consequences be damned. It is a very scary thought that the entire future of a fifth of the world is being gambled for one man's ambitions.
Country's development doesn't necessarily mean that people are being lifted from poverty. It can be quite the opposite. Good example here would be the modernization of agriculture, where you no longer need so many people to work the fields and they instead try to move into the cities but lack the skills and education that are desirable in this environment, pushing them out of society and into poverty. That's how favelas came to be in Brazil.
He's making some good points about homelessness and poverty in the West vs China. Everyone knows that US has a big problem with homeless people (among many other societal problems), it's being talked about internationally. No one can really hide or deny it. On the other hand you have China which does whatever it can to not let any information about homelessness/joblessness come out. "It's not a problem if no one can see it" seems to be their stance.
On August 14 2023 22:28 JimmiC wrote: How about a comparison in how the US and its free media is handling Maui in comparison to how China and media is handling the floods?
How many less naturally disaster level events are being suppressed in China? We barely know the surface and that is on purpose.
Apologies for the very late response; just moved to a new flat so been too busy to troll teh forumz!
The point about information suppression in China is certainly fair, and it's not a great look; worse yet are their silly and, in my opinion, completely misguided efforts to 'erase' unpleasant parts of their history. The way CCP tries to censor references to Tiananmen square is straight up comical. That said, the ham-fistedness of their approach actually makes it less malicious than the way Western propaganda operates, in my opinion. Take our earlier back and forth about 'Chinese debt traps' -- plenty of people who are generally intelligent and capable critical thinkers fall for the narratives like those because our 'free' media is more subtle and believable, and nobody in this day and age has the time to research and fact check every single piece of news. It's not limited to just current news, either -- we do plenty of 'rewriting history' to suit our political discourse as well (I figure citing specific examples of this that I have in mind right now could derail the thread pretty heavily, but I'd be happy to share my thoughts on this in PMs or a separate thread if that's a conversation you're interested in having).
Either way, whatever criticisms of Western media I might have, of course that doesn't make the Great Firewall or whatever bullshit CCP 'media' peddles acceptable. But I don't think straight up comparisons between any specific aspects of Chinese society vs the West are very useful, at any rate. They've been playing catchup for the last 100+ years since their country was so late to industrialize, never mind the tremendous damage caused to their nation by WW2 and the following civil war. All things considered, IMO it's fair to say that CCP has done a reasonably good job of leading their country. Looking at 'democratic' India, things certainly could have been much worse.
I guess one of the saddest things about all of this is the government's mentality that we can trace back to Mao: "Even if half of the Chinese people will die there will still be 600 million Chinese left." (updated the quote for current numbers) They don't give a shit about their own people, the only thing they're interested in is staying in power and they'll sacrifice everything for it.
Life expectancy at birth in China was 50 years some short 60 years ago. It is now higher than that of the US and half of Europe. In my cynical mind, most governments don't really 'give a shit about their own people', but some are definitely better at improving the livelihoods of their people than others are.
You’re not going to see me argue that China is not better off than under Mao and I think the India comparison is fair. But I will say it is not better for groups outside of the Han. There is clearly massive corruption as communism should not have elites let alone a billionaire class. We really do not know how good or how bad it is because of the information control. We do know they have sold their labour at slave rates or as slaves to enrich themselves. We do know they have done immense damage to the planet. We do know they want to grow their empire. We do know they do not allow checks or balances or even critique.
It could easily be argued that it’s been trickle down from exploitative capitalism that has led to the gains. It could also be argued that they are not worse than others who let through industrialization on the planet, but I’m not sure that is great given what we know now compared to them.
I mean they are clearly a hell of a lot better than North Korea and a hell of a lot worse than many developed democracies. I would think the VAST majority of people in HK much preferred it before.
If you could get real fair information it would be much easier to do a fair analysis, but it says lots that neither of us can.
I'm not sure why do you think that it's impossible to know what the truth of life in China is like -- it's not as if they are some sort of a closed off state. It's very easy to travel and see how they live for yourself. Obviously you're not going to get 100% accurate numbers on every statistic you might be interested in (but you can't really get that anywhere, since everybody likes to fudge numbers and use whatever methodologies favor them...)
I'm not sure it's fair to say that China has 'done immense damage to the planet.' To this day, their contributions to CO2 emissions and whatnot per capita are significantly lower than those of pretty much every Western nation. And Western nations are at such a point in development where we could actually meaningfully reduce our emissions without necessarily disrupting our lifestyles all that much due to our accumulated wealth, yet we just... don't. Criticizing them selling labor at slave rates is also pretty strange -- I mean, they (used to) sell their labor incredibly cheap because that was still better than nothing when their economy was growing. Today, Chinese labor is actually pretty expensive, which is why the real sweat shops are now in South East Asia & Africa, for the most part. Of course their upper classes enriched themselves in the process -- but they've also generated huge amounts of investments that was used to build up proper jobs and infrastructure for their people, so I don't know why is that a bad thing. And I definitely don't share your confidence about China wanting to grow their empire. Historically, they've always been one of the least expansion-minded hegemons ever.
From a Western perspective, of course you'd rather have a weak and under-industrialized China that has no meaningful influence on global politics or anything of the sort. But from a Chinese perspective, why would they want to play second fiddle to the US forever? They have their own national interests, and it's rather naive and hypocritical to call them evil or whatever for pursuing said interests.
If China keeps industralizing the way it does instead of reverting course to aim for sustainability, they will no longer have a planet left to show off their hypothetical wealth to the rest of the world. You can talk about "per capita pollution" all you want, that won't stop global warming until we reach a breaking point that could end humankind within a few generations. I don't know if people realize this, but global warming is a much greater and more immediate threat to us all than nuclear winter ever was. This is why "per capita" arguments just don't hold up to scrutiny.
You can argue that other countries besides China should contribute in their own way to a massive reduction of pollution. That would be true indeed, and I will support you all the way on that. Both practically and morally that would be the only right thing to do. But to handwave away the fact that China is practically leading the charge in destroying the planet, that might go well with certain crowds like the American conservative base, but it won't convince many liberals, and it'll piss off every single person who cares about the environment in the slightest.
China has an opportunity to become a world leader in green energy. They could show the US how sustainability can be done right. Instead they choose destruction for quick riches. That's going to end horribly for everyone, especially for Chinese people.
There is still a wide gap between "you can't know anything" and "knowing everything accurately". It is true that the censorship in China makes it somewhat harder to obtain the full truth than in a functioning democracy, but just taking your examples we do know that a lot of people died during Covid, and that there was a serious flood that caused more casualties than the government would like to admit. It's not like you, or Chinese people, know absolutely nothing.
A bigger problem for China than it's c02 production is it's pollution on arable land. It's already importing food and their agriculture base has never been industrialized like the cities.
On August 24 2023 06:22 Sermokala wrote: A bigger problem for China than it's c02 production is it's pollution on arable land. It's already importing food and their agriculture base has never been industrialized like the cities.
And keep in mind that this year they had drought and then flooding. Not good prospects for agriculture.
IMO the entire CO2 point is kinda moot because the biggest contributor to climate change right now is CO2 that's already been released and it's a compounding effect since with our current technology we can't reduce our fossil fuel usage to a sufficient level nor are we able to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, oceans etc. In any case we're pretty much fucked on this front unless we can somehow come up with a miracle technology that can solve it quickly (even if all humans on the planet stopped breathing and we cut our CO2 emissions to 0 overnight on a global scale it'll still take a few hundred years for the current levels of CO2 already out to even begin dropping and probably like a thousand years for it to get to safe levels). Scientists have been warning about it since 1985 (and said even back then that the action needs to be taken immediately, so we're almost 40 years late on that trigger already) but no one ever took them seriously, especially that it would be impossible to sustain our current economy and lifestyle with drastic fossil fuel usage reductions.
Edit: Also, China's emissions are almost 3 times that of USA, despite China's emissions dropping by 0.2% last year and USA's increasing by 0.8%. EU emissions are roughly 2/3rd that of USA so EU + USA is still less than China alone (which is roughly equivalent to 2x USA + 1x EU).
Speculations on Chinese economy are also hard. Ever since Xi came to power China has been hiding more and more data from the rest of the world (economic indicators China is sharing have dropped by ~75% since 2015).
By Bloomberg News August 16, 2023 at 5:00 AM GMT+2
China’s abrupt decision to pause releasing data on its soaring youth jobless rate this week was the latest sign the Asian giant is increasingly restricting sensitive information — especially when it’s unflattering to the nation’s faltering economy.
This happened recently when their youth jobless rate hit a new record high (at over 21%) and almost all banks/agencies have dropped their GDP forecasts for China, predicting a decline rather than growth.
Speaking of chinese economics the billionaire founder of foxconn has come out to declare his candidacy to become president of Taiwan. Hes the largest private employer of chinese citizens, not Taiwanese citizens but mainlanders.
"If the Chinese Communist Party dares to do this, which country, which investment fund, which company would dare to invest in China?"
Is his obvious response. Hes running as an independent, Its not TSMC but in that sphere and definitely has deep ties to samsung and apple. Hes failed to win the nomination of the KMT for a few times of asking but money obviously won't be an issue nor will be credability. I have no idea if he will win or not but that'll be a very interesting development in Asia. Taiwans strategic weapon is its chip fabs but this guy could make a very easy pitch that he knows china enough to ensure the peace through trade.
On August 24 2023 06:22 Sermokala wrote: A bigger problem for China than it's c02 production is it's pollution on arable land. It's already importing food and their agriculture base has never been industrialized like the cities.
And keep in mind that this year they had drought and then flooding. Not good prospects for agriculture.
IMO the entire CO2 point is kinda moot because the biggest contributor to climate change right now is CO2 that's already been released and it's a compounding effect since with our current technology we can't reduce our fossil fuel usage to a sufficient level nor are we able to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, oceans etc. In any case we're pretty much fucked on this front unless we can somehow come up with a miracle technology that can solve it quickly (even if all humans on the planet stopped breathing and we cut our CO2 emissions to 0 overnight on a global scale it'll still take a few hundred years for the current levels of CO2 already out to even begin dropping and probably like a thousand years for it to get to safe levels). Scientists have been warning about it since 1985 (and said even back then that the action needs to be taken immediately, so we're almost 40 years late on that trigger already) but no one ever took them seriously, especially that it would be impossible to sustain our current economy and lifestyle with drastic fossil fuel usage reductions.
Edit: Also, China's emissions are almost 3 times that of USA, despite China's emissions dropping by 0.2% last year and USA's increasing by 0.8%. EU emissions are roughly 2/3rd that of USA so EU + USA is still less than China alone (which is roughly equivalent to 2x USA + 1x EU).
Climate activists basically have been in denial for a decade already. It was already too late to stop global warming 10 years ago. Pretending that we can today is doing a disservice to public discourse. We should really be talking about 1. How do we not make things worse, and 2. How do we adapt to the changes
China has never been a 'communist' country, and I don't think they've ever really claimed to be one. They're just on the way to build communism or something like that, but obviously today's China is a capitalist country. That article is garbage, by the way. :p The economic issues China is facing aren't going to be solved by a stimulus check.
On September 07 2023 22:01 JimmiC wrote: It’s way to short to get into any of the issues. The part I found interesting about it was that China is using right economic tools to deal with economic issues and not left. I know they are pretending to be on the path to utopian communism and just not there yet, but you would think using leftist economics would be the key. Or even to keep up appearances.
I wonder if they are going to even stop pretending at some point here.
I don't think it's very useful to look at the way China operates through our left / right lens. For better or worse, their approach to most political and economic issues is quite different from that of Western countries and these labels just aren't very relevant there.
They haven't moved right. It's that the usual way of dealing with economic trouble by directing state bank lending and local government investment into infrastructure has reached its limits due to diminishing returns on infrastructure and high leverage. And they do not know an alternative way to deal with it without increasing leverage even more.
The only two things I can say about modern China's governance is that it's extremely nationalistic, and that the CCP is an indisputable, unanswering authority. Hierarchy is everything in China. Power can never come from below. One could say that Chinese individuals and groups can express themselves the way they want, and they can live under the (highly authoritarian) regime - until they suddenly can't. In this way the CCP gaslights the Chinese people all the time. The known fact is that people can never question the CCP. This is practically speaking law. There's a more sinister problem though: the CCP selectively and arbitrarily takes freedoms away for various types of political or economic gain. They don't apply their policies cohesively, but instead very selectively. That means that any Chinese person or group can, at any random moment, have their rights stripped away from them, and this is typically done without cementing it as law, so that never all Chinese people are affected all at once, but only some of them, while the remaining people are shielded from arbitrary crackdowns or neglect. Equally selective and arbitrary is the targeted funding of areas, projects, etc. This "system" is supported by a strong web of various types of propaganda. The beautiful is on open display, while the ugly is hidden away. At least wherever that's possible. As a Chinese person you can never be sure what comes next. You could suddenly be uprooted, underfunded or imprisoned, without ever seeing it coming, and there's no accountability by the authorities.
Political analysts are having a hard time describing the Chinese system as something cohesive. It's hardly a system at all besides the obvious. It's neither socialist nor capitalist - it's both at the same time, side by side and at different times. It's neither collectivist nor individualist - it's both at the same time, side by side and at different times. The CCP is like a gaslighting, all powerful, overbearing parent - unless they aren't. They favor some of their children and disfavor others. Like narcissistic parents. It's hard to describe it better.
On September 08 2023 19:33 Magic Powers wrote: The only two things I can say about modern China's governance is that it's extremely nationalistic, and that the CCP is an indisputable, unanswering authority. Hierarchy is everything in China. Power can never come from below. One could say that Chinese individuals and groups can express themselves the way they want, and they can live under the (highly authoritarian) regime - until they suddenly can't. In this way the CCP gaslights the Chinese people all the time. The known fact is that people can never question the CCP. This is practically speaking law. There's a more sinister problem though: the CCP selectively and arbitrarily takes freedoms away for various types of political or economic gain. They don't apply their policies cohesively, but instead very selectively. That means that any Chinese person or group can, at any random moment, have their rights stripped away from them, and this is typically done without cementing it as law, so that never all Chinese people are affected all at once, but only some of them, while the remaining people are shielded from arbitrary crackdowns or neglect. Equally selective and arbitrary is the targeted funding of areas, projects, etc. This "system" is supported by a strong web of various types of propaganda. The beautiful is on open display, while the ugly is hidden away. At least wherever that's possible. As a Chinese person you can never be sure what comes next. You could suddenly be uprooted, underfunded or imprisoned, without ever seeing it coming, and there's no accountability by the authorities.
Political analysts are having a hard time describing the Chinese system as something cohesive. It's hardly a system at all besides the obvious. It's neither socialist nor capitalist - it's both at the same time, side by side and at different times. It's neither collectivist nor individualist - it's both at the same time, side by side and at different times. The CCP is like a gaslighting, all powerful, overbearing parent - unless they aren't. They favor some of their children and disfavor others. Like narcissistic parents. It's hard to describe it better.
Very well spoken; there is elements of a monarchy, elements of a theocracy, but it’s not based on religion per se. More like a person belief system of the people in the chain of command. And above all as you said, like a person who cannot take or accept or hear any criticism;
At the basis of this pillar of power, and preferential or abusive treatment, is the lack of a cohesive system that garanties modern human rights. The right to speak freely and peacefully without negative consequences. The right for privacy. And the right for internet freedom, which nowadays, in this era of information, is quintessential. Chinese citizens may or not have these rights. Which is selective. Which in turn points to a monarchy, where certain families and people have privileges, and money, and power.
Let’s not also forget how the Chinese government has foreign policies that are oppressive, brutalizing and manipulative. They will not let go of Tibet, they created a personal 1984 with the uygers, and claim to be the owners of the sea to the south that should be international waters.
Let’s face it, when North Korea is your best friend, and you are their best friend, that already gives you a good indication of where you are at
Shenzhen got hit pretty bad by the rainfall. 50cm of rain over 24 hours, the whole city is completely flooded. People are posting clips of taking a boat to work as a body of a dead delivery man floats by...
I wonder how long it'll take for the city to recover, for such a bustling center of technology to be effectively put out of commission this way. Considering they also have a wide network of underground tunnels, subway, underground parking lots and gigantic shopping centers that go 4 stories below the ground which will now be completely flooded.
Economic damage just from the flooded goods in those shopping centers and millions of cars being destroyed by water is going to be huge.
Hong Kong got hit pretty bad too as Shenzhen released their flood gates from the reservoir at midnight and flooded HK.
I am surprised to see a thread like this on TL. Just my 5 cent as someone who was born in China and grew up in China until 14 when I moved to US. All I can tell you is the moment a Chinese is born they are taught to hate the west. Especially US. People were celebrating on city square when 911 happened out of joy. And is not people cannot question the communist party. It is so brain washed if you had the luck to speak to some Chinese mainlander who just visiting outside world for the first time. You will not be surprised they take it personal if you bad mouth the CCP. It’s totally nationalistic to a degree matching and above the level of Nazi back in history.
The short summary of understanding CCP is yours is mine mine is still mine. Just bunch of bandit who became the government. Who is trying to rob the rest of the world after robbing China for past however many years since that came in power. No one technically owns anything in China. Especially land. You don’t even own yourself. The anti spy law basically means that they can jail anyone including foreigners at will at any given time without proper evidence.
I never understood how western supply chain ended up in China in the first place. A place who wants to kill the west the whole time. It baffles my mind. Luckily our family benefited from this decision so we are able to become US citizen now.
But looking back this whole thing never made any sense. There is no actual government in China. Just a gang. All the anti corruption is a joke. It works as they get quota on how many people they will jail for corruption. And leader of the city or district basically point out who is next on the list to clear political opposition. Nothing is actually based on law or order. You piss off the pimp you go to jail. I have relative who is anti corruption officer in China and they told me how the system work. And if you ever run business in China. All the departments collect your money like gang protection fee. If you become successful business man in China you are in bed with the devil. You have to give in your soul for the money.
Sorry for the random rant. I just thought this might give you guys some idea on how China really is. And now China is all the way back to the great cultural revolution kind of period. The booming China that worked with the west as we know in the past 40 some year is dead.
Hong Kong has never been flooded in all the years under flourishing British rule, and as soon as the CCP takes over, this happens, why am I not surprised.
On September 12 2023 01:46 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: I am surprised to see a thread like this on TL. Just my 5 cent as someone who was born in China and grew up in China until 14 when I moved to US. All I can tell you is the moment a Chinese is born they are taught to hate the west. Especially US. People were celebrating on city square when 911 happened out of joy. And is not people cannot question the communist party. It is so brain washed if you had the luck to speak to some Chinese mainlander who just visiting outside world for the first time. You will not be surprised they take it personal if you bad mouth the CCP. It’s totally nationalistic to a degree matching and above the level of Nazi back in history.
The short summary of understanding CCP is yours is mine mine is still mine. Just bunch of bandit who became the government. Who is trying to rob the rest of the world after robbing China for past however many years since that came in power. No one technically owns anything in China. Especially land. You don’t even own yourself. The anti spy law basically means that they can jail anyone including foreigners at will at any given time without proper evidence.
I never understood how western supply chain ended up in China in the first place. A place who wants to kill the west the whole time. It baffles my mind. Luckily our family benefited from this decision so we are able to become US citizen now.
But looking back this whole thing never made any sense. There is no actual government in China. Just a gang. All the anti corruption is a joke. It works as they get quota on how many people they will jail for corruption. And leader of the city or district basically point out who is next on the list to clear political opposition. Nothing is actually based on law or order. You piss off the pimp you go to jail. I have relative who is anti corruption officer in China and they told me how the system work. And if you ever run business in China. All the departments collect your money like gang protection fee. If you become successful business man in China you are in bed with the devil. You have to give in your soul for the money.
Sorry for the random rant. I just thought this might give you guys some idea on how China really is. And now China is all the way back to the great cultural revolution kind of period. The booming China that worked with the west as we know in the past 40 some year is dead.
Don't apologize for what you think is a random rant. It's a legitimate opinion, and from what I'm seeing, a lot of people feel the same way.
If you want to know how the western supply chain ended up in China, you probably have to start with the history before either of us were born, in Nixon and Kissinger's era, and culminating with Clinton allowing China to finally join the WTO (not long after Tiananmen Square even). Which now in hindsight, were all bad foreign policy decisions from America's standpoint now that Xi's going full dictator and is now biting the hand that fed him all those decades ago.
Back in the 90s, Deng Xiaoping realized one thing: letting USA take the lead, and siding with and cooperating with them will make your country rich af, and China would be foolish not to do so. Just look at Germany and Japan, the economic powerhouses of the time in Europe and Asia respectively.
The problem is, what happens when your eventual successor decides to become an ambitious power-hungry dictator, as 99.9% of dictators do (sorry it's just human nature), and decides to aggressively claim and "annex" your smaller neighbors' lands, islands, and international seas (at the expense and irritation of all countries involved, pushing them away from China and closer to the US), as well as attempt to replace US's brand of imperialism (which usually is a net positive with economic benefits for countries willing to put up with it) with their own brand of CCP imperialism, just because China's got a couple of nukes?
Yea America, we done goofed, but at least we learned from that and are finally doing what we should've done from the beginning after a bunch of Chinese students and protesters got massacred, starting with Trump's sanctions against China (one of the few good things he did). Xi's mistake was mistaking America's kindness for weakness, and now he's paying for it. The fact that he's best friends with the genocidal fascist who's invaded Ukraine doesn't help him either, as he himself is eyeing Taiwan as a fat man would a Twinkie.
It's no secret the CCP is just a band of backstabbing thieves and bandits, taking whatever they want by force and oppression. All the land they now own were forcibly taken from legit landowners in the past. And their reputation for having a known predisposition to backstab and betray others isn't by coincidence either, they even backstab their own people (which is how Taiwan came to be). There's a saying you might or might not have heard of before: "You just can't trust the Chinese." I'll be more specific and change that to "You just can't trust the CCP." When Japan's prime minister came to China to apologize for Nanjing, Mao was quoted having said something along the lines of, "Don't apologize. Without your help, we would never have ganked our nationalist brothers as effectively as we did, so thanks!" (And because of this one weird interaction, maybe that's why Japan never apologized to Korea either?) The CCP has always had a long list of historical precedents of looting, betrayal, and dishonesty, so I don't know why the United States would ever take what they say at face value.
There are a lot of expatriates who emigrated from China, and they usually talk shit about the CCP (finally without consequences), for good reason. You'll find no shortage of their choice words and remarks in any media that's not constrained within the Great Firewall of China. Protestors from Hong Kong now travel to Taiwan to protest against the CCP to avoid the police beatings and incarcerations (nice loophole lol). Add that to Taiwan reminding China that they have democratic elections of free people every four years, and you can see why China gobbling up Taiwan like a greedy blob would remove a lot of headaches for the CCP that's obsessed with controlling everything and everyone just to stay in power.
On September 12 2023 06:21 riotjune wrote: Which now in hindsight, were all bad foreign policy decisions from America's standpoint now that Xi's going full dictator and is now biting the hand that fed him all those decades ago.
USA has a weird tendency of creating dictators (Cuba, the Middle East, South America). I guess this is the side effect of helping one faction that'll push the policies you want as opposed to helping the country as a whole, but that's for another topic
Speaking of Chinese ex-pats I think it's not always the case that they freely criticize CCP. A lot of people from China that's abroad is still pretty walled off in various China Towns and such. CCP maintains police stations abroad too. There's a reason why they say that the Chinese spy network is one of the best because nearly every single person from China that's abroad is a potential asset/agent.
I think that Chinese people abroad who are criticizing CCP are either people who have left China because they already knew it was bad and tried to escape or descendants of people who didn't get sucked into China Towns (as I think it could take a generation or two of living abroad to "westernize" some people).
That's just my speculation though, based on what I read and heard people say as I don't have much personal experience with that (we do have quite a few Chinese people in Poland but we don't have China Towns and such).
Damn, the flooding fallout is starting to get ridiculous in China.
1. In Inner Mongolia they set up a coal strip mine that was sitting on uranium. Delivering polluted coal to railways and power plants is one thing but now after the heavy rains and flooding the water that evaporated is creating radioactive rain.
2. Guangzhou Crocodile Park (largest in the world) got flooded. It hosted around 100k crocodiles and alligators which are now being seen swimming in residential areas.
3. Influx of water brought increased number of mosquitos and there are reports of Dengue fever.
It's kinda like watching post-apocalyptic movie but live...
I'm not sure yet what could this mean exactly but it seems that China's financial sector is having troubles. According to the Shanghai Paper Exchange which releases some financial reports every month 271 banks in China have defaulted. 167 of those are branches of the biggest state-owned banks.
It might be a sign of real estate and bond crisis we saw earlier spreading to other sectors. Seeing how real estate market was very big in China and basically propping up their economy when it failed there were bound to be ripples.
On September 19 2023 19:15 Manit0u wrote: I'm not sure yet what could this mean exactly but it seems that China's financial sector is having troubles. According to the Shanghai Paper Exchange which releases some financial reports every month 271 banks in China have defaulted. 167 of those are branches of the biggest state-owned banks.
It might be a sign of real estate and bond crisis we saw earlier spreading to other sectors. Seeing how real estate market was very big in China and basically propping up their economy when it failed there were bound to be ripples.
It’s only natural this happens. Chinese population is at decline. So it’s much worse than what Japan had experienced in the lost years.
It’s likely that half of the provinces in China cannot pay out salary for their government workers too. So some really strange things are happening. In he bei China. A guy works for a company oversea has to use VPN. The police made him pay 200 CNY for illegal use of VPN. And on top of this they made him give up the salary he made in the past 3 years which is roughly 1 million CNY. Somewhere around 150k usd or so.
Which is out right robbery by the state police in broad daylight…..
Edit: a bit more update, the guy probably didn't pay tax, and offended some rules on money laundering, but the fun fact is the VPN usage can be used to start investigating everyone. :D
Doesn't look like China is going to be backing down on the trade war any time soon.
China may be asking too much of the US/Trump by wanting them to “demonstrate an attitude of equality, respect and mutual benefit”
“The United States is still imposing arbitrary tariffs on China and relentlessly applying extreme pressure. China firmly opposes this and will never accept such domineering and bullying behavior,” Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Lin Jian told a regular news conference.
After the latest round kicked in on Wednesday, Lin told media that US needed to “demonstrate an attitude of equality, respect and mutual benefit” if it truly wanted to resolve the trade war through dialogue.
“If the US disregards the interests of both countries and the international community and insists on waging a tariff war and trade war, China will fight to the end,” Lin added.
On April 11 2025 19:23 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: If Trump doesn't back down they can always just go massive stimulus and build more ghost cities to boost GDP.
Totally sane and sustainable.
If Trump doesn't back down, they'll probably be a lone super power and the US will be a glorified patchwork of Megaton cities.
It is far too early to predict the "winner" (whatever it means) of the trade war between china and usa.
Personally, I believe china make the right move to confront usa the way it did, even if eventually it cost china a great deal of suffering. If china (or any country) allow the us to do whatever it want, without much if any cost, ultimately the usa will take everything.
On April 12 2025 00:44 mounteast02 wrote: It is far too early to predict the "winner" (whatever it means) of the trade war between china and usa.
Personally, I believe china make the right move to confront usa the way it did, even if eventually it cost china a great deal of suffering. If china (or any country) allow the us to do whatever it want, without much if any cost, ultimately the usa will take everything.
Being in the US it feels pretty clear we're going to lose this, but yeah, China's definitely making the right call. It's basically what I was talking about back when Kwark was trying to convince people Trump winning the election would be a sign of how the US is getting better
Even if people do buy into the childish and reductive "good guy vs bad guy" narratives, China as a competitive peer in a multi-polar world would act as desperately needed check to the US's unending "good guy flavored" invasions, coups, economic/military strong-arming, assassination attempts, ethnic cleansing campaigns, lingering colonialism, etc.
China being a socialist alternative for people around the world is definitely preferable, while also being far from certain imo. The obviously worst possible (yet overwhelmingly favored by westerners) outcome is for China to end up (arguably staying) in a subordinate capitalist role under US dominated hegemonic racial capitalism.
None of that means China is perfect btw, for anyone that needs that disclaimer.
On April 12 2025 00:50 GreenHorizons wrote: Kwark was trying to convince people Trump winning the election would be a sign of how the US is getting better
On April 12 2025 00:44 mounteast02 wrote: It is far too early to predict the "winner" (whatever it means) of the trade war between china and usa.
Personally, I believe china make the right move to confront usa the way it did, even if eventually it cost china a great deal of suffering. If china (or any country) allow the us to do whatever it want, without much if any cost, ultimately the usa will take everything.
Being in the US it feels pretty clear we're going to lose this, but yeah, China's definitely making the right call. It's basically what I was talking about back when
Kwark was trying to convince people Trump winning the election would be a sign of how the US is getting better
Even if people do buy into the childish and reductive "good guy vs bad guy" narratives, China as a competitive peer in a multi-polar world would act as desperately needed check to the US's unending "good guy flavored" invasions, coups, economic/military strong-arming, assassination attempts, ethnic cleansing campaigns, lingering colonialism, etc.
China being a socialist alternative for people around the world is definitely preferable, while also being far from certain imo. The obviously worst possible (yet overwhelmingly favored by westerners) outcome is for China to end up (arguably staying) in a subordinate capitalist role under US dominated hegemonic racial capitalism.
None of that means China is perfect btw, for anyone that needs that disclaimer.
On August 14 2023 16:25 GreenHorizons wrote: I obviously disagree with your perspective/assessment of my perspective, but considering the US is in a statistical coinflip (against someone that literally tried to forcibly and illegally keep power, ostensibly for the first time in US history) for fascism, you might at least want to temper your own confidence about it "getting less shitty".
Trump is awful, of course. But is he historically awful? + Show Spoiler +
The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. Trump mainly just wants to force the media to suck his dick because he’s a narcissist with a gaping void where you’d expect a soul. He’s motivated entirely by ego, he lives for the rallies and the Twitter arguments and the petty name calling. Bush 2 also stole an election and then he killed a quarter million people.
On April 10 2025 19:59 Silvanel wrote: Well. EU tarrfis are paused, while US 10% remain in place... https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn4jjw30d5qt Don't know how I feel about that. On the one hand I like that we are being mature about that, but on the other I dont like being bullied.
Nothing mature about it, Trump got to place 10% blanket tariffs without a reciprocal response. Sad that the world is having to look to China of all places to teach America not to fuck around.
The idea that China is somehow a socialist alternative is as much of a joke back then as it is now. The idea that the world would be better in another cold war just shows how much of a joke your worldview is.
Kwark was saying that the US has been getting better from the time it went to war with itself over slavery. You trying to link that to him saying that Trump winning was a sign that the US was getting better is very on brand for you.
On April 12 2025 00:44 mounteast02 wrote: It is far too early to predict the "winner" (whatever it means) of the trade war between china and usa.
Personally, I believe china make the right move to confront usa the way it did, even if eventually it cost china a great deal of suffering. If china (or any country) allow the us to do whatever it want, without much if any cost, ultimately the usa will take everything.
Being in the US it feels pretty clear we're going to lose this, but yeah, China's definitely making the right call. It's basically what I was talking about back when
Kwark was trying to convince people Trump winning the election would be a sign of how the US is getting better
Even if people do buy into the childish and reductive "good guy vs bad guy" narratives, China as a competitive peer in a multi-polar world would act as desperately needed check to the US's unending "good guy flavored" invasions, coups, economic/military strong-arming, assassination attempts, ethnic cleansing campaigns, lingering colonialism, etc.
China being a socialist alternative for people around the world is definitely preferable, while also being far from certain imo. The obviously worst possible (yet overwhelmingly favored by westerners) outcome is for China to end up (arguably staying) in a subordinate capitalist role under US dominated hegemonic racial capitalism.
None of that means China is perfect btw, for anyone that needs that disclaimer.
On August 14 2023 16:25 GreenHorizons wrote: I obviously disagree with your perspective/assessment of my perspective, but considering the US is in a statistical coinflip (against someone that literally tried to forcibly and illegally keep power, ostensibly for the first time in US history) for fascism, you might at least want to temper your own confidence about it "getting less shitty".
Trump is awful, of course. But is he historically awful? + Show Spoiler +
The US has had some real monsters in charge. Plus that time it broke into two countries because half of them wanted to own people. Trump mainly just wants to force the media to suck his dick because he’s a narcissist with a gaping void where you’d expect a soul. He’s motivated entirely by ego, he lives for the rallies and the Twitter arguments and the petty name calling. Bush 2 also stole an election and then he killed a quarter million people.
On April 10 2025 19:59 Silvanel wrote: Well. EU tarrfis are paused, while US 10% remain in place... https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn4jjw30d5qt Don't know how I feel about that. On the one hand I like that we are being mature about that, but on the other I dont like being bullied.
Nothing mature about it, Trump got to place 10% blanket tariffs without a reciprocal response. Sad that the world is having to look to China of all places to teach America not to fuck around.
Me: "America has had some truly awful genocidal presidents in the past and so in terms of the historical trend they're actually trending up, not because Trump is good but because the bar used to include literal slaveowners and the people who eradicated the indigenous population"
You: "KwarK said that Trump defeating Clinton was a good thing"
But if you think that's bad then remember the time that you said
GreenHorizons wrote: The Holocaust didn't happen and that makes me sad because I really wish it did
China is calling on the UK to help stand up to Trump's irrational trade policy
China has urged Britain to stand with it in support of international trade as Beijing seeks to rally support in its fight against Donald Trump’s tariffs.
“In the face of the challenges of unilateralism and protectionism, multilateralism is the only solution,” Chinese vice-minister for commerce Ling Ji told Britain’s trade minister, Douglas Alexander, in Beijing on Friday.
“China’s countermeasures against the US are a necessary response to safeguard its own interests. China is ready to work with the UK to support the multilateral trading system, injecting more certainty and stability into the world economy.” Alexander’s visit coincided with the latest trade war announcements from Beijing, which said it would raise the duty on US goods to 125 per cent and dismissed Trump’s tariffs as “a joke”.
Ling and Alexander “exchanged views” on Trump’s measures, according to China’s Commerce Ministry, which added: “Both sides agreed to … strengthen cooperation in trade, investment and supply chains.”
The ministry added that Alexander had said Britain was willing to work with China on free trade, market opening and to “jointly address the current challenges”.
I don't expect a lot from the UK regarding efforts to "jointly address the current challenges", but China just making the ask and the UK giving it lip service is significant.
China is gaining a lot of political capital from the US. As long as Trump is president I think it unlikely any EU member (apart from Hungary) would support his diplomatic policies for free (unless they already hold that stance). Which means anything they want done will cost them more due to less pressure being put on for the policy.
I think it will be interesting to see if in 4 years China has better relations with the EU than the US has. Where they currently dislike China due to multiple issues.
China is showing itself to be a better trade partner. The question is whether that will be enough to over look their horrible record on human rights, terrible damage to the environment, imperialistic intentions and so on are enough to keep them at arms length. As the US speed runs towards China on those fronts, I hope the world decides neither is worth doing business with, but I doubt it. I think short term self interest will rule the day and things won't change as much as we think or hope.
I really wonder what was the US plan with those tariffs against China. It would make more sense if not for the fact that US has moved almost all of its manufacturing abroad. In this tariff-standoff the country with production capabilities will win because they have an option to sell their stuff somewhere else whereas if you're only a consumer there is no good out for you.
Also, China has been preparing for this scenario for years now. They've reduced their exports to the US by 25% and to other G7 countries by almost 30% in the past 5 years.
There are some interesting developments though. Don't want to spew some conspiracy theories but it seems to me that maybe CIA is involved somehow. In the recent days there have been numerous fires at Chinese factories/manufacturing facilities, several of them happened on the same day which would point to a more concerted effort than random disgruntled employee taking revenge on their workplace.
I sincerely believe there was no plan, he and they are just making it up as they go along. Even the MAGA are having hard time making up reasons why these things make sense. And Trump using words like "instinctively" on how he's picking an choosing does not give me any confidence.
I would doubt the CIA would be that bold. Maybe it is just revolutionary's who are sick of billionaires getting richer, off their slave labour and horrible working conditions?
On April 14 2025 01:41 Billyboy wrote: I sincerely believe there was no plan, he and they are just making it up as they go along. Even the MAGA are having hard time making up reasons why these things make sense. And Trump using words like "instinctively" on how he's picking an choosing does not give me any confidence.
I would doubt the CIA would be that bold. Maybe it is just revolutionary's who are sick of billionaires getting richer, off their slave labour and horrible working conditions?
If this trade war triggered another revolution in China this would really be a crazy decade... Basically a dramatic upheaval of the current world order.
What could potentially happen: 1. Russia collapse. 2. US another great depression. 3. Revolution in China.
3 global superpowers going through serious internal turmoil. We would indeed be living in "interesting times."
On April 14 2025 01:41 Billyboy wrote: I sincerely believe there was no plan, he and they are just making it up as they go along. Even the MAGA are having hard time making up reasons why these things make sense. And Trump using words like "instinctively" on how he's picking an choosing does not give me any confidence.
I would doubt the CIA would be that bold. Maybe it is just revolutionary's who are sick of billionaires getting richer, off their slave labour and horrible working conditions?
If this trade war triggered another revolution in China this would really be a crazy decade... Basically a dramatic upheaval of the current world order.
It would be, I think it is as unlikely as it triggering one in America. But we seem to have "once in a generation" events at least annually now a days so who knows.
China has urged Britain to stand with it in support of international trade as Beijing seeks to rally support in its fight against Donald Trump’s tariffs.
“In the face of the challenges of unilateralism and protectionism, multilateralism is the only solution,” Chinese vice-minister for commerce Ling Ji told Britain’s trade minister, Douglas Alexander, in Beijing on Friday.
“China’s countermeasures against the US are a necessary response to safeguard its own interests. China is ready to work with the UK to support the multilateral trading system, injecting more certainty and stability into the world economy.” Alexander’s visit coincided with the latest trade war announcements from Beijing, which said it would raise the duty on US goods to 125 per cent and dismissed Trump’s tariffs as “a joke”.
Ling and Alexander “exchanged views” on Trump’s measures, according to China’s Commerce Ministry, which added: “Both sides agreed to … strengthen cooperation in trade, investment and supply chains.”
The ministry added that Alexander had said Britain was willing to work with China on free trade, market opening and to “jointly address the current challenges”.
I don't expect a lot from the UK regarding efforts to "jointly address the current challenges", but China just making the ask and the UK giving it lip service is significant.
Maybe they're ticked off about the Scunthorpe steel mill situation?
The only way this could get worse for China is if other countries implement anti dumping tariffs when China inevitably floods their markets with stuff the USA isn't touching.Pretty decent chance.
Funny how so many here are all like china is winning.
There’s tons of videos on WeChat where orders are being pushed back to non specific date or cancelling the order in production etc with vessels not leaving the docks.
manufacturing relies heavily on leverage and debt, its high capital investment (debt) and running cost (cash flow). This hurts China far more than the US.
The entire supply chain China been building will be massively disrupted with just one or two major parts of the chain having issue. We are talking about industrial zones that have schools and public services build up for the area.
Private companies have far more powerful in settling what the final changes would be like. They are not going to wait out just for a “maybe better” or wait till trump finishes his terms. Even if the tariff thing is renegotiated, everyone knows China is being targeted and will diversify.
China has unique advantages in manufacturing, but there are lots of parts that can be done elsewhere,
I am seeing so many wrong info videos like all the tariff will be paid by US taxpayers. how much of tariff will get passed down is upto the companies get it out of their profits and how much they can squeeze from the suppliers and middlemen, switch certain parts and split across the global customers pricing (if they choose to do so)
People who think China is going to win don't mean short term. They just know that something like a trade war takes discipline, thoughtfulness, the willingness to let your population suffer to some degree and so on. Trump has none of these, all he is accomplishing is making the USA a less trust worth trade partner than China, and everyone knows Trump is going to back down to China because he and his base won't be able to deal with prices doubling, tripling or more.
China is a totalitarian dictatorship, they give few fucks what happens to their populace, just their own massive wealth (which will be fine) and the long term glory of China.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AZsur6K.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://media.nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/08101829/Genshin-Impact-10-08-2020.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/p0tcKmf/China-weather.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338515966/figure/fig1/AS:941575727235074@1601500555238/Map-of-the-annual-average-temperature-in-modern-China-revised-from-Xu-and-Zhang-2017.png)
![[image loading]](https://img2.chinadaily.com.cn/images/202207/14/62cf60eaa310fd2bec9621cd.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://www.forbesindia.com/media/images/2022/Aug/img_191987_gettyimages-1414193221_bg.jpg)
