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I find it funny when people from China use the expression "western propaganda". Guess they deep inside know their whole media is controlled by state propaganda and implicitly extrapolate to other countries as having their own propaganda machines. They don't realize the media in developed countries are controlled by different entities and each has their own interests most related to financial matters. So, there's no synchronization. No single voice that dictates what should people "think".
It's also interesting to see how they rush to defend any attack on their leaders. When somebody criticizes my country political leaders, I will usually just add some of my own arguments. There's always something that those people that control politics do wrong. And even if somebody will make some critics that I find unfair, I might disagree but will inevitably add my own points to criticize.
For people from dictatorial countries however, their political leaders are doing everything well. Yes, there are problems in their country that are critical, but it's not their leader's fault. Something else is in the way. And the best candidate for that something else is of course some external force These things are so similar in all the dictatorship countries.
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On June 19 2022 22:18 arbiter_md wrote:I find it funny when people from China use the expression "western propaganda". Guess they deep inside know their whole media is controlled by state propaganda and implicitly extrapolate to other countries as having their own propaganda machines. They don't realize the media in developed countries are controlled by different entities and each has their own interests most related to financial matters. So, there's no synchronization. No single voice that dictates what should people "think". It's also interesting to see how they rush to defend any attack on their leaders. When somebody criticizes my country political leaders, I will usually just add some of my own arguments. There's always something that those people that control politics do wrong. And even if somebody will make some critics that I find unfair, I might disagree but will inevitably add my own points to criticize. For people from dictatorial countries however, their political leaders are doing everything well. Yes, there are problems in their country that are critical, but it's not their leader's fault. Something else is in the way. And the best candidate for that something else is of course some external force These things are so similar in all the dictatorship countries.
Did i do that ?
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Why do you keep insisting people travel to an area they think there are internment camps to uncover secrets of the ccp? Do you think that it's a compelling argument to dare people to get arrested by a dictatorship? I don't want to die or end up in a Chinese jail and I don't feel safe going to a nation that so clearly discriminates against foreigners. GH would never want to actually go to China even and he's trying his best to carry water for the "guys china doesn't have pollution it's just a bbc filter everyone keeps using to take pictures of smog" idea.
The whole part about the holocaust being known due to it being after the fact with monuments has no connection to modern internment camps that we've seen evidence for them existing. Just because your government denies things doesn't mean that you have to accept it wholesale. You are a human being capable of critical thinking and problem solving.
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I visted Shanghai about 5 years ago. Plane touched down and the air was a yellow fog. I was assured it was not normally like this, but it remained yellow for the entire time I was there.
The middle class and richer do their best to essentially live work and play in filtered air conditioned rooms and will not drink water from out of the tap. The poor may not have a choice. I was warned repeatedly not to drink tap water, not even if it was boiled. Don't know if things have changed since then.
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On June 20 2022 00:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I visted Shanghai about 5 years ago. Plane touched down and the air was a yellow fog. I was assured it was not normally like this, but it remained yellow for the entire time I was there.
The middle class and richer do their best to essentially live work and play in filtered air conditioned rooms and will not drink water from out of the tap. The poor may not have a choice. I was warned repeatedly not to drink tap water, not even if it was boiled. Don't know if things have changed since then.
that's true . i used to travel to shanghai in 2018.i could feel the bad air in most of region.(Especially in winter). for now ,i am in xi'an right now. the air is pretty good(still bad in winter) . but all of chinese dont drink tap water. It's a cultural difference .But the quality of China's tap water is really not good and cannot be drunk directly .If the water quality in China were as good as in UK, I might drink tap water as well.
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United States40778 Posts
It's not a cultural thing that y'all can't drink the water, it's that the water isn't safe. Humans drink water everywhere.
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On June 19 2022 22:48 Sermokala wrote: ... GH would never want to actually go to China even and he's trying his best to carry water for the "guys china doesn't have pollution it's just a bbc filter everyone keeps using to take pictures of smog" idea.
You guys want to pool up some money to pay for it, I'll go. Rumor is that we're on the precipice of losing democracy in the US anyway.
There was a time when China dismissed smoggy media as fog but they made a real commitment to addressing it (not fixing it overnight). They called it a "war against pollution".
Over the last few decades, China has gained a reputation for being one of the most polluted countries in the world. Yet, it hasn’t been in the top five since 2016...
Amid one of the worst stretches of air pollution in modern Chinese history, Premier Li Keqiang declared a “war against pollution” at the beginning of 2014 during the opening of China’s annual meeting of the National People’s Congress. The timing of the declaration—at the kickoff of a nationally televised conference typically reserved for discussing key economic targets—marked an important shift in the country’s long-standing policy of prioritizing economic growth over concerns about environmental protection. It also marked an important change in the government’s official rhetoric about the country’s air quality. In the past, state media had deflected concerns about air quality by claiming poor visibility was due to “fog” and that emissions had no effect on levels of smog. Now, the government stressed environmental responsibility, stating the country could not “pollute now and clean up later” and would fight pollution with “an iron fist.”
Due to these actions, all the targets set by the National Air Quality Action Plan, which expired in 2017, were met. China’s government, however, remained acutely aware that the country’s air pollution was still a serious problem. To achieve further improvements, the Chinese government announced in July 2018 a new plan for 2018-2020. Regions that did not meet the national air quality standard of 35 µg/m3would need to reduce particulate pollution by 18 percent relative to 2015 levels. Though the national targets are less ambitious than those set for 2013-2017, some prefectures set more stringent targets for themselves in their local five-year plans. For example, Beijing committed itself to a 30 percent reduction from 2015 levels by 2020 and as per the latest satellite data, it ended up reducing pollution by 55.5 percent in this period.
The Chinese government’s air pollution reduction strategies have largely allowed the country to win its war against pollution. Between 2013 and 2020, particulate pollution exposure declined by an average of 39.6 percent across the Chinese population. If that reduction is sustained, it would equate to a gain in average life expectancy of 2 years. To place China’s success impact into context, the reductions in pollution account for all of the global average decline since 2013.
To put the scale and speed of China’s progress into context, it’s useful to compare it to the United States and Europe after their periods of industrialization. In the United States, following the passage of the Clean Air Act, it took almost three decades and five recessions to achieve about the same percent decline. In Europe, after their environment agency was created, it took about two decades and two recessions to achieve approximately China’s percent reduction.
aqli.epic.uchicago.edu
They still have plenty of work to do though.
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That is good and bad. You have to be pretty horrific and large to make a noticable global impact. And they are still the worlds worst polluter.
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To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it.
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I have to create an account because you are talking about MY country. China launched her 3rd carrier-type003 the day before yesterday, but don't worry too much, it's made in China
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Its kind of a moot point about economic inequalities when the poorer nations will disproportionately be the losers with climate change. When a nation pollutes its arable land and builds ghost cities full of concrete coffins on the arable land it didn't polute it can't produce food to feed its people. When the seas become barren of fish because of the fleets of trawling fishing vessels going around exterminating marine life it will be the nation that did the trawling that will be hurt the most. When global food production takes a major hit due to the world becoming dryer and hotter the nations who can't produce food on their own will be hurt more than the food exporting nations. When global average temperatures in the summer exceed the wet blub threshold the nations that can't afford to air-condition its people will be the ones to experience mass die-offs due to heat. When you pollute your rivers to the point you can't drink from them the nations that can keep water treatment plants online will be able to water their people for a lot cheaper than the ones that can't.
The effects of climate change won't be felt equally. People will remember those that refused to do anything to prevent those effects.
To develop the economy there must be many schools. The industrial revolution wasn't a possibility before there were educated workers to work complex machines, to build them, to maintain them, and to create new products for them to make.
On June 20 2022 11:27 SSIII wrote:I have to create an account because you are talking about MY country. China launched her 3rd carrier-type003 the day before yesterday, but don't worry too much, it's made in China I mean no one is worrying. The first was bought from Ukraine as a soviet model the second has a ramp-like British harrier carriers and this third one isn't even finished. Its going right back into the slip to work on its launch catapult. Its not even going to be nuclear powered like the one the french have and the 11 America has built now.
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On June 20 2022 10:25 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it.
The expectation from westerners is that China go from struggling to feed ~20% of the global population with only 7% of the worlds arable land in an unindustrialized country to surpassing the US and Europe's ecological policies. Simply doing it more efficiently than they did isn't enough for them. Many westerners find it contemptable, as laughably ridiculous as that is.
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On June 20 2022 12:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 10:25 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it. The expectation from westerners is that China go from struggling to feed ~20% of the global population with only 7% of the worlds arable land in an unindustrialized country to surpassing the US and Europe's ecological policies. Simply doing it more efficiently than they did isn't enough for them. Many westerners find it contemptable, as laughably ridiculous as that is. Nope.
Btw tech now is different than 100 years ago.
Why does it take so many billionares and millionaires to feed people?
Communist billionares are polluting like crazy to feed people but capitalist billionares are not?
Tickle down effect?
Maybe they should stop making coal powerplants and at least hold up to their own pledge. Should communists really be caring about weath and power over the world? Im sure the new aircraft carrier is to deliver food.
I do not think anyone would argue with you that China has the worlds mpst efficent dictatorshp, however that comes with more bad than good.
Would you say Mao China was an utter failure? Why are they 100s of years behind and just getting people out of thus now?
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I don't know what is like in other countries but the spirit of collectivism is rooted in East Asia. I mean, the leader of an east-asian country is not only a leader, it is more like a symbol. If you make jokes of the emperor of japan, the japnese will give you a pitiful look. If you make jokes or criticize on Xi,the Chinese will not argue with you because we think it is nonsense to do so. Those figures are far away from dailly life. I will not be pissed if you criticize on CCP or Xi , but I do feel uncomfortable if you insult the Chinese people, because most Chinese people are patriots. China is one single country, and if you look into european history, it is a history of families and tribes, China is quite different. For example, you might be laughing if I say people in Texas are all fools, but the Chinese will not find it funny if you say people in certain parts of China are all fools. And for the "Tiananmen square event" ,common Chinese do know about these things, tanks running over students/soldiers get killed brutally by civilians..bla bla bla... what do we think about this event? Well, the student were doing protests with good intentions but unfortunately "utilized" by external powers, the organizers flied to America the next day, how can they run so quickly if there were no contacts. Actually the Tiananmen square event is not weakening but strenthing the CCP's leadership. I think the students are really heroes, the CCP did improved alot since then, they focused on self-critism and corruption problems. As a generation living "under the red flags", I know everything about brain-wash, I have political classes even in childhood, the proganda in china is quite different form that of "soviet union" or "north korea", it emphasizes that the people rather than "certain leader" plays the key role in history. and the principle of CCP is to serve the people...bla blabla Now I have to have lunch.
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I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept.
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On June 20 2022 12:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 12:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2022 10:25 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it. The expectation from westerners is that China go from struggling to feed ~20% of the global population with only 7% of the worlds arable land in an unindustrialized country to surpassing the US and Europe's ecological policies. Simply doing it more efficiently than they did isn't enough for them. Many westerners find it contemptable, as laughably ridiculous as that is. Nope. Btw tech now is different than 100 years ago. Why does it take so many billionares and millionaires to feed people? Communist billionares are polluting like crazy to feed people but capitalist billionares are not? Tickle down effect? Maybe they should stop making coal powerplants and at least hold up to their own pledge. Should communists really be caring about weath and power over the world? Im sure the new aircraft carrier is to deliver food. I do not think anyone would argue with you that China has the worlds mpst efficent dictatorshp, however that comes with more bad than good. Would you say Mao China was an utter failure? Why are they 100s of years behind and just getting people out of thus now? Do they? None of the Asian tigers were democracies when they started industrializing. Singapore is much more succesful and they're still an autocracy. China's growth after Deng's reforms is impressive but not unique.
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On June 20 2022 16:29 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 12:50 JimmiC wrote:On June 20 2022 12:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2022 10:25 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: To develop the economy, there must be many factories. China has not yet reached the high-tech economic era. The previous economic development in Europe and the United States was also based on pollution. Europe and the United States were a hundred years ago, and China was a few decades ago. Vietnam's economy is developing rapidly. It is also because a large number of factories are stationed in Vietnam. I believe Vietnam will also have a lot of pollution. Because China is too big, the pollution will be very serious.
The Chinese government has always stressed the need for economic transformation, the closure of polluting enterprises, and the transformation of labor-intensive enterprises into high-tech enterprises. In fact, it is very difficult, because there are still many poor places in China. It is good to have factories. Only economically developed places can do it. The expectation from westerners is that China go from struggling to feed ~20% of the global population with only 7% of the worlds arable land in an unindustrialized country to surpassing the US and Europe's ecological policies. Simply doing it more efficiently than they did isn't enough for them. Many westerners find it contemptable, as laughably ridiculous as that is. Nope. Btw tech now is different than 100 years ago. Why does it take so many billionares and millionaires to feed people? Communist billionares are polluting like crazy to feed people but capitalist billionares are not? Tickle down effect? Maybe they should stop making coal powerplants and at least hold up to their own pledge. Should communists really be caring about weath and power over the world? Im sure the new aircraft carrier is to deliver food. I do not think anyone would argue with you that China has the worlds mpst efficent dictatorshp, however that comes with more bad than good. Would you say Mao China was an utter failure? Why are they 100s of years behind and just getting people out of thus now? Do they? None of the Asian tigers were democracies when they started industrializing. Singapore is much more succesful and they're still an autocracy. China's growth after Deng's reforms is impressive but not unique. Most efficient doctatorship that uses commusim nranding then?
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On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept. They were banned because they were pretending to be Chinese. It continually happens, and is likely happening now too. To the China one country thing, people in Tibet Xinjiang, Hong Kong and more would disagree.
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On June 20 2022 22:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!"
I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you.
by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept. They were banned because they were pretending to be Chinese. It continually happens, and is likely happening now too. To the China one country thing, people in Tibet Xinjiang, Hong Kong and more would disagree.
Genuine question, how are we telling who is a real Chinese person and who isn’t?
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