EPTThe China Politics Thread - Page 20
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14187 Posts
On June 20 2022 16:08 SSIII wrote: I found the westners think that a complete democracy is a must for a modern country, otherwise it must be an evil regime. Democracy is not a flower rooted in modern soil, it appears alongside the beginning of mankind, at the stone-age, the primitive select strong/wise leaders to lead their hunting, we can imagine a funny story like this Once upon a time tribe A with 2 leaders once encounted another tribe B which had only 1 leader, and people of tribe A said that tribe B is evil because they have dictatorship, people in tribe B said" we are ok about that, we like to have 1 leader only, and we tried to have 2 in the past, it often cause more fights between us, so we keep to have 1 only." tribe A people said "absolute power lead to absolute corruptions! you empty-heads!" tribe B people said "our leader is taking us to a promised land where we have meat everyday! for everyone!" tribe A people said "no ,you fools! there no such a thing in the world! the strong should have more food, and the weak should die, it is the natural selections!" tribe B people said " no, we saw you abandon your old people in the last plague, may the god pour great fires on you!" I didn't mean tribe A or B is more rightous than the other, I mean if you live in such an imperfect world, and noone yet had a perfect solution for everything, you just have to accept things that are very different to you. by the way, I saw some Chinese were banned in this post, while some posters with more mean and racial words are still posting here, that is also something people have to accept. Ok so im not even going to try and dig into that weird parable you just whipped out because I have wayy too many questions about it. What are the "mean and racial" words and the posters you are referring to there? | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
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SSIII
China60 Posts
On June 21 2022 00:47 Sermokala wrote: Ok so im not even going to try and dig into that weird parable you just whipped out because I have wayy too many questions about it. What are the "mean and racial" words and the posters you are referring to there? Look, I am not here to fight, the story I made up suggests nothing but that democracy is not something new and rare, and some peoples in asia/africa/latinamerica tend to have 1 leader, just repect the differences. And for that 'mean and racial words' thing you can find in the first 10 pages, but I guess you might not find it "offensive" because you are not the target | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
Comunism is not evil at its birth, it's original purpose is to abolish the system of exploitation of man by man，create a world without classes, a world everyone will enjoy. However, the dream too big to realize, Karl Max didn't show the way to achieve comunism, I think you are learned enough about his theories. The russian rushed to achieve it in a dumb way, simply put massive people in Gulag to eliminate classes and enemies inside the people, which make everyone start thinking that comunism is something really evil. The Chinese never set up such labor-camps, even in the "cultural revolution" times, tens of thousands chinese died abnormally in the 1960s-1970s due to famine and "classical fight", my grandpa was a high rank police officer then, he was beaten half death simply because people suspect that he had some problems. Everyone was crazy in that period, the later Chinese leaders like Deng and Hu were mistreated too. That crazy times is gone, Mao is critized widely after his death, he is considered "30%fault70%right". The policies to realize communism is more elastic in China, Deng said we have to achieve socialism first, it might take 100 years, so he started the "open policy" and china today is like a half-socalism-half-captalism mixture. I am not misleading this thread to discussions on NK or Communism, I wrote this to help you understand China. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14187 Posts
On June 21 2022 10:49 SSIII wrote: Look, I am not here to fight, the story I made up suggests nothing but that democracy is not something new and rare, and some peoples in asia/africa/latinamerica tend to have 1 leader, just repect the differences. And for that 'mean and racial words' thing you can find in the first 10 pages, but I guess you might not find it "offensive" because you are not the target You can't just show up to a conversation, dismiss everything people say, and then instantly say "gee I don't want to fight guess I win". You can't just say "people said racist and mean things about Chinese people" and then instantly not have any sort of example to point to, with the implication of saying "just trust me you're racist and mean". What you are doing is making statements and treating them like arguments. They don't do anything, there is no point to you doing this. Why are you putting the minimum effort into posting things and expecting people to change anything about what they think? No I'm not going to "respect" the differences when my standard of living in a democracy is objectionable better than the standard of living in nations that live in dictatorships. no democracy isn't "new or rare" but its still objectionably better than every other system tried. The problems with governance don't come when people want more leaders the problem with governance come when people want less. Whats the news about evergrande? I haven't seen anything new about that on my end other than their foreign creditors saying they're in default. What are they saying about it in china? | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
As the chinese people are indeferent on politics, we find is more or less rediculous that the foreigners care about chinese politics more than us  | ||
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Sermokala
United States14187 Posts
On June 21 2022 11:25 SSIII wrote: I think the westners must be curious how common Chinese view on NorthKorea. I can talk about this because it is forbidden in chinese forums to talk about NK. I dislike NK, the regime is definitely evil, the people of NK is fooled and completely brainwashed, I even think that our goverment should not protect it. However, countries's interests surpass personal feelings, I can not do anything about it. Comunism is not evil at its birth, it's original purpose is to abolish the system of exploitation of man by man，create a world without classes, a world everyone will enjoy. However, the dream too big to realize, Karl Max didn't show the way to achieve comunism, I think you are learned enough about his theories. The russian rushed to achieve it in a dumb way, simply put massive people in Gulag to eliminate classes and enemies inside the people, which make everyone start thinking that comunism is something really evil. The Chinese never set up such labor-camps, even in the "cultural revolution" times, tens of thousands chinese died abnormally in the 1960s-1970s due to famine and "classical fight", my grandpa was a high rank police officer then, he was beaten half death simply because people suspect that he had some problems. Everyone was crazy in that period, the later Chinese leaders like Deng and Hu were mistreated too. That crazy times is gone, Mao is critized widely after his death, he is considered "30%fault70%right". The policies to realize communism is more elastic in China, Deng said we have to achieve socialism first, it might take 100 years, so he started the "open policy" and china today is like a half-socalism-half-captalism mixture. I am not misleading this thread to discussions on NK or Communism, I wrote this to help you understand China. Is that the number they say died in the famines during the great leap forward? But no no I totally get it. I think everyone kinda understands that NK is a buffer state from the cold war to prevent another invasion through Korea into the Chinese mainland. This would be a valid concern and something the Chinese have shown they're willing to fight over. the problem with NK now it that its 2020 and they might have nukes now. Young people in SK do not want reunification and their recent election has shown that's where the nations attitude is shifting. A deal to demilitarize the Korean peninsula of the west (and japan) in exchange for peaceful reunification is something that should have been done decades ago. With how Hong Kong is going and like I said the attitude of SK to reunification that deal just isn't going to be made anymore. Its now the USA's Isreal and no one has any idea how to solve the issue anymore. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14187 Posts
On June 21 2022 11:40 SSIII wrote: So you might start to understand why the Chinese are not really willing to talk about politics, people suffered alot in the "class struggle“times ”,we are tired at political debates, and political talks are somewhat not appealed in china,whatever the -ism is, is not something we really care, just like what Deng said -" white cat, black cat, who catch the rat is good cat". As the chinese people are indeferent on politics, we find is more or less rediculous that the foreigners care about chinese politics more than us We understand why you are not willing to talk about politics. You are not free to express your speech in china and have tow worry about government retaliation. I really don't think the Chinese are "indifferent on politics" they just don't want people to randomly shit on them. But saying as an American who gets that from the euros all the time, you can't just tell them to stop. They're free to do whatever they want and you need to be able to at least discuss it if you want to respond to it. If you can't discuss it then don't respond to it. There are a lot of things we can talk about china that isn't ... shall we say "offensive" to the CCP. Myself I'm fascinated if the "rent an electric scooter" culture is something that works better than it does in America. It doesn't work here because of the poor geography and larger size of Americans but do they have those things and if they work. | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
On June 21 2022 11:39 Sermokala wrote: You can't just show up to a conversation, dismiss everything people say, and then instantly say "gee I don't want to fight guess I win". You can't just say "people said racist and mean things about Chinese people" and then instantly not have any sort of example to point to, with the implication of saying "just trust me you're racist and mean". What you are doing is making statements and treating them like arguments. They don't do anything, there is no point to you doing this. Why are you putting the minimum effort into posting things and expecting people to change anything about what they think? No I'm not going to "respect" the differences when my standard of living in a democracy is objectionable better than the standard of living in nations that live in dictatorships. no democracy isn't "new or rare" but its still objectionably better than every other system tried. The problems with governance don't come when people want more leaders the problem with governance come when people want less. Whats the news about evergrande? I haven't seen anything new about that on my end other than their foreign creditors saying they're in default. What are they saying about it in china? I am expecting anyone to change anyting about what they think, if people are not willing to change, no one can change him. I just showed my own personal perspectives, maybe a common chinese' personal perspectives are so different that it seems to be a propaganda ：） I am not, I swear, if my personal perspectives seems so odd, I think I'd better stop. You can choose not to "respect" the differences, it does not matter, but if the US goverment learned to respect the differences, many wars could be avoided. As for the grandever company, I don't know much about it, I heard it's in heavy debt and have a restructuring plan in the future. | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
On June 21 2022 11:45 Sermokala wrote: Is that the number they say died in the famines during the great leap forward? I am surprised that you have heard of "the great leap", I don't know if the gov had given any number on the famine, "the great leap" happened in 1958-1960, and the great famine was in "1961-963", in common chinese's memories, the famine caused "几十万” death(几十=dozens,万=10000), which is hundreds of thounds, foreign scholar gave a number of "20-40 millions" which is approx. 4.4~8.8% of the population in China then. I think the number is too high. | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
On June 21 2022 11:50 Sermokala wrote: We understand why you are not willing to talk about politics. You are not free to express your speech in china and have tow worry about government retaliation. I really don't think the Chinese are "indifferent on politics" they just don't want people to randomly shit on them. But saying as an American who gets that from the euros all the time, you can't just tell them to stop. They're free to do whatever they want and you need to be able to at least discuss it if you want to respond to it. If you can't discuss it then don't respond to it. There are a lot of things we can talk about china that isn't ... shall we say "offensive" to the CCP. Myself I'm fascinated if the "rent an electric scooter" culture is something that works better than it does in America. It doesn't work here because of the poor geography and larger size of Americans but do they have those things and if they work. The situation here is like this, from my personal perspectives. If you make a thread with the title "CCP must fall" or something like that, it will be deleted sooner or later, nothing will happen to you. But if you make such threads like everyday, or make several threads on politics, maybe someday the NationalSecurityAgency will ask you to "have a tea", they will ask your purpose, try to find if you are a sycho or a spy or some 1450(taiwan intelligence funded personels who shits on chinese web), normally you will be fine, they don't throw you into jail. If you make a thread like "millions Uighurs in reeducational camps", they may arrest you for "spreading rumors" or "threating to disrupt the nation". I post alot on politics here, my IP could easily be tracked, I am not worried to be "asked for a tea" someday, but you are right ,I'd better keep low | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24252 Posts
On June 21 2022 13:31 SSIII wrote: The situation here is like this, from my personal perspectives. If you make a thread with the title "CCP must fall" or something like that, it will be deleted sooner or later, nothing will happen to you. But if you make such threads like everyday, or make several threads on politics, maybe someday the NationalSecurityAgency will ask you to "have a tea", they will ask your purpose, try to find if you are a sycho or a spy or some 1450(taiwan intelligence funded personels who shits on chinese web), normally you will be fine, they don't throw you into jail. If you make a thread like "millions Uighurs in reeducational camps", they may arrest you for "spreading rumors" or "threating to disrupt the nation". I post alot on politics here, my IP could easily be tracked, I am not worried to be "asked for a tea" someday, but you are right ,I'd better keep low I think dispelling the idea that being even remotely critical of the CCP will get you locked up or worse at the drop of a hat is pretty important. There are certainly different restrictions and solutions to speech western governments like I live under in the US and governments like China deem undesirable, as well as different perceptions of how that impacts citizens. It's not like any country has struck some perfect balance that can be effortlessly applied globally though. It's with that in mind I think people can take a more curious than critical perspective on what China's censorship on what we in the west refer to as "free speech" is like for regular people. | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On June 21 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: Very doubtful. In the US pol threads there has been all sorts of kill all billionaires and other shit that is as bad and worse and no one comes to the door. No one is checking what North Americans say on social media let alone message boards. People drive around where I live with "fuck Trudeau" bumper stickers, some shaped like a hand with a middle finger up. There hats, tshirts, and more memorabilia, no one ever gets pulled over, let alone arrested. There are watchlists though, for people who do specifically take extra steps like trying to find contact information for known terrorist organizations or bomb recipes or whatever. Whether they are effective or not is another story entirely, since there's been quite a few people who have announced on the internet that they intend to kill people and then end up doing so without being impeded by the authorities. As for threatening posts like that in the west, the responsibility usually is on the target of the threat to start any sort of legal action. Most websites have policies that stifle that sort of thing, like obviously here on teamliquid you aren't really going to be making posts that are specifically trying to drum up support for murdering people. At least that's my impression. Jokingly saying "eat the rich" is much different. It's been very interesting reading your posts though SSIII, it's not often I get to hear stuff from people in mainland China. Hope everything is going well for you over there! | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
On June 21 2022 14:15 goiflin wrote: It's been very interesting reading your posts though SSIII, it's not often I get to hear stuff from people in mainland China. Hope everything is going well for you over there! thanks, mate,SSIII stands for one of my favorite PC game SuddenStrike3, SS4 is not good enough. | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
On June 21 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: Very doubtful. In the US pol threads there has been all sorts of kill all billionaires and other shit that is as bad and worse and no one comes to the door. No one is checking what North Americans say on social media let alone message boards. People drive around where I live with "fuck Trudeau" bumper stickers, some shaped like a hand with a middle finger up. There hats, tshirts, and more memorabilia, no one ever gets pulled over, let alone arrested. I believe you , that's what I saw in western movies. Trudeau is a politician, he is not very much different from any other politician, more like an emploree to do the government work. In China, supreme leader is not simply an emploree to govern, he is also a spiritual symbol of the nation,like a parent to all families，I think no Chinese will put a sticker with “Fuck Xi” or "Fuck CCP" on his car unless he or she does not approve himself/herself to be a Chinese. Will I do this if it is allowed? Clearly NO | ||
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SSIII
China60 Posts
I have never seen any "fxxk ccp" or similar stickers. The gas price today is more than 9yuan/liter, which is $ 1.5 per liter, or $ 5.5 per gallon（u.s), so many people consider to sell old cars for new energy vehicles. | ||
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pebble444
Italy2503 Posts
Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either. Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No. Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really. (If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today. Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back. But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check. Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore. | ||
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