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On June 21 2022 15:54 pebble444 wrote:
Is there freedom of religion in China to practice publicly and peacefully your religion (I.e. the freedom to meet and pray in a mosque, or church, or whatever religion?) no.
Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either.
Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No.
Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really.
(If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today.
Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back.
But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore.
I'm getting off work now, 5p.m here, I don't have too much time to reply, but I think none of your opnions is ture. A short example: you said "The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today", would you please use you brain? Will any country be stable at this male/female ratio? I checked on web, there are 7 official main population census in China， which is a basic data for many policies, the male/female ratio is 107.56(1953), 105.46(1964), 106.3(1982), 106.6(1990), 106.74（2000），105.2（2010），105.07（2020）.
http://news.hsw.cn/system/2021/0511/1322691.shtml
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On June 21 2022 21:54 JimmiC wrote:
Could you have a emperor xi with a red circle with a red line through it sign or bumper sticker? Or anything that indicates that you are not pro Xi or the ccp?
if someday I am so disappointed at him, I could do that, it is just a sticker on the car, this no such a crime of "insulting the leader", so I guess I will not be arrested for this sticker, BUT, someone who noticed this could snap it will his smartphone and spread the picture on the web, if it is widely spread and caused some influence, I think the local police will call me to have a talk. Unlike the soviet union, there's no plainclothes policemen keeping eyes on people(there are some plainclothes policemen at railway/bus/airline stations) , but I don't want to get into such trouble if not necessary.
When I was a child, I often see a crazyman cursing CCP loudly on the street to my school, nothing happend to him, everyone knows he must be mistreated in the cultural revolution times.
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@pebble444 It is my gaming time now, but I dropped to answer your questions, you are welcome. I searched on my smart phone, there are approx.12,000 churches in China, over 200 in shanghai, and in my small city , about 8~9. I knew some neighbors join church activities, mainly the old people. Most Chinese are atheist indeed, and in comunism theories, the working class are their own saviors
I saw Uighurs and the Hui people(another minority who believe in muslim too) do their prayers in their temple or just on the sidewalk in my city and other cities. However , after the covid , I never see that scene again.
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On June 21 2022 18:10 SSIII wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2022 15:54 pebble444 wrote:
Is there freedom of religion in China to practice publicly and peacefully your religion (I.e. the freedom to meet and pray in a mosque, or church, or whatever religion?) no.
Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either.
Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No.
Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really.
(If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today.
Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back.
But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore.
I'm getting off work now, 5p.m here, I don't have too much time to reply, but I think none of your opnions is ture. A short example: you said "The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today", would you please use you brain? Will any country be stable at this male/female ratio? I checked on web, there are 7 official main population census in China， which is a basic data for many policies, the male/female ratio is 107.56(1953), 105.46(1964), 106.3(1982), 106.6(1990), 106.74（2000），105.2（2010），105.07（2020）. http://news.hsw.cn/system/2021/0511/1322691.shtml
Yeah the 3-1 ratio being male that pebble mentioned is way off. Census data summarised in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China . There are more detailed breakdowns by age groups but the child/adult/elderly:
Age group | Male | Female | Total | Percent
0–14 | 119 794 508 | 101 528 113 | 221 322 621 | 16.61
15–64 | 505 329 061 | 487 232 029 | 992 561 090 | 74.47
65+ | 57 205 535 | 61 721 623 | 118 927 158 | 8.92
Edit: also pebble444 can you expand on this:
Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No.
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On June 21 2022 22:29 SSIII wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2022 21:54 JimmiC wrote:
Could you have a emperor xi with a red circle with a red line through it sign or bumper sticker? Or anything that indicates that you are not pro Xi or the ccp? if someday I am so disappointed at him, I could do that, it is just a sticker on the car, this no such a crime of "insulting the leader", so I guess I will not be arrested for this sticker, BUT, someone who noticed this could snap it will his smartphone and spread the picture on the web, if it is widely spread and caused some influence, I think the local police will call me to have a talk. Unlike the soviet union, there's no plainclothes policemen keeping eyes on people(there are some plainclothes policemen at railway/bus/airline stations) , but I don't want to get into such trouble if not necessary. When I was a child, I often see a crazyman cursing CCP loudly on the street to my school, nothing happend to him, everyone knows he must be mistreated in the cultural revolution times.
See, but this is kind of the thing. You are always aware of the fact that if you do something which is contrary to the ruling party, and police gets to know it, they will bother you about it. So you basically constantly need a mental filter to consider if the thing you say may get you in trouble.
This is not the case here. If i have a sticker similar to the one mentioned above, but with any german politician on it, under no circumstances will the police call me to "have a talk". If i don't like something, i can just say so, without fear of repressions, or police coming to "have a talk".
And honestly, the way you handle Xi is kind of on point here. "Spiritual leader" "If i ever were dissatisfied (which i obviously not am), then i could do something like that, but obviously no one would ever really do that, because Xi is so awesome"
If that is really the consensus in China, then something weird is going on. Either people don't dare to say what they really believe, or they are fed a very restricted diet of information. No matter how good a leader is, there will always be people who are dissatisfied, or want something else. If you cannot find them, then they are hiding, which means that something weird is going on.
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Yes the 3 to 1 ratio is off. Maybe the problem is not as magnified as that. But a documentary I saw interviewing a Chinese village that women there where with ptsd because more than one where pushed to abort by their husbands, because the fetus looked like a girl, and the family where terrified of pro-creating more than one child (the infamous one child rule at the time).
Even the retired doctor stated it was normal practice to abort females at the time. One family, who decided to have the baby female, was sort of looked at later on as the village hero.
Again, these where interviews with Chinese people.
It’s possible that those who are dissatisfied, maybe do not have an internet connection to complain about it.
Seems like online and offline, the Chinese people who do somewhat express themselves on politics, economics and human rights, have a very dystopic version of what is going on, and never critisize for any reason the goverment. Which of course is the primary sign of a de facto dictatorship.
Another reason could be that people who are being oppressed speak a much more limited version of English.
One Tibetan man I met openly told me that he left Tibet because the occupation was not allowing him to lead peaceful life there, and he told me about his friends being harassed by police. He said people there tried to live their lives as best as they could considering the Chinese occupation.
Another thing that recalls of the oppressive nature of the goverment in China, is the forced 1 time zone policy for the whole country. In another interview on another documentary, this Chinese man had two clocks, one for official Beijing time, and the other what he called the “sun” time, because, he said, that he could not get used to seeing time and sunset/sunrise where totally off related to that.
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On June 21 2022 22:43 emperorchampion wrote:Edit: also pebble444 can you expand on this: Show nested quote +Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No.
In china You cannot buy and own a house in your name. What is done is you lease it long term from the goverment. Not sure of the exact details, like people actually buy houses and apartments, but it’s not legally theirs. This way the goverment can easily kick you out should it decides it needs the space for some public works.
In the construction of the hugest hydroelectric plant in the world, this was the case. Millions of people where displaced to make way for the country massive need of power.
Reports have shown that uygers are not allowed to leave their province, to move freely to other parts of China, unless they want to go to Kazakhstan, which is mostly a Muslim country,
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I’ m actually curious what the Chinese Wikipedia page says about this topic:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AZsur6K.jpg)
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On June 21 2022 13:35 SSIII wrote:
I was wondering , not sure that if you make several threads like "Republicans should all die" or " I swear to kill every republicans someday", will FBI or CIA come to your door?
You can say almost anything you want. The only times it becomes something they can investigate or arrest you is if you call for others to actually do something or if you specifically mention who you want to kill.
I want to kill a republican us president: legal.
I want to kill trump: not legal.
It's also legal to say that in public under the context of mentioning that it would be illegal to say that.
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MLK, Fred Hampton, and many others would disagree with this "we can say what we want" experience. They were labeled enemies of the state and Fred Hampton was assassinated by the FBI and local PD without committing any crime.
There's a long history of arresting, harassing, and killing political dissenters in the US and even people that just capture police brutality on camera and have the audacity to make it public.
EDIT: A more recent iteration was the whole "Black Identity Extremist" thing
+ Show Spoiler +Then you have gangs like the NYPD, and Chicago PD known to rampantly harass, 'stop and frisk', and brutalize innocent people for being Black.
Then there's the NSA and others known to have engaged in massive illegal domestic spying without consequence (is it really illegal for them to do it if there's no consequences?).
Also there are still indigenous people alive today that survived the North American Indian schools designed to genocidally remove them.
The US highway system was explicitly used to destroy Black neighborhoods and disrupt poor (predominately Black and Latino) people's access to infrastructure.
A reasonable case could be made that China is behind the US in addressing some of these things, but to pretend like eminent domain, government repression, and a lack of rights for minorities hasn't been part and parcel of the development of the US is disingenuous at best.
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On June 22 2022 01:46 GreenHorizons wrote:MLK, Fred Hampton, and many others would disagree with this "we can say what we want" experience. They were labeled enemies of the state and Fred Hampton was assassinated by the FBI and local PD without committing any crime. There's a long history of arresting, harassing, and killing political dissenters in the US and even people that just capture police brutality on camera and have the audacity to make it public. EDIT: A more recent iteration was the whole "Black Identity Extremist" thing + Show Spoiler +Then you have gangs like the NYPD, and Chicago PD known to rampantly harass, 'stop and frisk', and brutalize innocent people for being Black.
Then there's the NSA and others known to have engaged in massive illegal domestic spying without consequence (is it really illegal for them to do it if there's no consequences?).
Also there are still indigenous people alive today that survived the North American Indian schools designed to genocidally remove them.
The US highway system was explicitly used to destroy Black neighborhoods and disrupt poor (predominately Black and Latino) people's access to infrastructure. but to pretend like eminent domain, government repression, and a lack of rights for minorities hasn't been part and parcel of the development of the US is disingenuous at best.
This is just hilarious. GH you can't just whataboutism your way through arguments and then throw out that insane statement like the situation is anyway comparable. There is a series of problems but the government isn't actively sealing people into their homes when they want to or breaking into your home to send you off to a camp. Not even the GOP could get away with "control your hearts desire for freedom". We're talking about 2022 not comparing previous generations of the US with the current situation in china to justify whats going on. You can't live in the past if you want to improve the future.
Expanding access to urban centers from the cheap land outside of the city limits doesn't constitute "explicitly used to destroy black neighborhoods and disrupt poor peoples access to infrastructure". If you want to complain about the jobs that Minorities were relying on in inner cities, those went to china and other places due to globalism.
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On June 22 2022 05:02 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2022 01:46 GreenHorizons wrote:MLK, Fred Hampton, and many others would disagree with this "we can say what we want" experience. They were labeled enemies of the state and Fred Hampton was assassinated by the FBI and local PD without committing any crime. There's a long history of arresting, harassing, and killing political dissenters in the US and even people that just capture police brutality on camera and have the audacity to make it public. EDIT: A more recent iteration was the whole "Black Identity Extremist" thing + Show Spoiler +Then you have gangs like the NYPD, and Chicago PD known to rampantly harass, 'stop and frisk', and brutalize innocent people for being Black.
Then there's the NSA and others known to have engaged in massive illegal domestic spying without consequence (is it really illegal for them to do it if there's no consequences?).
Also there are still indigenous people alive today that survived the North American Indian schools designed to genocidally remove them.
The US highway system was explicitly used to destroy Black neighborhoods and disrupt poor (predominately Black and Latino) people's access to infrastructure. but to pretend like eminent domain, government repression, and a lack of rights for minorities hasn't been part and parcel of the development of the US is disingenuous at best. This is just hilarious. GH you can't just whataboutism your way through arguments and then throw out that insane statement like the situation is anyway comparable. There is a series of problems but the government isn't actively sealing people into their homes when they want to or breaking into your home to send you off to a camp. Not even the GOP could get away with "control your hearts desire for freedom". We're talking about 2022 not comparing previous generations of the US with the current situation in china to justify whats going on. You can't live in the past if you want to improve the future. Expanding access to urban centers from the cheap land outside of the city limits doesn't constitute "explicitly used to destroy black neighborhoods and disrupt poor peoples access to infrastructure". If you want to complain about the jobs that Minorities were relying on in inner cities, those went to china and other places due to globalism.
Call it what you want and dismiss it if you wish but I specifically referenced Hampton because he'd be younger (and a helluva lot better) than the current President if he wasn't assassinated by the government and the FBI's contemporary Black Identity Extremist designation to illustrate it's not a relic of the past.
What's ridiculous is pretending like an ACAB bumper sticker and some cannabis (or drugs police plant) can't get you thrown into prisons the UN say engage in torture or worse. That's a reality for millions of people in the US today.
As for breaking into homes and locking you up, the supreme court just made that a lot easier for the feds to get away with. There's an ongoing media campaign that is also insisting we're a couple elections from losing democracy and descending into the US's reactionary past losing what progress can be claimed to have been made in the last decades as well (abortion rights are gone soon too).
Despite your strawman and dusty platitudes, I also specifically said a reasonable argument could be made that China is behind the US on addressing some these things as well.
Lastly on the highway system, I'm talking about places that explicitly used highways to destroy and segregate poor, Black and Latino neighborhoods.
The engineers designing the road networks saw their potential as tools of so-called “urban renewal,” code for the large-scale implementation of a policy of displacement, demolition, and economic disenfranchisement. Poor, often racially segregated neighborhoods were leveled to make way for the new roads: + Show Spoiler +places that we’d now see as interesting, multi-ethnic areas were viewed as blight.” Highways were a tool for justifying the destruction of many of these areas.
The new freeways also isolated many other neighborhoods, ushering in their demise. Combined with federal housing bills that paid developers to tear down existing housing stock and replace it with high-rises, they resulted in the continued decimation of huge swaths of many cities.
“Many neighborhoods, predominantly black, were wiped out and turned into surface parking and highways,” Norton says, noting Black Bottom and Paradise Valley in Detroit, historical neighborhoods that were torn down to make way for I-375.
In Dallas, things were no different. The easiest way to find some of the locations of Dallas’ original Freedman’s Towns is to trace the path of the highways.
If you want to dispute it further we can take it to the US thread but it's only fair and reasonable for me to express my disagreement with yours and others portrayal of how the US government treats political dissent.
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I'm glad another Chinese came here to leave a message，More Chinese people to express their views can let you know more about the real China.
I don't know whether it is the media or other reasons.I found that some people's view of China is actually China in 1950 or 1960。
At that time, the war had just stopped, China was still full of turmoil, and there were still various struggles at the top of the Communist Party of China。
The great cultural revolution launched the struggle against the "four olds", that is, all kinds of persecution of religions, which happened 50 years ago。
In 1983, due to the very poor public security, many hooligans and gangsters. At this time, Deng Xiaoping proposed a three-year strike hard to crack down on all kinds of hooligan crimes, including some unjust, false and wrong cases. However, after these three years, the social atmosphere has improved a lot.
As for Chinese real estate, the house bought by the Chinese belongs to the Chinese, but the land under the house does not belong to the Chinese. The Chinese own the ownership of the house, but the land is only leased to you by the state. The term of residential land is generally 70 years, and the term of commercial land is generally 40 years. If the state wants to requisition the land under your house for other construction land, it will compensate you with cash or a new house at the market price, Your house was forcibly demolished 10 years ago. Now it basically doesn't exist.
By the way, Chinese people don't have to pay annual property tax on their real estate, but now the government wants to levy this tax, and almost the whole country opposes it.
We really can't criticize President Xi in public. It's no problem in private，If you make such comments on the network, the administrator will usually delete them, and you won't have any problems. However, if your comments are read by a large number of people and have a very bad impact, the police will come to you for questioning to see if the situation needs to deal with you.
As SSIII said, Chinese people really don't care much about politics. Maybe the reason for life stress or Chinese people don't have votes or other reasons.
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It's nice to talk with you guys, but today I am busy with work.see you later
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On June 22 2022 11:14 JimmiC wrote:
The persecution of Buddhist's, Muslims, Christians, and basically religions is ongoing. It is disingenuous and flat out wrong to say it happened 50 years ago, maybe that is when it started, no signs of it stopping sadly.
My grandmother and my mother are devout Buddhists and have never been persecuted. I also have relatives who are Christian and have never been oppressed. There are no Muslims in my family, but the streets are full of all kinds of Lanzhou ramen, all of which are opened by Muslims. I don't know where you got this information. China is an atheist country, but there are still many folk Buddhists.
Only the cult organizations are strictly forbidden in China. The well-known one is Falun Gong. I saw Falun Gong books when I was a child. It is childish and terrible. The teaching of Falun Gong is that you should not go to the hospital when you are sick, and you will be fine if the leader does what he does，you won't be able to cure yourself. The religious leader will let the believers hurt themselves. It's terrible. If you say that banning cult organizations is religious persecution, you are right. We don't allow harmful cult organizations
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EPT
