|
On June 21 2022 23:24 Simberto wrote:
See, but this is kind of the thing. You are always aware of the fact that if you do something which is contrary to the ruling party, and police gets to know it, they will bother you about it. So you basically constantly need a mental filter to consider if the thing you say may get you in trouble.
This is not the case here. If i have a sticker similar to the one mentioned above, but with any german politician on it, under no circumstances will the police call me to "have a talk". If i don't like something, i can just say so, without fear of repressions, or police coming to "have a talk".
And honestly, the way you handle Xi is kind of on point here. "Spiritual leader" "If i ever were dissatisfied (which i obviously not am), then i could do something like that, but obviously no one would ever really do that, because Xi is so awesome"
If that is really the consensus in China, then something weird is going on. Either people don't dare to say what they really believe, or they are fed a very restricted diet of information. No matter how good a leader is, there will always be people who are dissatisfied, or want something else. If you cannot find them, then they are hiding, which means that something weird is going on.
From the sentence "which I obviously not am" I believe you are a real German guy 
Well, if you never intend to do anything contrary to the ruling party or say things that get you introuble, do you really constantly need a mental filter? You don't even feel the existance of a mental filter. I don't need to drive to work with vigilance， thinking if I did anything unproper or if any of my behaviors were suspicious to anyone. That's something the Japnese do, not us.
As I said Xi is more like a "spiritual leader", it doesn't mean we will follow him to do anything or with full respect. I personally have no "feelings" about Xi or whoever the leader is. He published some books and showed on CCTV-1 constantly, but neither do I read his books or watch CCTV-1, people are busy at making money, who really cares the politics nowadays?
As you are a German, I believe you people had a past to follow the wrong one blindly. So I guess German students are taught to think more independly on this "bliefs in national leader" part. I have watched movies like "Die Welle" /"Das boot"/“ Das Leben der Anderen”, these movies are also well-known in China.
The Chinese are not living in a bubble, Alles Klar?
|
On June 22 2022 00:24 pebble444 wrote:I’ m actually curious what the Chinese Wikipedia page says about this topic: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AZsur6K.jpg)
I don't think there is anything on this topic in Chinese websites, I explained on this topic in former posts, you can check it out.
|
The infamous 1-child policy, or offcially "family planning policy" started in the late 1970s, and written into the modified constitution in 1982, the goverment called on her people to follow the policy for the good of the nation until 2007 when its ended. The birth rate dropped for 5.8(!) at 1970 to 2.24 at 1980. The policy says "Every family in cities or towns should have 1 child only, and should be relaxed in rural areas ", notice here, the 1-child policy applied strictly only in the Han provinces, the national minorities allow to have 2-3 children.
I believe terrible things happened in many places especially the backward places with brainless local governers. I checked the number of newborns in 1975 is 2012万，which is 20.12million, let's make a calculation here, if 1/10000~1/1000 forced abortion happens next year, 2~20 thousands terrible tragedy happened, yearly.
But people are people, not brainless animals, what will you do if you were carring the 2nd baby? Usually you face a fine of at least several months' income, or you try to bribe officers in charge, if you have no money you might run away to remote relatives or to another place became a tramp or try find a job in contruction site, after the baby is born, no one can do anything about it. In rural areas , protests could be more violent, you know , in villages, every family is well known to the others, if one family face such a threat, every villageman would take actions to stop it. So in many areas the policy meets great obstacles.
I was born in the 1980s, have a twin brother, in a city, my parents didn't pay money for it ,but my family lost some preferentials like tax-reliefs. Those who have one child will be rewarded like $3-10/monthly. I never heard of any abortion stories from my parent or others in our small city, but I do hear some terrible stories on rural areas, and I saw 2-3 families who run away from their place to our city.
I am not trying to justify the policy, it is against human nature, but the they do have a reason, there are way too many people in China, whenver I took a train in the 1990s or 2000s I can barely stand on my feet.
Some researches on Chinese polpulation shows that there will be another 200millon people than we have today if the 1-child policy were never applied.
Ironically, The goverment encourage us to have 2 or 3 kids since 2016, but which fool will do that at such a high living cost today?
attachment: yearly birth population of China （年=year 万=10thousands）
1949年：1275万
1950年：1419万
1951年：1349万
1952年：1622万
1953年：1637万
1954年：2232万
1955年：1965万
1956年：1961万
1957年：2138万
1958年：1889万
1959年：1635万
1960年：1402万
1961年：949万
1962年：2451万
1963年：2934万
1964年：2721万
1965年：2679万
1966年：2554万
1967年：2543万
1968年：2731万
1969年：2690万
1970年：2710万
1971年：2551万
1972年：2550万
1973年：2447万
1974年：2226万
1975年：2102万
1976年：1849万
1977年：1783万
1978年：1733万
1979年：1715万
1980年：1776万
1981年：2064万
1982年：2230万
1983年：2052万
1984年：2050万
1985年：2196万
1986年：2374万
1987年：2508万
1988年：2445万
1989年：2396万
1990年：2374万
1991年：2250万
1992年：2113万
1993年：2120万
1994年：2098万
1995年：2052万
1996年：2057万
1997年：2028万
1998年：1934万
1999年：1827万
2000年：1765万
2001年：1696万
2002年：1641万
2003年：1594万
2004年：1588万
2005年：1612万
2006年：1581万
2007年：1591万
2008年：1604万
2009年：1587万
2010年：1588万
2011年：1600万
2012年：1635万
2013年：1640万
2014年：1687万
2015年：1655万
2016年：1786万
2017年：1723万
2018年：1523万
2019年：1465万
2020年：1200万
2021年：1062万
|
On June 21 2022 15:54 pebble444 wrote:
Is there freedom of religion in China to practice publicly and peacefully your religion (I.e. the freedom to meet and pray in a mosque, or church, or whatever religion?) no.
Is there freedom to openly critisize goverment politics and decisions? No, not really any elections either.
Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No.
Do you have the freedom to have kids? No, not really.
(If you pay you can have more); it’s incredible the silent genocide that went on because of this in the 80’s ; people where making their wife’s forcefully abort when it was a female, because they wanted males. The consequence to that is there is about 3 males to 1 female age 25-40 in China today.
Which leads to basically some Chinese whole families “abducting” females from poorer countries, promising them a life of riches with their sons back in China. And ostracizing them if they wish to have freedom to move back.
But of course, to the middle privileged Chinese class, this is propaganda, this has not nor is going on, maybe because they are afraid of retaliation if they speak, or maybe because they are afraid to lose their privileges. Time for a reality check.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will. The reason I point out for that is not only the goverment, which is de facto a regime, but also those who support this regime. Those who do not wish for things to change, because if they did change, they would not be privileged and entitled anymore.
Hi, I've lived in China for the last ten years and thought I'd answer your questions.
Is there freedom of religion in China?
Yes, of course. My mother and father in law go to an Anglican church every week (or at least they did before they were closed due to the Shanghai lockdown).
And there are more than 20,000 mosques in China compared to about 2,800 in the US.
Is there freedom to openly criticise the government policies and decisions?
Yes, or course. The criticisms of the handling of the Shanghai lockdown lead to many changes in policy and whenever the government is considering large changes they typically first open a public forum for people to post their opinions and suggestions, then when they have prepared the policy they will post it pubically and again open it to public criticism.
Now it's true that they are limits to the ways in which you can criticise and some topics are more open to criticism than others but to say that you can't openly criticise government policies is incorrect.
Is there freedom to buy your own house?
Is this a really question? Yes, of course. My wife and I bought our apartment in 2019, don't really know what to say about this.
Do you have freedom to have kids?
Yes, you can have as many children as you want but you may have to pay a social tax on some of them until they are 18. Previously there was the one child policy but now that is removed and people can have two or three children depending on whether they themselves are single children. It's also important to remember that these are the laws but they are only implemented in the large cities. It was very common for people in smaller cities to have multiple children during the one child policy.
Three males to one female aged 25-40.
That would mean there are 300 males for every 100 females. Considering that in the total population there are 105 males for every 100 females and there are about 37 million more males than females in a population of 1.4 billion it is statistically impossible for that to be true.
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized, forcefully and violently re-educated against their own will.
This is very general so its hard to reply to, so I'll just say that China has caught up to the United States in life expectancy and has a lower rate of wealth inequality than the US. Also China has completely eliminated extreme poverty in the country by a huge government investment in housing, infrastructure, health care and education, while the number of unhoused people in America keeps rising.
Hope that cleared up some of your misconceptions about China and I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have 😀
|
On June 22 2022 00:15 pebble444 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2022 22:43 emperorchampion wrote:Edit: also pebble444 can you expand on this: Is there freedom to buy your own house? No. And in some cases, is there freedom to move around the country and outside of the country? No. In china You cannot buy and own a house in your name. What is done is you lease it long term from the goverment. Not sure of the exact details, like people actually buy houses and apartments, but it’s not legally theirs. This way the goverment can easily kick you out should it decides it needs the space for some public works. In the construction of the hugest hydroelectric plant in the world, this was the case. Millions of people where displaced to make way for the country massive need of power. Reports have shown that uygers are not allowed to leave their province, to move freely to other parts of China, unless they want to go to Kazakhstan, which is mostly a Muslim country,
"Reports have shown that uygers are not allowed to leave their province, to move freely to other parts of China"
Reports from where? I live in Shanghai and there are lots of people from Xinjiang who live here. There are tonnes of Xinjiang restaurants and street food stalls. The staff there speak to each other in their local language despite it being banned according to western sources. The restaurants also have local Xinjiang script on the sign, menu and decorations inside despite that also allegedly being banned.
Don't know what reports you are referring to but they are demonstrably incorrect.
|
Interesting discussions and I hope that they stay civilized while we learn more from each other's side.
By the way I live in Vietnam, a country with a similar ideology. Almost everybody is vaccinated (we love vaccines and are cowards, unlike Westerners ^^), so now everybody is moving freely without masks and hospitals aren't overloaded at all, in fact I would say the doctors have a bit too much free time on their hand (in some hospitals).
We used many types of vaccines, the dirt-cheap Astra-Zeneca, the expensive Moderna, to the dubious Sinopharm. I would say that even if some vaccines are more effective than others, ALL of them definitely help to stop the spread of the virus.
So I would argue that if 99% of the Chinese population get vaccinated on time (once every 6 months) and open their economy, their health system would not collapse.
|
I live in a comparetivly small city in China (with 5million residents!) and people around me mostly get 2 shots of vaccine, which are made in China, for free. I guess 20% population got the 3rd vaccine too. 3rd vaccine is not free ,but cheap enough, I was planting to get it in Feb, but then came the lockdown, during the lockdown when people are tested like every week, you are not advised to get the 3rd vaccine. Now, it is too hot , over 35℃, I just don't intend to have it now, as life back to normal, It seems not so urgent
|
On June 23 2022 22:44 coloursheep wrote:
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized,
hello , only 1 question, what is " citizens under foreign Chinese occupation " 没听懂这句啥意思
|
Russian Federation605 Posts
On June 24 2022 15:00 SSIII wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2022 22:44 coloursheep wrote:
Chinese citizens, and citizens under foreign Chinese occupation are being persecuted, misstreated, marginalized,
hello , only 1 question, what is " citizens under foreign Chinese occupation " 没听懂这句啥意思
He was quoting pebble444's post. Many US and European people consider Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang as a sovereign nations occupied by China (especially Tibet).
|
This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
|
On June 24 2022 15:19 Ardias wrote:
He was quoting pebble444's post. Many US and European people consider Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang as a sovereign nations occupied by China (especially Tibet).
I am not approval to their considerations, but they do have the right to consider anyway.
|
On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased.
why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
|
|
|
On June 24 2022 21:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown. You can alternative view points but not alternative no matter how much fox news you watch.
Lol they don't get fox news in China that would be way to western for them. It's all state media all the time.
|
|
|
On June 25 2022 00:29 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2022 00:21 Sermokala wrote:On June 24 2022 21:55 JimmiC wrote:On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown. You can alternative view points but not alternative no matter how much fox news you watch. Lol they don't get fox news in China that would be way to western for them. It's all state media all the time. Not a lot different on the accuracy or alternative fact angle though, I also believe there was the claim of getting outside news easily though VPN.
You're right, it's trivial to access any news or blocked websites if that's something you want to do.
|
Fear of being hurt and fear of the loss of privilege; and also the fear of being hopeless and powerless to bring any kind of concrete change to the situation. When everything around you is regulated, from internet access to gaming, why would a person of young age try and even question the system that has been pulled in place to make you have a tunnel vision, wool over your eyes? It is neither convenient nor desirable when all you see around you is people having it worse than you, and you can create a personal philosophy based around the internet telling you that all is well, that you are living in freedom, that peoples rights are being respected, that our country has a right to impose on other cultures, other belief systems, both economically and philosophically.
Thus, slaves are born, but slaves that will defend the state, because they have been programmed and conditioned from birth, from their parents, from society, from school, from peers on the internet, that this is the way to think;
Instead of formulating your own belief system, you are pushed into believing that there is a greater good, and those who do not believe in it, either are foreigners, that do not understand our culture, or they are non-Chinese conformists, which have something inside of them that is fundamentally wrong.
This is how you can brainwash people into believing that what is happening, and what we believe in, is the righteous way to live life. It is enough to push away that feeling, sensation in the back of your brain, or your heart, that something is not quite right, even though you cannot really “put your finger on it”
|
On June 25 2022 03:30 pebble444 wrote:
Fear of being hurt and fear of the loss of privilege; and also the fear of being hopeless and powerless to bring any kind of concrete change to the situation. When everything around you is regulated, from internet access to gaming, why would a person of young age try and even question the system that has been pulled in place to make you have a tunnel vision, wool over your eyes? It is neither convenient nor desirable when all you see around you is people having it worse than you, and you can create a personal philosophy based around the internet telling you that all is well, that you are living in freedom, that peoples rights are being respected, that our country has a right to impose on other cultures, other belief systems, both economically and philosophically.
Thus, slaves are born, but slaves that will defend the state, because they have been programmed and conditioned from birth, from their parents, from society, from school, from peers on the internet, that this is the way to think;
Instead of formulating your own belief system, you are pushed into believing that there is a greater good, and those who do not believe in it, either are foreigners, that do not understand our culture, or they are non-Chinese conformists, which have something inside of them that is fundamentally wrong.
This is how you can brainwash people into believing that what is happening, and what we believe in, is the righteous way to live life. It is enough to push away that feeling, sensation in the back of your brain, or your heart, that something is not quite right, even though you cannot really “put your finger on it”
I read your post 4~5 times, keep trying a self-examination to every aspects you mentioned above. You have a good understanding of brain-wash, and I don't think you have something inside you that is fundamentally wrong.
Everyone creates a personal pilosophy based on his personal life, your understanding of Chinese people is also based on your personal life. You can not really "understand" people simply with logics and analysis, it's not mathmatics. It's really complicated.
Just an example, you may had spent 10 years with your wife, thinking that you know everything about her, and yet someday she might do something that is completly out of you expectations.
I know it is really hard to totally understand eachother, however, it is still possible for people to work together though they differ so much on everything.
I am not here to judge, I am here with ears.
|
On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown.
Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression.
The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
|
On June 25 2022 17:40 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown. Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression. The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd.
You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
