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On June 25 2022 19:00 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2022 17:40 RvB wrote:On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown. Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression. The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd. You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
For some reason China can only come up with denials and bizarre accusations like the gloom filter to discredit BBC and the like.
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On June 25 2022 19:00 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2022 17:40 RvB wrote:On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown. Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression. The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd. You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it.
In principle yes if there's sufficient evidence. I've changed my views on many things over my lifetime. In the specific case of Xinjiang it's unlikely I will change my mind. There's enough evidence that Uighurs are locked up and oppressed on a massive scale.
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On June 25 2022 19:53 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2022 19:00 coloursheep wrote:On June 25 2022 17:40 RvB wrote:On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown. Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression. The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd. You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it. In principle yes if there's sufficient evidence. I've changed my views on many things over my lifetime. In the specific case of Xinjiang it's unlikely I will change my mind. There's enough evidence that Uighurs are locked up and oppressed on a massive scale.
Unlikely is good enough for me.
Let's start with something basic. Western media and governments claim and the CCP is trying to destroy the Uyghur culture by banning the Uyghur language by forcing Uyghurs to learn mandarin and not allowing Uyghur script be used. Do you believe that that this is true?
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Yesterday evening on a dinner table I happened to meet a guy from Xinjiang, he has darker eyebrows and longer arm hair, doesn't look like a typical Han. I asked him carefully if he had heard of anything about reeducation there, he said yes, the whole village, man or women, children or old, are taken by bus to a place,receive a 3-day education on national policies, and I asked if any torment or killing had happened,"not from what I know",he smiled,give me a quick look which made me feel embarrassed,so I stopped asking.
I don't know if it is reliable for you, maybe "they are all machinegunned" or "I have never seen them again" seemed more reliable?
Xinjiang and Tibet belong to China quite long ago, you can find them on Tang Dynasty(around A.D600) maps ， they were liberated from the kuomintang(the party fled to taiwan after losing the civil war in mailand china) army in around 1949~1951.
It was 70 years ago, if CCP were hostile to the Uygurs,with probably the strongest land force, she can easily wipe out the whole race at any time.Why the Uygurs and Tibetians suddenly became a main problem in recent years?Isn't it intriguing.
I am just tired of sharing and explaining, I am out. Even if the gov decide to nuke all the Urgurs to end this debate permanently, it's not my fault.
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On June 25 2022 20:51 coloursheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2022 19:53 RvB wrote:On June 25 2022 19:00 coloursheep wrote:On June 25 2022 17:40 RvB wrote:On June 24 2022 20:30 SSIII wrote:On June 24 2022 15:58 RvB wrote:This thread is getting crazy with all the denials of human rights abuses. The human rights abuses are well documented by multiple NGO's such as Amnesty International and human rights watch. It's telling that the sole argument that the human rights abuses are not true boil down to: you've not been there and I have and western media is biased. why it is getting crazy？people need to get a full view of things in multiple directions, so they can understand things more deeply. the chinese here are not denying bad things,they just explain things in their own perspectives. If you find it's not valuable, you are losing a chance to understand the Chinese. and it could be worse if you take us as a potential enemy, because you are certain to lose to the unknown. Go reread the thread. What's happening in Xinjiang was denied, on this page there's denials of persecution of religious minorities and the limits on freedom of expression. The problem isn't that we have differing perspectives. It's the opposite I welcome differing perspectives. It's a large part of why I still browse politics on the internet since it gives me insight in what people with opposing political views think. The problem is that legitimate criticism of China is dismissed because we've never been there and western media is biased. And the only evidence provided is a random BBC video and some anecdotes. It's absurd. You said you welcome differing perspectives, so does that mean that you're willing to accept that what you have heard about Xinjiang could be incorrect? Because if that's the case then there is a discussion that can be had and I'm happy to have it. In principle yes if there's sufficient evidence. I've changed my views on many things over my lifetime. In the specific case of Xinjiang it's unlikely I will change my mind. There's enough evidence that Uighurs are locked up and oppressed on a massive scale. Unlikely is good enough for me. Let's start with something basic. Western media and governments claim and the CCP is trying to destroy the Uyghur culture by banning the Uyghur language by forcing Uyghurs to learn mandarin and not allowing Uyghur script be used. Do you believe that that this is true?
What I believe is that Uyghurs in Xinjiang are interned on a massive scale without due process. In the internment camps they're raped, tortured, forced into labour, forcefully sterilised, and many more human rights abuses. This includes being forced to learn Mandarin and children being seperated from their parents and culture.
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China in the eyes of westerners and China in the eyes of Chinese people are completely two worlds。
In the eyes of Westerners, we are brainwashed. We all live in fear. China is full of concentration camps.
I wonder if this is also a kind of brainwashing for Westerners?
From the perspective of a Chinese, what the Chinese people said before is the real China. Although they look at China from multiple perspectives, their views are not 100% the same, but this is the real China
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Whether immigrants like China or not, they must say that China is bad abroad. This is politically correct and can better integrate into foreign countries.
There are also many immigrants who hide their identity in China, live abroad as immigrants, and live in China as Chinese.This kind of person makes money in China and scolds China behind its back. This kind of person is very hypocritical
There are also some second-generation officials and the second-generation rich families who have emigrated abroad. They only keep their father who is an official in China or their father who makes money in China. If they are caught breaking the law, they are doomed to scold China all their lives.
In addition to these immigrants, there are still some who cannot live in China and hope to go abroad to change their destiny. Such people will certainly hate China.
There are also some overseas students, not all of them here. There must be some people who must do this in order to better integrate into foreign countries. They say that China is very good in China and that abroad is very good. We have seen many such news reports in China.
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United States43932 Posts
I’m a little confused by this idea that they’re forced to criticize China to socially integrate abroad. Very few of my social interactions involve criticism of China, even with Chinese people. You could talk about the weather or food or movies etc.
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On June 28 2022 13:55 KwarK wrote:
I’m a little confused by this idea that they’re forced to criticize China to socially integrate abroad. Very few of my social interactions involve criticism of China, even with Chinese people. You could talk about the weather or food or movies etc.
Exactly. There is this weird feeling that Zergling is living in a different world than I do. They claim a lot of stuff very authoritatively which does not fit very well to anything i have experienced.
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On June 28 2022 16:48 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2022 13:55 KwarK wrote:
I’m a little confused by this idea that they’re forced to criticize China to socially integrate abroad. Very few of my social interactions involve criticism of China, even with Chinese people. You could talk about the weather or food or movies etc. Exactly. There is this weird feeling that Zergling is living in a different world than I do. They claim a lot of stuff very authoritatively which does not fit very well to anything i have experienced.
Yeah, so many chineses disappeared abroad after tweeting good things about china.
Wait, no, that was the opposite. People are disappearing after criticizing the ccp.
I'm getting quite tired of people living in an alternate reality assuring me that the sky is indeed green instead of blue.
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Frankly speaking, the few Chinese who posted here are the few Chinese who are pro-west ,otherwise they would not have the interest to master the language and give responses.
The Chinese are generally nice to foreigners, and I thought the westners could be more gentlemanlike.However ,some people just jumped out to critisize on things with no firm evidences in an arrogant altitude, which had erased my last good impressions of the west.
A very recent (June23rd) news is that, The Economist, an Influential magazine in the educated westners, twitt a post with the title " In 2019 pigs ate 431m tonnes of grain, 45% more than the people of China did"---- I didn't know when and why they degradated themselves to such a level, even pupils wouldn't have composed such a title.
Basic politeness is lost, I have a foreboding feeling that maybe someday the East and the West will step into war before they barely know eachother.
I had prepared some bad words for the people who tried to ban me and tried spreading irrational hateful speeches,
but forget it....
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On June 30 2022 22:27 SSIII wrote:
Frankly speaking, the few Chinese who posted here are the few Chinese who are pro-west ,otherwise they would not have the interest to master the language and give responses.
The Chinese are generally nice to foreigners, and I thought the westners could be more gentlemanlike.However ,some people just jumped out to critisize on things with no firm evidences in an arrogant altitude, which had erased my last good impressions of the west.
A very recent (June23rd) news is that, The Economist, an Influential magazine in the educated westners, twitt a post with the title " In 2019 pigs ate 431m tonnes of grain, 45% more than the people of China did"---- I didn't know when and why they degradated themselves to such a level, even pupils wouldn't have composed such a title.
Basic politeness is lost, I have a foreboding feeling that maybe someday the East and the West will step into war before they barely know eachother.
I had prepared some bad words for the people who tried to ban me and who tried spreading irrational hateful speeches,
but forget it....
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On June 30 2022 22:27 SSIII wrote:
Frankly speaking, the few Chinese who posted here are the few Chinese who are pro-west ,otherwise they would not have the interest to master the language and give responses.
The Chinese are generally nice to foreigners, and I thought the westners could be more gentlemanlike.However ,some people just jumped out to critisize on things with no firm evidences in an arrogant altitude, which had erased my last good impressions of the west.
A very recent (June23rd) news is that, The Economist, an Influential magazine in the educated westners, twitt a post with the title " In 2019 pigs ate 431m tonnes of grain, 45% more than the people of China did"---- I didn't know when and why they degradated themselves to such a level, even pupils wouldn't have composed such a title.
Basic politeness is lost, I have a foreboding feeling that maybe someday the East and the West will step into war before they barely know eachother.
I had prepared some bad words for the people who tried to ban me and tried spreading irrational hateful speeches,
but forget it....
you shoulda taken more time to master the language than get triggered by something so simple like the words pig and china being in the same sentence, then accuse westerners of china hate.
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I apologize if my posts have been rude, without decorum, and impolite; my intention was not to hurt peoples’ s feelings;
My intention was however to trigger the discussion; and to bring awareness to someone who might not know that this is going on. I saw a soft approach and dancing around the bush as they say, in the initial posts of this thread. So I stated what for me, from my point of view, was obvious.
This thread is called the politics of China. Not the food of China, not the history of China, not the language of the Chinese;
For example, I can tell you that I have a lot of esteem for Confucius, and he is a role model for me, someone to which I look up to. He is to me one of the great persons of humanity, an outstanding persona. The only regret I have is that we do not truly know what his music sounded like (yes, he has been called a master musician too, among other things)
To me this thread was not about these things. It was about exposing the hard times that some Chinese citizens are suffering everyday repeatedly, tirelessly, and without any empathy.
If it was cases of isolated incidents, then it would not be a political problem;
I also understand that it is custom in “far east” Asian countries to have a non direct approach to topics, but rather trying to comunicate to comunicate something.
I also must keep insisting that from my research these problems going on are very real, and those things, are happening right now as we speak.
Now I also understand that it is very dangerous for you to speak out against any of these things. You might lose your job, lose your living quarters, or your freedom. You might lose everything. Please try and consider that they are some Chinese citizens that do not have the liberty to lose those things, as since they where born, they never had them to begin with. Because you live with a goverment that will privilege those who believe in it, and oppress those that critisize it;
I have though for a while and did more research before posting again. My answer does not change. I must stand clear in that. But I do apologize if I hurt your feelings
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EPT
