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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
You are the one living in some parallel universe.
We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time.
The people of the Donbass are home, the Kievites can just chose to go back to theirs. Yes, there is a ban on men leaving Ukraine and they are being press ganged into the trenches, and a lot of them are deserting, and disagreeing with their government equals jail time or getting sent on suicide raids... well to be honest there isn't much the average person living under Kiev government control can do until the external pressure for them to keep dieing lets up.
The endgame is in sight in any case
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United States44393 Posts
Ah yes, the Ukrainian army invaded Ukraine and the North Korean army is native to Ukraine.
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On November 24 2025 01:25 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:
[quote]
As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out.
Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time. The people of the Donbass are home, the Kievites can just chose to go back to theirs. Yes, there is a ban on men leaving Ukraine and they are being press ganged into the trenches, and a lot of them are deserting, and disagreeing with their government equals jail time or getting sent on suicide raids... well to be honest there isn't much the average person living under Kiev government control can do until the external pressure for them to keep dieing lets up. The endgame is in sight in any case
Have you, ever, talked to any Ukrainian?
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On November 24 2025 01:31 KwarK wrote:
Ah yes, the Ukrainian army invaded Ukraine and the North Korean army is native to Ukraine.
Yes, thats what happens in a civil wars, countries invade themselves. The North Koreans are in Russia
On November 24 2025 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:25 zeo wrote:On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:
[quote]
Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time. The people of the Donbass are home, the Kievites can just chose to go back to theirs. Yes, there is a ban on men leaving Ukraine and they are being press ganged into the trenches, and a lot of them are deserting, and disagreeing with their government equals jail time or getting sent on suicide raids... well to be honest there isn't much the average person living under Kiev government control can do until the external pressure for them to keep dieing lets up. The endgame is in sight in any case Have you, ever, talked to any Ukrainian?
Yes, Ive been in contact with many Ukrainians through work after 2014
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 24 2025 01:42 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:31 KwarK wrote:
Ah yes, the Ukrainian army invaded Ukraine and the North Korean army is native to Ukraine. Yes, thats what happens in a civil wars, countries invade themselves. The North Koreans are in Russia Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 24 2025 01:25 zeo wrote:On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time. The people of the Donbass are home, the Kievites can just chose to go back to theirs. Yes, there is a ban on men leaving Ukraine and they are being press ganged into the trenches, and a lot of them are deserting, and disagreeing with their government equals jail time or getting sent on suicide raids... well to be honest there isn't much the average person living under Kiev government control can do until the external pressure for them to keep dieing lets up. The endgame is in sight in any case Have you, ever, talked to any Ukrainian? Yes, Ive been in contact with many Ukrainians through work after 2014
Lol.
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On November 24 2025 01:42 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:31 KwarK wrote:
Ah yes, the Ukrainian army invaded Ukraine and the North Korean army is native to Ukraine. Yes, thats what happens in a civil wars, countries invade themselves. The North Koreans are in Russia Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 24 2025 01:25 zeo wrote:On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time. The people of the Donbass are home, the Kievites can just chose to go back to theirs. Yes, there is a ban on men leaving Ukraine and they are being press ganged into the trenches, and a lot of them are deserting, and disagreeing with their government equals jail time or getting sent on suicide raids... well to be honest there isn't much the average person living under Kiev government control can do until the external pressure for them to keep dieing lets up. The endgame is in sight in any case Have you, ever, talked to any Ukrainian? Yes, Ive been in contact with many Ukrainians through work after 2014
Doubt it, sorry.
|
On November 24 2025 01:42 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:31 KwarK wrote:
Ah yes, the Ukrainian army invaded Ukraine and the North Korean army is native to Ukraine. Yes, thats what happens in a civil wars, countries invade themselves. The North Koreans are in Russia Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 24 2025 01:25 zeo wrote:On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time. The people of the Donbass are home, the Kievites can just chose to go back to theirs. Yes, there is a ban on men leaving Ukraine and they are being press ganged into the trenches, and a lot of them are deserting, and disagreeing with their government equals jail time or getting sent on suicide raids... well to be honest there isn't much the average person living under Kiev government control can do until the external pressure for them to keep dieing lets up. The endgame is in sight in any case Have you, ever, talked to any Ukrainian? Yes, Ive been in contact with many Ukrainians through work after 2014
As the younger generation would say, I'm calling cap on that
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On November 24 2025 02:28 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 01:42 zeo wrote:On November 24 2025 01:31 KwarK wrote:
Ah yes, the Ukrainian army invaded Ukraine and the North Korean army is native to Ukraine. Yes, thats what happens in a civil wars, countries invade themselves. The North Koreans are in Russia On November 24 2025 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 24 2025 01:25 zeo wrote:On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:
[quote]
No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often.
Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time. The people of the Donbass are home, the Kievites can just chose to go back to theirs. Yes, there is a ban on men leaving Ukraine and they are being press ganged into the trenches, and a lot of them are deserting, and disagreeing with their government equals jail time or getting sent on suicide raids... well to be honest there isn't much the average person living under Kiev government control can do until the external pressure for them to keep dieing lets up. The endgame is in sight in any case Have you, ever, talked to any Ukrainian? Yes, Ive been in contact with many Ukrainians through work after 2014 As the younger generation would say, I'm calling cap on that
To be fair, a Russian soldier could actually say that, too.
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On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2025 12:16 spets1 wrote:
[quote]
Imo this is because there like 10 people in this thread stoking each other non stop. And won't listen to any arguments. No matter what is said you guys live in a parallel universe where the facts are the same but you interpret them completely opposite. Some of us a smart enough not to engage cos there's no point. Let bigons be bigots You are the one living in some parallel universe. We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'.
I don't think Russians are capable of such self-reflection, judging by the aftermath of WW2. And even if they were, you think people being mean to them on the internet is sufficient to stop them from that self-reflection and continue on their murderous path?
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United States44393 Posts
Sure are a lot of Russians dying in this Ukrainian civil war.
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Kyiv was the first city, so technically it is a civil war.
The Muscovites are usurpers, they should submit to the true ruler of all Rus!
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United States44393 Posts
It’ll be a non starter for the same irreconcilable issues as always. Ukraine wants to retain sovereignty and therefore a credible defence against a follow up invasion. Russia denies Ukraine sovereign status and wants to leverage military power to dominate it. They’re incompatible.
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I don't think it's meant to be accepted by either side. It's probably meant to put the ball in Putin's court and force him to be the one rejecting a deal. I truly hope this is just a stalling tactic by Europe to keep the US engaged for as long as possible while we continue arming up.
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Maybe i should also make a plan for peace where i tell everyone what they will be doing. That seems similarly productive as those peace plans unilaterally put out by countries only tangentially involved in the conflict.
We could even work on it cooperatively and make it the 28 point TL peace plan for Ukraine.
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I find Ardias's views understandable but also something everyone should keep in mind when Russians complain about blowing up bridges in Crimea, the capture of Sudzha or drone strikes in Moscow. Russia is not North Korea. They have a choice and they're choosing to side with their dictator. We don't need to declare that every single Russian is a bad person but it's perfectly fine to say the Russian society as a whole is responsible for what happened in Ukraine. We can blame them for what happened there and there is nothing wrong in hoping they will reap the whirlwind some day.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On November 24 2025 08:21 Sent. wrote:
I find Ardias's views understandable but also something everyone should keep in mind when Russians complain about blowing up bridges in Crimea, the capture of Sudzha or drone strikes in Moscow. Russia is not North Korea. They have a choice and they're choosing to side with their dictator. We don't need to declare that every single Russian is a bad person but it's perfectly fine to say the Russian society as a whole is responsible for what happened in Ukraine. We can blame them for what happened there and there is nothing wrong in hoping they will reap the whirlwind some day.
Absolutely.
It’s a crying shame. Aside from the not inconsiderable amount of death, it’s also the high water mark in a complete squandering of Russian talent on the altar of a nationalism that is actively self-destructive.
Nobody benefits from this madness really.
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United States44393 Posts
That’s just Russia. They should be richer than Norwegians, the envy of the world. People should long to live in Russia. The land has the most arable hectares, the most oil and gas, the most precious metals etc. But to balance that out the universe filled the land with Russians.
It was a challenge to fuck things up with all the natural gifts Russia was blessed with, if they did nothing at all then they’d win by default. European energy companies came to Russia, built the infrastructure for the Russians, and then rained cash down upon them. All they had to do was nothing. Instead they did this.
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The problem is that you guys have been brainwashed into believing that Ukraine can somehow win or even sustain this war. Russia is winning the war and this is why the conditions of the peace on the table are basically the same as surrender. So it's either accept these conditions now or get completely defeated and lose even more. It's not because trump is bad, trump and the deep state that controls him have realised that they lost the war. So they're scrambling
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this deep state you are talking about, is there something like it in Russia too or is this a western thing? or government corruption on every level...
or being brainwashed?
if calling the last - almost - 4 years of "special operation" winning... I genuinely wonder what it means to lose Tavarish?
also, the last word has not been spoken on any sort of peace deal. don't make Trump's mistake of declaring victory prematurely. based on lies, wishful thinking and delusions of grandeur.
come to think of it, that's something Russia did way before Trump.
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EPT
