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United States43800 Posts
On November 22 2025 13:37 spets1 wrote:
Russia is not inherently weak—it's a nuclear-armed power with vast resources, a huge landmass, and a population three times that of France.
The issue isn't about bein weak or the Russian peple; it's the hand the Russia ha been delay since WW2. American grand strategy since Ww2 has been to dominate Eurasia precisely because a unified Europe tied to Russia could create a real competitor that outmatches even the US in industrial might and technological edge. Without Germany or France as partners, Russia is trapped n its own neighborhood, facing encirclement from NATO on one side and a rising China on the other.
the U.S. has masterfully played divide-and-conquer to keep potential rivals fragmented.
As for the military, sure, the initial invasion of Ukraine exposed corruption, poor logistics, and overestimation of their own capabilitie
But look at the adaptation since 2022: Russia has mobilized its economy, outproduced the West in artillery and drones, and ground down a NATO-backed Ukraine despite unprecedented sanctions.
The real point is that russia is in a strategic trap and unless it breaks out of isolation it will be weak, which is exactly what Washington works to keep
You're bragging about 1940s technology, barren snowfields, and the world's largest collection of alcoholics.
Nobody was thinking about Russia at all until it started acting out. Obama famously didn't even bother to have a Russia policy. The world isn't conspiring against Russia, the world is mostly just ignoring Russia entirely.
The US Air Force flew 7,000 miles from their bases in the continental US to strike Iran. That's power projection. Russia can't manage to put together logistics for a war fought 50 miles from their own borders with preexisting train lines. The US has 11 carrier groups, Russia's one aircraft carrier doesn't float. Russia's Black Sea fleet doesn't control the Black Sea. Russia's strategic bomber wing had to retreat from their own airfields located deep within Russian territory.
You're about to enter the fourth year of your war against the poorest country in Europe and it looks like it's unwinnable for Russia. It's a joke. Russia wasn't able to control its own territory in Kursk against the poorest country in Europe, it needed to beg for help from the poorest country in Asia.
Let's say we accept your delusion that the US is playing divide and conquer with its global rivals. Why would that have anything to do with Russia? Russia isn't a rival. Russia isn't even in the same game. Russia needs aid from North Korea to project power within its own borders.
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On November 22 2025 14:58 KwarK wrote:
Let's say we accept your delusion that the US is playing divide and conquer with its global rivals. Why would that have anything to do with Russia? Russia isn't a rival. Russia isn't even in the same game. Russia needs aid from North Korea to project power within its own borders.
It's all about China.
Punish Russia too much and they'll just run into Chinese arms.
Given the power imbalance between the two, it will turn into a 'friendship' that Russia might never escape from.
Russian resources feeding Chinese economy half-free would be a geo-strategic disaster for the US and the wider west.
Hence the kid-gloves when dealing with Russia.
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Canada11471 Posts
On November 22 2025 09:05 spets1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2025 08:39 Falling wrote: US/west has invested over 4 billion to make Ukraine hostile to Russia Victoria Nuland said US has invested $4B or Nuland has said that US invested $4B to make Ukraine hostile to Russia? Because those are two very different things and if it is the first, then you are being very dishonest with your claims. Source please. Because I don't trust anything Putin stans say about Nuland considering how they tried to twist her handing out cookies... sandwiches actually I think and conveniently failing to mention that she brought food for both sides, not just the Euromaidan protestors. edit. Also. US needs to spend zero dollars to make neighbours of Russia hostile to Russia. What Russian imperialists (in this thread even) fail to understand is that the only thing that causes hostility towards Russia is Russia's imperialism. The call is coming from inside the house. Here's the talk she gave from US own records: "Since Ukraine’s independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations. We’ve invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine." does this say "to make Ukraine hostile to Russia"? No —Nuland framed it as "democracy promotion." But here's where the dishonesty is: those "democratic skills and institutions" weren't neutral good-government workshops. They were a deliberate, decades-long U.S. strategy to build a pro-Western political networks, and media ecosystm in Ukraine that was explicitly designed to pull it out of Moscow's influence and into NATO and the EU. The $5 billion funded opposition parties, training for activists, and media that amplified anti-Russian narratives. which were activated with the 2014 coup. I mean well played to the US. As for the cookies—or sandwiches, is another dead give away. Nuland's pictures handing out bread to Maidan protesters in December 2013 was a high-level U.S. official publicly endorsing one side in a domestic crisis. She didn't "bring food for both sides" in any meaningful way; that claim is a myth peddled to make it believble. The real signal was her standing on stage with the opposition, including far-right elements, while the U.S. leaked diplomatic cables plotting who should run the post-Yanukovych government. Senators like John McCain were right there too, waving Ukrainian flags. Clear message who US is backong Did US stages every element in that overthrow? No, it's great-power competition by other means, aimed at flipping a key buffer state against your rival. So it was predictable that Russia will react as it did.
Nuland handing out food to both sides can't possibly be the myth considering nobody seems to know that she did it. All we got (pre-Trump election) was a bunch isolationist talk from MAGA fed by Russian propaganda that Nuland was handing out cookies to Maidan only... and this is used as evidence of a CIA backed coup.
I had to search out and listen to Nuland's own accounts to discover that a) it wasn't cookies and b) she was handing out food to the police and the protestors.
As for your quotation. As I thought. You blatantly lied by taking the verifiable fact of US aid money (using the cumulative number of all US aid since 1992) and squishing it together with the Russian paranoid conspiracy that Ukraine turned anti-Russian due to American aid in the same sentence while claiming to have proof from Nuland herself.
You cannot demonstrate that America had such a deliberately anti-Russian program in Ukraine nor that it was meaningfully efficacious because you are entirely blind to how Russia's own actions are the single greatest cause of anti-Russian sentiment all along their border. NATO did not expand to Russia. Former Soviet countries fled, begged, and cajoled to get into NATO. Russia's treatment of Ukraine shows the former Soviet countries were 100% correct.
And yeah, American politicians generally are supportive of corrupt regimes propped up by foreign authoritarians being replaced by genuine political movements to form liberal democracies with intentions to clean up corruption. They might be a bit cagey while the tyrant maintains their power, but once the winds of change are blowing strong enough, American politicians like to jump in and support it. At least they did, until Trump who seems to have a greater affinity with corrupt and expansionist tyrants than any of his democratic counter-parts. But that is only very recently. And it's not sufficient evidence that the US had any meaningful involvement in Maidan except as supportive bystanders that was ready to welcome Ukraine with open arms.
Russia had around 300 years to convince Ukrainians that being a part of Russia is awesome. But apparently Nuland's cookies and a bit of cash to help reform their political systems was all it took to flip Ukraine? Sounds like a skill issue for Russia.
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Yeah, generally speaking i agree. I just fear that they will find someone even faker and dumber to take her place. So far, MAGA has never improved. At any junction, they have consistently chosen to become more insane and idiotic. It is just as likely that this just means that MAGA is now too idiotic even for Greene.
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We're perhaps a bit outside of the topics of this thread here, but apparently she is resigning pretty much in the dot after 5 years, making her eligible for pension. She never stopped being a rubbish human being
But I agree it's genuine good news that she'll be gone. She shouldn't be allowed in any position with any authority over anyone else
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On November 22 2025 08:04 Legan wrote:
The level of disdain and even hate for Europe from Republicans is surprising. Is it coming from people who were outside of politics a decade ago, or is there some older faction behind it? Just people buying into Europe being a socialist dystopia?
The most surprising part to me is probably the total lack of competence among the old national security wing of Republicans. Every diplomatic action seems very poorly implemented. It is not that surprising that the deal is bad or has some hard-to-accept points. However, the way the proposal has been made, while ignoring the EU and Ukraine, and how completely it fails to make any demands on Russia, just makes the USA look weak and disinterested in its long-time allies. Working with Europe and Ukraine could help develop a framework for actions that soften the worst aspects of any peace deal.
At the same time, the isolationists still seem to demand that others just do as the USA demands. None of them seems to connect listening to allies and having allies act in a favourable way. This should probably be taken as a serious sign that demands for Greenland and Canada will be a real threat in the future. There seems to be an entitlement mentality among Republicans.
I think the disdain and hate shouldn't be surprising. If you read oBlade's or xDaunt's posts in the US pol thread it shouldn't be a surprise that they and many other Republican voters dislike Europeans, especially the liberal kind that for some reason loves to discuss American internal politics and express their views in a very polite and balanced manner.
The old Republican politicians aren't that hostile toward Europe. Even Russians are aware of that, as they kept bringing up that (manipulated) quote of the Republican Senator Lindsay Graham about dying Russians until attacking American politicians stopped being useful in their propaganda war. I doubt the old national security wing of Republicans played a big role in preparing the newest "peace" proposal.
Unfortunately the Trumpist right is way closer to what many Americans think about Ukraine. They don't care about the country and the rest of Eastern Europe. They dislike Western Europeans. They respect Putin. They don't want their taxes spent on helping Ukraine or Europe. You may try to argue with them and say the US gains a lot from helping Ukraine and the rest of Western world, but many of them will disagree with you and say the average American doesn't gain anything from it and they don't care about military–industrial complex or other corporations benefitting from America's soft power.
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On November 22 2025 13:37 spets1 wrote:
Russia is not inherently weak—it's a nuclear-armed power with vast resources, a huge landmass, and a population three times that of France.
The issue isn't about bein weak or the Russian peple; it's the hand the Russia ha been delay since WW2. American grand strategy since Ww2 has been to dominate Eurasia precisely because a unified Europe tied to Russia could create a real competitor that outmatches even the US in industrial might and technological edge. Without Germany or France as partners, Russia is trapped n its own neighborhood, facing encirclement from NATO on one side and a rising China on the other.
the U.S. has masterfully played divide-and-conquer to keep potential rivals fragmented.
As for the military, sure, the initial invasion of Ukraine exposed corruption, poor logistics, and overestimation of their own capabilitie
But look at the adaptation since 2022: Russia has mobilized its economy, outproduced the West in artillery and drones, and ground down a NATO-backed Ukraine despite unprecedented sanctions.
The real point is that russia is in a strategic trap and unless it breaks out of isolation it will be weak, which is exactly what Washington works to keep
So it is poor leadership, got you.
That is also the reason countries want to "integrate" with the west and not Russia. It is because the West believes in Win - Win arrangements and Russia only believes in Win - Lose relationships. You an see this when you compare Countries that joined with the west vs those that stayed with Russia after the fall of the USSR. Heck you can see this way back to west and east Germany as to why Germany doesn't want to "integrate" with Russia.
It takes no manipulation from the west because they just say to the people would you prefer to live like polish people or Belarussian? And if you are not a oligarch the answer is clear.
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On November 23 2025 01:19 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2025 13:37 spets1 wrote:
Russia is not inherently weak—it's a nuclear-armed power with vast resources, a huge landmass, and a population three times that of France.
The issue isn't about bein weak or the Russian peple; it's the hand the Russia ha been delay since WW2. American grand strategy since Ww2 has been to dominate Eurasia precisely because a unified Europe tied to Russia could create a real competitor that outmatches even the US in industrial might and technological edge. Without Germany or France as partners, Russia is trapped n its own neighborhood, facing encirclement from NATO on one side and a rising China on the other.
the U.S. has masterfully played divide-and-conquer to keep potential rivals fragmented.
As for the military, sure, the initial invasion of Ukraine exposed corruption, poor logistics, and overestimation of their own capabilitie
But look at the adaptation since 2022: Russia has mobilized its economy, outproduced the West in artillery and drones, and ground down a NATO-backed Ukraine despite unprecedented sanctions.
The real point is that russia is in a strategic trap and unless it breaks out of isolation it will be weak, which is exactly what Washington works to keep So it is poor leadership, got you. That is also the reason countries want to "integrate" with the west and not Russia. It is because the West believes in Win - Win arrangements and Russia only believes in Win - Lose relationships. You an see this when you compare Countries that joined with the west vs those that stayed with Russia after the fall of the USSR. Heck you can see this way back to west and east Germany as to why Germany doesn't want to "integrate" with Russia. It takes no manipulation from the west because they just say to the people would you prefer to live like polish people or Belarussian? And if you are not a oligarch the answer is clear.
We're talking about Russians. They think Poland hates Russia because of American meddling, not hundreds of years of bullying and WW2 invasion hand-in-hand with Nazi Germany. ;-)
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So I agree on some points with above replies to my posts and disagree with some others. Mostly because of opinion/interpretation. I don't see a reason to elaborate further (unless you want )because it's a matter of perspective, opinion.
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On November 22 2025 22:04 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2025 08:04 Legan wrote:
The level of disdain and even hate for Europe from Republicans is surprising. Is it coming from people who were outside of politics a decade ago, or is there some older faction behind it? Just people buying into Europe being a socialist dystopia?
The most surprising part to me is probably the total lack of competence among the old national security wing of Republicans. Every diplomatic action seems very poorly implemented. It is not that surprising that the deal is bad or has some hard-to-accept points. However, the way the proposal has been made, while ignoring the EU and Ukraine, and how completely it fails to make any demands on Russia, just makes the USA look weak and disinterested in its long-time allies. Working with Europe and Ukraine could help develop a framework for actions that soften the worst aspects of any peace deal.
At the same time, the isolationists still seem to demand that others just do as the USA demands. None of them seems to connect listening to allies and having allies act in a favourable way. This should probably be taken as a serious sign that demands for Greenland and Canada will be a real threat in the future. There seems to be an entitlement mentality among Republicans. I think the disdain and hate shouldn't be surprising. If you read oBlade's or xDaunt's posts in the US pol thread it shouldn't be a surprise that they and many other Republican voters dislike Europeans, especially the liberal kind that for some reason loves to discuss American internal politics and express their views in a very polite and balanced manner. The old Republican politicians aren't that hostile toward Europe. Even Russians are aware of that, as they kept bringing up that (manipulated) quote of the Republican Senator Lindsay Graham about dying Russians until attacking American politicians stopped being useful in their propaganda war. I doubt the old national security wing of Republicans played a big role in preparing the newest "peace" proposal. Unfortunately the Trumpist right is way closer to what many Americans think about Ukraine. They don't care about the country and the rest of Eastern Europe. They dislike Western Europeans. They respect Putin. They don't want their taxes spent on helping Ukraine or Europe. You may try to argue with them and say the US gains a lot from helping Ukraine and the rest of Western world, but many of them will disagree with you and say the average American doesn't gain anything from it and they don't care about military–industrial complex or other corporations benefitting from America's soft power.
Nope. The disdain for EU in the US has always been there. Obama said the EU is a free rider. He even called it out in the press couple of times. He did want an unites Europe, when he hoped UK staying.
He's just better at not splitting it in the face like trump does
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Russian Federation618 Posts
On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2025 12:16 spets1 wrote:On November 19 2025 04:49 Excludos wrote:On November 19 2025 04:24 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2025 00:24 hexhaven wrote:
[quote]
It's these... let's call them state-approved talking points that keep popping up. From NATO expansion to root causes to the thrust towards Kyiv was just a distraction to now Zelensky's legitimacy. We'll see new versions being trotted out every once in a while, and some of them even try to stick around. And whenever the nonsense they're peddling is debunked they always avoid addressing the rebuttals. Then after a few weeks or months they come back are are pushing the same crap, pretending it hadn't been already debunked. That's the most frustrating part. They come in here and shit all over the thread, disappears for without addressing anything substantial, then returns a month later to vomit some more of their dear leader's talking points. It's just consistent bad faith arguments and trolling Imo this is because there like 10 people in this thread stoking each other non stop. And won't listen to any arguments. No matter what is said you guys live in a parallel universe where the facts are the same but you interpret them completely opposite. Some of us a smart enough not to engage cos there's no point. Let bigons be bigots You are the one living in some parallel universe. We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ?
I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now.
About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest.
As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined.
While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so.
And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary.
Hope this answers your question.
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United States43800 Posts
You care about Russians so much that you want them to go to Ukraine and fight? Do you not know what happens to them there?
You declare that Ukrainians are not your pack and that their lives do not matter to you. But what of Ukrainians who your government has decided are legally Russians? Your government forces them to get Russian passports in the occupied territories but bombs playgrounds in the annexed territories that it does not yet occupy. Are these people Russians or not? Russia occupied Kherson and annexed it. The people living there were Russian under Russian law, no? Is the constitution wrong? Why is your government issuing all these Ukrainians Russian passports?
There’s a lot of confusion in your philosophy that you love Russians so much that you’ll send Russians to die in battle as long as they defeat the hated enemy, the Russians.
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On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2025 12:16 spets1 wrote:On November 19 2025 04:49 Excludos wrote:On November 19 2025 04:24 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
And whenever the nonsense they're peddling is debunked they always avoid addressing the rebuttals. Then after a few weeks or months they come back are are pushing the same crap, pretending it hadn't been already debunked. That's the most frustrating part. They come in here and shit all over the thread, disappears for without addressing anything substantial, then returns a month later to vomit some more of their dear leader's talking points. It's just consistent bad faith arguments and trolling Imo this is because there like 10 people in this thread stoking each other non stop. And won't listen to any arguments. No matter what is said you guys live in a parallel universe where the facts are the same but you interpret them completely opposite. Some of us a smart enough not to engage cos there's no point. Let bigons be bigots You are the one living in some parallel universe. We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question.
So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates.
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On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2025 12:16 spets1 wrote:On November 19 2025 04:49 Excludos wrote:On November 19 2025 04:24 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
And whenever the nonsense they're peddling is debunked they always avoid addressing the rebuttals. Then after a few weeks or months they come back are are pushing the same crap, pretending it hadn't been already debunked. That's the most frustrating part. They come in here and shit all over the thread, disappears for without addressing anything substantial, then returns a month later to vomit some more of their dear leader's talking points. It's just consistent bad faith arguments and trolling Imo this is because there like 10 people in this thread stoking each other non stop. And won't listen to any arguments. No matter what is said you guys live in a parallel universe where the facts are the same but you interpret them completely opposite. Some of us a smart enough not to engage cos there's no point. Let bigons be bigots You are the one living in some parallel universe. We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question.
« My people are worth more than all of the other people combined ».
That post is a masterclass on why nationalism is so effing awful and why people keep regularly murdering each other en masse. That’s how we got two world wars, and why the Russians are totally fine with their nation committing a historical massacre for the hubris of their little dictator.
Awful.
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Northern Ireland26498 Posts
On November 23 2025 12:41 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2025 22:04 Sent. wrote:On November 22 2025 08:04 Legan wrote:
The level of disdain and even hate for Europe from Republicans is surprising. Is it coming from people who were outside of politics a decade ago, or is there some older faction behind it? Just people buying into Europe being a socialist dystopia?
The most surprising part to me is probably the total lack of competence among the old national security wing of Republicans. Every diplomatic action seems very poorly implemented. It is not that surprising that the deal is bad or has some hard-to-accept points. However, the way the proposal has been made, while ignoring the EU and Ukraine, and how completely it fails to make any demands on Russia, just makes the USA look weak and disinterested in its long-time allies. Working with Europe and Ukraine could help develop a framework for actions that soften the worst aspects of any peace deal.
At the same time, the isolationists still seem to demand that others just do as the USA demands. None of them seems to connect listening to allies and having allies act in a favourable way. This should probably be taken as a serious sign that demands for Greenland and Canada will be a real threat in the future. There seems to be an entitlement mentality among Republicans. I think the disdain and hate shouldn't be surprising. If you read oBlade's or xDaunt's posts in the US pol thread it shouldn't be a surprise that they and many other Republican voters dislike Europeans, especially the liberal kind that for some reason loves to discuss American internal politics and express their views in a very polite and balanced manner. The old Republican politicians aren't that hostile toward Europe. Even Russians are aware of that, as they kept bringing up that (manipulated) quote of the Republican Senator Lindsay Graham about dying Russians until attacking American politicians stopped being useful in their propaganda war. I doubt the old national security wing of Republicans played a big role in preparing the newest "peace" proposal. Unfortunately the Trumpist right is way closer to what many Americans think about Ukraine. They don't care about the country and the rest of Eastern Europe. They dislike Western Europeans. They respect Putin. They don't want their taxes spent on helping Ukraine or Europe. You may try to argue with them and say the US gains a lot from helping Ukraine and the rest of Western world, but many of them will disagree with you and say the average American doesn't gain anything from it and they don't care about military–industrial complex or other corporations benefitting from America's soft power. Nope. The disdain for EU in the US has always been there. Obama said the EU is a free rider. He even called it out in the press couple of times. He did want an unites Europe, when he hoped UK staying. He's just better at not splitting it in the face like trump does
Obama, or senior military figures etc have said such things in that era. But it was generally framed in having a valued set of allies pulling their weight more.
It was never really outright disdainful of those historic alliances. Which I don’t think is something you can say of the Trump administration, or public figures associated with them.
You simply didn’t have Vice Presidents going on rambles about Europeans not having free speech, or a sitting member of a government agency claiming the British Prime Minister covered up paedophile rings (oh the irony). Or all other sorts of things.
In a crude sense, before when Europeans were admonished for whatever, it was generally with the goal of wanting strategic allies to be stronger, and hence more useful as allies. Today it is to make Europe weaker and less united, to take advantage of whatever holes open up.
It’s a pretty pronounced shift. Aside from matters of national/international security, there’s industry and regulation. One doesn’t have to be a conspiracy nut to link some of the tech bros or libertarian types that permeate this administration, and a weakening of a big regulatory bloc being disrupted as a desirous outcome.
A lot is correctly made of Russian efforts in this domain but plenty of American actors are up to their eyeballs in it.
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On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2025 12:16 spets1 wrote:On November 19 2025 04:49 Excludos wrote:
[quote]
That's the most frustrating part. They come in here and shit all over the thread, disappears for without addressing anything substantial, then returns a month later to vomit some more of their dear leader's talking points. It's just consistent bad faith arguments and trolling Imo this is because there like 10 people in this thread stoking each other non stop. And won't listen to any arguments. No matter what is said you guys live in a parallel universe where the facts are the same but you interpret them completely opposite. Some of us a smart enough not to engage cos there's no point. Let bigons be bigots You are the one living in some parallel universe. We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates.
Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'.
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United States43800 Posts
On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:On November 19 2025 12:16 spets1 wrote:
[quote]
Imo this is because there like 10 people in this thread stoking each other non stop. And won't listen to any arguments. No matter what is said you guys live in a parallel universe where the facts are the same but you interpret them completely opposite. Some of us a smart enough not to engage cos there's no point. Let bigons be bigots You are the one living in some parallel universe. We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'.
Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine.
Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time.
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On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
You are the one living in some parallel universe.
We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time.
Exactly. No one wants Russians to die. We want them at home, not in foreign countries murdering people. Well, i guess after 4 years of going into another country murdering and raping people there, at this point some bad will may have built up in some people. But even those people would probably be mostly fine with Russians just being at home.
It is just that Russians decide not to be at home, and are instead in a foreign country murdering and raping people. And at that point, it seems that if i have to choose between the life of a person murdering and raping innocents, and those innocents, choosing the innocents isn't that controversial either.
Also, it is not like Russian soldiers on the front line are going to read a thread on TL. I would assume most of them don't really speak English to begin with, and even if they did, they would mostly not frequent an English-language forum about Koreans playing an old video game.
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Northern Ireland26498 Posts
On November 24 2025 00:08 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2025 00:00 zeo wrote:On November 23 2025 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2025 17:35 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 06:29 blomsterjohn wrote:On November 20 2025 05:55 Ardias wrote:On November 20 2025 03:00 Excludos wrote:On November 20 2025 02:57 Ardias wrote:On November 19 2025 18:28 Artesimo wrote:On November 19 2025 18:08 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
You are the one living in some parallel universe.
We do listen to argument. You just ignore the counterarguments. Feel free to address my rebuttal to the NATO threat nonsense. As an avid ukraine supporter, I 100% have checked out of engaging much in discussions in this thread because I often felt like the people on my side are as worth engaging with as zeo is. Its a "us vs them" by now, so no shot at any fruitful discussion and I realised that I started to show a little of the same tendencies so I dipped out. Now I just check up every now and then when there is a new development to see if maybe someone posted some interesting source, but any kind of discussion quickly has me cringe at everyone involved and I move on. Well, this. Pretty sure you are not an Ukraine supporter... No, I'm not, but I would sign under every word from Russian side as well. Current discussion in general is a hateful shit throwing from both sides, which denies any possibility of good faith conversation, and at some point I felt like totally wasting my time writing those walls of text with dozen of carefully picked sources (due to total dismissal of any pro-Russian info here, which I tried to abide to) as I used to, which were taking me hours to do. Hence, while periodically checking the thread for common Westerner perspective (local established community gives better representation than random Reddit sub), in the last couple of years I've posted there only when I was beered and bored late in the evening, which isn't often. Artesimo is actually a person heavily missed from the thread, since even though we had different stances in general, I enjoyed our discussions on different matters of this war, where it felt that even we don't agree on something, we both are being heard at least. Which is why, probably, our feeling on the thread is mutual, despite being on opposite sides. While it's generally very much apparent that you (and some others on tl) support the Russian side of this war, it's not something thats normally spelled out this clear. So just to be clear you are supporting and essentially saying that Russia invading and starting a war with Ukraine is/was justified ? I don't want to write a wall of text about my beliefs, so I'll try to be brief. Yes, I think that Russia took the worst options to both 2014 and 2022 situations, though I indeed believe that in 2000-2010s Ukraine became a battleground between Western and Russian political and economic interests, just, I feel, this battle should have been fought with different means, rather than actual weapons, but that's milk under the bridge now. About justification - I do no believe that international (or internal, for that matter) actions of any (major, at least) country government may be dictated by morality, only by necessity, as it is percieved by said government. Was the 24.02.2022 violation of international law? Yes. Was Iraqi Freedom violation of international law? Also yes. And this can go on and on. International law, considering the lack of an authority really enforcing it, is still the law of the strongest. As for moral standpoint - do I feel that invasion is wrong from overall humane morality standpoint? Yes. Do I start to support Ukrainians due to this? No. Why? Because I'm Russian. and my people being en masse either content with or supportive of the government, supported such cause of action, including hundreds of thousands (or probably millions by now) volunteering (for different reasons, of course) into Russian armed forces, including few of my friends and acquaintances, some of whom I helped with bying gear for the war. Why? Because I care about them much more, than about all of the Ukraine combined, and even if I disagree with their choice, I respect it, because, again, I value them higher than all of Ukraine combined. While I'm always trying to be polite and respectful in interactions with people, I don't have too much empathy to humans in general (and don't expect it back, if you would bring that point). I care about my own pack, that being my family, friends, and, to lesser extent, Russian people, as is people of my language, culture and citizenship (meaning that I don't care if it's Tatar, Buryat, Yakut, or Nigerian if he wants to become Russian). If a foreigner falls into category of friends, then yes, I start to care about him as well. I have a good Ukrainian friend, and to him personally I owe any kind of support I would be able to provide when this is all over. To other Ukrainians or any other foreign people - I don't feel so. And also I don' look at Ukraine (or any other country for that matter, including Russia) through pink glasses, though not that made the war itself more necessary. Hope this answers your question. So your friends went to another country to murder innocent people for a paycheck and instead of dissuading them or cutting contact you support them in their murder. You and your friends are a bunch of moral degenerates. Whenever they get the feeling to ask the question 'are we the baddies?', they see posts from bloodthirsty sociopaths completely detached from reality - frothing at the mouth and wishing death upon them. They then think to themselves: 'yeah, maybe I shouldn't be a traitor to my own people'. Wishing death on them? We want Russians to go home and live long lives. You want Russians to rot unburied in Ukraine. Love for your people and country requires disagreeing with government policy from time to time.
Many Russians don’t seem to like doing that.
I’ve family and friends in the British army. I remember going to the Iraq war protests way back when. Like, if we got embroiled in a similarly daft conflict again, I’d feel even more against it. This time folks dear to me would be in the firing line.
I mean, it’s tricky to actively protest the conflict, for obvious reasons. But I’m pretty sure you’ll be alright for expressing some negative sentiment on a niche forum like TL or whatever, and some still can’t do it
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EPT
