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United States43251 Posts
On June 14 2023 02:59 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2023 02:18 KwarK wrote:On June 14 2023 01:43 iFU.spx wrote:On June 13 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
A pity we don’t have any fun videos from Wehrmacht troops on leave from the siege of Leningrad. We could all enjoy their funny anecdotes. Yea, but at least we have US troops fun videos from Iraq war. Whatabout… Do you think that excuses anything happening in Ukraine? If you want to condemn US excesses in Iraq make a topic for that. I doubt you’ll find many people to argue with though. Focus on context please: Ardias posted a video with interview of ru mobilized man, you replied with pitiness that we don't have fun videos from Wehrmacht troops on leave. I agreed. But to fulfill your frustration about lack of similar videos I reminded you about US troops videos from Iraq war. Nothing to condemn here or debate, and no one here trying to compare these wars.
I was clearly being sarcastic. I no more wish to hear from participants in the Russian genocide of Ukraine than I want to hear from members of the Wehrmacht. They can all go fuck themselves.
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Russian Federation372 Posts
On June 14 2023 03:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2023 02:59 iFU.spx wrote:On June 14 2023 02:18 KwarK wrote:On June 14 2023 01:43 iFU.spx wrote:On June 13 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
A pity we don’t have any fun videos from Wehrmacht troops on leave from the siege of Leningrad. We could all enjoy their funny anecdotes. Yea, but at least we have US troops fun videos from Iraq war. Whatabout… Do you think that excuses anything happening in Ukraine? If you want to condemn US excesses in Iraq make a topic for that. I doubt you’ll find many people to argue with though. Focus on context please: Ardias posted a video with interview of ru mobilized man, you replied with pitiness that we don't have fun videos from Wehrmacht troops on leave. I agreed. But to fulfill your frustration about lack of similar videos I reminded you about US troops videos from Iraq war. Nothing to condemn here or debate, and no one here trying to compare these wars. I was clearly being sarcastic. I no more wish to hear from participants in the Russian genocide of Ukraine than I want to hear from members of the Wehrmacht. They can all go fuck themselves.
Oh, seems I misread your message. I thought you were seeking additional information, but it turned out that you simply wanted to express your emotions.
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Update on the German armaments being used by Ukraine.
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On June 13 2023 22:46 Taelshin wrote:
@Kwark, Elroi or Magic Powers, Care to post anything rebutting his video? I understand calling out propaganda but give some counters maybe, even if that is propaganda.
Obviously I can't say for sure, but he seemed almost too good to be true. The young lawyer happily giving up his regular life to fight the enemies of the fatherland. And he also looks like a model etc. But what really made me suspicious was the way he talked about the war, as if it were a fun game between buddies. You'd think that 7 months of trench warfare would give you a different view of war and a different perspective on life, but he made it sound like a video game. If you go home for a short break from that, I would think that you would have other things to do than buying expensive sun glasses.
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On June 14 2023 05:00 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2023 22:46 Taelshin wrote:
@Kwark, Elroi or Magic Powers, Care to post anything rebutting his video? I understand calling out propaganda but give some counters maybe, even if that is propaganda. Obviously I can't say for sure, but he seemed almost too good to be true. The young lawyer happily giving up his regular life to fight the enemies of the fatherland. And he also looks like a model etc. But what really made me suspicious was the way he talked about the war, as if it were a fun game between buddies. You'd think that 7 months of trench warfare would give you a different view of war and a different perspective on life, but he made it sound like a video game. If you go home for a short break from that, I would think that you would have other things to do than buying expensive sun glasses.
And then contrast that with the countless videos of PoWs taken by Ukraine, who all look like broken men.
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The video is so obviously propaganda that I didn't even consider making an attempt at "debunking" it. The reason why I know it's propaganda is that I've seen enough real footage from the war. Being thrown into any single one of those scenarios could drive a man into insanity or depression within a matter of a few hours, let alone when there's no end in sight after days, weeks, or months.
Of course a few individuals like Andrey will come out just fine after spending a lot of time in this war. It would be strange to think that everyone responds in exactly the same way. The propaganda element is that he's the central focus of the report/interview. Russia doesn't want us to see the mentally broken men who've completely lost their spirits. That's what makes this propaganda.
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Russian Federation612 Posts
Will give a general reply to all people asking - the only propaganda thing about this video is that is showing a person with a pro-Russian views, and high production quality and that's it.
First of all, Andrey isn't that fine, though he tries to keep up the good attitude with some cynical humor (and this is exactly what you do while going through tough times to keep yor mind intact). While he's talking about his combat experience (particularly his first deployment), it's clearly seen that he is not comfortable remembering that.
Second, I myself know a bunch of combat veterans, from both current and previous wars Russia had - some closely, some distantly, some through internet. While these people probably have their issues, and I've personally observed couple of cases of PTSD - in general, they are normal people, going to work, spending time with families and having fun with friends. There is nothing odd about their particular behavior. Don't know if Russian people are coping better with this issue than the Western ones, or your strong anti-war position makes you to look at worst possible cases from your society, ignoring positive examples. Some people just get broken by experience, some struggle through it, some pass through stoically and some simply enjoy it.
Third (about comparing him with Russian POWs) - there is a big difference between a guy on a leave, who've also spent a lot of time on relatively quiet part of the front (he himself said that his first deployment was the hottest one), and people either on gunpoint after being recently shellshocked/surrounded with no hope of escape, or threatened/abused in captivity to tell on camera what their captors want. Though Ukrainian POWs do not look any better for the same reason, that's why I generally do not pay attention to what either sides' POWs tell on camera, they will tell what they are supposed to tell.
As for the things soldiers do on leave - they generally try to taste some of the civilian life before going back. Visit their family, hang out with friends, hit on girls, eat and drink stuff that they could not in the trenches, and by some stuff with the money earned. Does he supposed to go to church or psychiatrist, or what would US/German/British soldier would do in his place?
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Chances are also this is simply just something that will get looked at after the war is over.
Just because a plan won't get discussed in the near future during the war doesn't mean Ukraine can't/won't join after the war is over.
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On June 14 2023 07:41 Ardias wrote:
Will give a general reply to all people asking - the only propaganda thing about this video is that is showing a person with a pro-Russian views, and high production quality and that's it.
First of all, Andrey isn't that fine, though he tries to keep up the good attitude with some cynical humor (and this is exactly what you do while going through tough times to keep yor mind intact). While he's talking about his combat experience (particularly his first deployment), it's clearly seen that he is not comfortable remembering that.
Second, I myself know a bunch of combat veterans, from both current and previous wars Russia had - some closely, some distantly, some through internet. While these people probably have their issues, and I've personally observed couple of cases of PTSD - in general, they are normal people, going to work, spending time with families and having fun with friends. There is nothing odd about their particular behavior. Don't know if Russian people are coping better with this issue than the Western ones, or your strong anti-war position makes you to look at worst possible cases from your society, ignoring positive examples. Some people just get broken by experience, some struggle through it, some pass through stoically and some simply enjoy it.
Third (about comparing him with Russian POWs) - there is a big difference between a guy on a leave, who've also spent a lot of time on relatively quiet part of the front (he himself said that his first deployment was the hottest one), and people either on gunpoint after being recently shellshocked/surrounded with no hope of escape, or threatened/abused in captivity to tell on camera what their captors want. Though Ukrainian POWs do not look any better for the same reason, that's why I generally do not pay attention to what either sides' POWs tell on camera, they will tell what they are supposed to tell.
As for the things soldiers do on leave - they generally try to taste some of the civilian life before going back. Visit their family, hang out with friends, hit on girls, eat and drink stuff that they could not in the trenches, and by some stuff with the money earned. Does he supposed to go to church or psychiatrist, or what would US/German/British soldier would do in his place?
We Austrians wouldn't just shrug it off if our soldiers were receiving their paycheck three months delayed and had to buy their own fighting equipment and - worst of all - were sent directly into a heavy fighting zone without being specially trained for it and without prior combat experience. We'd bombard the news stations with information and they'd very gladly push it out to the people until everyone and their dog knows about it. We'd draw comparisons to Roman slaves who were probably treated better than this.
In Russia this literally can't happen. Mistreatment and mismanagement of their soldiers will continue no matter what. The propaganda aspect is that in Russia this is just another regular day in Andrey's life, while in Austria people would be marching the streets and heads would be rolling.
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For Russians that don't understand the meaning of living under a dictature and not.
I can go to any public place and support Russian war and have 0 consequences appart from looking like a fool.
A Russian cannot go to a public place and say anything against the war.
You guys need to learn to protect your brain from whataboutism. Another bad thing does not make your thing good, you just show how biased you are at picking your point of view. Seeing anything bad made by another army the way to say that what your army is doing is good can make anyone look like a fool.
Yet again, only Russians that have that bias feel free to write about it publicly.
The reason is simple. Russians against the war have nothing to win from publicly speaking about the war (even here), yet those speaking for the war have nothing to lose as well. Even if the dictatorship falls, usually the only way to rebuild a country is to pardon everyone and pretend for 50 years no one was responsible for anything.
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Literally the opening of the article
Ukraine will not be offered a timeline with specific dates by which it can join Nato at its summit in Vilnius next month but instead may be offered a shorter route when an offer of membership is made No shit they will not be given specific dates, no one can give specific dates because no one knows when this war will end, and it ending is a primary requirement to joining NATO. You can't be in an active war and join NATO, not Ukraine not any other country.
I don't think this means anything.
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Ukraine was looking for symbolic schedule and not a concrete one.
For example membership action plan was often mentioned and is now likely off the table.
So I think it's a very big deal, effectively Russia gets a veto in the process and strategically for Putin the war achieved at least that one aim.
Worse then that, the idea that Ukraine can deter Russia from another invasion is not very credible either.
If all the western deliveries have failed to force Russian withdrawal then why should Ukraine fare better in the future.
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On June 14 2023 19:15 pmp10 wrote:
Ukraine was looking for symbolic schedule and not a concrete one.
For example membership action plan was often mentioned and is now likely off the table.
So I think it's a very big deal, effectively Russia gets a veto in the process and strategically for Putin the war achieved at least that one aim.
Worse then that, the idea that Ukraine can deter Russia from another invasion is not very credible either.
If all the western deliveries have failed to force Russian withdrawal then why should Ukraine fare better in the future. This isn't new. The Crimea invasion, the 'rebellion' in Donbass. It all worked to prevent Ukraine from being able to join NATO.
And the path to an end is still the same, either Russia decides to leave or they get put 6 feet under.
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On June 14 2023 19:15 pmp10 wrote:
Worse then that, the idea that Ukraine can deter Russia from another invasion is not very credible either.
If all the western deliveries have failed to force Russian withdrawal then why should Ukraine fare better in the future.
How is it not credible that Ukraine can deter Russia? I think Ukraine will be very credible in the future to stop a Russian invasion and depending on the outcome of this war, I think this is Russias only chance to seize Ukraine, it's not going to happen in a future war, and in this war the best they can hope for is to keep some territory they gained at the start
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On June 14 2023 20:32 sertas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2023 19:15 pmp10 wrote:
Worse then that, the idea that Ukraine can deter Russia from another invasion is not very credible either.
If all the western deliveries have failed to force Russian withdrawal then why should Ukraine fare better in the future. How is it not credible that Ukraine can deter Russia? I think Ukraine will be very credible in the future to stop a Russian invasion and depending on the outcome of this war, I think this is Russias only chance to seize Ukraine, it's not going to happen in a future war, and in this war the best they can hope for is to keep some territory they gained at the start
Speculation at the start was that one of the principal reasons for invading was to secure the Kakhova Dam and thus the fresh water supply for Crimea, they have already failed miserably, and Crimean people are doomed to decades of insecurity over fresh water regardless of the outcome of this war.
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On June 14 2023 20:32 sertas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2023 19:15 pmp10 wrote:
Worse then that, the idea that Ukraine can deter Russia from another invasion is not very credible either.
If all the western deliveries have failed to force Russian withdrawal then why should Ukraine fare better in the future. How is it not credible that Ukraine can deter Russia? I think Ukraine will be very credible in the future to stop a Russian invasion and depending on the outcome of this war, I think this is Russias only chance to seize Ukraine, it's not going to happen in a future war, and in this war the best they can hope for is to keep some territory they gained at the start
Ukraine was pretty well armed for a poor country and see what happened.
If the war was to freeze tomorrow Ukraine would have lost 10-15% of territory (with major strategic value), about 20% of population to migration (and Russia) and some 30-40% of economy.
They can hardly survive a repeat.
As long as this war is a strategic success for Russia they have good reasons to try again.
Russia doesn't need to conquer all of Ukraine as long as it can reduce it to a failed state.
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On June 14 2023 21:20 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2023 20:32 sertas wrote:On June 14 2023 19:15 pmp10 wrote:
Worse then that, the idea that Ukraine can deter Russia from another invasion is not very credible either.
If all the western deliveries have failed to force Russian withdrawal then why should Ukraine fare better in the future. How is it not credible that Ukraine can deter Russia? I think Ukraine will be very credible in the future to stop a Russian invasion and depending on the outcome of this war, I think this is Russias only chance to seize Ukraine, it's not going to happen in a future war, and in this war the best they can hope for is to keep some territory they gained at the start Ukraine was pretty well armed for a poor country and see what happened. If the war was to freeze tomorrow Ukraine would have lost 10-15% of territory (with major strategic value), about 20% of population to migration (and Russia) and some 30-40% of economy. They can hardly survive a repeat. As long as this war is a strategic success for Russia they have good reasons to try again. Russia doesn't need to conquer all of Ukraine as long as it can reduce it to a failed state.
What? Russia's whole purpose for invading Ukraine proper was to take over the government in order to reinstate a puppet government loyal to Moscow. Not only did they fail to achieve that, they have united Europe behind Ukraine, they've lost nearly 200k troops, caused tens of millions to flee their own country to avoid the draft, hundreds of billions of dollars of fuel money gained are now gone. Not to mention military hardware. Oh and they destroyed the only source of fresh water to Crimea.... making the scenario of holding it that much harder.
The strategic success option was lost over a year ago when they had to retreat from Kyiv. Their only option for such a scenario was in 2014.
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On June 14 2023 21:20 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2023 20:32 sertas wrote:On June 14 2023 19:15 pmp10 wrote:
Worse then that, the idea that Ukraine can deter Russia from another invasion is not very credible either.
If all the western deliveries have failed to force Russian withdrawal then why should Ukraine fare better in the future. How is it not credible that Ukraine can deter Russia? I think Ukraine will be very credible in the future to stop a Russian invasion and depending on the outcome of this war, I think this is Russias only chance to seize Ukraine, it's not going to happen in a future war, and in this war the best they can hope for is to keep some territory they gained at the start Ukraine was pretty well armed for a poor country and see what happened. If the war was to freeze tomorrow Ukraine would have lost 10-15% of territory (with major strategic value), about 20% of population to migration (and Russia) and some 30-40% of economy. They can hardly survive a repeat. As long as this war is a strategic success for Russia they have good reasons to try again. Russia doesn't need to conquer all of Ukraine as long as it can reduce it to a failed state.
The problem with "if the war would freeze tomorrow" is that it's as likely as hell freezing over tomorrow. Basing your analysis of 'what would happen in the future' on something that has exactly a 0% chance of happening isn't the most logical way of looking at this.
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EPT
